Need a tank for blahblah oops not a paladin.

algaefree

We are so undesirable right now. I'm a 3119 il and groups go for the 2400 il gf BEFORE me. I never wish bad things for other classes, but I can't wait for the nerf to GF. I totally understand why they go for the buff its just too good and we have nothing that compares to it. Anyhow just frustrated right now I made my paladin post bubble nerf and it feels like I wasted 3 months of my RL time.

Unknown

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urabask

Just get in a good guild. In THC/TUC we have enough geared people in the alliance that I just take whoever +s up first. Having a GF is nice but runs go more than fast enough with an OP. Mod 10 will close the gap a bit too.

OPs are still relevant because of DF tho'. Nice to have the bubble for blue or healadins so that DCs can focus on buffs/debuffs.

algaefree

So, the solution is to find a good guild! Basically relying on the pity and charity of others. I am in a great alliance and that is the only way I get into anything. You could sit in looking-for-group channel all day and you won't see a single group looking for paladins "healer or tank." Bubble doesn't work for blue when he wipes the field. We are not relevant right now anyone saying otherwise doesn't play the class. We can get the job done, but with more difficulty and at a much slower pace the Zeppelin vs the G6 Jet.

justawilly

got no problems here with 3112 ilvl but i don't use "standard" build.... way to tanky for my playstyle. also i rarely need a "decent" group anyway just pug queue most of it. except for CN of course but even then i just make my own party and get PM a lot.

abmaiden95

tested the new dungeon these days (FBI) and trust me that OP will be much better as tank than a gf

sulajpl

algaefree said:

I can't wait for the nerf to GF.

I wish I never made it to the Citadel.

urabask

algaefree said:

So, the solution is to find a good guild! Basically relying on the pity and charity of others. I am in a great alliance and that is the only way I get into anything. You could sit in looking-for-group channel all day and you won't see a single group looking for paladins "healer or tank." Bubble doesn't work for blue when he wipes the field. We are not relevant right now anyone saying otherwise doesn't play the class. We can get the job done, but with more difficulty and at a much slower pace the Zeppelin vs the G6 Jet.

It's more that you're relying on the fact that people in guilds aren't clueless like LFG is.

If you really think OPs are bad then you're playing with the wrong people.

soonergm

algaefree said:

So, the solution is to find a good guild! Basically relying on the pity and charity of others. I am in a great alliance and that is the only way I get into anything. You could sit in looking-for-group channel all day and you won't see a single group looking for paladins "healer or tank." Bubble doesn't work for blue when he wipes the field. We are not relevant right now anyone saying otherwise doesn't play the class. We can get the job done, but with more difficulty and at a much slower pace the Zeppelin vs the G6 Jet.

you are not entirely wrong, but the fix is on the way already so...

i like to run my pally with a GF, it's just fine, and our CN runs are just as fast as when i bring my trapper with the same group. so i must be proving enough buff and dps to equal what i'm bringing to the table with my trapper. we split aggro but who cares, as long as the rest of the team isn't getting aggro'd. if for whatever crazy reason one of us goes down, we have a backup tank.

when i have to PUG, i ususally just do kessels, elol, or etos. many times i end up with lower IL players, but it's almost like the old days where i am carrying the team through and topping Immovable Object, Healing, Paingiver, and Executioner charts, LOL. etos can take a while, but kessels and elol usually go quickly still.

also... just looking at the changes in mod 10, on paper i don't see why anyone would run with a GF over an OP for their tank. unless there is some ability the GF has that i am unaware of, WE will provide more buffs than them.

hrunting1

I'm with soonergm here. I have no problem being a asset to groups. I'm 2845 ilvl and tank like a boss. I personally don't have any problem picking up a group to run with. This is within my guild alliance or other wise. The nerf hammer has its sites on another class and we still do what we pallys are ment to do.


