current state of the TR

dadissk

I just wanted to hear your opinion on the trickster rogue because if you ask me the TR is compared to other DPS classes a sad joke. There is no way a TR can compete with a SW, GWF or HR of the same GS having the same skill level (sure bad players are bad no matter what class). Not to mention that classes with lower GS deal more damage than a TR.
I recently read a "guide" where the OP said something between the lines "its good to have a TR in your team because he can use his stealth and go revive". Sure i get it the TR is a PvP class but i dont understand why there is such a huge cap in PvE.
IMO all dps should be able to deal more or less the same amount of damage but maybe its just me i honestly dont know.
My main is a half-Orc TR with about 2500 GS. Ive spend alot of ADs to try different builds and just recently rerolled him trying to increase strength a bit. So i really would like to become a somewhat reliable DPS source for my team rather than just making a new SW.
What are your thoughts? please share them with me.
If a high end TR reads this i would gladly share my build maybe this is on my end but i highly doubt it.

blizzardpenguin

Please share your build if u feel your dps is low, so we can help. Its highly likely something with your build. Yes, a TR is highly unlikely to out-damage a GWF, unless the GWF has no idea what their doing. As a 4240 TR on XB1, I can put out tons of damage. You just have to know what to do, such as when to pop your combo, what encounters, dailies, feats, & paragon choices to pick

Start by giving us things like your build, what stats your focusing on, paragon path, etc. Anything you can give us to help. We can't help if we don't know how your building your TR

ravenskya

One of the things to adjust in your mind (I still struggle with it) is that the TR is not the rogue of old DnD. This character is more about CC than straight DPS. After a respec I do good damage, but I don't expect I will ever do as much as the GWF.

zheng

Let me say my original char was a 2500 tr suffering the same problem as you, at the time I was one of the highest dps around doing elol runs when the game first came out on ps4, I still realized with good gear, correct rotations and the right specs, sw will still 2x you. But your dmg will be very similar to a gwf.

Let me also add the majority of tr players are complete garbage, they get 20xed in epic runs and get kicked at the end. Its gotten so bad to the point some edemo teams auto remove trs from the team, and I can't remeber the last time I saw a tr on cn run.

Basicly the class isn't strong, dps is similar to gwf if played right, extremely high maintenance since you need greater vorpal and Fire archon with good bondings. Just to be on par with a generic geared geared gwf or out dosed by sw that's 300ilevel under you.

zheng

Here is the worst part, for some dumb reason the majority of the player base still think the tr is op, so it's unlikely the class will receive any buffs in the future

armadeonx

The TR is only OP in pvp because it can 1-shot other players. It can't do that in a T2 unless the other 4 players are buffers. However, a TR can be competitive but it is much more expensive to make it so. Gear for gear the TR is at a disadvantage in pve over the GWF ever since the GWF received a huge buff and the TR received a slight nerf. As ever Cryptic went too far (they did the same with the CW and OP).

The SW (and GF for buffs) are top of the board but both have nerfs on the way. At some point in the future the GWF will probably be nerfed too but I have no info on that - but these things always come around eventually.

For now, all pve TR's need a very solid executioner build and serious investment to be good.

zheng

null

Exactly what this guy said, but nerfs to sw and gwf? Read the updates sw, hr are getting buffed lmao. If anything tr might get nerfed because everyone still think it's op

armadeonx

GF not GWF coming up - they are reducing the effectiveness of ITF so it provides a flat 25% damage boost. That's still significant but not to the ridiculous amounts they can currently do.

The big hitter for the SW is TT. Currently it can be applied to 3 targets simultaneously so if the SW lines them up right they can triple the output - this is being changed to single target. They are adjusting other skills, mostly to make them effective alternatives to the current SW meta. Most of the rest of SW dps actually comes from their puppet receiving buffs from party support, I believe this is getting toned down too. Murderous Flames currently gets double buffs - this is being fixed. Overall they will come down the paingiver table.

