So i envision then doing a mimic of your current character sheet, minus 4 artifcats, on its own "PVP tab" where it would be the "PVP version" of yourself. The PVP version that got loaded into a domination map - instead of the current version with w.e you had equipped.
So it would be akin to a "layout" if you will, but having it on its own tab, would allow you to see your stats without all the boons, etc. So it would allow you to prep for PVP better.
Make sense?
Works for me. MimicKing had already noted they were working on the ability to have multiple loadout sheets, If I understood him correctly, in the QA Livestream. So that would fit in with your proposal.
Yeah I heard that too. I just doubt it will actually fix anything since you still have all the issues I listed prior. I am curious to see what they come up with, but even if they allowed for 2 "boon loadouts" I still dont think it would fix anything. You will still have players who dont have all the boons, who are at a big disadvantage, and the PVE players likely wont care and if they DO pvp, their build still (even with dual layout) wont be optimzied for PVP.
The other side benefit or boon removal, is that PVP becomes much easier to balance around as well. With that power creep gone PVP will be more about class powers and items, not crazy stat stacking builds.
I have spent tens of hours discussing with former players and current players about the problems with the game, what would fix it, what would get players to come back, and it keeps coming back to the same thing. Removal of power creep/power gap/and stat allocation in PVP. Create a "vanilla" PVP that will then be somewhat changeless with each module that releases new boons that are now "optional" where as the gear would be something to consider farming for PVP.
Many games do this type of thing, I think one of the most successful at doing this "type" of this was Destiny. Where you had a more vanilla "equalized" PVP field, where lvl and gear DID matter, but not a CRAZY amount, but for PVE purposes alot more things mattered about gear/stats. In the same way, Neverwinter could do the same thing with the boon structure. Anyone could be "competitive" in PVP however if you want to excel in PVE you will need to do all the campaigns and get all the boons.
- Between bring 500 player into pvp (example) or satisfy only 50 BiS players (example again), i'll say "i will not miss you at all a single/little bit, trolls".
Quoting this to really highlight this. The only hope for PVP long term is to try and create an environment where more new players, more PVE players are given more incentive to PVP. That PVP is not a "stomping ground" for the elite BIS players (like myself) to come in and crush a full team of players.
Thinking back to module 0,1 or 2 days. There has always been a discrepancy in gear between BIS and "PUGs" however that gear gap is nowhere near as bad as it is today. I remember if I ever would 3v1, that was a BIG deal. Even a 2v1 was pretty tough, because the power gap between a BIS player and the "average" player was big but not THAT much where I could 2v1 or 3v1 with ease but TODAY you see that happen all the time. 1 BIS player can just crush 3,4,5 players.... The culprit is the power creep (stat allocation) available. Its also not just the stats but the ability (because of the stats available) to invest in BOTH offensive and defensive capabilities.
The ONLY solution I see is to cut the stat allocation available for PVP and the easiest way to make this the most friendly would be to remove the boons, removes 13k+ stats or more.... (NOT including SH boons).
If Cryptic wants to save the game. They need to answer this question. The answer seems very simple to me. Doing a "solo Q" wont help. Trying to make pvp gear more accessible wont help frankly as there is still too much of a stat discrepancy between PVe/PVP builds.
The only efficient/easy way to encourage more of the population to PVP is to cut the allowed stats via boons. Which makes the power gap MUCH MUCH smaller than it is now, more like modules 0-2 where "average" players actually stand a CHANCE against better geared players.
PVP is what makes or breaks MMO games. When you get tired of killing the same boss over and over and grinding over and over, you want to use your new gear to kill other players. I tried getting into pvp right away, before I even hit 70. It was OK at best. Long que times, then a 50/50 chance of getting set up against a premade group that you were lucky to get 1 kill against. Then the rewards for putting up with that? BLEH at best. This PVP has been broken so long, I don't think it will get fixed. Sadly, people leave in droves after experiencing this and not wanting to grind day in and day out. I hope they fix some things soon and I mean soon. Or the premades and hardcore players will have no one to roll over. Then they will have no reason to put more money into the game. GG bye bye
PVP is what makes or breaks MMO games. When you get tired of killing the same boss over and over and grinding over and over, you want to use your new gear to kill other players. I tried getting into pvp right away, before I even hit 70. It was OK at best. Long que times, then a 50/50 chance of getting set up against a premade group that you were lucky to get 1 kill against. Then the rewards for putting up with that? BLEH at best. This PVP has been broken so long, I don't think it will get fixed. Sadly, people leave in droves after experiencing this and not wanting to grind day in and day out. I hope they fix some things soon and I mean soon.
I agree. That said there is a strong PVE crowd but through the years of playing this game I did develop relationships with some of the DEVs and was told from a DEV that a large majority of their revenue came from PVP.
I hope you are wrong, and I hope I am wrong that PVP will likely not get fixed. Thats why I am trying so hard to discuss this issue and push this post so it gets seen by the DEV team and atleast discussed. I really believe it will be a HUGE relief to the game. Not only bring more of the population into PVP but it also alleviates what you just said "not wanting to grind day in and day out" - This is a common theme I get when I get in Discord/Vent/TS and talk with players. "What you doing?" I ask. "Dailies" I get in response. To MANY NW players the word "Daily" just sends chills down their spine. Its a Chore, its work, its NOT fun anymore. Removing Boons from PVP, removes the NEED to do these dailies for PVP players. Which means more time in game spent PLAYING the game, spent PVPing. Less dailies. Everyone wins.
Or the premades and hardcore players will have no one to roll over. Then they will have no reason to put more money into the game. GG bye bye
This is already happening. IMO Cryptic went too far in trying to monetize power so much. MANY successful F2P games have opted for a more "pay for cosmetic" approach. NW is one of the ones that you can pay for power, which was fantastic at first when it was a new game, and had TONS of players.... But the player base is sick of the business model. Every module extremely expensive gear becomes obsolete, requires millions of AD for some new "must have item" and rather than the BIS items DROPPING from content, like dungeon runs, its instead something you need to grind your butt off for months, or just pay and have it earlier. Its a very alt UNFRIENDLY model, which is what kills people's desire to play.
Again, back to the point though, step 1 is making PVP more fun for ALL players. The only way to do this, is remove "PVE boons" from PVP. They can keep in the SH boons and the PVP campaign boons in PVP but remove all the module boons from PVP!
0
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
Some of you say that people invested too much in strongholds boons for them to be removed from pvp. Guess what, I invested more into making all my artifacts that have regeneration mythic. Stacking tons of regeneration to do well in pvp combat.
Then one day regeneration was changed to no longer work in combat....
Was I upset... hell yes I was. Did I complain.. yes even made youtube videos about it. Was I forced to adapt... yes I went full lifesteal.
Wasted all my time effort and money on something that was removed/changed.
Now strongholds boons are up to be removed/nerfed.
For the sake of balance.... do it.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
PVP is what makes or breaks MMO games. When you get tired of killing the same boss over and over and grinding over and over, you want to use your new gear to kill other players. I tried getting into pvp right away, before I even hit 70. It was OK at best. Long que times, then a 50/50 chance of getting set up against a premade group that you were lucky to get 1 kill against. Then the rewards for putting up with that? BLEH at best. This PVP has been broken so long, I don't think it will get fixed. Sadly, people leave in droves after experiencing this and not wanting to grind day in and day out. I hope they fix some things soon and I mean soon.
I agree. That said there is a strong PVE crowd but through the years of playing this game I did develop relationships with some of the DEVs and was told from a DEV that a large majority of their revenue came from PVP.