Tank well my friends.

algaefree

I never said we can't get the job done. We can get it done, but at a much slower pace and at a much higher level of difficulty. Because, the fights take longer "orcus", the group is subjected to more chances of being wiped out by a set of green death balls or you as a tank are more likely to take a hard round of hits from orcus and end up dying. The movement speed that GF gives and damage increase they provide make fights go faster and smoother.

i like to run my pally with a GF

Yea me too, but do guardian fighters like to run CN with us? Probly not unless they are low il or have little experience. At any rate you are relying upon the kindness and charity of others to get into the fun things like edemo, CN, tiamat, etc. I have been level 70 for about 2 weeks and never NEVER have I seen in LFG channel looking for paladin its either DC,GF, or DPS.
P.S
I love playing my paladin I just wish we could compete against our tank rivals GF.

nightranger7477

I as well have noticed the snub that us Paladins have been getting since the nerf, I guess it's how a lot of the GFs felt when mod 6 dropped and every one wanted a bubble for mindless dungeon runs, heck I could carry any group through cragmire or eToS regardless of IL, the changes coming though will make us much more viable in mod 10, be it tank or heals, now if they would only fix our gimped aggro and maybe a little dps buff we would be golden.

soonergm

no, i'm not relying on kindness or charity. when i run with a GF, it's someone that i know, and none of them mind it at all. as i stated before the runs are just as quick as when i take my HR, which is over 3k IL. in CN, i tip my hat to the SW because orcus dissolves in seconds (obviously thanks to the GF + DC exploit as well), however my HR is what drives us through the mobs so rapidly. when there is no SW, i am usually the top DPS in the group unless we happen to have a 4k random running with us. in other words, my HR is nothing to sneeze at.

when i swap out my HR for my paladin, and run with the same group of people, the runs are just as fast, meaning my 2600 IL pally is providing the party with enough benefits to make up for what we lose with my HR.. that's not charity, LOL.

ITF movement buff is nice. i am not sure how much speed boost it gives, but it is obvious. however, did you know that we have a feat that provides the party with 25% movement buff(+5% cooldown speed), and another feat that can provide 30% additional movement buff when we are attacked? that is up to an additional 55% movement. it must be noticeable because there have been many times where i run without a GF and people are wondering why they are running so fast.

you have been level 70 for 2 weeks, so i think you are just unfamiliar with what the paladin has to offer. also ITF is an exploit that everyone is taking advantage of... it's going away, and it's not going to be replaced by anything similar, at least not on purpose. no class in the future is going to buff the party's damage by 300% anymore. everyone is going to have to get used to runs taking longer. i highly recommend that you forget LFG and just queue, and also try to find a guild with players that can run with you.

finally, you should be able to tank orcus, unless you are still lower geared. i'm 2600, but i do have nice stuff going on with my companion and bonding stones. i hit my binding oath before going in, whatever i choose for my second encounter and hit templars wrath shortly before binding oath goes off so that i have maximum HP in anticipation for it. also use shield of faith to mitigate even more of that damage.

urabask

soonergm said:

no, i'm not relying on kindness or charity. when i run with a GF, it's someone that i know, and none of them mind it at all. as i stated before the runs are just as quick as when i take my HR, which is over 3k IL. in CN, i tip my hat to the SW because orcus dissolves in seconds (obviously thanks to the GF + DC exploit as well), however my HR is what drives us through the mobs so rapidly. when there is no SW, i am usually the top DPS in the group unless we happen to have a 4k random running with us. in other words, my HR is nothing to sneeze at.

when i swap out my HR for my paladin, and run with the same group of people, the runs are just as fast, meaning my 2600 IL pally is providing the party with enough benefits to make up for what we lose with my HR.. that's not charity, LOL.

ITF movement buff is nice. i am not sure how much speed boost it gives, but it is obvious. however, did you know that we have a feat that provides the party with 25% movement buff(+5% cooldown speed), and another feat that can provide 30% additional movement buff when we are attacked? that is up to an additional 55% movement. it must be noticeable because there have been many times where i run without a GF and people are wondering why they are running so fast.

you have been level 70 for 2 weeks, so i think you are just unfamiliar with what the paladin has to offer. also ITF is an exploit that everyone is taking advantage of... it's going away, and it's not going to be replaced by anything similar, at least not on purpose. no class in the future is going to buff the party's damage by 300% anymore. everyone is going to have to get used to runs taking longer. i highly recommend that you forget LFG and just queue, and also try to find a guild with players that can run with you.

finally, you should be able to tank orcus, unless you are still lower geared. i'm 2600, but i do have nice stuff going on with my companion and bonding stones. i hit my binding oath before going in, whatever i choose for my second encounter and hit templars wrath shortly before binding oath goes off so that i have maximum HP in anticipation for it. also use shield of faith to mitigate even more of that damage.

