Again I cannot say this enough: Players will quit over the charges in Steel Breeze. @ralexinor no longer plays the game so even if his observations are valid he is no longer a stakeholder. Someone said there are not hundreds of HRs, well you are not considering all the platforms. There are hundreds of hunters all over the world. Most of who want Steel Breeze nerfed don't even run the power. Personally I will take lower damage to keep my Steel Breeze the way it is. A lot of us would. There are other ways to fix this issue than nerfing one of the go to powers for the trapper.
Again this firm will kill itself by only listening to the elite that post in here. You guys are over represented. Most Xbox players do not use the forums and still think HRs will be fixed. If this Steel Breeze with charges hits you will see most HRs go the way of the Pally in PVE.
Call me stupid and use all the logical fallacies you want concerning my argument. This firm offers this game because it is profitable. If the Devs continue to nerf all the characters people will leave and not return. The grind is too steep for new casual players already. More nerfs will equal less paying customers. Once the game is gone all this talk about what a few elitists want will be irreverent.
Over-dramatic much? I bet you've been playing NW for six months at most. This game (and more importantly this class) would be in a much better state if the devs listened to @ralexinor, who along with @thedemien has done more for the HR community than anyone else. I respect the advice she gives because she is one of the few HRs who know what is actually going on with the class, despite not even playing anymore. One little nerf (even if I abhor the charge mechanic) will not cause a HR exodus - not like we saw with the advent of Mod 6.
Logical fallacies in an attempt invalidate my argument.
Come find me on Xbox I've been around for a long time and I very much contribute to the community. I just don't wear it on my sleeve. Say what you will about me but profit provides you with a free game, this forum to complain on, bash, and hone your use of logical fallacies.
NO CUSTOMERS=NO REVENUE=NO NEVERWINTER
Learn to see the long term effects of the unintended consequences.
Right so you're crying about one change that will supposedly destroy the whole experience for the Trapper HR and cause a mass exodus? Consider this: maybe the Trapper tree was never designed to forego at-wills for the ability to spam encounters. That is the core of the problem with Trappers atm compared with Archery and Combat - their ability to do just that due to Swiftness of the Fox.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
It sounds more to me like spoiled children who want to have their cake and eat it too at the expense of the other two trees.
still is not like trappers are over performing (if something they are playable) i would rather keep it than start a crusade to ruin the last tree remotely viable HOWEVER if a nerf to CDs comes with a much greater buff to overall damage..hei im in
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
still is not like trappers are over performing (if something they are playable) i would rather keep it than start a crusade to ruin the last tree remotely viable
Aye, of the three trees Trapper performs the smoothest, if maybe a little too much. It's not that it is over-performing as much as Archery and Combat are woefully under-performing.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Whoa I never knew about this thread until now... I have only read up to page 3 but I`ll just add a quick comment about a couple of broken things @amenar as I play on the X1 and never played the PC. I only contribute a little on the PC forums.
1st up... Melee Encounter Hindering Strike is broken. It does not apply any damage to Thorned Roots at all, currently Thorned Roots is applied from Hindering Strike but actually uses the Main Hand for the damage. You can easily test thing just by un-equipping the Bow... Then use Hindering Strike and watch the root tick damage, it is all 0. The Encounter Power should take into account the Off-Hand Weapon damage as well, considering it is a Melee Encounter.
If you use the Encounter Power Fox's Shift but dodge out of it fairly quickly. The skill no longer works but you can spam the Encounter button and the animation glitches out, but you cause no damage.
Aspect of the Pack is broken at Rank 4. It resets itself back to Rank 1 and it costs a fortune to Respec to take points out of the power. It only works up to Rank 3.
Natures Enhancement Feat does not work at all, putting points into it does not do anything on the X1. Completely broken.
Anything that states "uses weapon damage" in its calculations for damage for us is broken. For instance Lostmauth Set causes 25% Weapon damage on a Crit... It does not it just causes inbetween Main Hand and Off Hand damage... It should add the 2 Weapons together. Most things I have tested is like this for the HR which is probably why a lot of people think we are under-powered. I have a strong feeling both weapons are not used in a lot of damage calculations.
Feytouched is currently broken in PvE and only procs once. It will only proc again if you die or change zones etc. Very expensive broken Trans Enchant sitting in my bank. (if this is fixed I apologise as I have not tested it for some time)
I probably have a few more but wanted to get a post in before reading the rest of the thread.
Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only Alts : Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
Member of Q-Snipe
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
still is not like trappers are over performing (if something they are playable) i would rather keep it than start a crusade to ruin the last tree remotely viable
If they finally start buffing the damage of the HR then the trapper will need to have a second look so it doesn't reap all of the benefits more than the other trees can. They still have time to sort out this mess before the module hits live.
Yeah, they're playable, but can be abused too due to the number of bugs.