I hope you are wrong, and I hope I am wrong that PVP will likely not get fixed. Thats why I am trying so hard to discuss this issue and push this post so it gets seen by the DEV team and atleast discussed. I really believe it will be a HUGE relief to the game. Not only bring more of the population into PVP but it also alleviates what you just said "not wanting to grind day in and day out" - This is a common theme I get when I get in Discord/Vent/TS and talk with players. "What you doing?" I ask. "Dailies" I get in response. To MANY NW players the word "Daily" just sends chills down their spine. Its a Chore, its work, its NOT fun anymore. Removing Boons from PVP, removes the NEED to do these dailies for PVP players. Which means more time in game spent PLAYING the game, spent PVPing. Less dailies. Everyone wins.
Or the premades and hardcore players will have no one to roll over. Then they will have no reason to put more money into the game. GG bye bye
This is already happening. IMO Cryptic went too far in trying to monetize power so much. MANY successful F2P games have opted for a more "pay for cosmetic" approach. NW is one of the ones that you can pay for power, which was fantastic at first when it was a new game, and had TONS of players.... But the player base is sick of the business model. Every module extremely expensive gear becomes obsolete, requires millions of AD for some new "must have item" and rather than the BIS items DROPPING from content, like dungeon runs, its instead something you need to grind your butt off for months, or just pay and have it earlier. Its a very alt UNFRIENDLY model, which is what kills people's desire to play.
Again, back to the point though, step 1 is making PVP more fun for ALL players. The only way to do this, is remove "PVE boons" from PVP. They can keep in the SH boons and the PVP campaign boons in PVP but remove all the module boons from PVP!
I agree with the PVE. There is a lot of grinding, but it is still fun for me. I will stay with this game until something else comes out. I may even play it then as well, if they can do something to help players that don't want to spend hundreds of dollars or spend every waking hour of the day grinding, to get the gear they need.
I will stay with this game until something else comes out. I may even play it then as well, if they can do something to help players that don't want to spend hundreds of dollars or spend every waking hour of the day grinding, to get the gear they need.
This is exactly my point. PVP focused players dont want to HAVE to spend every day farming dailies or boons or campaigns to PVP. Neither to PVE players.
The game has come a LONG way from its initial intent... I dont recall where but I remember reading an interview about D&D and what makes it fun and what makes it as a video game fun. Its the premise of "get some friends together, and go kill a dragon" That is why this game was fun in the first place. You had your character that progressed in a very appealing combat/action/MMO platform that had beauty in its simplicity. I would get online, get a few buddies and we would Que up for PVP or run a dungeon for some loot. That was my play experience.
Shortly after the "modules" came out. It completely changed. Log in and FIRST, I must do my dailies so I can progress. I HAVE to do these to remain competitive in PVP. After that, I could PVP second and then if I felt up for it, dungeon run.
As more and more modules progressed. The work load on dailies and daily farming become more and more. With the SH release, it was "do your HEs for influence!" "Do your daily quests for shards and what not!" I became a chore very quickly and literally killed my desire to play the game. But atleast I had PVP! Soon, however, that ended up not even being fun because my gear gap was SO much higher than the average player, it wasnt even fun anymore killing an average player, because it involved zero skill.
Anyways, back to my point. Neverwinter needs to get back to its roots. What made it successful. Its needs to re-focus on making PVP an easier platform to be competitive in for new and old players alike. remove this "NEED" to do daily quests and what not, by removing boons, this accomplishes that by making PVE campaigns an "optional" thing for PVP focused players.
Yes, you understood it totally right. But i still think that SH boons are "unfair" for a really big population of the server, even if some players grinded like madmen to get those boons, and will be if they stay on PvP. So, that's why i think it's FAR better to bring 500 new players into PvP rather than making happy just 50 players because "we grinded like madmen for SH boons!!!". As a side note, I usually don't answer back to those players (the ones saying "i worked hard to get my boons" as if we didn't worked hard at all to get our boons, our gear, and so on...) because, for me, they are just trolls whose enjoy being over/above the "averange" PvP player. For me, those players are like those trolls on LoL who are "smurfing" on bronze/silver because on plat/dia can't do a single good thing at all.
Yeah, I just dont see Cryptic going "back" on something this big... Thats the only reason I changed my position. Not that I think it IS fair. But to go back to your point. I agree it would be better to bring 500+ new players into the PVP scene and lose 50 BIS players over this change.
But here is where I think the middle ground lies. I am of the opinion, if they remove SH boons from PVP MORE current PVPers and players quit the game, than if you just removed PVE boons. The effect will be very similar as far as the impact on the game and the balancing out it accomplishes. |
Either way, they need to make PVP more of a "side benefit" to the game, by making it less gear dependent, less item dependent, less boon dependent so more players of all gear levels can enjoy it. I think of Destiny and how they accomplished this with a "PVE stat" on every item. So a low level gun, could be nearly as good as a high level gun, but for PVE purposes, they were VASTLY different since the gun had an "attack power" stat I recall that only modified PVE damage where PVP damage was normalized based on the guns subtype...
In the same way, they could make MANY items in NW (mounts for example) only provide their benefits in PVE. They could make (as this post proposes) all the campaign boons PVE only. They could make all the artifact equipment bonuses PVE only. Everything like that, would be a HUGE positive for PVP and level the playing field SO much more. I DONT think completely standardizing gear is necessary. The reason I loved NW was because its RPG aspect to building a character and then using him in PVP against others, but its gone too far now where unless you farm everyday, belong to a BIS Stronghold, have all the boons, artifacts, artifact equipment, etc you cant be competitive at all.
They need to remove all these advantages from PVP and make them PVE only bonuses - like Destiny does - to remove the "gear gap" from PVP while still retaining SOME advantage that gear does provide and options that gear does provide.
Solo que just needs to be truly solo que with no chance of cheating the system to put you on your friends, guildmates or alliance members teams. Truly random and it will work.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
A solo q must be free of SH boons and mounts. There has to be a space in PVP for the non-BIS who can't afford lockbox mounts and are un-guilded. If players quit the game cuz they can't always dominate every mode by paying money, the game is better off without them.
I would say that Campaign boons are more of an impact than SH boons which are BOTH more of an impact then mount bonuses. Remove campaign boons first, then see the impact. If needed I am 100% onboard with removing both SH bonuses and mount bonuses as well, but when I first proposed this months ago, it was met with a TON of pushback from the community, so I revised it to just be the BIGGEST boon impact: PVE campaign boons.
Noone is saying players will quit because they cant dominate, though that will likely happen to some SMALL extent, but the majority of BIS players I know would gladly love a more level playing field. Most BIS players are frankly bored out of their minds right now.
class="Quote" rel="trentbail21">Solo que just needs to be truly solo que with no chance of cheating the system to put you on your friends, guildmates or alliance members teams. Truly random and it will work. This wont solve a thing. The problem ISNT queing with your friends. To be honest man, it doesnt sound like you really understand PVP that much. The biggest problem is the gear gap issue. 1 player can wreck and entire team of players. So having this solo Q thing wont fix anything without FIRST addressing he gear gap - caused from PVE boons.
Also, you are missing a fundamental aspect of playing MMOs. Its to play with your friends. Removing the ability to play PVP with your friends will further HURT the community. Sure it will be "great" for a short time but all it is is a bandaid that doesnt address any of the core problems and only makes further restrictions on the game that will ultimately lead to its failure (if its not already at failure now)
We need to first address the gear gap issues - caused by boons. Then if further needed they can remove SH boons and mount bonuses as well, THEN you will have a much more balanced PVP from the aspect of gear. That will solve alot of issues. THEN you have the ability to introduce a real matchmaking system, which should work to weed out premades vs non premades and I think you will see this "solo Q only" thing resolve itself where you wouldnt need to put restrictions on PVP Queing.
