Custom matches are what every other game out there do to be competitive
I dont know if I agree with this though Lancer. Look at Halo or Overwatch for example. They both do offer custom games (for no reward @Strumslinger, which is 100% fine with EVERY player in the game) but they ALSO offer "PVP Seasons" with a rank system... and the pvp seasons and ranking is what is competitive.
The biggest issue Neverwinter will have in doing PVP seasons is that (again) the item level difference. Normally this isnt a problem, however you need a large player base to support large player gear gap. Neverwinter doesnt have this. The population has to directly correlate to the size of gear gap allowable. This is why, PVP needs to be normalized somehow.
I am 100% for custom games with no rewards and allowing all stats - boons, you name it.
But the BEST thing this game could do to save PVP would be to strip boons, mount bonuses (not mounts), keep companions out of PVP. This is the closest thing NW could do to normalize PVP, and create the smallest possible gear gap.
Why this is so crucial is the sheer stat allocation available. In the past, you always had a choice between things like ARP and crit or power, or lifesteal, or HP etc. You had limited stat allocation, even with BIS gear. Nowadays you can get a TON of ARP and lifesteal and health, etc where there isnt a ton of "sacrifice" to get those things. This is why the power difference is so crucial. The extra 10-20k of stat points a BIS player has over a casual, means he can get ALL these things, without much loss, where the casual only can focus on 1 of those at the loss of others. So its not just like there is a small gap of damage or HP, it completely changes the game! You can have a 100% identical character, with the exception of say an extra 4k stats allocated towards lifesteal and ARP (as an example) and the contest isnt even close... The sheer power creep has enabled everyone to be good at everything, rather than having to be forced to choose what stats to stack carefully at a loss of others. This entire premise is what the new stat curves released with mod 6 was based on.... that stat allocation was more limited.
At the end of the day, what you need to do is get more of the player base involved in PVP, and try and bring more players into the game. Both of those will only be accomplished with a "normalization" of item power in PVP. New players will never stand a chance, and casual non PVPers dont even try anymore, since the power gap is too ridiculous.
Remove boons from PVP, remove mount bonuses, and keep companions out of PVP. This is the best thing that could happen to PVP, above class balance, above custom games, above even a proper matchmaking system! The issue that will always plague NW PVP is the low population of this game, combined with the low % of players that care about PVP due to item imbalance in PVP. To increase the % of people that play PVP, this is needed, and then you just have to hope that with a lower "ceiling" on PVP gear, itll draw in new players and draw back 'retired' players to the game, that can get back in with just a little investment and not feel like they are SO far from the gear ceiling.
@ayroux you're in the minority. Stripping boons and everything else you mentioned is a horrible idea. You don't even PvP anymore, you said so yourself. So please stop making a novel with the same argument in every response that you know what you're talking about.
Guild boons are fine, they are already deeply integrated into the game and are earned by a lot of grinding and hard work as a group effort. Companion active bonuses are not. Owl bears, shadow demons, blacksmiths etc. active bonuses have ruined any semblance of balance in SH siege or IWD due to insurmountable glitches. IMO they have no place in PvP at all.
Pvp can be salvaged by adding new maps, better rewards and completing the class balancing they have started with in mod 10. Private queues can be the beginning as it's a relatively simple mechanic to implement.
What's funny is Forsaken Worlds, another PWE game, which is almost a mirror image of Neverwinter except the lore is Asian instead of D & D has almost identical PvP mechanics game play wise, BUT with the options of multiple PvP modes including a 3v3, 6v6,more maps & modes lol
Taken directly from the description: Multiple PvP Modes | Take part in open-world PvP, duels, epic guild-vs-guild battles and Guild Bases, and ranked arena matches.
Just check it out on youtube, it's pretty much Neverwinter. So if they can get PvP right with a game that's been around longer then Neverwinter, how hard can it be to fix the issues with Neverwinter?
We have plans to try something out that may make this feel better.
@panderus If you dont want to go the route of boon removal for PVP, which btw @opalsuns I am not in the minority on, I have since posting talked to MANY BIS pvpers from my guild (Absolute) and nearly unanimously agree and multiple said they have been saying this for months now, but back to the point. If you want to fix PVP without mooting out boons here is what would have to be done.
1) Make ARP a 300:1 stat curve. When mod 6 came out at 200:1 it was much tougher to get high arp. Now a days, you get 2-4k on mounts or if you are in a decent guild can get easily between 4k-8k arp from just the ARP boon alone. Making it 300:1 or even 400:1 reduces the advantage if PVP builds > PVE builds in PVP, but also makes PVE just a "tab" harder since now it requires more stats. This also puts it more "on par" with other stats like crit or power that offer similar benefits for the same stat allowance.
2) Remove critical suppression from tenacity. Crit damage is already hurt from regular tenacity. Its DOUBLE impacted which is causing a huge divide between PVE and PVP where in PVE players stack up to 100% crit chance (GWFs) but in PVP crit is useless for most classes because crits actually deal LESS damage than non crits because of this. Removing critical suppression also reduces the advantage self healing has and increases the value of damage mitigation like Astral Shield for instance or higher health pools, or defense stat.
3) Endless Consumption needs to be changed to a 3-5% flat lifesteal % rather than doubling your effective lifesteal (1/3rd chance to proc a 3x heal). Frankly you can get creative with this and adjust its proc chance to 5% or 10% but overall one of the biggest issues PVE builds and casual builds have against BIS PVP builds is stat allocation for lifesteal. Making lifesteal % slightly easier to get, while making its "severity" not as much (in the form of just making this a flat %) will drastically help bridge the gap between PVE and PVP builds.
4) Piercing damage now needs to respect tenacity. With critical suppression removed, this should make things like Shocking Execution more "moot" since its crit damage deals full damage, but is now impact by tenacity %, making it a wash of sorts... So the net impact wont be a big damage nerf to things like that.