Oh and I just want it known... stick cool downs on my HR and I will most certainly quit the game. The REASON I main a HR and have put over a year of my life into it is because it is so fun to play.
Any other class with cool downs bores the HAMSTER out of me and I cannot play them for long.
Stick cool downs on me and force me to slow down my combos and button mashing and that would be it for me I am afraid.
Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only Alts : Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
What I don't understand is the devs could fix the other two trees without destroying the trapper. Reworking the feats of combat and archery is a better solution than destroying the trapper play style. The tier 4, 5 and capstone feats are really what makes each tree unique and allow them to function.
It really sounds like a lot of people miss their beloved archer or combat HR's. I get it, once you love the playstyle of a character you're hooked but destroying another tree isn't the solution. The devs need to do their jobs and fix the other trees, not just change the current meta. If the archer get fixed at the expense of the trapper, everyone flocks to the archer. This solves nothing.
As for this Xbox vs pc none sense, come on guys look at the bigger picture here. Don't turn this thread into childish attacks, get back to the topic at hand.
Buff damage of HR powers, tone down damage buffs of trapper without touching CDs, does that appease you people?
You can re-read the last pages of posts, maybe with a closer attention as its widely explained in details, I won't add more as in the end our target are the devel as long they understand it, then the goal is fullfilled.
Been on vacation, so I'm a bit late to this party, but I spent some time on test today. Overall, I do see a small boost in dps from my HR Trapper. My concerns, however, are as follows:
1 - most HRs use specific powers, because they get the most dps out of them and that's what this game ultimately boils down to. Boosting an unused power by as much as 67% is great and all, but if it's still less than what another power would do, it's going to remain unused. eg. Cordon vs. Rain of Arrows - Cordon does significantly better damage, *AND* has the added benefit of a short-lasting AoE crowd control. You'll need to do better than increasing Rain's AoE range a wee bit for me to consider dropping Cordon for it.
2 - yay on Shift's slight increase in distance covered. Very much requested, and much appreciated.
3 - while the boosts to various powers' damage was appreciated, there still exists several powers (including those that were adjusted) that are still underperforming. A boost of, say, 67% to a power's damage output sounds impressive - until you realize that the base damage was so low already that a 2/3rds boost upwards is still negligable compared to some other powers. I understand the issue of careful balancing of powers, since we are considered to have 6 encounter powers compared to other classes 3, but several are still weak and will remain unused unless they get further improvements. I feel as though the base damage on numerous powers, combined with further ranks in those powers improving things other than their damage (i.e. improving range, for instance, is common on several powers' rank improvements) make them undesirable compared to those that improve damage with rank increases.
4 - cooldown charges. They limit our dps on non-stop killfests already; adding more will simply make the issue worse. Our dps drops notably in fights where there are numerous adds, over a long period of time, and things such as Cordon, Hindering Shot, etc., run out of charges and effectively become unusable encounter powers.
Ultimately, there's a reason my HR's run Trapper, and consider slotting what I slot, and these changes do not look to change this. eg. Longstrider's dps boost + Aspect of the Serpent dps boost on swaps (with Serpent's Bite = +34% at rank2 for one hit) + Biting Snares' +30% damage every 10 seconds or so, paired with a heavy hitter such as Cordon or Plant Growth, is what gives us our burst dps, and nothing has changed there to make me consider changing out that 1-2-3 punch combination. DoT damage is also unchanged with Thorned Roots + Plant Growth making up most of my AoE DoT dps. Minor boosts to some of these powers as well as some at-wills give a modest dps boost, as I noted in the intro, but nothing spectacular.
I haven't tested Combat or Archery yet, but I'm not convinced that I need to. Nothing from the notes suggests that those paths will be able to compete with Trapper - and they need to outperform Trapper for me to consider giving up the great dps *and* crowd control that the path offers.
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patcherrkmMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 127Arc User
edited July 2016
I'm a 3400 item level HR. Not BiS, but I have a pretty good grip on the HR and what would be needed to make it viable in PVP. Currently I am not viable. I have tried multiple different rees and specs. None make me effective against anything other than casual players. In real end game PvP, the best spec trapper HR is still last. Maybe the Warlock is worse. None of these changes have done anything to buff the class releative to its competition. We have no real burst damage. I think most HR would be willing to lose some roots if the archery tree performed some real dps. As it stands, why go archery? Does our damage go through the roof as a trade off? No? It goes still below a trapper who has roots and awesome cooldown reduction. The developers are listening to the wrong people. They need people who plays the HR in both PvE and PvP. Sad
Feat: Thorned Roots: When used in conjunction with the Class Feature Crushing Roots, Thorned Roots would apply the Daze twice. In most cases, this would manifest as just causing the Daze to last about 0.1s longer. This has been fixed.