This wont solve a thing. The problem ISNT queing with your friends. To be honest man, it doesnt sound like you really understand PVP that much. The biggest problem is the gear gap issue. 1 player can wreck and entire team of players. So having this solo Q thing wont fix anything without FIRST addressing he gear gap - caused from PVE boons.
Did you really just talk to me like that? WOW. I won't go any further simply because if I do I'll get my post deleted but seriously man you should stop yourself you just went too far.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
Every single player can easily get all PVE boons. They all can't get lvl 10 SH boons and orange mounts. Removing PVE boons is a non-starter and changes nothing. It is like doing nothing. I have no clue who you think does not have all of the PVE boons. Bots?
If they DO ANYTHING to negate stats my suggestion would be to keep PVE boons at full value and maybe to half SH boons in domination and solo que but keep them full value in SH pvp.
But this is just my humble opinion im just an xbox player trying to get my opinion out.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
Something has to be done. Additional queues solved nothing because rather than use the normal q to make sync matches or to fight in a near pug-free queue, PVP guilds just farmed the solo and duo queue events like entitled masochists. They must be forced to play against like-geared players.
Im sure if they sat down and looked at im they could fix the solo que right. but im not sure they will. we will have to wait and see.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
0
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
Cryptic can still introduce new weapons and armor without creating massive power creep.
If we have a minimum of 2 more weapon set's that enter game with more power than the last issued, this game has basically sealed it's fate.
New weapons can be issued with the same damage as old but different set bonuses without killing the game.
Same goes with armor sets.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
@defiantone99 said: "Something has to be done. Additional queues solved nothing because rather than use the normal q to make sync matches or to fight in a near pug-free queue, PVP guilds just farmed the solo and duo queue events like entitled masochists. They must be forced to play against like-geared players."
Entitled masochists. Really. They were PVP events. We are PVPers. It would sound as ridiculous if I talked about newb pugs who Qd in droves for the solo and Duo events.
How dare those low IL pugs Q solo during the event and screw it up for the rest of us BIS players.
My patience with IL whiners is growing thin. Had you ever attempted anything except pug PVP, had you ever actually tried to Sync Qs with or without these events you wouldn't make such ridiculously assumptive statements.
We ask for a Premade lobby for a reason. If you had ever spent an hour and a half trying to get a sync Q you might understand, but no, it's much easier to assume and insult.
There is no such thing as a "pug free Q" during events or in regular Q. When cryptic finally listens to us and gives us the lobby we've been asking for mods to get, we will spend the majority of our time doing inhouses. However, it will never keep us out of other types of PVP. Get used to it man.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Every single player can easily get all PVE boons. They all can't get lvl 10 SH boons and orange mounts. Removing PVE boons is a non-starter and changes nothing. It is like doing nothing. Only bots would have trouble getting PVE boons. The core issue is pug-stompers. The only way to get rid of pug-stompers is to create matchmaking and having a mode free of P2W advantages just for lowbies and pugs. Your original ideas were much better.
Man, this is where I think the fallacy lies though. Yes I agree players can ALL get the PVE boons 100% with enough farming. I am not disagreeing with you but this doesnt go deep enough. This was something that was tossed around in defense of the boons however it falls short and here is why.
The majority of the player base do not get these boons for PVP. They are not optimizing their stats around PVP, but rather PVE. How many players are actually taking endless consumption and stacking lifesteal in their boons? Only PVP focused players. The impact all the lifesteal has combined with endless consumption - just those FEW boons alone makes a massive massive massive difference in PVP.
I go back to this "V" I have been talking about. On the left you have PVE builds, on the right, PVP. As you start at the bottom and move up, it shows that with more and more allowable stats, you create bigger and bigger gaps between the player base BECAUSE the "ideal" stats are different.
People generally will take crit in their boons, as another example, as opposed to arp or power, or deflect. You see the problem?
The problem is NOT "total stats" Everyone has VERY similar "total" stats. Its how those stats are used that make the power gap problem in PVP.
Even taking the "BIS" PVE players, will all the boons and even maxed SH boons, and even lets assume they do throw on Lions PVP gear. They wont stand a CHANCE because they are specced too offensively. They dont have Endless, they dont stack lifesteal/HP/deflect all the defensive survival stats FROM PVE boons that make them more sustainable and therefore easy to clear off a node or burst down, and die. No contest.
Again, the problem is NOT "total stats" for players but its "ideal" stats COMBINED with the current allowable stats. There is no way to bridge the gap.
This is also why SH boons are LESS impactful than PVE boons. Because PVP and PVE players alike all have "access" to generally the same stats, just in different amounts. Going from a 20k HP boon to a 32k HP boon IS a big deal, sure, I am not denying it creates an advantage, but its not as big of a deal as that SAME player ALSO getting an extra 5-10% Lifesteal, few extra thousand ARP, some deflect, endless consumption (which doubles your lifesteal) - ALL things awarded by PVE boons that most players who are either new, or PVE focused DO NOT get. Those are a bigger difference.
PVE boons are a HUGE part of the problem. If they were removed, that is thousands upon thousands of PVP focused stats the PVP players would LOSE, and the PVE players only lose PVE focused stats - which means their loss is MINIMAL IN PVP, where as the loss to PVP players is MASSIVE to their impact in PVP.
Dont get me wrong, ive said it over and over, SH boons and Mount bonuses are ALSO huge impacts and I would be 100% behind removing them also, I just dont think thats as feasible seeing as Cryptics big "focus" has been on these strongholds NOR do I think SH boons impact PVP as much as PVE boons do, for the above reasons. Sure a few extra thousand ARP does add up, or a few extra HP adds up, but its much less an impact as a PVPer going FULL PVP focused "PVE boons" over his PVE counter part who goes full PVE focus on his PVE boons.
"PvP guilds farmed the solo and duo queue event, like masochists"
Yes, we are PvPers, we play PvP. Are we not allowed to participate in PvP events?
This is exactly right and why I say that the issue is GEAR GAP and not a solo Q or duo Q event. The gear gap is far too large, where if you have a full team of 5x 3k Ilevel players on 1 team, and another team with 4x 2.5k Ilevel players and 1 4.3K Ilevel player guess who wins? The team with the 4k+ player because he can 3v1 or 4v1 people on a node.
The POWER that his boons AND SH boons AND mounts AND items gives him literally makes hi 3-4x as strong as someone else. If you MERELY just removed the PVE boons, he could likely still take on more than 1 player, but he wouldnt be able to SUSTAIN himself versus 4 players like he can now with all his boons. Because with the PVE boons, it enables players to have their cake and eat it too. They can have high defensive stats AND still put out good damage, where the PVE players dont get much damage advantage because crits are generally worthless in PVP, and they have NO sustain.
removing PVE boons, removes PVP players sustain, and if they want that sustain BACK, it would be at the loss of damage. Thus fixing SOME of the issue. Not just that, but SH boons are guild/alliance wide MEANING its a much more friendly alt game (PVP) than it is now - requiring each alt you play to ALSO do his daily campaign farming on all his or her alts to stay competitive and get these boons. Think of the NEW player who comes to the game and has to farm for hours ALL the campaign boon quests and THEN wants to make an alt too. The sheer work and time requires is overwhelming! Or put yourself in the shoes of players who have retired who have thought about coming back? If they missed 3 modules that now becomes hours of work EVERY DAY to just get back to being competitive in PVP. Its a HUGE turn off to those players. I know, because I've talked to A LOT of players who have quit and its the biggest barrier to them coming back to play the game.
Yes, there are still OTHER issues, like Wheel, the new weapons that are WAY better than anything else, Mounts, etc. But removal of PVE boons is a HUGE first step in fixing the gear gap problem. Mount bonuses would be (IMO) the next thing to remove from PVP as they offer another 4k+ stats or sometimes some of the effects are even better than sheer stats... But thats another thing for another time.