5) Since i doubt you are working on "dual spec" options. A respect needs to be cheap and easy to do - like costing 10 gold for instance. Without the ability to easily swap between PVE and PVP "loadouts" both on gear and boons, this will always be a HUGE turn off for most players to do PVP who end up resorting to Queing in PVE spec but merely swapping out 4-5 pieces of gear for tenacity and then get wrecked in PVP because their build sucks for it... Allowing for a cheap respec will give more incentive to actually spec towards PVP combined with the above stat changes I think this will go a LONG way....
6) Bring back the NCL. People need "incentive" to PVP. The NCL should be on revolving 2 month long "seasons". The leaderboard should be on a class basis, ONLY showing others of your own class - not comparing DCs to TRs for example. This moots out class imbalance some since each module some are always more OP than others giving those players an advantage when it comes to the leaderboards. I recall mod 3 having all TR/GWF/HR on page 1 and you had to scoll down 10 pages to find the #10th ranked DC for example... Rewards should be given to X players from each class.
Doing all this helps "bridge" the gap between PVE and PVPers to get more players total involved in PVP. One of the big issues is the "ideal stat allocation" for PVE and PVP are almost exact opposites. There will always be "best" builds that will be different. Making crits more important in PVP, will not only diminish lifesteals value, but also make crit stats more valuable for many. Increasing the ARP ratio makes that less appealing to stack, and players start looking towards crit/power as better solutions as well as incresing their EHP with more a focus on HP/Defense than maybe Lifesteal...
This is also why removing boons would help accomplish all these things... but addressing the core issues could also work without doing the boon removal....
@ayroux, yes, you are in the minority, and I have never heard of your guild. And please, stop writing a novel with the same thing, we get it. You want boons and everything else removed from PvP that a lot of us worked hard to get by playing the game. It's a horrible idea, and it's never gonna happen because it would kill the game, but I have a solution.
You want to play PvP with no boons and proper gear? Wait for the private que system that hopefully panderus will be able to implement. THEN you and your guildmates, and all these other BIS you have imagined that want no boons, or proper gear can all create new toons and rank them up to 70. Will take you a day or two of grinding. BUT, don't level the toons up with ANY boons, or proper gear. Go play your private que matches against each other. Problem solved chief. Enjoy.
Post edited by opalsuns on
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someonediesMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,257Arc User
Full dual-spec support: Features/Boons/Skills/ an extra PvP Gear pane etc; Delete OR Fix Tenacity: Piercing damage, Critical resistance etc; Fix GG/SHS/BID(BID queue, no?) events;
@ayroux, yes, you are in the minority, and I have never heard of your guild. And please, stop writing a novel with the same thing, we get it. You want boons and everything else removed from PvP that a lot of us worked hard to get by playing the game.
First, I have polled many current and retired players, I would say about 70-80% of the feedback was "yes, remove boons".
Second, You havnt heard of Absolute?! A max ranked guild? with maxed boons (all except 1 is only rank 9)... Im surprised. This tells me you ARE very new to the game. But read that again. I have ALL the boons and all the SH boons maxed. I stand to lose the MOST....
All my rank 12s, trans enchants, boons, I spent countless hours/days/weeks doing HEs/dailies/dungeons all for my guilds' SH.... I think you get the sense that this suggestion is coming from the "bottom -> up" and you see yourself ontop. I dont know if that is true or not, but 1 thing I can assure you, this suggestion has come from ONLY BIS players who have spent way more time and money on farming these things, than you have. Way more time in PVP over the life of this game, than you have....
I also get it, you come into this game, work hard, and then feel like itll all be marginalized and you lose your advantage. If you want to keep the status quo, and keep your earned power gap, go right ahead and ride this ship all the way down until there are 10 people left on the server that PVP. Me personally, am looking for a reason to come back to this game... the game I have played since it was in beta. The game I have posted nearly 4,000 times on the forums about....
But many of us dont. Many of us WANT this to be a good game and want the PVP to succeed... But it cant in its current form... @defiantone99 correctly identified all this below:
No, what keeps players away from PVP is THE GEAR GAP and lack of MATCHMAKING. Add to that Ambush and Drains and broken Tenacity that requires you to have absurd amounts of Armor Pen. Class balance has NOTHING to do with PVP dying, it is only a problem in BIS premades where getting your enemies nerfed is another form of PVP. Nobody wants to face PVP guild premades and be farmed every time they queue up, that is why it is dead. There has to be a removal of BIS players from the rest of the population, and matchmaking for everyone else. I understand that BIS players only care about what they want and the things that effect them. But there are others who want to enjoy PVP as well.
and to add to this, the BIS players who DONT want this, have likely stopped PVPing or Quit because its just not fun... you can only pug smash for so long because the game loses its appeal which is why many of us have retired from the game until we see a real investment into PVP from the DEVs and fixing the things that are broken...
@Lancer... You just seem high to me bro "Crits should do the same as non crits" Ive never seen a game ever treat things this way... thats like saying "headshots should do the same damage as a bodyshot"... It makes no sense.
Why critical suppression needs to go, if you dont want to remove boons, is because currently in PVE all the players stack uber crit and power. They have little need for much ARP. In PVP its the opposite. SO when a PVE player goes into PVP thinking they can do "uber deeps" cause they top the DPS charts and have 100% crit chance, they get melted and do no damage because they have no self sustain and no EHP and DONT do uber damage.
You need to try and find a way to "merge" the PVE and PVP "ideal stats" so that a good PVE player CAN come into PVP and do good damage, he just doesnt have good sustain, and vice versa. Crits SHOULD do more damage than non crits. Adjusting this, also marginalizes self healing as players could be burst down much more easily. So it "lessens" the gear gap, not in the sense that stats are higher/lower but it reduces the impact of "self sustain" stats and puts more value on higher crit, which is what PVE players stack anyways.