This is also one thing which made me mumble and would be nice to have a bigger clarification, as Crushing Root either apply a 0.125s or a 0.25s (Weak or Strong grasping root), saying that the daze was applyed twice (so a bug that got fixed) but the lasting of 0.1sec of the daze means to me that this it was not reflecting the correct duration as the daze itself is never 0.1sec (but should be more, especially when Strong grasping root occurs), would be nice to know more about it, since this is nothing we can easily verify our self. The way the patch note describe saying that a 0.1s is what we loose (due bug), due being applied twice make me think that Crushing Roots always was dazing for 0.1s whatever weak or strong grasping root was applied, thereafter means that Crushing Roots power is under performing, and in this circumstance, would be nice to have it fixed accordingly to what the tool tip state about how long it has to last.
Alright, let's get back on topic because this is just degenerating into moronic arguments and hysteria.
Firstly, I'm going to put this out there:
BUG: Swiftness of the Fox procs based on targets hit instead of encounter execution.
There's been no indication of whether this is a bug or not, so I may go as far as saying that I don't think the devs are aware of this particular issue. From the tooltip, Swiftness procing off targets hit does seem like a bug as I'm sure the tooltip indicates that it procs when an encounter power is used, not when it hits.
Let's sort out this first, and then see where Trapper stands in terms of balance. While 45% total cooldown reduction is fairly sizeable, I don't think it's completely unreasonably. Ideally 30% would probably be a bit more balanced, but for the purpose of this, 45% is fine. Especially if this is a bug, I'm pretty sure the Trapper playstyle is still going to be there especially if you stack some recovery, which is now a useful stat again.
I'm still going to stand by Thorned Roots needing a nerf. Even at 30-35% of an HR's total damage in an instance, that's still a massive 50% damage increase, and capable of going upwards of 100%. Yes, it's a T5 feat, but there's no other T5 feat that gives that much damage.
FEEDBACK: Thorned Roots' damage values should be halved to bring it more in line with other damage feats.
Finally, with that sorted, HR needs a base damage buff. Archery and Combat need QoL changes as well as some buffs to their feats. Overall, HR cooldowns should be reduced by a further 10%. One thing that I don't think has been made clear at any point: having double the amount of encounters that other classes do is not the same thing as having double the damage. You're limited by animation execution time, and where one class can deal x amount of damage in one skill, at minimum HRs need to use at least 2 skills to match that damage, which means we lose DPS purely because of the time it takes to use multiple encounters. Additionally, as it stands right now, even using 2 HR encounters does not do the same amount of damage as another class's single encounter, regardless of which path you use. And quite frankly, as many people have mentioned, HR has maybe a few good encounters, and the rest are absolute trash and filler skills for Trapper cooldowns.
I'm not even going to bother making a list of the numerous changes that need to be made for each skill in order to make them remotely viable (and no, a 10% damage buff doesn't even do anything for skills that are absolute trash). Will just put this out there, first:
FEEDBACK: increase HR damage by 30-50% for all skills, possibly with the exception of already-strong skills like Cordon of Arrows. This is after fixing/doing the aforementioned bugs/feedback lines in this post.
Tbh even starting as a 30% damage buff (not a base damage buff as they've been doing, but an actual damage increase of that amount), we'll start to see some nice improvements in the different path damage.
Also a final note, I'd like to leave this 1.5-year old thread here for reference:
This thread might be old but I'm pretty sure that 99% of the bugs I mentioned are still there, as well as additional bugs that have been mentioned elsewhere.
Hawk shot should have a push back feature, and have it's damage equal or greater to Cordon of arrows
Aimed shot should decrease cooldown far more than 0.5s on max, 1.5s would be Ok imo
Anf if you really want us to use Aimed shot more properly give us a feat that reduce it's casting time by half
Damage on Marauder's escape should be AoE and pumped up, and the cooldown could use a feat to reduce it too
I can only agree on the reducing the number of creeps affected by our encounters by 5, if any other enconter in the game don't have more than 5 targets cap either
Give hasty retreat something to restore our stamina by a set amount by each hit we take and increase our speed when hit by something like 50% on max
Making throw cauting buff affect the party would rise the vallue of this power a lot
Electric shot max damage is lower than split shot minimum damage, it's better to spam split than to use it, so I suggest to look it up again
Broaded Head arrows feat is really weak right now, could use some look into it too, I'd sugged add critical severy, or something else
Archery's capstone has been needing some love for a long time, I'm surprised that you have done anything to it for now, this entire path three is revolved around critical strikes, I suggest we have some interaction with critical strikes - marked prey, like adding a big nasty critical strike severity to it/irresistible damage/heavy slow/% damage with a big cap to bosses so that it is actually useful, one or two of those should IMO be considerable, or else 40% damage to one target doesn't feel like a capstone feat to me, it's really really weak in the state it is
Stillness of the forest should add something like heavely decreasing our threat when we are near something, or else it's only a punishing feat when we cannot maintein our distance, (decreasing the cooldown on marauder's escape by half, could be here)
Alright, let's get back on topic because this is just degenerating into moronic arguments and hysteria.