My terrible 2c from an avid pvper but newcomer to neverwinter.
Create a queue called "Balanced Domination" or something where several things happens at once.
*Item level is set to 3000 (or some other arbitrary number)and all gear is nerfed/buffed to reach that. This would include enchants and whatever else. Maybe all enchants set to rank 8 & normal versions or something.
*Artifacts limited to primary or removed altogether. If limited then set to epic version. Everyone can get at least their class artifact. If you play more you get more choices for that slot.
*Stronghold boons removed or given to everyone in the match. Probably easier to just remove it.
*Campaign boons I feel like aren't that op, give flavor, and aren't super hard to get. Some classes need the sustain whereas others could go more glass cannon since everyone will be working at the same item level.
*Mount stuff probably easier to remove but could also make epic version (+2k stats) baseline. Give those without epic mounts an average buff (+500power/+500defense/+500armor pen/+500recovery) or something. Those with more epic mounts can choose their buff. Most people will say insignia stuff removed and that is an option. What I would like to see though is more variety and, if needed, higher internal cooldowns.
From there you could play with how to implement it. Solo, duo, weekly, permanent or whatever.
My terrible 2c from an avid pvper but newcomer to neverwinter.
@metikulous Cheers man! Thanks for posting your thoughts. I do have some of my own based on what you said and it seems to me that you are more an advocate of equalizing or normalizing the gear quite a bit. I dont think that a bad thing at all, but I do question the ease in which Cryptic could do this. People have mentioned to have gear normalized and I think you bring up some good points.
Create a queue called "Balanced Domination" or something where several things happens at once.
| I dont think its a good idea to create a separate que. Already que times can be long and the PVP population isnt large enough to start splitting Ques like this. If you retain the old(current) que with all the items. Most of the players who have all the BIS gear will be reluctant to "step down" to a lower level to equalize gear. The response is often "Ive worked hard for this, why should I give it up". Im not saying its a valid argument, but that is just what they say. So I dont think splitting Ques and population even more is the BEST solution IMO. If NW had 100k players that could work just fine, but I think it only has a few thousand last I checked.
*Item level is set to 3000 (or some other arbitrary number)and all gear is nerfed/buffed to reach that. This would include enchants and whatever else. Maybe all enchants set to rank 8 & normal versions or something.
Im not quite sure how this would be implemented. If you are 4.3k Ilevel, how would it nerf your stats down. How much would it nerf the stats down. This might be much harder than you realize. Not just that, but MOST of a players power actually comes from boons/mounts etc. So "Gear" itself isnt a HUGE issue... Also some gear as "effects" that cause them to be much stronger... I dont see an "easy" way to accomplish this. Not just an "easy" way but an intuative way that allows ALL players to know what their character will look like when they enter PVP. For any type of change, you would have to create a new "tab" that would show your character as he would be in PVP.
*Artifacts limited to primary or removed altogether. If limited then set to epic version. Everyone can get at least their class artifact. If you play more you get more choices for that slot.
I agree. Ive LONG since said we should only have 1 artifact. 1 Active and thats it. Having 4 is really lame IMO and just a "money grab" for people to buy currency. They should be rare and players should be forced to choose between "ideal stats" OR the "Use" as their focus. I think limiting this to "1" is fine. removing them removes some flavor and character choices.
*Stronghold boons removed or given to everyone in the match. Probably easier to just remove it.
See, I think this is a hard sell. Stronghold is ingrained into the game now. Not only have players SLAVED for months, but invested real $ and time, and currency, etc into these boons FOR the purpose of PVP. I am not opposed to this, I just think its a VERY tough sell to the community as well as the developers and I dont see this happening. Also given that you can join a guild, and get access to these right away without more farming, I see this as something that really doesnt HURT the game all that much nor is it a major contributor to some of the gear gap - like people think it is. Yes it does make this game a more guild-centric game, but that is a decision they obviously opted for when they made this content. I see MANY other issues that are bigger than SH boons IMO.
*Campaign boons I feel like aren't that op, give flavor, and aren't super hard to get. Some classes need the sustain whereas others could go more glass cannon since everyone will be working at the same item level.
See this is where I feel they need to remove (as you probably know) I have outlined above why. It isnt about flavor its about time, knowledge, and build. Yes new players can invest some TIME into getting these. However it does take a lot of time to get them all, and they make a big difference. Not just that, many boons work in ways that are not transparent to most players and many players dont select the PVP centric boons because they are not as good for PVE. If you want to increase the population base that plays PVP, you need to bridge the "gap" between PVE and PVP players. These boons only further INCREASE that gap, and award massive PVP power difference to those that spec specifically for PVP. I dont think this "flavor" is needed. I would challenge you on this point and suggest you can get just as much "flavor" from allowing the full benefit of your gear rather than equalizing gear to 3k, than you get out of these boons. It would be much better to keep gear as is, and remove these - which removes thousands of PVP focused stats that PVPers take advantage of, that the normal player, casual player, or PVE die hard do NOT get - because they arent as good for PVE. Campaign boons are the #1 Culprit of the gear divide between PVE and PVP characters.
*Mount stuff probably easier to remove but could also make epic version (+2k stats) baseline. Give those without epic mounts an average buff (+500power/+500defense/+500armor pen/+500recovery) or something. Those with more epic mounts can choose their buff. Most people will say insignia stuff removed and that is an option. What I would like to see though is more variety and, if needed, higher internal cooldowns.
I agree. I am 110% behind removing mount bonuses. They should be PVE only and treated as "companions" with regards to domination. Its unfair to new players, and again, PVE players will focus on what helps them in PVE, and invest into those bonuses where PVP players focus on the PVP bonuses, further giving PVP players more advantage.
This creates a "reason" for every single PVP game so players are less likely to AFK or quit. It provides something to work for IN pvp each day, it provides matchmaking, bragging rights, etc. I dont see any flaw with this system and its very similar to MANY other competitive games (like Halo/Overwatch etc.)
the real issue is gear difference due to no ilvl based mathmacking AND PREMADES. Otherwise gaunt would still be a thing. i remember 10 seconds waiting for a pop... now is like what 3 hours? figure why. @ayroux
the real issue is gear difference due to no ilvl based mathmacking AND PREMADES. Otherwise gaunt would still be a thing. i remember 10 seconds waiting for a pop... now is like what 3 hours? figure why. @ayroux
Yeah I agree @rayrdan however Ilevel doesnt address a players actual "character power" because your GEAR alone only contributes to about 1/3rd of your overall stat allocation.
SO players have offered things like "Ilevel matchmaking" and as I just said, it falls short. Not just that but you must then "lock" gear upon Queing for PVP which is also a very horrible way to fix the problem since many players want to Que while running around for PVE. So then you would need to create a "PVP Character Sheet" in which you can pre-load all your desired PVP gear, and then THIS sheet would lock upon Que for PVP and not allow you to switch gear in just that tab - this would fix the problem of gear swap. But it doesnt fix the issue of gear only being at MOST 50% of the factor in how strong your character is.
A better system to avoid ALL of this, would be to just create a PVP Level - like most games do now. So everyone either starts out at level 1 or you do X matches and get "placed" at a level.
The beauty of THIS system is it creates matchmaking for you. Every match now matters since you could also LOSE EXP from losing the match. It also creates something for the PVP players to "grind for" each day - as they try to boost their PVP level fr bragging points.
Not just that, but the casual PVE players would rarely then get matched against the die hard PVPers who would be in their own tier.
ALL of this sounds great, but the biggest problem with ANY matchmaking is that we dont have the player base in Neverwinter to support such a MASSIVE gear gap between players.