Now to combat someone doing 500k crits, you adjust the BASE level of tenacity. IF its at 45% DR, you bump that to 55% or 60%. But having a double modifier on crit is just lazy and stupid. The fact its double nerfed is silly... First with crit suppression and second with regular DR. Getting PVE and PVP stats to "alling" in priority will encourage more PVE players to PVP as it will make their characters more suited for it versus right now its 100% opposite what stats to stack, unless you are a TR and basically just want a bajillion power...
@ayroux, yes, you are in the minority, and I have never heard of your guild. And please, stop writing a novel with the same thing, we get it. You want boons and everything else removed from PvP that a lot of us worked hard to get by playing the game.
First, I have polled many current and retired players, I would say about 70-80% of the feedback was "yes, remove boons".
Second, You havnt heard of Absolute?! A max ranked guild? with maxed boons (all except 1 is only rank 9)... Im surprised. This tells me you ARE very new to the game. But read that again. I have ALL the boons and all the SH boons maxed. I stand to lose the MOST....
All my rank 12s, trans enchants, boons, I spent countless hours/days/weeks doing HEs/dailies/dungeons all for my guilds' SH.... I think you get the sense that this suggestion is coming from the "bottom -> up" and you see yourself ontop. I dont know if that is true or not, but 1 thing I can assure you, this suggestion has come from ONLY BIS players who have spent way more time and money on farming these things, than you have. Way more time in PVP over the life of this game, than you have....
I also get it, you come into this game, work hard, and then feel like itll all be marginalized and you lose your advantage. If you want to keep the status quo, and keep your earned power gap, go right ahead and ride this ship all the way down until there are 10 people left on the server that PVP. Me personally, am looking for a reason to come back to this game... the game I have played since it was in beta. The game I have posted nearly 4,000 times on the forums about....
But many of us dont. Many of us WANT this to be a good game and want the PVP to succeed... But it cant in its current form... @defiantone99 correctly identified all this below:
No, what keeps players away from PVP is THE GEAR GAP and lack of MATCHMAKING. Add to that Ambush and Drains and broken Tenacity that requires you to have absurd amounts of Armor Pen. Class balance has NOTHING to do with PVP dying, it is only a problem in BIS premades where getting your enemies nerfed is another form of PVP. Nobody wants to face PVP guild premades and be farmed every time they queue up, that is why it is dead. There has to be a removal of BIS players from the rest of the population, and matchmaking for everyone else. I understand that BIS players only care about what they want and the things that effect them. But there are others who want to enjoy PVP as well.
and to add to this, the BIS players who DONT want this, have likely stopped PVPing or Quit because its just not fun... you can only pug smash for so long because the game loses its appeal which is why many of us have retired from the game until we see a real investment into PVP from the DEVs and fixing the things that are broken...
@Lancer... You just seem high to me bro "Crits should do the same as non crits" Ive never seen a game ever treat things this way... thats like saying "headshots should do the same damage as a bodyshot"... It makes no sense.
Why critical suppression needs to go, if you dont want to remove boons, is because currently in PVE all the players stack uber crit and power. They have little need for much ARP. In PVP its the opposite. SO when a PVE player goes into PVP thinking they can do "uber deeps" cause they top the DPS charts and have 100% crit chance, they get melted and do no damage because they have no self sustain and no EHP and DONT do uber damage.
You need to try and find a way to "merge" the PVE and PVP "ideal stats" so that a good PVE player CAN come into PVP and do good damage, he just doesnt have good sustain, and vice versa. Crits SHOULD do more damage than non crits. Adjusting this, also marginalizes self healing as players could be burst down much more easily. So it "lessens" the gear gap, not in the sense that stats are higher/lower but it reduces the impact of "self sustain" stats and puts more value on higher crit, which is what PVE players stack anyways.
Now to combat someone doing 500k crits, you adjust the BASE level of tenacity. IF its at 45% DR, you bump that to 55% or 60%. But having a double modifier on crit is just lazy and stupid. The fact its double nerfed is silly... First with crit suppression and second with regular DR. Getting PVE and PVP stats to "alling" in priority will encourage more PVE players to PVP as it will make their characters more suited for it versus right now its 100% opposite what stats to stack, unless you are a TR and basically just want a bajillion power...
lmao you realize some players on here aren't PC players, right? so don't blame and assume anything about anyone being "new".
lmao you realize some players on here aren't PC players, right? so don't blame and assume anything about anyone being "new".
Any non-PC player is new by definition. Xbox didnt come out till module 6 was out on PC and Xbox was on module 5. The PC game had been going for what, 2 years prior to that? But it doesn't matter, its "relatively new". Its not meant to dismiss what he is saying by anymeans, but was something I had questioned earlier, but more and more I read the posts supports that theory. I could be wrong. But I also dont disagree with him based on that, I layed out my arguments/points. On the contrary, he is the one on page 1 who dismissed what I had to say ignorantly
How the damage works in this game for the sake of class balance having crit deal the same damage as non crit is for the greater good, ofc crit damage is enhanced in pvp by pots,boons etc and vorpal/dread which makes it be higher than non crit. But for the sake of balance tenacity is a must have, and double nerfed ? It is 45 % by crit resistance and then it's the tenacity dr that ia 45% of ur max dr%
But this shouldnt be the case. It might be NOW that we are backed into a corner. In an ideal work crits should deal MINIMALLY 25%+ more damage than non crits. You cant say "with postions/boons blah blah" that just proves my point further man. It requires all these things to make crit SLIGHTLY worth more than non crit.
No. What they need to do is increase the base tenacity DR to like 60% so all base damage does much less, and then adjust ARP ratio like I said, so people attack with less ARP for the stats they have now (or even just adjust ARP so it cant take you negative values like it does) and then remove crit suppression. If they need to adjust crit damage DOWN to 1.25 as the base multiplier (from 1.75) so be it. Atleast crits will always do much more damage than non crits, which is what it should be..... What you have today Lancer, is a "bump" in non crit damage comapred to what it should be and an over nerf of what crit damage should be. Base damage needs to be dropped down to leave room for crits to increase.