When you see them increasing the DPS on certain skills it's easy to assume they are getting a buff but if you played the class you'd know those skills are currently weak and never used. They are nerfing the popular ones and buffing the others but the overall impact will be a decrease in dungeon dps.

Yes, the HR is getting a buff but again it's mostly to skills they don't use much though. Specifically, two of their lesser used encounters are getting buffs of 37% and 45% and a few others are getting minor tweaks.

Me talking about the GWF is partly speculation as although all classes will get a 'review' there's no way to know exactly what Cryptic will do. However, once the current changes hit, the GWF will be sitting solo at the top of the tree - which suggests they will quite likely be subject to an overall reduction when their rebalance comes around.

One of the ways the devs are analysing what to do is they are actually looking at the data on how classes perform in T2's, as well as which ones are most used and which skills they use to do it. It would make sense that the TR will have a poor showing on these charts and as such I'm hoping their correction will be an upward one. As for pvp, that's an easy fix - just make tenacity apply to piercing damage.

zheng

I doubt it, I think it's based on popular opinion instead of raw data, why else has tr gotten the short end of the stick for so long? People still think tr is op. As a gwf player myself I can tell you the class is extremely well rounded. We can tank for short durations, we have weak party buffs in the 2 war cry skills. Our overall dps is below sw and slight under the hr. We have good mobility for a very short amount of time. Our dps increases the longer we stay fighting vs any targets.

armadeonx

Speaking as someone who has a TR and a GWF of the same IL, the TR can clear through simple areas faster but anything harder such as 5 man dungeons & skirmishes, the GWF soars up the paingiver table and does about double the damage of the TR - that's with the TR running a proper pve executioner build.

Cryptic do listen to the players to some degree but they have actually stated what methods they are using to analyse class effectiveness. That doesn't necessarily mean they make the right choices with the balancing of course.

ravenskya

I find that on my TR, even though my big hits can be as hard as a GWF - I can't stand there and unload them on a boss. I have to go in and out of a battle and spend a large % of it dodging unless I have a buffer there. The GWF just stands there and unloads. Also since we are more of a CC class than a true "kill the boss" class we are at a disadvantage in the dungeons. I have yet to have a boss effected by my stuns/debuffs etc and most of them seem to be able to see me in hiding, but I can wipe out a group of lower mobs like it's my job.

Sadly the TR is unnecessary in end game, I think because of the attempt to make them more balanced in PvP. In Demo and dungeons I consistently come in 3rd in damage (behind my two friends with GWF's) and I beat most of the HR and SW that I come across as randoms.

I stand by my belief that they need to make a TR more of a positionally dependant character - Uber deadly in PVE while flanking and weak as a puppy Toe to Toe.

pedroyaya

tr is straight garbage for pve which they should be if they excel in pvp no class should be good at everything and the tr is why most people stop playing pvp getting 1 shotted from an invisible tr totally sucks after the 20th time so i think its only fair i also thought the tr was more single target dmg so obviously a class that focuses more on dmg to multi enemys will outclass the tr my main is a CW and by the end of elol or wherever in pve my class will out dps an end game high gs tr pretty much everytime

ravenskya

I hate PVP, I want my TR to be more viable in PVE - that would be me dream. I love playing the TR and knowing that they were nerfed for a part of a game I can't even stand to play... well that makes me sad.

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ravenskya

yankeethao#6964 said:

null

U can't be on top in everything. If a class is like that then it wouldn't be fair. It's a win/loss situation between classes and races to see whichever stats you prefer. Lose one stat while gain the other that u prefer most. Can't get both stats to be the best. And as said. TR is weak in defensive but they do have the ability to disappear and just 1 hit KO anyone in pvp so that is their advantage already. How can they get both ability in pvp and pve to do that. It would be unfair for every other class knowing TR will dominate the whole game if they can do both.