Firstly, I'm going to put this out there: BUG: Swiftness of the Fox procs based on targets hit instead of encounter execution.
There's been no indication of whether this is a bug or not, so I may go as far as saying that I don't think the devs are aware of this particular issue. From the tooltip, Swiftness procing off targets hit does seem like a bug as I'm sure the tooltip indicates that it procs when an encounter power is used, not when it hits.
Let's sort out this first, and then see where Trapper stands in terms of balance. While 45% total cooldown reduction is fairly sizeable, I don't think it's completely unreasonable. Ideally 30% would probably be a bit more balanced, but for the purpose of this, 45% is fine. Especially if this is a bug, I'm pretty sure the Trapper playstyle is still going to be there especially if you stack some recovery, which is now a useful stat again.
I'm still going to stand by Thorned Roots needing a nerf. Even at 30-35% of an HR's total damage in an instance, that's still a massive 50% damage increase, and capable of going upwards of 100%. Yes, it's a T5 feat, but there's no other T5 feat that gives that much damage. FEEDBACK: Thorned Roots' damage values should be halved to bring it more in line with other damage feats.
Finally, with that sorted, HR needs a base damage buff. Archery and Combat need QoL changes as well as some buffs to their feats. Overall, HR cooldowns should be reduced by a further 10%. One thing that I don't think has been made clear at any point: having double the amount of encounters that other classes do is not the same thing as having double the damage. You're limited by animation execution time, and where one class can deal x amount of damage in one skill, at minimum HRs need to use at least 2 skills to match that damage, which means we lose DPS purely because of the time it takes to use multiple encounters. Additionally, as it stands right now, even using 2 HR encounters does not do the same amount of damage as another class's single encounter, regardless of which path you use. And quite frankly, as many people have mentioned, HR has maybe a few good encounters, and the rest are absolute trash and filler skills for Trapper cooldowns.
I'm not even going to bother making a list of the numerous changes that need to be made for each skill in order to make them remotely viable (and no, a 10% damage buff doesn't even do anything for skills that are absolute trash). Will just put this out there, first: FEEDBACK: increase HR damage by 30-50% for all skills, possibly with the exception of already-strong skills like Cordon of Arrows. This is after fixing/doing the aforementioned bugs/feedback lines in this post.
Tbh even starting as a 30% damage buff (not a base damage buff as they've been doing, but an actual damage increase of that amount), we'll start to see some nice improvements in all the paths' damage.
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gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
Yesterday I went to the Well of Dragons for some further testing with my trapper. I mainly soloed the small encounters (Thwarth Sacrifices and Patrols). It didn't feel much different than live. I used Constrictive/Cordon/Hindering mainly because you need control as the mobs hit hard.
Feedback (Steel Breeze): the charges to Steel Breeze are not a big issue with my 5k of recovery as long as the are at least two enemies. This is probably due to multiprocs of Swiftness. As soon as you are left with one target the situation is quite different and you need to start using at-wills. This mainly happened with the Drake Rider before he gets dismounted.
Feedback (Gushing Wound): thumbs up for the change to Gushing Wound. It is a real melter now especially for nasty mobs like the White Dragonwings. I specifically looked at the difference between Plant Growth only and Gushing+Growth and it is really clear, while before Gushing in solo was not really noticeable. Targeting is still a bit clunky and you often feel you have missed even if you actually hit, but the change to being a targeting skill really helps (on live I sometimes miss even on large targets like dragons probably because I activate just outside the actual range). Anyway it was almost impossible to properly use it against the Drake Rider without getting hit, so I still feel that in PVP it will be difficult to use it on fast moving targets that can retaliate.
Feedback (Crushing Roots): the difference is really not visible. Mobs blinked and then were active again pretty much as it is in live so the fix didn't make it less effective. An increase of the dazing time in PVE would be welcome (I understand this would be an issue on PVP so I propose it only for PVE). This will mainly help low geared HRs in solo (Icewind, Well and the new campaign) and in dungeons. High geared HRs will shift to damage based passives to clear stuff faster anyway.
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
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feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
On the change to Thorned Roots:
Unless there's a change of direction to how the devs are approaching this (and there absolutely should be), a temporary fix to our inability to deal damage to most classes in pvp would be a change to thorned roots. HR and SW both suffer from the fact that our damage is mostly damage-over-time, and the tankier classes simply out-heal that damage - as others have remarked.