If you did as I suggested. moved base tenacity DR values up to say 25%, which then with "BIS gear" would be at 60% tenacity total. this would be roughly a 28% damage reduction across the board to all non crits. Then you could remove crit suppression and crits would do more damage than non crits.
Again, this reduces the value of self healing in PVP as the game returns to more of a "burst" game. Which also promotes more PVE players since they usually have gear/items/enchants that focus around crit damage. How many PVE players run Vorpal versus PVP players...
If PVP is to succeed long term, you should be focusing on long term changes. Trying to find ways to get more of the population into PVP and bring in NEW players to the game and also bring back old players. This will only be done, by taking focus off gear gap, lessening the divide between PVE and PVP players...
The changes I suggested above are what needs fixing if that is to happen. Or the short/easy road to this would be to remove boons from PVP, as I and others have agreed, would fix the problem over night. You do that and host an NCL, you will see 10-20x the population in PVP as you have now.
Seems like some players still don't get that "gear gap" is affected by SH boons too.
As i talked with @ayroux about this: Gear gap pre mod2 was only made by enchants. Nowadays, not only enchants have their own "wall" but also artifacts, legendary sets and weapon sets have their own walls too. Now, boons not aviable for everyone (SH boons) are also part of the problem, together other things that not all player can reach/work/buy/craft/etc.
If we do eally want to make the gear gap smaller, we need to "remove" the walls around those sets. Period. Class balance is another issue on which we should work AFTER all players can reach into "BiS" ranks
This exactly. The response to this I get from players who still dont quite understand the impact is, "Well things like boons reduce the gear gap, since before them, the difference between rank 7s and 10s was a huge gap, now the difference in enchants is much smaller" The problem with this is, as I have outlined the "efficient" PVE builds require completely different stats than the PVP builds. Not to mention the 4k stat mounts or other mounts that are millions of dollars, create a massive difference.
When you total the boons, which I have guesstimated to be about 14k of stats. SH boons add another 16k (offensive and defense only as the others dont matter as much), Mounts = 4k stats.
So you have easily over 34k in stats there. That is such a MASSIVE gap from a casual to a BIS player.... The other issue too is that builds have an exponential curve in that someone with 34k bonus stats gets a TREMENDOUS amount of "power" more than a guy who has say, 10k of SH boons, 12k of individual boons and 2k mount. He gets 24k of stats... Thats a MASSIVE gap.
Then you include things like the stats Mythic gear/artifacts have over legendary... It all adds up to thousands upon thousands of stats. Going from 8k ARP to 13k ARP is Huge.... Going from 4k Lifesteal to 8k lifesteal is HUGE! Going from 120k HP to 160k HP is HUGE... These are all the things that these stats allow you to do. So where a casual might only have enough stats to award him good ARp and a decent HP pool, the "BIS" player gets those things but also gets the allocation to get good lifesteal, etc.
But its not just that.... Lets even take the best PVE players and say they have all those stats.... Do you think a GWF does PVE with 150k+ HP? No They put all the extra stats, offensive slots, etc all into things like Power/Crit. They forget defense/deflect/HP/Lifesteal because its not as needed in PVE. So all their "34k in stats" goes towards offensive power, that because they stack crit... offers NO advantage in PVP because crits dont Do ANYTHING more than non crits... See the problem? They lost all their defensive stats, because they are irrelevant in PVE, and they are also irrelevant in PVP too. Sure a PVP player cant do the DPS they can in dungeons, but content is to easy because everyone outgears the content you dont need a BIS PVE player to do it. So even "above average" PVP players can take their tenacity gear, their PVP spec, and PVP items and high defensive stats into PVE and do just fine. But it doesnt work the other way.... This needs to change IMO. Crit is the #1 culprit of this. If crit mattered more in PVP, it would be 1 step towards bridging the gap. Or the other option. When you remove boons, it removes 34k of stats which means the power gap from a PVE to PVP player is MUCH smaller. They both are "weaker" in comparison however the power difference between them in much smaller.
@ayroux, I am on Xbox, and I have been playing since Day 1, far from "new" to the game since it's going on over a year and half at this point.
There's not one person on Neverwinter Xbox who wants boons removed. Your poll that you took has zero basis, it's a poll from PC which has a few thousand players.
You do realize that the Xbox player base is much much larger then PC at this point?
@ayroux, I am on Xbox, and I have been playing since Day 1, far from "new" to the game since it's going on over a year and half at this point.
There's not one person on Neverwinter Xbox who wants boons removed. Your poll that you took has zero basis, it's a poll from PC which has a few thousand players.
You do realize that the Xbox player base is much much larger then PC at this point?
Ill work my way up.
You should listen to the PC players, because its where Xbox will be shortly if it continues. Neverwinter USED to have a great PC player base. Each and every module... Each and every month, the problem became bigger and bigger... Gear Divide... If Xbox is the same game (which I have reason to believe it isnt 100% identical) it will eventually lead where NW PC is today: Dead. Even a quick search in the Xbox threads has topics like "game is dying" etc...
So did you "poll" everyone on xbox? since that is what you just said "not one person" I have a suspicion the Xbox game is not plagued with ALL the same economy concerns the PC version is, from being around much longer... With PC there was a crowd who got rich early on back in old school module days. You could run CN and get a GWF weapon and sell it for 1M+ and get rich from dungeon runs. Then there was the auto-professions that people would do leadership on computers that would generate 100k,200k,500k,1M+ per day on... That just ruined the economy. Thus the "BIS" players are literally in every sense of the word, "BIS". I have a suspicion the average population base on xbox is probably lower itemlevel in total than the average player on PC due to that fact. I bet you have a few players who paid and have BIS gear and dominate pretty good, but the majority finds themselves in a "sweet spot" of gear without being outgeared by many but not quite breaching that "Uber Power" zone where 1 GWF can kill an entire team of enemies... Here is an example (FF to 2:39ish): https://youtu.be/0zh5xSSHRgE?t=159 Now that was module 6, so its not "quite" the same as today, but its basically the same story, not a ton has changed since then with regards to power over the "common player"... Its not even a competition... Its boring.