ITF and the interactions it had with DC skills were not an exploit. They were working as intended.

On the other hand the bugs SW had with Soul Puppet and Murderous Flames were an exploit . Because they were bugged and not working as intended. HR had a similar exploit with Hawk Shot.

soonergm

call it whatever, it may have been intended before but the devs had a change of heart. it's going bye bye and no need to for algaefree to be concerned about it at this point. heck, he/she missed the majority of the snub fest lol.

besides, an exploit does not have to be a bug. it does not seem that the devs ever wanted ITF to give that much of a buff. that is far more than any other class can do. and if they did, why would they fix it?

urabask

soonergm said:

call it whatever, it may have been intended before but the devs had a change of heart. it's going bye bye and no need to for algaefree to be concerned about it at this point. heck, he/she missed the majority of the snub fest lol.

besides, an exploit does not have to be a bug. it does not seem that the devs ever wanted ITF to give that much of a buff. that is far more than any other class can do. and if they did, why would they fix it?

There's a negative connotation that's implied by calling something an exploit that implies that the people using it are cheating. You shouldn't call something an exploit unless you actually know that it is. Again, exploits involve something that is not working as intended, ITF was nerfed because it was overperforming not because it wasn't working as intended.

algaefree

did you know that we have a feat that provides the party with 25% movement buff(+5% cooldown speed), and another feat that can provide 30% additional movement

Yes Radiant Chamption "Your very presence inspires your allies. When you have at least 2 other allies within 30' of you, all of you gain 5/10/15/20/25% more movement speed and 1/2/3/4/5% Cooldown Reduction." and it doesn't work well. Again think about the orcus fight and what grouping up close together will do "BOOOM". Think about any fight really if your a dps do you stand next to the tank or on the opposite side of the boss? You stand on the opposite side of the boss for combat advantage which when you move away from the boss to avoid ae's everyone loses those movement buffs and well the range dps "warlock's,CW,HR,etc will never get it as they will be to far away.

carl103

Yes Radiant Chamption "Your very presence inspires your allies. When you have at least 2 other allies within 30' of you, all of you gain 5/10/15/20/25% more movement speed and 1/2/3/4/5% Cooldown Reduction." and it doesn't work well. Again think about the orcus fight and what grouping up close together will do "BOOOM". Think about any fight really if your a dps do you stand next to the tank or on the opposite side of the boss? You stand on the opposite side of the boss for combat advantage which when you move away from the boss to avoid ae's everyone loses those movement buffs and well the range dps "warlock's,CW,HR,etc will never get it as they will be to far away.

Right because giving up the paladins aura's is such a huge positive. If they're far enough away to not benefit from that they aren't getting aura of courage, (which will reguarly account for a huge chunk of the total damage, it's guaranteed for a nerf for the same reason as ITF), and whatever other aura, (wisdom is considered the best AFAIK). And i' pretty sure a fair number of other group buffs have similar or smaller ranges.

It's why a number of HR archery feats and powers are still garbage after the buff, they require you to stand too far away from the group to benefit from group buffs.

soonergm

you only need 2 allies within 30' of you for Radiant Champion to work. companions are also allies, so if there are at least 2 melee companions in the party then Radiant Champion should be applied.

as HR, where i stand depends on the situation and what i am running. i was playing as stormwarden for a while, so i actually got in to the habit of standing behind the tank because the best place to fire off cold steel hurricane on a dragon is at the head and have it follow all the way through the tail.

but anyway, companions usually give CA on these single target bosses so i don't worry much about my personal placement for that, and also if i want, as HR, i can always enable aspect of the pack to grant permanent CA.

and carl is right, ITF has a limited range too, i am not sure what it is. perfect example is at the stairs in CN, if i take to long to load in and the party starts moving up the stairs, i miss the movement buff.

crazy thing is we have the option to extend our range... but it's so hard to make that choice, lol.

algaefree

I created this post because, groups don't even think about paladins as a tank for their group anymore. Its GF and only GF will do. Whats better than one GF? Two guardian fighters so to me it feels like I'm always begging to get into the events I want to even after making 3k+ iL. If you'ld like I can post pictures of the LFG channel or worse my alliance channel. I play my alt now that even at 2400iL gets into more things than my 3150 paly. I challenge anyone to post legit pictures of groups asking for paladins healer tank. The worst thing is when someone asks in lfg for a tank I msg them 5 minutes later after they spam looking for a tank a few more times they respond to me with "group filled." Essentially oops not a paly type of situation.