Large gear gap in PVP only works in very populated games. In less populated games PVP needs to be more "normalized"
This is why I still go back to them removing PVE campaign boons as a start, then I would also suggest that any mount bonuses are removed from PVP and lastly then SH boons removed from PVP as well. Thus you HAVE removed tens of thousands of stats from PVP, making it less possible to have a large gear gap, which means more players would be more willing to try PVP - even if casually AND retired players might consider coming back, if they knew the "barrier to entry" for competitive PVP was removed and all it took was a little gear to be competitive.
It seems very straight forward to me... Why reinvent the wheel @panderus@bbascomdev@strumslinger other games like Overwatch, Destiny, Halo, etc. have all created very competitive but FUN PVP. Sure they are a different type of game, but that doesnt mean you cant take how they approach match making systems and use it for yourself.
The common theme in MOST pvp games now a days is some type of rank or level a player gets that the player can work towards, that is visible and can be used for bragging rights, but ALSO "seasons" in which this rank or level is reset every few months to give players a fresh start. Even the F2P Path of Exile does league seasons as a PVE game and has a huge following.
Stripping boons from PVP, removing mount bonuses all make the gear gap problem a fraction of what it is today, which will bring back players and bring NEW players into PVP. Then release a "NCL" event BUT! The matchmaking system should be based on a newly created "PVP Level" in which you earn EXP from winning PVP matches but lose EXP for losing matches. Oh and as a quick rule of thumb... You DONT want to allow for "boosting" in which a team with a HIGH level PVPer brings along a LOW level PVP character to have it "average" them out. Matchmaking should ALWAYS be based on the HIGHEST level player in a group. So a lvl 50 and lvl 25 does equal 2x lvl 37-38s it would equal 2x lvl 50s to avoid boosting. If that lvl 25 player WON a match against lvl 50s it would be big EXP for him though!
Just a few cents... This is what the game needs to fix itself. Without this, it will keep on bleeding more and more players.
A lot of the long queue timers is because players have just quit the game in general or given up on pvp. There is literally no incentive to do PvP for bis players (other than bragging rights, or for those sadists out there pug stomping) and those that do need the gear get matched against the remaining bis premades that refuse to give up the ghost.
Just off the top of my head things that killed various PvP modes:
1) Gauntylgyrm: Map is too big, requires too many people to go off. Matchmaking is horrible with either steamroll or total loss if there is a group queue.
2) Stronghold siege: Companion active bonuses (owlbear, shadow demon, blacksmith etc glitchers) one shot warlocks, paladins nuff said.
3) Domination: God awful matchmaking. No preference to match 5 man teams vs other 5 man teams. The old mod 5 queue did this. Gear gap would not be an issue if this was the case.
A lot of the long queue timers is because players have just quit the game in general or given up on pvp. There is literally no incentive to do PvP for bis players (other than bragging rights, or for those sadists out there pug stomping) and those that do need the gear get matched against the remaining bis premades that refuse to give up the ghost.
Just off the top of my head things that killed various PvP modes:
1) Gauntylgyrm:
Map is too big, requires too many people to go off. Matchmaking is horrible with either steamroll or total loss if there is a group queue.
2) Stronghold siege:
Companion active bonuses (owlbear, shadow demon, blacksmith etc glitchers) one shot warlocks, paladins nuff said.
3) Domination:
God awful matchmaking. No preference to match 5 man teams vs other 5 man teams. The old mod 5 queue did this. Gear gap would not be an issue if this was the case.
@sh00termcl0vin, first, I love your name haha! Second, I couldnt agree more man. There is NO incentive! this is why I think the "PVP Level" idea would create this incentive. Everyone goes NUTS for competition and bragging rights. I think the leaderboard did some bad things to this game, but it also did some good things. I remember when mod 3 dropped and the leaderboard came out, people went NUTS for months trying to grind that thing out. I know I did... What burnt everyone out was the janky way they approached ELO and how you could lose ELO by winning games and what not... Anyways, I believe my PVP Level idea... well... its not MY idea at all actually just took that concept from other games and proposed it in a way that Neverwinter could use it... would BRING that incentive.
It would be a Level like your character level, that requires you to PVP to level it up. Everyday you log in, you would want to grind EXP by doing PVP to get that level higher and higher, and thus, moving you up the leaderboard.
I do agree with your summary on the PVP modes. 1) Gauntylgyrm is a cluster... 2) SH Siege ruined with companions (something many of us fought AGAINST when it hit PTR/owlbear) 3) Domination - zero Matchmaking. This is where the PVP level fixes MOST of this...
You could use PVP Level for every single one of these modes. With the removal of boons, you actually FIX alot of these issues with " one shot warlocks, paladins nuff said. ". Most of what allows for these cheesy things are boon glitches and boons not interacting very well with powers... Removing them fixes a ton of problems, removes power creep from PVP, removes massive gear gap from PVP etc etc.
I think at this point the best they could do is maybe fix the queue for Domination at a minimum. Anything else would probably require too much development time, which at this point with the PvP population so low I don't see them investing the resources to do so. Also the leaderboards have been broken for a very long time (spot swapping) so that is another strike against bragging rights unfortunately. While I do think a ranking system in theory would be a good idea, I don't think they have the player population any more to support this. The end result if they implemented something like this would be unreasonably long queue times for those that play the game the most, which would be even more damaging.
As for GG and siege they are a lost cause. GG should just be removed from the game at this point IMO and siege glitches aren't really about SH boons, but buggy interactions between certain class encounter powers (burning light, killing flames etc.) some of which are kind of fixed with warlock changes. Still I think it's too late in the game to try and do anything about this unless they do a massive overhaul to this game mode or just disable companion active bonuses (a much easier fix). I'm not holding out any hope for this though because they want people opening boxes to get companions so that they can use them in siege, or at least that is their train of thought.
"Something has to be done. Additional queues solved nothing because rather than use the normal q to make sync matches or to fight in a near pug-free queue, PVP guilds just farmed the solo and duo queue events like entitled masochists. They must be forced to play against like-geared players."
Entitled masochists. Really. They were PVP events. We are PVPers. It would sound as ridiculous if I talked about newb pugs who Qd in droves for the solo and Duo events.
How dare those low IL pugs Q solo during the event and screw it up for the rest of us BIS players.
My patience with IL whiners is growing thin. Had you ever attempted anything except pug PVP, had you ever actually tried to Sync Qs with or without these events you wouldn't make such ridiculously assumptive statements.
We ask for a Premade lobby for a reason. If you had ever spent an hour and a half trying to get a sync Q you might understand, but no, it's much easier to assume and insult.
There is no such thing as a "pug free Q" during events or in regular Q. When cryptic finally listens to us and gives us the lobby we've been asking for mods to get, we will spend the majority of our time doing inhouses. However, it will never keep us out of other types of PVP. Get used to it man.
Comments
The other side benefit or boon removal, is that PVP becomes much easier to balance around as well. With that power creep gone PVP will be more about class powers and items, not crazy stat stacking builds.
I have spent tens of hours discussing with former players and current players about the problems with the game, what would fix it, what would get players to come back, and it keeps coming back to the same thing. Removal of power creep/power gap/and stat allocation in PVP. Create a "vanilla" PVP that will then be somewhat changeless with each module that releases new boons that are now "optional" where as the gear would be something to consider farming for PVP.
Many games do this type of thing, I think one of the most successful at doing this "type" of this was Destiny. Where you had a more vanilla "equalized" PVP field, where lvl and gear DID matter, but not a CRAZY amount, but for PVE purposes alot more things mattered about gear/stats. In the same way, Neverwinter could do the same thing with the boon structure. Anyone could be "competitive" in PVP however if you want to excel in PVE you will need to do all the campaigns and get all the boons.