I didnt poll everyplayer in PC... I polled close friends/guildmates who both still play and a few that have quit asking what it would take to fix this game. The consensus was that the itemgap is too large and removing boons would be a good step. I also gave alternative options to fixing PVP if you want to dive into more issues...
I could be wrong, im not saying om omniscient, but Ive played this game for years and years. From Beta, through all the modules until about 6 months ago when they rolled out the stealth rings, which killed it for me after doing PVP with how troll those were...
Why I say you lack some perspective, and I lack your perspective, is you didnt see what this game was like back in module 0 or pre module 1. The game was as close to perfect as you could get. Module 1 wasnt even bad either... It was great. No artifact equipment, no artifacts, no boons even until module 1, the BIS gear was earned through CN runs. CN run rings were "BIS rings" for many. CN weapons were "BIS".... The only bad thing about mod 0 was tenebrous enchants dealt piercing damage. So an average player might have between 23-28k HP back then, you could tickle them with your at will and they would all go off for like 8k damage. It was OP.
But aside from that, the game was perfect. The only major "bugs" or issues with the game were in PVE dungeons and wall hopping through stuff for fast runs... But you did dungeons for gear, or AD to buy your gear, and then PVPd with a super balanced game. No tenacity even, go figure! As it wasnt needed. the BEST PVP gear was the BEST PVE gear! Imagine that! and was obtained from running dungeons!
Every module has be a digress more and more from that initial formula. Now you have boons that give you more stats than your gear does. You have items that are very difficult to get if you didnt already have a fortune to start (mythic artifacts/artifact equipment) you have mounts that are super expensive that give more stats than multiple rank 12s combined... You have a colossal "gear gap" between PVE players and PVP players. Each module they release content from, now requires TWICE the work, since the PVPers wont care about PVE stuff and likely vice versa.
What they should be looking to do, is go back to the formula that worked the best. Modules 0-2. Boons were insignificant at that point and if I recall gave like +150 points or +200 points? They were easy to get, so a new player could come in, do a few Tier 1 dungeons and get GOOD pvp gear, get a new BIS weapon from CN (mods 1-2) or a BIG weapon from CN (mod 0) and use even rank 7s/8s and have 100% fighting chance in PVP, even PVE specced....
The game has fallen hard. Maybe thats why I am the way I am... You werent there when it shined in all its glory.. when it was near perfect.... You came in during module 5? When the game was already VERY bad, with artifacts, artifact equipment, horrible class balance... and then module 6 was just a massive cluster F up for the game. It was the chance to wipe away all the filth of all that HAMSTER, and nothing.... Then further down the rabbit hole it has come.
Anyways ill stop rambling now. It likely wont matter since I have learned over the years of posting that most DEVs and CMs dont read past the first page anyways. So this will be my last post in this thread. I may or may not post more elsewhere. A small part of me still holds out this game could be magnificent again, each week that goes by that small piece gets smaller and smaller.... Best of luck friend! Hope Xbox NW doesnt follow in its big brother's footsteps and end up with you as sour as I am about the state of the game, thinking back to its "glory days" and all they could do to restore it!
@ayroux, no I should not listen to the PC players. Listening to you would make PvP a mess.
And stop writing a novel with every response.
All we need are private ques. End of story.
Let's see what will happend when you wait for 2 hours to get a premade fight vs another premade team...
Also, you should listen to us, not to players from Xbox or PS4: they don't have our "ways" and experience on these matters.
We have that issue now!
That's the whole point of a private que system.
If PWE can make a private que system that works, there won't be a two hour wait. Just like making a private que to go into a dungeon, once the que is filled for a private match it's instant.
That's the whole point of making a private que, so 10 players can privately play each other in a 5v5 for as and as many matches as they want.
Comments
The biggest issue Neverwinter will have in doing PVP seasons is that (again) the item level difference. Normally this isnt a problem, however you need a large player base to support large player gear gap. Neverwinter doesnt have this. The population has to directly correlate to the size of gear gap allowable. This is why, PVP needs to be normalized somehow.
I am 100% for custom games with no rewards and allowing all stats - boons, you name it.
But the BEST thing this game could do to save PVP would be to strip boons, mount bonuses (not mounts), keep companions out of PVP. This is the closest thing NW could do to normalize PVP, and create the smallest possible gear gap.
Why this is so crucial is the sheer stat allocation available. In the past, you always had a choice between things like ARP and crit or power, or lifesteal, or HP etc. You had limited stat allocation, even with BIS gear. Nowadays you can get a TON of ARP and lifesteal and health, etc where there isnt a ton of "sacrifice" to get those things. This is why the power difference is so crucial. The extra 10-20k of stat points a BIS player has over a casual, means he can get ALL these things, without much loss, where the casual only can focus on 1 of those at the loss of others. So its not just like there is a small gap of damage or HP, it completely changes the game! You can have a 100% identical character, with the exception of say an extra 4k stats allocated towards lifesteal and ARP (as an example) and the contest isnt even close... The sheer power creep has enabled everyone to be good at everything, rather than having to be forced to choose what stats to stack carefully at a loss of others. This entire premise is what the new stat curves released with mod 6 was based on.... that stat allocation was more limited.
At the end of the day, what you need to do is get more of the player base involved in PVP, and try and bring more players into the game. Both of those will only be accomplished with a "normalization" of item power in PVP. New players will never stand a chance, and casual non PVPers dont even try anymore, since the power gap is too ridiculous.