The trade off of being able to be one shot killed for the ability TO one shot kill is what the DnD rogue is about. That's great that the TR is still supposed to be so amazing in PvP, but I'm a PvE player and my strongest hits are not comparable to a GWF.

So where is the trade off for me? I end up with a squishy character that cannot do the damage of an equally IL non-squishy character. I am glad to make the trade off of my survivability for the creation of the high speed glass cannon that involves tons of bobbing and weaving and going in and out of stealth to stay alive in order to land that one massively destructive hit.

But I don't get to do that. Sure I'm still in the top of damage on the boards when it comes to demo and the dungeons - but this isn't what the TR should be about. To get that high on the damage I'm having to stand there next to the GWF and unload every attack I have while popping in and out of stealth to get my bonuses.

By saying that a class shouldn't be viable in both PVP and PVE is essentially saying that there should be PVP only classes and PVE only classes. I'm strongly against that. Every class should have it's place in both - right now the TR is missing it's place in end game PVE

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ravenskya

yankeethao#6964 said:

U don't seem to understand what I want by a trade off. U can't be like a gwf on pve as how a gwf can't be like a TR in pvp and just one hit/swing anyone to death. Why not be a different class if you're upset about it? You're already dominating in pvp. If u want to be as strong as a gwf then spend some zen or save enough Astro diamonds to buy better gear/enchantments to improve your character. Even gwf complain about getting one shot in pvp, and is that fair to them that they can't get a chance to kill TR when TR can use their daily almost instantly again to kill a gwf? It seem like u prefer to choose a class that is better in pvp for pve and wants his ability for pve. U can't do that it wouldn't be fair for other class because as I said before. Doing so will make TR dominate all.

I think you misunderstand. First of all a character shouldn't be a PVP or PVE character - all characters should be viable in all aspects of the game. Right now that isn't so.

Yes I want my TR to be viable as a PVE character - I don't play PVP, I HATE PVP. I HATE PVP in every game I've ever played. But I don't complain about it, I just stay out of it. I left The Division when I realized that the only endgame they had was PVP, and I came here - where PVP is completely optional.

The Trade off shouldn't be PVP versus PVE - the trade off should be:
This character is squishier but has a higher damage output
This character over here is high in AOE but can't do hand to hand
This is a Tank, it can take all sorts of damage but doesn't deal much out.

My argument is that the TR is significantly weaker than the other characters in endgame PVE, and that this needs a bit more balancing. The TR should have significantly higher hit markers than the GWF, but should have less of them because of the need to go in an out of battle to stay alive - that is the basis of a rogue. Run in, hit hard run out. That part is what is lacking in the PVE part of this game. Certainly we do need to run in and out of battle, but the single attacks are not as powerful as they need to be for a character that is essentially one shotted if hit in the end game dungeons.

Whether this is in PVP or PVE shouldn't matter. The trade off should be about balancing the character with itself and with the other available characters.

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ravenskya

yankeethao#6964 said:

If I still think that the TR should be as great as the gwf to balance it out then there wouldn't be any use of the gwf which his ability is mainly about power. TR isn't about power as gwf, but critical. If u feel the need for power then u should consider a gwf, or else get more enchantments for power and get all your boon? The boons does help a lot. Especially it's also how u fix your feats too that makes your class better or not. If you u fix it right, any class will be as great, and as the best class of all. If u fix your feats wrongly or doesn't know how to fix your feat it will eventually make your strong class a weaker class and you expect it too. But do consider getting for enchants for power if u feel the need for more power.

I'm not talking about power (the stat) at all, I'm not sure where your replies are even coming from.

I really don't think you are understanding what I'm saying.

I'm discussing conceptual things - not my specific character (which I'm fine with). I come from a PnP background with many years of playing DnD based table top and computer games. My argument is that the TR in this game does not play the way a rogue should play and is severely under powered in some aspects of PVE.

jedimaster91

I love my Rogue. It's a little more melee DPS than I typically like, but I love the stealth mechanic. I do spend more time dodging than fighting a lot of times, but I'm ok with that. Rogues are more harassers than brawlers. Frankly I don't care that much about the scoreboards. They create players who get too obsessed with being the top slot, but scoreboards don't take into account certain mechanics. There's no scoreboard for the player who CCs the most enemies or stuns the boss the most, but CC is just as vital as damage, tanking, or healing.