Thinking back to module 0,1 or 2 days. There has always been a discrepancy in gear between BIS and "PUGs" however that gear gap is nowhere near as bad as it is today. I remember if I ever would 3v1, that was a BIG deal. Even a 2v1 was pretty tough, because the power gap between a BIS player and the "average" player was big but not THAT much where I could 2v1 or 3v1 with ease but TODAY you see that happen all the time. 1 BIS player can just crush 3,4,5 players.... The culprit is the power creep (stat allocation) available. Its also not just the stats but the ability (because of the stats available) to invest in BOTH offensive and defensive capabilities.
The ONLY solution I see is to cut the stat allocation available for PVP and the easiest way to make this the most friendly would be to remove the boons, removes 13k+ stats or more.... (NOT including SH boons).
If Cryptic wants to save the game. They need to answer this question. The answer seems very simple to me. Doing a "solo Q" wont help. Trying to make pvp gear more accessible wont help frankly as there is still too much of a stat discrepancy between PVe/PVP builds.
The only efficient/easy way to encourage more of the population to PVP is to cut the allowed stats via boons. Which makes the power gap MUCH MUCH smaller than it is now, more like modules 0-2 where "average" players actually stand a CHANCE against better geared players.
I hope you are wrong, and I hope I am wrong that PVP will likely not get fixed. Thats why I am trying so hard to discuss this issue and push this post so it gets seen by the DEV team and atleast discussed. I really believe it will be a HUGE relief to the game. Not only bring more of the population into PVP but it also alleviates what you just said "not wanting to grind day in and day out" - This is a common theme I get when I get in Discord/Vent/TS and talk with players. "What you doing?" I ask. "Dailies" I get in response. To MANY NW players the word "Daily" just sends chills down their spine. Its a Chore, its work, its NOT fun anymore. Removing Boons from PVP, removes the NEED to do these dailies for PVP players. Which means more time in game spent PLAYING the game, spent PVPing. Less dailies. Everyone wins. This is already happening. IMO Cryptic went too far in trying to monetize power so much. MANY successful F2P games have opted for a more "pay for cosmetic" approach. NW is one of the ones that you can pay for power, which was fantastic at first when it was a new game, and had TONS of players.... But the player base is sick of the business model. Every module extremely expensive gear becomes obsolete, requires millions of AD for some new "must have item" and rather than the BIS items DROPPING from content, like dungeon runs, its instead something you need to grind your butt off for months, or just pay and have it earlier. Its a very alt UNFRIENDLY model, which is what kills people's desire to play.
Again, back to the point though, step 1 is making PVP more fun for ALL players. The only way to do this, is remove "PVE boons" from PVP. They can keep in the SH boons and the PVP campaign boons in PVP but remove all the module boons from PVP!
Then one day regeneration was changed to no longer work in combat....
Was I upset... hell yes I was.
Did I complain.. yes even made youtube videos about it.
Was I forced to adapt... yes I went full lifesteal.
Wasted all my time effort and money on something that was removed/changed.
Now strongholds boons are up to be removed/nerfed.
For the sake of balance.... do it.
The game has come a LONG way from its initial intent... I dont recall where but I remember reading an interview about D&D and what makes it fun and what makes it as a video game fun. Its the premise of "get some friends together, and go kill a dragon" That is why this game was fun in the first place. You had your character that progressed in a very appealing combat/action/MMO platform that had beauty in its simplicity. I would get online, get a few buddies and we would Que up for PVP or run a dungeon for some loot. That was my play experience.
Shortly after the "modules" came out. It completely changed. Log in and FIRST, I must do my dailies so I can progress. I HAVE to do these to remain competitive in PVP. After that, I could PVP second and then if I felt up for it, dungeon run.
As more and more modules progressed. The work load on dailies and daily farming become more and more. With the SH release, it was "do your HEs for influence!" "Do your daily quests for shards and what not!" I became a chore very quickly and literally killed my desire to play the game. But atleast I had PVP! Soon, however, that ended up not even being fun because my gear gap was SO much higher than the average player, it wasnt even fun anymore killing an average player, because it involved zero skill.
Anyways, back to my point. Neverwinter needs to get back to its roots. What made it successful. Its needs to re-focus on making PVP an easier platform to be competitive in for new and old players alike. remove this "NEED" to do daily quests and what not, by removing boons, this accomplishes that by making PVE campaigns an "optional" thing for PVP focused players. Yeah, I just dont see Cryptic going "back" on something this big... Thats the only reason I changed my position. Not that I think it IS fair. But to go back to your point. I agree it would be better to bring 500+ new players into the PVP scene and lose 50 BIS players over this change.
But here is where I think the middle ground lies. I am of the opinion, if they remove SH boons from PVP MORE current PVPers and players quit the game, than if you just removed PVE boons. The effect will be very similar as far as the impact on the game and the balancing out it accomplishes. |
Either way, they need to make PVP more of a "side benefit" to the game, by making it less gear dependent, less item dependent, less boon dependent so more players of all gear levels can enjoy it. I think of Destiny and how they accomplished this with a "PVE stat" on every item. So a low level gun, could be nearly as good as a high level gun, but for PVE purposes, they were VASTLY different since the gun had an "attack power" stat I recall that only modified PVE damage where PVP damage was normalized based on the guns subtype...
In the same way, they could make MANY items in NW (mounts for example) only provide their benefits in PVE. They could make (as this post proposes) all the campaign boons PVE only. They could make all the artifact equipment bonuses PVE only. Everything like that, would be a HUGE positive for PVP and level the playing field SO much more. I DONT think completely standardizing gear is necessary. The reason I loved NW was because its RPG aspect to building a character and then using him in PVP against others, but its gone too far now where unless you farm everyday, belong to a BIS Stronghold, have all the boons, artifacts, artifact equipment, etc you cant be competitive at all.
They need to remove all these advantages from PVP and make them PVE only bonuses - like Destiny does - to remove the "gear gap" from PVP while still retaining SOME advantage that gear does provide and options that gear does provide.
Noone is saying players will quit because they cant dominate, though that will likely happen to some SMALL extent, but the majority of BIS players I know would gladly love a more level playing field. Most BIS players are frankly bored out of their minds right now.
class="Quote" rel="trentbail21">Solo que just needs to be truly solo que with no chance of cheating the system to put you on your friends, guildmates or alliance members teams. Truly random and it will work.
This wont solve a thing. The problem ISNT queing with your friends. To be honest man, it doesnt sound like you really understand PVP that much. The biggest problem is the gear gap issue. 1 player can wreck and entire team of players. So having this solo Q thing wont fix anything without FIRST addressing he gear gap - caused from PVE boons.
Also, you are missing a fundamental aspect of playing MMOs. Its to play with your friends. Removing the ability to play PVP with your friends will further HURT the community. Sure it will be "great" for a short time but all it is is a bandaid that doesnt address any of the core problems and only makes further restrictions on the game that will ultimately lead to its failure (if its not already at failure now)
We need to first address the gear gap issues - caused by boons. Then if further needed they can remove SH boons and mount bonuses as well, THEN you will have a much more balanced PVP from the aspect of gear. That will solve alot of issues. THEN you have the ability to introduce a real matchmaking system, which should work to weed out premades vs non premades and I think you will see this "solo Q only" thing resolve itself where you wouldnt need to put restrictions on PVP Queing.
But this is just my humble opinion im just an xbox player trying to get my opinion out.
If we have a minimum of 2 more weapon set's that enter game with more power than the last issued, this game has basically sealed it's fate.
New weapons can be issued with the same damage as old but different set bonuses without killing the game.
Same goes with armor sets.
"Something has to be done. Additional queues solved nothing because rather than use the normal q to make sync matches or to fight in a near pug-free queue, PVP guilds just farmed the solo and duo queue events like entitled masochists. They must be forced to play against like-geared players."