Remove boons from PVP, remove mount bonuses, and keep companions out of PVP. This is the best thing that could happen to PVP, above class balance, above custom games, above even a proper matchmaking system! The issue that will always plague NW PVP is the low population of this game, combined with the low % of players that care about PVP due to item imbalance in PVP. To increase the % of people that play PVP, this is needed, and then you just have to hope that with a lower "ceiling" on PVP gear, itll draw in new players and draw back 'retired' players to the game, that can get back in with just a little investment and not feel like they are SO far from the gear ceiling.
@theguiido
opalsunsParagon Gaming
Pvp can be salvaged by adding new maps, better rewards and completing the class balancing they have started with in mod 10. Private queues can be the beginning as it's a relatively simple mechanic to implement.
Taken directly from the description:
Multiple PvP Modes | Take part in open-world PvP, duels, epic guild-vs-guild battles and Guild Bases, and ranked arena matches.
Just check it out on youtube, it's pretty much Neverwinter.
So if they can get PvP right with a game that's been around longer then Neverwinter, how hard can it be to fix the issues with Neverwinter?
Mind blowing.
opalsunsParagon Gaming
If you dont want to go the route of boon removal for PVP, which btw @opalsuns I am not in the minority on, I have since posting talked to MANY BIS pvpers from my guild (Absolute) and nearly unanimously agree and multiple said they have been saying this for months now, but back to the point. If you want to fix PVP without mooting out boons here is what would have to be done.
1) Make ARP a 300:1 stat curve. When mod 6 came out at 200:1 it was much tougher to get high arp. Now a days, you get 2-4k on mounts or if you are in a decent guild can get easily between 4k-8k arp from just the ARP boon alone. Making it 300:1 or even 400:1 reduces the advantage if PVP builds > PVE builds in PVP, but also makes PVE just a "tab" harder since now it requires more stats. This also puts it more "on par" with other stats like crit or power that offer similar benefits for the same stat allowance.
2) Remove critical suppression from tenacity. Crit damage is already hurt from regular tenacity. Its DOUBLE impacted which is causing a huge divide between PVE and PVP where in PVE players stack up to 100% crit chance (GWFs) but in PVP crit is useless for most classes because crits actually deal LESS damage than non crits because of this. Removing critical suppression also reduces the advantage self healing has and increases the value of damage mitigation like Astral Shield for instance or higher health pools, or defense stat.
3) Endless Consumption needs to be changed to a 3-5% flat lifesteal % rather than doubling your effective lifesteal (1/3rd chance to proc a 3x heal). Frankly you can get creative with this and adjust its proc chance to 5% or 10% but overall one of the biggest issues PVE builds and casual builds have against BIS PVP builds is stat allocation for lifesteal. Making lifesteal % slightly easier to get, while making its "severity" not as much (in the form of just making this a flat %) will drastically help bridge the gap between PVE and PVP builds.
4) Piercing damage now needs to respect tenacity. With critical suppression removed, this should make things like Shocking Execution more "moot" since its crit damage deals full damage, but is now impact by tenacity %, making it a wash of sorts... So the net impact wont be a big damage nerf to things like that.
5) Since i doubt you are working on "dual spec" options. A respect needs to be cheap and easy to do - like costing 10 gold for instance. Without the ability to easily swap between PVE and PVP "loadouts" both on gear and boons, this will always be a HUGE turn off for most players to do PVP who end up resorting to Queing in PVE spec but merely swapping out 4-5 pieces of gear for tenacity and then get wrecked in PVP because their build sucks for it... Allowing for a cheap respec will give more incentive to actually spec towards PVP combined with the above stat changes I think this will go a LONG way....
6) Bring back the NCL. People need "incentive" to PVP. The NCL should be on revolving 2 month long "seasons". The leaderboard should be on a class basis, ONLY showing others of your own class - not comparing DCs to TRs for example. This moots out class imbalance some since each module some are always more OP than others giving those players an advantage when it comes to the leaderboards. I recall mod 3 having all TR/GWF/HR on page 1 and you had to scoll down 10 pages to find the #10th ranked DC for example... Rewards should be given to X players from each class.
Doing all this helps "bridge" the gap between PVE and PVPers to get more players total involved in PVP. One of the big issues is the "ideal stat allocation" for PVE and PVP are almost exact opposites. There will always be "best" builds that will be different. Making crits more important in PVP, will not only diminish lifesteals value, but also make crit stats more valuable for many. Increasing the ARP ratio makes that less appealing to stack, and players start looking towards crit/power as better solutions as well as incresing their EHP with more a focus on HP/Defense than maybe Lifesteal...
This is also why removing boons would help accomplish all these things... but addressing the core issues could also work without doing the boon removal....
@ayroux, yes, you are in the minority, and I have never heard of your guild.
And please, stop writing a novel with the same thing, we get it.
You want boons and everything else removed from PvP that a lot of us worked hard to get by playing the game.
It's a horrible idea, and it's never gonna happen because it would kill the game, but I have a solution.
You want to play PvP with no boons and proper gear?
Wait for the private que system that hopefully panderus will be able to implement.
THEN you and your guildmates, and all these other BIS you have imagined that want no boons, or proper gear can all create new toons and rank them up to 70. Will take you a day or two of grinding.
BUT, don't level the toons up with ANY boons, or proper gear.
Go play your private que matches against each other.
Problem solved chief.
Enjoy.
opalsunsParagon Gaming
Delete OR Fix Tenacity: Piercing damage, Critical resistance etc;
Fix GG/SHS/BID(BID queue, no?) events;
and please..... introduce a new domination map.
Dead🔪Second, You havnt heard of Absolute?! A max ranked guild? with maxed boons (all except 1 is only rank 9)... Im surprised. This tells me you ARE very new to the game. But read that again. I have ALL the boons and all the SH boons maxed. I stand to lose the MOST....