Thorned Roots should therefore change its effect on control-immune targets, and instead of simply dealing an additional 400% weapon damage, after which DOT ineffectually ticks away, it should convert all the forthcoming DOT to burst damage. Sounds huge? It should. We need huge help in pvp. Mathematically it would make no difference in pve where we usually have enough armor penetration to entirely bypass a target's damage resistance anyway.
Similar fixes could no doubt apply to the archery and combat trees. For combat it could be an undo to the mod 4 nerf of piercing blade or some other adjustment to that feat. For archery it doesn't fit neatly anywhere in the existing t4/t5 feats, and it shouldn't be a buff to longshot since t3 feats invite overpowered hybrid builds. Archery obviously needs a thorough rewrite anyway. I'd suggest a feat named, say, bodkin arrows (the type used to pierce plate armor) which would add a piercing damage similar to piercing blade. Maybe replace Rising Focus, which is underpowered for a t5 feat anyway.
Overall, though, I think the comments on this and the announcement thread show the disappointment felt by the HR community. We've been waiting since the launch of mod 6 for some help for the class and this too-little, too-late approach that takes almost none of the community's longstanding input into account is not what we need.
I appreciate everyone's dedication to class balance, but please stay on topic, avoid insulting, and keep feedback respectful.
Matz, keep being awesome.
Call me Andy (or Strum, or Spider-Man)! Follow Neverwinter on Twitter: NeverwinterGame Like Neverwinter on Facebook: Neverwinter Follow me on Twitter: StrumSlinger
@amenar You know what... our class probably does not need any buffs any where. I think if they fixed all the bugs in our class and actually apply BOTH our Weapon Damage to powers we would do more damage, thus not needing a buff in the 1st place lol.
I find so much is under-powered or no power at all due to having 2 weapon damage types. This seems to really mess with a lot of damage calculations. As I mentioned earlier Off-Hand Weapon damage is not even taken in to account for a lot of our damage, especially Thorned Roots.
Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only Alts : Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
> @nigglenoggle said: > Buffing hunters? Sure maybe stuff hardly anybody uses. and killing stuff people do use. I am a pve hr, and honestly a very good one at that. You are KILLING us. There are hardly any good pve hr compared to other classes. Most I've hr I see are trash, no offense to anyone. You're NERFING our hardest hitting power, killing our stamina regen which keeps us alive because we get hit once and most of us go splat. I pull aggro like no freaking other. How the heck am I supposed to survive? I don't want a damage buff to steel breeze. Heck, go ahead and make it weaker, just don't give it charges with a darn cool down. Its ridiculous. plant growth max 5? Jesus many of us barely do dps as is, take that away and the best of us wont even be able to do decent dps. I can understand pvp peole disliking the perma roto, but for petes sake, its the only thing giving pve hunters a chance. take this as whining or whatever, but I will quit if the changes to plant growth and steel breeze, as was originally planned, actually happen. You will KILL the only truly relevant pve build we have. reading rhse changes has upset me on a level that truly disturbs me. I almost quit this game a whole ago and the pace of the hunter kept me playing and spending thousands on my hunter. idk how your internal hrs deemsd this a positive change but they are WRONG. please actually read what the MAJORITY of people are saying and listen to them! I am not saying all the changes are bad, heck some of then are pretty nice, however you CANNOT do this to steel breeze and plant growth without destroying us pve hunters. Its absurd. Read the feed back, nobody thinks this charge thing is a good idea, nor the cap to plant growth. BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD. I will regret ever spending a dime on this game and will not even think twice of quitting. please rethink your "buff" because the only buff I see coming from this is the buff to me hitting the uninstall button easier. Truly truly truly disappointed edit: You asked foe feedback, I'm giving you my honest opinion without holding back. the best buff you could give us at this point is by NOT messing with those two powers at all. They are fine as they are now. I never had any intention of even looking at forums but after hearing this, I had to say something.
Totally agreed. This changes will destroy pve trapper. No dmg.. no surv..
Steel Breeze: Damage increased ~75%. Its defensive skill... 75% to 0dmg is still will be 0dmg.. and charges will make this skill useless.
Plant Growth: Now properly has a target cap of 5. Only strong side of pve trapper its aoe dmg.. will be dead now.
Rain of Swords: will be uselees untill u make it insta-cast.. or adding dodge to animation cast time like fox shift.
For HR get hitted in melee=death so i think all melee encounter of HR must be very fast to cast or even insta-cast it will fets HR play-style.
Alright, let's get back on topic because this is just degenerating into moronic arguments and hysteria.
Firstly, I'm going to put this out there: BUG: Swiftness of the Fox procs based on targets hit instead of encounter execution.
There's been no indication of whether this is a bug or not, so I may go as far as saying that I don't think the devs are aware of this particular issue. From the tooltip, Swiftness procing off targets hit does seem like a bug as I'm sure the tooltip indicates that it procs when an encounter power is used, not when it hits.