Entitled masochists. Really. They were PVP events. We are PVPers. It would sound as ridiculous if I talked about newb pugs who Qd in droves for the solo and Duo events.
How dare those low IL pugs Q solo during the event and screw it up for the rest of us BIS players.
My patience with IL whiners is growing thin. Had you ever attempted anything except pug PVP, had you ever actually tried to Sync Qs with or without these events you wouldn't make such ridiculously assumptive statements.
We ask for a Premade lobby for a reason. If you had ever spent an hour and a half trying to get a sync Q you might understand, but no, it's much easier to assume and insult.
There is no such thing as a "pug free Q" during events or in regular Q. When cryptic finally listens to us and gives us the lobby we've been asking for mods to get, we will spend the majority of our time doing inhouses. However, it will never keep us out of other types of PVP. Get used to it man.
The majority of the player base do not get these boons for PVP. They are not optimizing their stats around PVP, but rather PVE. How many players are actually taking endless consumption and stacking lifesteal in their boons? Only PVP focused players. The impact all the lifesteal has combined with endless consumption - just those FEW boons alone makes a massive massive massive difference in PVP.
I go back to this "V" I have been talking about. On the left you have PVE builds, on the right, PVP. As you start at the bottom and move up, it shows that with more and more allowable stats, you create bigger and bigger gaps between the player base BECAUSE the "ideal" stats are different.
People generally will take crit in their boons, as another example, as opposed to arp or power, or deflect. You see the problem?
The problem is NOT "total stats" Everyone has VERY similar "total" stats. Its how those stats are used that make the power gap problem in PVP.
Even taking the "BIS" PVE players, will all the boons and even maxed SH boons, and even lets assume they do throw on Lions PVP gear. They wont stand a CHANCE because they are specced too offensively. They dont have Endless, they dont stack lifesteal/HP/deflect all the defensive survival stats FROM PVE boons that make them more sustainable and therefore easy to clear off a node or burst down, and die. No contest.
Again, the problem is NOT "total stats" for players but its "ideal" stats COMBINED with the current allowable stats. There is no way to bridge the gap.
This is also why SH boons are LESS impactful than PVE boons. Because PVP and PVE players alike all have "access" to generally the same stats, just in different amounts. Going from a 20k HP boon to a 32k HP boon IS a big deal, sure, I am not denying it creates an advantage, but its not as big of a deal as that SAME player ALSO getting an extra 5-10% Lifesteal, few extra thousand ARP, some deflect, endless consumption (which doubles your lifesteal) - ALL things awarded by PVE boons that most players who are either new, or PVE focused DO NOT get. Those are a bigger difference.
PVE boons are a HUGE part of the problem. If they were removed, that is thousands upon thousands of PVP focused stats the PVP players would LOSE, and the PVE players only lose PVE focused stats - which means their loss is MINIMAL IN PVP, where as the loss to PVP players is MASSIVE to their impact in PVP.
Dont get me wrong, ive said it over and over, SH boons and Mount bonuses are ALSO huge impacts and I would be 100% behind removing them also, I just dont think thats as feasible seeing as Cryptics big "focus" has been on these strongholds NOR do I think SH boons impact PVP as much as PVE boons do, for the above reasons. Sure a few extra thousand ARP does add up, or a few extra HP adds up, but its much less an impact as a PVPer going FULL PVP focused "PVE boons" over his PVE counter part who goes full PVE focus on his PVE boons. This is exactly right and why I say that the issue is GEAR GAP and not a solo Q or duo Q event. The gear gap is far too large, where if you have a full team of 5x 3k Ilevel players on 1 team, and another team with 4x 2.5k Ilevel players and 1 4.3K Ilevel player guess who wins? The team with the 4k+ player because he can 3v1 or 4v1 people on a node.
The POWER that his boons AND SH boons AND mounts AND items gives him literally makes hi 3-4x as strong as someone else. If you MERELY just removed the PVE boons, he could likely still take on more than 1 player, but he wouldnt be able to SUSTAIN himself versus 4 players like he can now with all his boons. Because with the PVE boons, it enables players to have their cake and eat it too. They can have high defensive stats AND still put out good damage, where the PVE players dont get much damage advantage because crits are generally worthless in PVP, and they have NO sustain.
removing PVE boons, removes PVP players sustain, and if they want that sustain BACK, it would be at the loss of damage. Thus fixing SOME of the issue. Not just that, but SH boons are guild/alliance wide MEANING its a much more friendly alt game (PVP) than it is now - requiring each alt you play to ALSO do his daily campaign farming on all his or her alts to stay competitive and get these boons. Think of the NEW player who comes to the game and has to farm for hours ALL the campaign boon quests and THEN wants to make an alt too. The sheer work and time requires is overwhelming! Or put yourself in the shoes of players who have retired who have thought about coming back? If they missed 3 modules that now becomes hours of work EVERY DAY to just get back to being competitive in PVP. Its a HUGE turn off to those players. I know, because I've talked to A LOT of players who have quit and its the biggest barrier to them coming back to play the game.
Yes, there are still OTHER issues, like Wheel, the new weapons that are WAY better than anything else, Mounts, etc. But removal of PVE boons is a HUGE first step in fixing the gear gap problem. Mount bonuses would be (IMO) the next thing to remove from PVP as they offer another 4k+ stats or sometimes some of the effects are even better than sheer stats... But thats another thing for another time.
Create a queue called "Balanced Domination" or something where several things happens at once.
*Item level is set to 3000 (or some other arbitrary number)and all gear is nerfed/buffed to reach that. This would include enchants and whatever else. Maybe all enchants set to rank 8 & normal versions or something.
*Artifacts limited to primary or removed altogether. If limited then set to epic version. Everyone can get at least their class artifact. If you play more you get more choices for that slot.
*Stronghold boons removed or given to everyone in the match. Probably easier to just remove it.
*Campaign boons I feel like aren't that op, give flavor, and aren't super hard to get. Some classes need the sustain whereas others could go more glass cannon since everyone will be working at the same item level.
*Mount stuff probably easier to remove but could also make epic version (+2k stats) baseline. Give those without epic mounts an average buff (+500power/+500defense/+500armor pen/+500recovery) or something. Those with more epic mounts can choose their buff. Most people will say insignia stuff removed and that is an option. What I would like to see though is more variety and, if needed, higher internal cooldowns.
From there you could play with how to implement it. Solo, duo, weekly, permanent or whatever.