But for the love of all that is holy, can Rogues stop using Path of Blades? You know, the one that sprouts knives from the ground and aggros everything on the map? -_-

armadeonx

yankeethao#6964 said:

If I still think that the TR should be as great as the gwf to balance it out then there wouldn't be any use of the gwf which his ability is mainly about power. TR isn't about power as gwf, but critical. If u feel the need for power then u should consider a gwf, or else get more enchantments for power and get all your boon? The boons does help a lot. Especially it's also how u fix your feats too that makes your class better or not. If you u fix it right, any class will be as great, and as the best class of all. If u fix your feats wrongly or doesn't know how to fix your feat it will eventually make your strong class a weaker class and you expect it too. But do consider getting for enchants for power if u feel the need for more power.

That's not how I see class viability in NW. To my mind all DPS classes should be roughly equal in total damage output and gameplay & utility should be the differentiating factor.

For example, a GWF should be able to stand in the middle of a mob, hacking away and being the center of the fight. A TR should be creating confusion, striking and disappearing and hitting enemies from behind for much higher single strikes than the GWF IBS. As such I also believe a TR should receive double the benefit of combat advantage - the difference is in how the class survives in a fight and how useful they are to the group as a whole.

It's a fact of life in NW that when one class brings more overall benefit to a group than another, that other class will be shunned by players creating groups. The point when balancing classes is that they all bring something to the table that is useful to a 5 man T2 group.

As I said before, the issue with pvp is one simple factor - tenacity does not apply to piercing damage. This is where the ability to 1-shot properly geared players comes from and it's been brought up time and again on these forums. I've seen players from all dps classes 1-shot others who have no tenacity, that's part of the gearing-up experience... but once you get your pvp gear with it's tenacity rating you are supposed to take less damage and that is the case against all damage types except for one.

zheng

So after reading this I find it wierd how everyone is comparing the tr to gwf like how godly the gwf is. What the other dps classes? A gwf can 2x a tr, a hr will 3x dps the tr, and a sw will do 10x the dps of the tr, how come no one is talking about sw?

armadeonx

Because they are about to get nerfed

dadissk

null

Sorry guys that I haven't replied in way too long. Man this thread went massive. Of course I will post everything form feat to powers so maybe someone of you may help me but.

first of all I use a half orc for the 5% crit severity. My stats are as following:

26 STR
14 CON
27 DEX
14 INT
12 WIS
16 CHA

At the moment I have
12k power
5k crit
4k amour penetration
2k recovery
75 AP gain
500 Combat advantage

As for gear I use the lostmauth set still missing the Horn and the burning artifact weapon set with a terror enchantment until I can afford a vorpal. Ring of rising of power 4 and ring of brutality 4
My artifacts are
Sigil of the trickster
Kesslls spheres of annihilation
Belials portal stone
Heart of the red dragon
I know no lantern of revelation

I'm running the executioner path for shadow of demise those are the feats

Action advantage 5/5 : more action points when dealing damage in combat advantage

Weapon mastery 3/3: increased crit chance

Toughness 1/3: more HP

Cunning ambusher 3/3: more damage when leaving stealth

Endless assult 3/3 encounters deal more damage

Scoundrel training 3/3: at will more damage when enemy is not targeting you

Discipline of strength 2/3: more damage from strength

Executioner path

Arterial cut 5/5: increased crit severity while in stealth

Grim Pleasure 5/5: increased power after crit

Vicious pursuit 5/5: target gets more damage after dealing damage

Deathknell 5/5: more damage when target is below 30% HP

Last moments 5/5: more damage when target below 40% HP

Shadowborn: increased power of first attack when entering stealth

Shadow of demise 1/1

Scoundrel path

Rill with the punches 5/5: increased deflect chance

Press the advantage 5/5: impossible to catch increases power

To my powers

At will:

Sly flourish 4/4
Duelists flurry 4/4

Encounters:

Dazing strike 4/4
Lashing blade 4/4
Impossible to catch 3/4
Wicked reminder 4/4
Smoke bomb 4/4

Dailies

Lurkers assault 4/4
Whirlwind of blades 3/4
Courage breaker 4/4

Class features

Tenacious concealment 3/4
Tactics 3/4
Invisible infiltrators 4/4

As for rotations I usually try something like this:

Boss:
Duelists flurry 3 times to get the bleeding stacks to 10 then I use impossible to catch enter stealth dazing strike then I use my daily courage breaker enter stealth again and use lashing blade and fInish it of with some attacks with sly flourish

For mobs:
Smoke bomb to start things of then I enter stealth dazing strike use whirlwind of blades reenter stealth and use lashing blade on the biggest target.

My summoned companion is the mercenary my other actives are intellect devourer and some others that don't contribute much or that I don't really need

animereaper40

armadeonx said:

Because they are about to get nerfed

and yet on pc they still out dps everyclass lol even after the nerf

dadissk

Sure you are right although I think that GWF and SW both are very strong at the moment. That being said I don't want anything to get nerfed I think that TR just need a little bit more love. When you compare the two melee dps classes (not including the HR) the GWF is far superior to the TR and I don't know why. If the TR is a beast in PvP nerf him in PvP and PvP only.
Someone mentioned that the only reason to choose a dps class should be personal preference.

ltsmithneko

Umm... from reading this I saw mention of a HR dealing 3x a tr, and gwf only dealing 2x. A "good' gwf is on par with Sw's as long as they're not doing the one shot glitchy powers like they normally do. BTW a gwf is not just built for power we're built for 100% crits, but you must note a gwf is only a tanky dgm dealer thats it, he really doesn't bring CC or group buffs to the table, his strong point is Dmg, which currently the way it is, but yes there are a few decent TR's that can pass HR's dmg and fall behind a gwf, but that just makes sense a gwf is constantly hitting things its his job to do so.

zheng

I saw your spread sheet and how your tr is built, all I can say is a sw that's 200il lower than you with worse quality gear will 3x you still. Thank the game developers, sw getting buffed next patch lmao

zheng

Look, you seem like someone that's actually trying to play the game well instead of the norm casual players that like to make 10 lv70 1800il that can only run kessel. So I'll give some real honest advice if you want to run end game contents. Drop your tr now to save ad and time. Your build is generic as in like what most tr try to do for epic dungeons, your stats are very well rolled for a tr unlike most trs out there, but you know what? When you get your char to 3k il with legendary twisted. R10 rune stones on all offensive slots. Merc/fire archon with r9 + bonding stones. When your finally ready to run castlenever. Your gonna get passed up invites because everyone would rather take a sw that's lower level than you but still does 3x to 5x more times damage, that's just the real cold hard facts. There is no theory crafting or opinions here, that's just the way it is. It's not your fault the way the devs like to make classes like sw and hr that functions with no risk since they are not at melee range, but do 3x to 5x the dps of a tr.

And for those that argue a tr should be good in pve because it's good in pvp? That's a whole load of horse <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Did everyone forget how strong a hr is in pvp or did you guys just decide to troll the poster? Anyways I understand the posters frustration. But that's just the way the game is.

I didn't even understand people on this thread saying how op gwf is, do people just ignore all the other imbalances like sw or hr and focus all efforts to nerf tr and gwf?

theguiido

TR rework is coming don't worry. It's crazy too, because they used to be OP in PvE. They still are great if you know what you're doing, but none the less, TR rework is coming. Wont be for a while though.

zheng

When is rework coming? In 2 years?