Those of you who say pets and or these auras work well as they are obviously don't play a paladin. When ITF hits you know you have it the results are amazing. When a paladin aura hits it is often extremely brief and seldom helpful.

justawilly

Well after mod10 i can safely conclude that when aura gifts is applied its rarely for a brief moment. the problem is making everyone know that it's there. I use bonding companion with power/defence only. it really works well... i can reach like 60k max power thats 15k power right there. Problem is I've seen plenty ranged classes not having the balls go get close to paladin, or they don't know WHEN to dodge.
I tell ONLY once if they want aura gift POWER buff to stay close. After that it's thier choice where they want to stand in a fight.

algaefree

I'd like aura gifts to be more like a short term buff that ticks 6 secs before it fades instead of relying on groups to be withing X range and to fade the second condition Y is not met. Example would be

{if (playerpaladin01) is within (30' groupplayer02) && (30' groupplayer03) then (groupplayerAll receive radiant champion buff) }

which lasts 6 ticks or seconds. One of the main reasons our aura gifts are so horrible is they rely on conditions that can and often are affected by lag server ping as well as game mechanics that are anti range class friendly. We are tanks built to take ae's and close range damage that boss mobs dish out. Asking squishy casters to come in close risking their lives for our under powered aura gifts is not smart if your on Orcus one swipe could wipe the entire group if they are up close and a pet turns him at the wrong time.

justawilly

Then why am i not having any issues with it? and yes I am face tanking Orcus. If other players Defender companion makes Orcus turn that's not your fault. They should've known that would happen. Even a GF would loose aggro now and then if a Defender companion is summoned

algaefree

"A fierce battle cry that temporarily increases your adventuring party's Run Speed and Action Point generation. In addition, all party members receive a small portion of your Max Hit Points as Temporary Hit Points and 25% of your Damage Resistance as increased Damage.
Recovers 15% of your Stamina over 8 seconds."

Thats ITF or into the fray GF buff it hits the entire party at a really nice range and they all get a temporary buff. Why would I be happy with a buff that doesn't give us the same or comparable mechanic. Yes it is getting nerfed it will not be as effective. But, it does affect the entire group and even if the GF dies they have the buff for several ticks afterwards. I'm not asking our aura's to be increased just made with a more reliable and hence viable mechanic that has been tried and tested to work like ITF.
There are similar things that can be done with our aggro abilities that would make them work. I just want paladins to be desirable for groups competitive that's all nothing more or less.

soonergm

algaefree said:

I created this post because, groups don't even think about paladins as a tank for their group anymore. Its GF and only GF will do. Whats better than one GF? Two guardian fighters so to me it feels like I'm always begging to get into the events I want to even after making 3k+ iL. If you'ld like I can post pictures of the LFG channel or worse my alliance channel. I play my alt now that even at 2400iL gets into more things than my 3150 paly. I challenge anyone to post legit pictures of groups asking for paladins healer tank. The worst thing is when someone asks in lfg for a tank I msg them 5 minutes later after they spam looking for a tank a few more times they respond to me with "group filled." Essentially oops not a paly type of situation.

Those of you who say pets and or these auras work well as they are obviously don't play a paladin. When ITF hits you know you have it the results are amazing. When a paladin aura hits it is often extremely brief and seldom helpful.

i don't think anyone argued with you about the LFG thing, but people have offered solutions for you that work really well so you don't have to rely on other people LFG.

and i am the one that talked about your companion procing that aura, and i have been playing paladin since it was introduced to the game, which is probably longer than you have been playing this game. i also have 1 of each class, and although i don't run with them all regularly because the cost would be too much for me, i have played with them all. in other words, i have a basic first hand understanding of the mechanics of all classes.