Let's sort out this first, and then see where Trapper stands in terms of balance. While 45% total cooldown reduction is fairly sizeable, I don't think it's completely unreasonable. Ideally 30% would probably be a bit more balanced, but for the purpose of this, 45% is fine. Especially if this is a bug, I'm pretty sure the Trapper playstyle is still going to be there especially if you stack some recovery, which is now a useful stat again.
I'm still going to stand by Thorned Roots needing a nerf. Even at 30-35% of an HR's total damage in an instance, that's still a massive 50% damage increase, and capable of going upwards of 100%. Yes, it's a T5 feat, but there's no other T5 feat that gives that much damage. FEEDBACK: Thorned Roots' damage values should be halved to bring it more in line with other damage feats.
Finally, with that sorted, HR needs a base damage buff. Archery and Combat need QoL changes as well as some buffs to their feats. Overall, HR cooldowns should be reduced by a further 10%. One thing that I don't think has been made clear at any point: having double the amount of encounters that other classes do is not the same thing as having double the damage. You're limited by animation execution time, and where one class can deal x amount of damage in one skill, at minimum HRs need to use at least 2 skills to match that damage, which means we lose DPS purely because of the time it takes to use multiple encounters. Additionally, as it stands right now, even using 2 HR encounters does not do the same amount of damage as another class's single encounter, regardless of which path you use. And quite frankly, as many people have mentioned, HR has maybe a few good encounters, and the rest are absolute trash and filler skills for Trapper cooldowns.
I'm not even going to bother making a list of the numerous changes that need to be made for each skill in order to make them remotely viable (and no, a 10% damage buff doesn't even do anything for skills that are absolute trash). Will just put this out there, first: FEEDBACK: increase HR damage by 30-50% for all skills, possibly with the exception of already-strong skills like Cordon of Arrows. This is after fixing/doing the aforementioned bugs/feedback lines in this post.
Tbh even starting as a 30% damage buff (not a base damage buff as they've been doing, but an actual damage increase of that amount), we'll start to see some nice improvements in all the paths' damage.
This has been the most concise and constructive comment i have seen on this thread(mind you this is my opinion) and so I am doing my part by not letting this just be forgotten because of all these subsequent "useless" replies(personal attacks) that is in no way should even be in this thread as it contributes to nothing.
Alright, let's get back on topic because this is just degenerating into moronic arguments and hysteria.
Firstly, I'm going to put this out there: BUG: Swiftness of the Fox procs based on targets hit instead of encounter execution.
There's been no indication of whether this is a bug or not, so I may go as far as saying that I don't think the devs are aware of this particular issue. From the tooltip, Swiftness procing off targets hit does seem like a bug as I'm sure the tooltip indicates that it procs when an encounter power is used, not when it hits.
Let's sort out this first, and then see where Trapper stands in terms of balance. While 45% total cooldown reduction is fairly sizeable, I don't think it's completely unreasonable. Ideally 30% would probably be a bit more balanced, but for the purpose of this, 45% is fine. Especially if this is a bug, I'm pretty sure the Trapper playstyle is still going to be there especially if you stack some recovery, which is now a useful stat again.
I'm still going to stand by Thorned Roots needing a nerf. Even at 30-35% of an HR's total damage in an instance, that's still a massive 50% damage increase, and capable of going upwards of 100%. Yes, it's a T5 feat, but there's no other T5 feat that gives that much damage. FEEDBACK: Thorned Roots' damage values should be halved to bring it more in line with other damage feats.
Finally, with that sorted, HR needs a base damage buff. Archery and Combat need QoL changes as well as some buffs to their feats. Overall, HR cooldowns should be reduced by a further 10%. One thing that I don't think has been made clear at any point: having double the amount of encounters that other classes do is not the same thing as having double the damage. You're limited by animation execution time, and where one class can deal x amount of damage in one skill, at minimum HRs need to use at least 2 skills to match that damage, which means we lose DPS purely because of the time it takes to use multiple encounters. Additionally, as it stands right now, even using 2 HR encounters does not do the same amount of damage as another class's single encounter, regardless of which path you use. And quite frankly, as many people have mentioned, HR has maybe a few good encounters, and the rest are absolute trash and filler skills for Trapper cooldowns.
I'm not even going to bother making a list of the numerous changes that need to be made for each skill in order to make them remotely viable (and no, a 10% damage buff doesn't even do anything for skills that are absolute trash). Will just put this out there, first: FEEDBACK: increase HR damage by 30-50% for all skills, possibly with the exception of already-strong skills like Cordon of Arrows. This is after fixing/doing the aforementioned bugs/feedback lines in this post.
Tbh even starting as a 30% damage buff (not a base damage buff as they've been doing, but an actual damage increase of that amount), we'll start to see some nice improvements in all the paths' damage.