All my rank 12s, trans enchants, boons, I spent countless hours/days/weeks doing HEs/dailies/dungeons all for my guilds' SH.... I think you get the sense that this suggestion is coming from the "bottom -> up" and you see yourself ontop. I dont know if that is true or not, but 1 thing I can assure you, this suggestion has come from ONLY BIS players who have spent way more time and money on farming these things, than you have. Way more time in PVP over the life of this game, than you have....
I also get it, you come into this game, work hard, and then feel like itll all be marginalized and you lose your advantage. If you want to keep the status quo, and keep your earned power gap, go right ahead and ride this ship all the way down until there are 10 people left on the server that PVP. Me personally, am looking for a reason to come back to this game... the game I have played since it was in beta. The game I have posted nearly 4,000 times on the forums about....
But many of us dont. Many of us WANT this to be a good game and want the PVP to succeed... But it cant in its current form... @defiantone99 correctly identified all this below: and to add to this, the BIS players who DONT want this, have likely stopped PVPing or Quit because its just not fun... you can only pug smash for so long because the game loses its appeal which is why many of us have retired from the game until we see a real investment into PVP from the DEVs and fixing the things that are broken...
@Lancer... You just seem high to me bro "Crits should do the same as non crits" Ive never seen a game ever treat things this way... thats like saying "headshots should do the same damage as a bodyshot"... It makes no sense.
Why critical suppression needs to go, if you dont want to remove boons, is because currently in PVE all the players stack uber crit and power. They have little need for much ARP. In PVP its the opposite. SO when a PVE player goes into PVP thinking they can do "uber deeps" cause they top the DPS charts and have 100% crit chance, they get melted and do no damage because they have no self sustain and no EHP and DONT do uber damage.
You need to try and find a way to "merge" the PVE and PVP "ideal stats" so that a good PVE player CAN come into PVP and do good damage, he just doesnt have good sustain, and vice versa. Crits SHOULD do more damage than non crits. Adjusting this, also marginalizes self healing as players could be burst down much more easily. So it "lessens" the gear gap, not in the sense that stats are higher/lower but it reduces the impact of "self sustain" stats and puts more value on higher crit, which is what PVE players stack anyways.
Now to combat someone doing 500k crits, you adjust the BASE level of tenacity. IF its at 45% DR, you bump that to 55% or 60%. But having a double modifier on crit is just lazy and stupid. The fact its double nerfed is silly... First with crit suppression and second with regular DR. Getting PVE and PVP stats to "alling" in priority will encourage more PVE players to PVP as it will make their characters more suited for it versus right now its 100% opposite what stats to stack, unless you are a TR and basically just want a bajillion power...
Guardian Fighter
TLO
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1221446/the-future-of-the-gf/p1 Existing Problems Still In The Guardian Fighter
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/comment/12984912m
Feat Changes I'd like to see in The Guardian Fighter
No. What they need to do is increase the base tenacity DR to like 60% so all base damage does much less, and then adjust ARP ratio like I said, so people attack with less ARP for the stats they have now (or even just adjust ARP so it cant take you negative values like it does) and then remove crit suppression. If they need to adjust crit damage DOWN to 1.25 as the base multiplier (from 1.75) so be it. Atleast crits will always do much more damage than non crits, which is what it should be..... What you have today Lancer, is a "bump" in non crit damage comapred to what it should be and an over nerf of what crit damage should be. Base damage needs to be dropped down to leave room for crits to increase.
If you did as I suggested. moved base tenacity DR values up to say 25%, which then with "BIS gear" would be at 60% tenacity total. this would be roughly a 28% damage reduction across the board to all non crits. Then you could remove crit suppression and crits would do more damage than non crits.
Again, this reduces the value of self healing in PVP as the game returns to more of a "burst" game. Which also promotes more PVE players since they usually have gear/items/enchants that focus around crit damage. How many PVE players run Vorpal versus PVP players...
If PVP is to succeed long term, you should be focusing on long term changes. Trying to find ways to get more of the population into PVP and bring in NEW players to the game and also bring back old players. This will only be done, by taking focus off gear gap, lessening the divide between PVE and PVP players...
The changes I suggested above are what needs fixing if that is to happen. Or the short/easy road to this would be to remove boons from PVP, as I and others have agreed, would fix the problem over night. You do that and host an NCL, you will see 10-20x the population in PVP as you have now.
When you total the boons, which I have guesstimated to be about 14k of stats.
SH boons add another 16k (offensive and defense only as the others dont matter as much), Mounts = 4k stats.
So you have easily over 34k in stats there. That is such a MASSIVE gap from a casual to a BIS player.... The other issue too is that builds have an exponential curve in that someone with 34k bonus stats gets a TREMENDOUS amount of "power" more than a guy who has say, 10k of SH boons, 12k of individual boons and 2k mount. He gets 24k of stats... Thats a MASSIVE gap.
Then you include things like the stats Mythic gear/artifacts have over legendary... It all adds up to thousands upon thousands of stats. Going from 8k ARP to 13k ARP is Huge.... Going from 4k Lifesteal to 8k lifesteal is HUGE! Going from 120k HP to 160k HP is HUGE... These are all the things that these stats allow you to do. So where a casual might only have enough stats to award him good ARp and a decent HP pool, the "BIS" player gets those things but also gets the allocation to get good lifesteal, etc.