you keep comparing 1 power to 1 power, paladin vs GF instead of comparing the class vs the class. my point has been and still is that after the nerf to ITF, pally will be better overall than GF. i could truly be wrong about this, but not one person in this thread has presented any information that states otherwise. if you want to continue going on about how unfortunate it is in the present, that is great, but nothing is going to be done about it over night, so i am not sure what the value of continuing on is. this is why people offered suggestions on how to get in to a group without relying on LFG requests.

yes there are things about the paladin in general that could be tweaked. however things definitely work better than you claim they do, although they are not perfect. and additionally, as others have also stated, other classes buffs have the same issue with proximity. just 1 example, as a HR, there are many times when i miss ITF with Orcus, or Demogorgon.

but don't get me wrong, i LOVE that there is discussion and debate going on in this section which has been so dead for so long. we can go back and forth on this for weeks and i will be happy with that. even though it irritates me that you keep saying other people "obviously don't play a paladin".

algaefree said:

"A fierce battle cry that temporarily increases your adventuring party's Run Speed and Action Point generation. In addition, all party members receive a small portion of your Max Hit Points as Temporary Hit Points and 25% of your Damage Resistance as increased Damage.
Recovers 15% of your Stamina over 8 seconds."

Thats ITF or into the fray GF buff it hits the entire party at a really nice range and they all get a temporary buff. Why would I be happy with a buff that doesn't give us the same or comparable mechanic. Yes it is getting nerfed it will not be as effective. But, it does affect the entire group and even if the GF dies they have the buff for several ticks afterwards. I'm not asking our aura's to be increased just made with a more reliable and hence viable mechanic that has been tried and tested to work like ITF.
There are similar things that can be done with our aggro abilities that would make them work. I just want paladins to be desirable for groups competitive that's all nothing more or less.

yah, ITF... so again looking at it from the perspective of my ranger(i am LFG, need GF). the temporary HP i never even notice, and the movement is nice and also fun, but none of that is make or break for me as far as getting them in a group. the ONLY reason i would take GF over pally is for the damage buff, which is the part that's getting nerfed in mod 10. after the nerf they won't be able to buff as much as a pally of either kind. Bane alone will be a match for ITF.

the only other selling point for me for a GF is KV, which is super nice, to me it's nicer than any type of damage mitigation that a pally provides except the bubble. but not everyone wants to spend what it takes to get near permabubble status again.

thefabricant

soonergm said:

algaefree said:

I created this post because, groups don't even think about paladins as a tank for their group anymore. Its GF and only GF will do. Whats better than one GF? Two guardian fighters so to me it feels like I'm always begging to get into the events I want to even after making 3k+ iL. If you'ld like I can post pictures of the LFG channel or worse my alliance channel. I play my alt now that even at 2400iL gets into more things than my 3150 paly. I challenge anyone to post legit pictures of groups asking for paladins healer tank. The worst thing is when someone asks in lfg for a tank I msg them 5 minutes later after they spam looking for a tank a few more times they respond to me with "group filled." Essentially oops not a paly type of situation.

Those of you who say pets and or these auras work well as they are obviously don't play a paladin. When ITF hits you know you have it the results are amazing. When a paladin aura hits it is often extremely brief and seldom helpful.

i don't think anyone argued with you about the LFG thing, but people have offered solutions for you that work really well so you don't have to rely on other people LFG.

and i am the one that talked about your companion procing that aura, and i have been playing paladin since it was introduced to the game, which is probably longer than you have been playing this game. i also have 1 of each class, and although i don't run with them all regularly because the cost would be too much for me, i have played with them all. in other words, i have a basic first hand understanding of the mechanics of all classes.

you keep comparing 1 power to 1 power, paladin vs GF instead of comparing the class vs the class. my point has been and still is that after the nerf to ITF, pally will be better overall than GF. i could truly be wrong about this, but not one person in this thread has presented any information that states otherwise. if you want to continue going on about how unfortunate it is in the present, that is great, but nothing is going to be done about it over night, so i am not sure what the value of continuing on is. this is why people offered suggestions on how to get in to a group without relying on LFG requests.

yes there are things about the paladin in general that could be tweaked. however things definitely work better than you claim they do, although they are not perfect. and additionally, as others have also stated, other classes buffs have the same issue with proximity. just 1 example, as a HR, there are many times when i miss ITF with Orcus, or Demogorgon.

but don't get me wrong, i LOVE that there is discussion and debate going on in this section which has been so dead for so long. we can go back and forth on this for weeks and i will be happy with that. even though it irritates me that you keep saying other people "obviously don't play a paladin".

algaefree said:

"A fierce battle cry that temporarily increases your adventuring party's Run Speed and Action Point generation. In addition, all party members receive a small portion of your Max Hit Points as Temporary Hit Points and 25% of your Damage Resistance as increased Damage.
Recovers 15% of your Stamina over 8 seconds."