Im for this our armor sets already stack recovery! but now recovery only works out of combat since a few mods back that would have to be changed THANKS BECKY LUNATIC I WAS MISTAKEN! so give us longer cool downs make swiftness of the fox single target I see from experience it would work because this causes cooldown issues. In WOD when fighting The Dragon rider in Cult patrol. when its just him left so I know that would work .
So boost damage over all this is truly the only way to have all three trees of HR be equally playable.
As far as thorned roots we are under preforming so boost damage over all , then see if thorned roots have to be reduced. When we get to level across board all three trees are working correctly or we could be over powered, but when clear the ground or rapid shot does a lot less of what others at wills do something wrong. Now the way to fix this is make our damage over all stronger. Others have a single target dps that does 140k to you in damage we need to be able to do something like that also Ara
I believe the ones that come by are the reamining HR lovers in Neverwinter Online, and I know that everybody has something I their mind, so it is impossible to make everyone happy with the recent changes.
I'm also happy about the feedback we saw from the Developers/Moderators of the game. Here comes the thoughts:
* HR community of the game is one of the communities that are very much aware of their class, so the minimal changes or as you call them buffs unfortunately won't really make the community happy. First of all you should be aware of that.
* Secondly, I believe that Hunter Ranger class is the most fun class in the game, and it has the potential to be much more enjoyable with some little tweaks.
* As you all suggested here, HR really lacks a power that has high initial damage before all the buffs, multipliers etc. Probably every other class has it like ; Lashing Blade - TR , Indomitable Battle Strike - GWF , Disintegrate - CW etc. Long story short, every damage dealer even some of the tank classes have some strikes that are much powerful damage dealing skills in their encounter slots while Hunters really lack one.
* My suggestion at this point is that simply making Binding Arrow one of those powers. Make its damage start from 10k to 12k while the players are just a fresh level 70 as the other skills I mentioned above. Since it's a skill that has so little chance the play a role of an AoE power, it will give the players the ability to hit hard in PvP and also give them the chance to place it into their slots in order to hit bosses, elites, or whatever it is that's bothering the player. I should also mention that the power also remain as a Strong Grasping Root proccer. Nobody has to worry about the DoT effect coming from Thorned Roots because it is affected by Weapon Damage itself. I am not saying keep this change for Module 10 live server, just apply this change in preview and see how well the population reacts to this change. I am sure of it because this way, you will give
their encounter powers. Also it will be a real damage dealer for Archers. With that skill in slot it will also solve some of the problems of the survivability for Hunter Rangers. So it is a win - win situation for everybody.
* For the next, you should see that if you try to solve the problem with power adjustments, it'll be real mess to balance them for Trappers, so your real answer to your problems comes from the Feat Trees. Just adjust/change the feats accordingly for Combat and Archer trees and you are good to go.
* This one makes me angry when I see them like every other Hunter Ranger; our at-wills are really powerless in comparison to the other classes. By the way you should be aware that an increase to at-wills will not effect Trappers since they are really not using them, but it'll make the life so much fun in Neverwinter Lands for Archers and especially Combatters. Make Rapid Shot hit literally x3, and Clear The Ground x5 and see how the community react to them. Everyone will be happy and people will literally start to think about being Archers or Combatters.
Last of all, here is an extended version of my thoughts on Hunter Ranger. The things I mentioned above are the ones to take the priority, though.
Again, thanks for trying to bring more fun to the HR community. As an HR fan in this game, I encourage you to be much more brave when it comes to changes because we hoped for these changes for long, and at least be brave in Preview so we can see what would it be like if things were like how we thought them to be because no one here wants to be a broken player among the others, we just need to be in a competitive space. Thank you very much.
Edit: Ooops, I forgot to mention Crushing Roots. If I was the one to decide how the game is going to live, I would erase this skill from existance and accept the fact that I did wrong while bringing this skill to the game because it's even making me insane sometimes as the one who is using it in the first place.
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hypergorila2Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 73Arc User
edited July 2016
When he HR changes were announced I was really looking forward to them and one thing that I really though was going to get adjusted was:
aspect of the serpent.
This is a great class feature, but as is, its very difficult to take the most advantage from it and even some experienced HRs struggle to understand how it works and how to use properly. Aspect of the serpent comes down to building stacks for a stance and getting benefits from said stacks, however one can never have stacks from both stances which causes bad use of it and puts a high burden on players to manage properly.
This feat should get a rework to make it more in line with other class feats that increase damage. In other classes (and pls don’t linch me, i’m not screaming for nerfs), feats that give damage come down to either doing damage to deal more damage or taking damage to deal more damage, which puts aspect of the serpent in a significant disadvantage because to get stacks for a stance u first need to consume the other stance stacks and is only after this that u start getting stacks for the other stance.