But its not just that.... Lets even take the best PVE players and say they have all those stats.... Do you think a GWF does PVE with 150k+ HP? No They put all the extra stats, offensive slots, etc all into things like Power/Crit. They forget defense/deflect/HP/Lifesteal because its not as needed in PVE. So all their "34k in stats" goes towards offensive power, that because they stack crit... offers NO advantage in PVP because crits dont Do ANYTHING more than non crits... See the problem? They lost all their defensive stats, because they are irrelevant in PVE, and they are also irrelevant in PVP too. Sure a PVP player cant do the DPS they can in dungeons, but content is to easy because everyone outgears the content you dont need a BIS PVE player to do it. So even "above average" PVP players can take their tenacity gear, their PVP spec, and PVP items and high defensive stats into PVE and do just fine. But it doesnt work the other way.... This needs to change IMO. Crit is the #1 culprit of this. If crit mattered more in PVP, it would be 1 step towards bridging the gap. Or the other option. When you remove boons, it removes 34k of stats which means the power gap from a PVE to PVP player is MUCH smaller. They both are "weaker" in comparison however the power difference between them in much smaller.
There's not one person on Neverwinter Xbox who wants boons removed.
Your poll that you took has zero basis, it's a poll from PC which has a few thousand players.
You do realize that the Xbox player base is much much larger then PC at this point?
opalsunsParagon Gaming
You should listen to the PC players, because its where Xbox will be shortly if it continues. Neverwinter USED to have a great PC player base. Each and every module... Each and every month, the problem became bigger and bigger... Gear Divide... If Xbox is the same game (which I have reason to believe it isnt 100% identical) it will eventually lead where NW PC is today: Dead. Even a quick search in the Xbox threads has topics like "game is dying" etc...
So did you "poll" everyone on xbox? since that is what you just said "not one person" I have a suspicion the Xbox game is not plagued with ALL the same economy concerns the PC version is, from being around much longer... With PC there was a crowd who got rich early on back in old school module days. You could run CN and get a GWF weapon and sell it for 1M+ and get rich from dungeon runs. Then there was the auto-professions that people would do leadership on computers that would generate 100k,200k,500k,1M+ per day on... That just ruined the economy. Thus the "BIS" players are literally in every sense of the word, "BIS". I have a suspicion the average population base on xbox is probably lower itemlevel in total than the average player on PC due to that fact. I bet you have a few players who paid and have BIS gear and dominate pretty good, but the majority finds themselves in a "sweet spot" of gear without being outgeared by many but not quite breaching that "Uber Power" zone where 1 GWF can kill an entire team of enemies... Here is an example (FF to 2:39ish):
Now that was module 6, so its not "quite" the same as today, but its basically the same story, not a ton has changed since then with regards to power over the "common player"... Its not even a competition... Its boring.
I didnt poll everyplayer in PC... I polled close friends/guildmates who both still play and a few that have quit asking what it would take to fix this game. The consensus was that the itemgap is too large and removing boons would be a good step. I also gave alternative options to fixing PVP if you want to dive into more issues...
I could be wrong, im not saying om omniscient, but Ive played this game for years and years. From Beta, through all the modules until about 6 months ago when they rolled out the stealth rings, which killed it for me after doing PVP with how troll those were...
Why I say you lack some perspective, and I lack your perspective, is you didnt see what this game was like back in module 0 or pre module 1. The game was as close to perfect as you could get. Module 1 wasnt even bad either... It was great. No artifact equipment, no artifacts, no boons even until module 1, the BIS gear was earned through CN runs. CN run rings were "BIS rings" for many. CN weapons were "BIS".... The only bad thing about mod 0 was tenebrous enchants dealt piercing damage. So an average player might have between 23-28k HP back then, you could tickle them with your at will and they would all go off for like 8k damage. It was OP.
But aside from that, the game was perfect. The only major "bugs" or issues with the game were in PVE dungeons and wall hopping through stuff for fast runs... But you did dungeons for gear, or AD to buy your gear, and then PVPd with a super balanced game. No tenacity even, go figure! As it wasnt needed. the BEST PVP gear was the BEST PVE gear! Imagine that! and was obtained from running dungeons!
Every module has be a digress more and more from that initial formula. Now you have boons that give you more stats than your gear does. You have items that are very difficult to get if you didnt already have a fortune to start (mythic artifacts/artifact equipment) you have mounts that are super expensive that give more stats than multiple rank 12s combined... You have a colossal "gear gap" between PVE players and PVP players. Each module they release content from, now requires TWICE the work, since the PVPers wont care about PVE stuff and likely vice versa.
What they should be looking to do, is go back to the formula that worked the best. Modules 0-2. Boons were insignificant at that point and if I recall gave like +150 points or +200 points? They were easy to get, so a new player could come in, do a few Tier 1 dungeons and get GOOD pvp gear, get a new BIS weapon from CN (mods 1-2) or a BIG weapon from CN (mod 0) and use even rank 7s/8s and have 100% fighting chance in PVP, even PVE specced....
The game has fallen hard. Maybe thats why I am the way I am... You werent there when it shined in all its glory.. when it was near perfect.... You came in during module 5? When the game was already VERY bad, with artifacts, artifact equipment, horrible class balance... and then module 6 was just a massive cluster F up for the game. It was the chance to wipe away all the filth of all that HAMSTER, and nothing.... Then further down the rabbit hole it has come.
Anyways ill stop rambling now. It likely wont matter since I have learned over the years of posting that most DEVs and CMs dont read past the first page anyways. So this will be my last post in this thread. I may or may not post more elsewhere. A small part of me still holds out this game could be magnificent again, each week that goes by that small piece gets smaller and smaller.... Best of luck friend! Hope Xbox NW doesnt follow in its big brother's footsteps and end up with you as sour as I am about the state of the game, thinking back to its "glory days" and all they could do to restore it!
Listening to you would make PvP a mess.
And stop writing a novel with every response.
All we need are private ques.
End of story.
opalsunsParagon Gaming
That's the whole point of a private que system.
If PWE can make a private que system that works, there won't be a two hour wait.
Just like making a private que to go into a dungeon, once the que is filled for a private match it's instant.
That's the whole point of making a private que, so 10 players can privately play each other in a 5v5 for as and as many matches as they want.
That gives the pugs a break on a normal que.
opalsunsParagon Gaming