I dont think its a good idea to create a separate que. Already que times can be long and the PVP population isnt large enough to start splitting Ques like this. If you retain the old(current) que with all the items. Most of the players who have all the BIS gear will be reluctant to "step down" to a lower level to equalize gear. The response is often "Ive worked hard for this, why should I give it up". Im not saying its a valid argument, but that is just what they say. So I dont think splitting Ques and population even more is the BEST solution IMO. If NW had 100k players that could work just fine, but I think it only has a few thousand last I checked. Im not quite sure how this would be implemented. If you are 4.3k Ilevel, how would it nerf your stats down. How much would it nerf the stats down. This might be much harder than you realize. Not just that, but MOST of a players power actually comes from boons/mounts etc. So "Gear" itself isnt a HUGE issue... Also some gear as "effects" that cause them to be much stronger... I dont see an "easy" way to accomplish this. Not just an "easy" way but an intuative way that allows ALL players to know what their character will look like when they enter PVP. For any type of change, you would have to create a new "tab" that would show your character as he would be in PVP. I agree. Ive LONG since said we should only have 1 artifact. 1 Active and thats it. Having 4 is really lame IMO and just a "money grab" for people to buy currency. They should be rare and players should be forced to choose between "ideal stats" OR the "Use" as their focus. I think limiting this to "1" is fine. removing them removes some flavor and character choices. See, I think this is a hard sell. Stronghold is ingrained into the game now. Not only have players SLAVED for months, but invested real $ and time, and currency, etc into these boons FOR the purpose of PVP. I am not opposed to this, I just think its a VERY tough sell to the community as well as the developers and I dont see this happening. Also given that you can join a guild, and get access to these right away without more farming, I see this as something that really doesnt HURT the game all that much nor is it a major contributor to some of the gear gap - like people think it is. Yes it does make this game a more guild-centric game, but that is a decision they obviously opted for when they made this content. I see MANY other issues that are bigger than SH boons IMO. See this is where I feel they need to remove (as you probably know) I have outlined above why. It isnt about flavor its about time, knowledge, and build. Yes new players can invest some TIME into getting these. However it does take a lot of time to get them all, and they make a big difference. Not just that, many boons work in ways that are not transparent to most players and many players dont select the PVP centric boons because they are not as good for PVE. If you want to increase the population base that plays PVP, you need to bridge the "gap" between PVE and PVP players. These boons only further INCREASE that gap, and award massive PVP power difference to those that spec specifically for PVP. I dont think this "flavor" is needed. I would challenge you on this point and suggest you can get just as much "flavor" from allowing the full benefit of your gear rather than equalizing gear to 3k, than you get out of these boons. It would be much better to keep gear as is, and remove these - which removes thousands of PVP focused stats that PVPers take advantage of, that the normal player, casual player, or PVE die hard do NOT get - because they arent as good for PVE. Campaign boons are the #1 Culprit of the gear divide between PVE and PVP characters. I agree. I am 110% behind removing mount bonuses. They should be PVE only and treated as "companions" with regards to domination. Its unfair to new players, and again, PVE players will focus on what helps them in PVE, and invest into those bonuses where PVP players focus on the PVP bonuses, further giving PVP players more advantage. The BEST solution to matchmaking and "purpose" behind PVP is honestly the "PVP-Level" idea. I am not the first to suggest this, but I did recently make a post about it and I think it would be a HUGE addition/benefit to PVPers:http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1223443/matchmaking-introducing-a-new-pvp-level-for-better-matchmaking-suggestion
This creates a "reason" for every single PVP game so players are less likely to AFK or quit. It provides something to work for IN pvp each day, it provides matchmaking, bragging rights, etc. I dont see any flaw with this system and its very similar to MANY other competitive games (like Halo/Overwatch etc.)
@ayroux
SO players have offered things like "Ilevel matchmaking" and as I just said, it falls short. Not just that but you must then "lock" gear upon Queing for PVP which is also a very horrible way to fix the problem since many players want to Que while running around for PVE. So then you would need to create a "PVP Character Sheet" in which you can pre-load all your desired PVP gear, and then THIS sheet would lock upon Que for PVP and not allow you to switch gear in just that tab - this would fix the problem of gear swap. But it doesnt fix the issue of gear only being at MOST 50% of the factor in how strong your character is.
A better system to avoid ALL of this, would be to just create a PVP Level - like most games do now. So everyone either starts out at level 1 or you do X matches and get "placed" at a level.
The beauty of THIS system is it creates matchmaking for you. Every match now matters since you could also LOSE EXP from losing the match. It also creates something for the PVP players to "grind for" each day - as they try to boost their PVP level fr bragging points.
Not just that, but the casual PVE players would rarely then get matched against the die hard PVPers who would be in their own tier.
ALL of this sounds great, but the biggest problem with ANY matchmaking is that we dont have the player base in Neverwinter to support such a MASSIVE gear gap between players.
Large gear gap in PVP only works in very populated games. In less populated games PVP needs to be more "normalized"
This is why I still go back to them removing PVE campaign boons as a start, then I would also suggest that any mount bonuses are removed from PVP and lastly then SH boons removed from PVP as well. Thus you HAVE removed tens of thousands of stats from PVP, making it less possible to have a large gear gap, which means more players would be more willing to try PVP - even if casually AND retired players might consider coming back, if they knew the "barrier to entry" for competitive PVP was removed and all it took was a little gear to be competitive.
It seems very straight forward to me... Why reinvent the wheel @panderus @bbascomdev @strumslinger other games like Overwatch, Destiny, Halo, etc. have all created very competitive but FUN PVP. Sure they are a different type of game, but that doesnt mean you cant take how they approach match making systems and use it for yourself.
The common theme in MOST pvp games now a days is some type of rank or level a player gets that the player can work towards, that is visible and can be used for bragging rights, but ALSO "seasons" in which this rank or level is reset every few months to give players a fresh start. Even the F2P Path of Exile does league seasons as a PVE game and has a huge following.
Stripping boons from PVP, removing mount bonuses all make the gear gap problem a fraction of what it is today, which will bring back players and bring NEW players into PVP. Then release a "NCL" event BUT! The matchmaking system should be based on a newly created "PVP Level" in which you earn EXP from winning PVP matches but lose EXP for losing matches. Oh and as a quick rule of thumb... You DONT want to allow for "boosting" in which a team with a HIGH level PVPer brings along a LOW level PVP character to have it "average" them out. Matchmaking should ALWAYS be based on the HIGHEST level player in a group. So a lvl 50 and lvl 25 does equal 2x lvl 37-38s it would equal 2x lvl 50s to avoid boosting. If that lvl 25 player WON a match against lvl 50s it would be big EXP for him though!
Just a few cents... This is what the game needs to fix itself. Without this, it will keep on bleeding more and more players.
Just off the top of my head things that killed various PvP modes:
1) Gauntylgyrm:
Map is too big, requires too many people to go off. Matchmaking is horrible with either steamroll or total loss if there is a group queue.
2) Stronghold siege:
Companion active bonuses (owlbear, shadow demon, blacksmith etc glitchers) one shot warlocks, paladins nuff said.
3) Domination:
God awful matchmaking. No preference to match 5 man teams vs other 5 man teams. The old mod 5 queue did this. Gear gap would not be an issue if this was the case.
It would be a Level like your character level, that requires you to PVP to level it up. Everyday you log in, you would want to grind EXP by doing PVP to get that level higher and higher, and thus, moving you up the leaderboard.
I do agree with your summary on the PVP modes.
1) Gauntylgyrm is a cluster...
2) SH Siege ruined with companions (something many of us fought AGAINST when it hit PTR/owlbear)
3) Domination - zero Matchmaking. This is where the PVP level fixes MOST of this...
You could use PVP Level for every single one of these modes. With the removal of boons, you actually FIX alot of these issues with " one shot warlocks, paladins nuff said. ". Most of what allows for these cheesy things are boon glitches and boons not interacting very well with powers... Removing them fixes a ton of problems, removes power creep from PVP, removes massive gear gap from PVP etc etc.
I think at this point the best they could do is maybe fix the queue for Domination at a minimum. Anything else would probably require too much development time, which at this point with the PvP population so low I don't see them investing the resources to do so. Also the leaderboards have been broken for a very long time (spot swapping) so that is another strike against bragging rights unfortunately. While I do think a ranking system in theory would be a good idea, I don't think they have the player population any more to support this. The end result if they implemented something like this would be unreasonably long queue times for those that play the game the most, which would be even more damaging.
As for GG and siege they are a lost cause. GG should just be removed from the game at this point IMO and siege glitches aren't really about SH boons, but buggy interactions between certain class encounter powers (burning light, killing flames etc.) some of which are kind of fixed with warlock changes. Still I think it's too late in the game to try and do anything about this unless they do a massive overhaul to this game mode or just disable companion active bonuses (a much easier fix). I'm not holding out any hope for this though because they want people opening boxes to get companions so that they can use them in siege, or at least that is their train of thought.