Thats ITF or into the fray GF buff it hits the entire party at a really nice range and they all get a temporary buff. Why would I be happy with a buff that doesn't give us the same or comparable mechanic. Yes it is getting nerfed it will not be as effective. But, it does affect the entire group and even if the GF dies they have the buff for several ticks afterwards. I'm not asking our aura's to be increased just made with a more reliable and hence viable mechanic that has been tried and tested to work like ITF.
There are similar things that can be done with our aggro abilities that would make them work. I just want paladins to be desirable for groups competitive that's all nothing more or less.

yah, ITF... so again looking at it from the perspective of my ranger(i am LFG, need GF). the temporary HP i never even notice, and the movement is nice and also fun, but none of that is make or break for me as far as getting them in a group. the ONLY reason i would take GF over pally is for the damage buff, which is the part that's getting nerfed in mod 10. after the nerf they won't be able to buff as much as a pally of either kind. Bane alone will be a match for ITF.

the only other selling point for me for a GF is KV, which is super nice, to me it's nicer than any type of damage mitigation that a pally provides except the bubble. but not everyone wants to spend what it takes to get near permabubble status again.

Bane is not a match for itf. Bane is additive with debuffs, ITF is multiplicative. Bane is ~7% dps boost in reality with all 3 stacks up.

soonergm

thanks for that information. something else i forgot to mention is that bane would only effect 1 target.

so does that mean that each stack of bane is only equal to 2.33%?

algaefree

yes there are things about the paladin in general that could be tweaked. however things definitely work better than you claim they do, although they are not perfect. and additionally, as others have also stated, other classes buffs have the same issue with proximity.

I'd like to show a video here of game play where I'm running by myself than get near some group members and my speed or rate of movement does not change until several seconds later "I counted to 6," before it kicked in and than stopped working shortly after. I'm telling you the aura system proximity checks do not work as they are intended to. If they did I wouldn't say anything and just be content or I'd be complaining "yes I know that I'm complaining about something that won't get fixed for hmm maybe never," about something else.

I'm a glass half empty type of person where if I see a glass and its half full I say #wtf is that glass not full we should fill that glass.

yes there are things about the paladin in general that could be tweaked. however things definitely work better than you claim they do

Your definitely a glass half full type of guy and you have 5 other characters you can fall back onto. We will never be an option 1 as a tank with the mechanics the way they are for aura's as buffs.

marnival

Mmm I have a Pal 3.4 I never so far had a problem getting groups for CN or whatever, I also have a 3.1 GF and to me its much easer taking partys through CN with Pal.

Pugging alot doing CN I find rezzing peope with Pal when they die on Orcus (and they do a lot) is far easer then with GF.

Sure Gf might make it a bit faster but unless you talk about close to decked out groups 3.5+ premade Pal is more reliable when it comes to taking pugs through CN at least that is my experiance.

Doing CN in 5 min or 7 min who cares, I even say that the pets+bonding used by a GF or Pal is a bigger issue then the buffs these days.

PS I think the new zone will make it to the Pals advantage because of 2 reasons, 1 you can heal others 2 you can take ALOT more damage due to temp hp....

In fact I admire the Gf that does a very good job as its alot more work playing a GF well then a Pal imho...

balufunke

My main atm is OP Protection with only a gs of 2,8. I play since may 2013. I almost only PUG because I like to play with average and casual palyers and it shows me what the majority of players are struggling with. I have never been kicked and never have a problem finding a party for CN. Sometimes I have little problems with holding aggro but I fould out, for my own playstile, that Aura of Radiance works quite well.

justawilly

I mostly use radiance/courage except maybe for orcus.... depending on the party. My playstyle is way too aggressive i know but if i play tanky it just doesn't feel right. i got an AXE and i wanna use it!
i pug queue a lot. which is fun/challenging.