My proposition (and I know this is not a "how I would fixe it" thread so sorry in advance) would be to make the serpent stacks work similarly to the stacks from twisted set. When adding to one stance stack (paranoia as analogy) u would remove from the other stance (bloodlust) but always keep a minimum of 1 stack in each stance and having a max of 3 stacks. This would mean that simply having serpent sloted would give a damage buff. Granted that trappers would probably get the most out of it but even for pure archers or combat, just having it slotted would benefit them. And as pure archers or combat builds have cool downs on their encounters i don’t think it would be unreasonable for them to switch stance from time to time, get stacks for their stance of choice with say one or two at wills before dropping their encounters. Pure archers or combat players may not like this but stance switching is the class mechanic and doing it from time to time seems, at least to me, reasonable.
Aspect of the serpent is great, but imho it needs to be adapted to get more in line with the other classes features that give damage boosts and make it a bit easier to use.
When he HR changes were announced I was really looking forward to them and one thing that I really though was going to get adjusted was:
aspect of the serpent.
This is a great class feature, but as is, its very difficult to take the most advantage from it and even some experienced HRs struggle to understand how it works and how to use properly. Aspect of the serpent comes down to building stacks for a stance and getting benefits from said stacks, however one can never have stacks from both stances which causes bad use of it puts a high burden on players to manage properly.
This feat should get a rework to make it more in line with other class feats that increase damage. In other classes (and pls don’t linch me, i’m not screaming for nerfs), feats that give damage come down to either doing damage to deal more damage or taking damage to deal more damage, which puts aspect of the serpent in a significant disadvantage because to get stacks for a stance u first need to consume the other stance stacks and is only after this that u start getting stacks for the other stance.
My proposition (and I know this is not a "how I would fixe it" thread so sorry in advance) would be to make the serpent stacks work similarly to the stacks from twisted set. When adding to one stance stack (paranoia as analogy) u would remove from the other stance (bloodlust) but always keep a minimum of 1 stack in each stance and having a max of 3 stacks. This would mean that simply having serpent sloted would give a damage buff. Granted that trappers would probably get the most out of it but even for pure archers or combat, just having it slotted would benefit them. And as pure archers or combat builds have cool downs on their encounters i don’t think it would be unreasonable for them to switch stance from time to time, get stacks for their stance of choice with say one or two at wills before dropping their encounters. Pure archers or combat players may not like this but stance switching is the class mechanic and doing it from time to time seems, at least to me, reasonable.
Aspect of the serpent is great, but imho it needs to be adapted to get more in line with the other classes features that give damage boosts and make it a bit easier to use.
This is a very nice suggestion, makes things a whole lot easier if implemented. XD
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hypergorila2Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 73Arc User
When he HR changes were announced I was really looking forward to them and one thing that I really though was going to get adjusted was:
aspect of the serpent.
This is a great class feature, but as is, its very difficult to take the most advantage from it and even some experienced HRs struggle to understand how it works and how to use properly. Aspect of the serpent comes down to building stacks for a stance and getting benefits from said stacks, however one can never have stacks from both stances which causes bad use of it puts a high burden on players to manage properly.
This feat should get a rework to make it more in line with other class feats that increase damage. In other classes (and pls don’t linch me, i’m not screaming for nerfs), feats that give damage come down to either doing damage to deal more damage or taking damage to deal more damage, which puts aspect of the serpent in a significant disadvantage because to get stacks for a stance u first need to consume the other stance stacks and is only after this that u start getting stacks for the other stance.
My proposition (and I know this is not a "how I would fixe it" thread so sorry in advance) would be to make the serpent stacks work similarly to the stacks from twisted set. When adding to one stance stack (paranoia as analogy) u would remove from the other stance (bloodlust) but always keep a minimum of 1 stack in each stance and having a max of 3 stacks. This would mean that simply having serpent sloted would give a damage buff. Granted that trappers would probably get the most out of it but even for pure archers or combat, just having it slotted would benefit them. And as pure archers or combat builds have cool downs on their encounters i don’t think it would be unreasonable for them to switch stance from time to time, get stacks for their stance of choice with say one or two at wills before dropping their encounters. Pure archers or combat players may not like this but stance switching is the class mechanic and doing it from time to time seems, at least to me, reasonable.
Aspect of the serpent is great, but imho it needs to be adapted to get more in line with the other classes features that give damage boosts and make it a bit easier to use.
This is a very nice suggestion, makes things a whole lot easier if implemented. XD
It gives small damage buff to HRs, and a greater buff if used properly and also doesn't affect things like dazes and stuff, making this change viable for PVP because it gives a damage boost and doesn't add to that problem that PVP players mention called "permadaze". I'm not a PVP player though i think what i said relative to it is correct (if not let me know). Also to get the most of serpent if it worked as i suggested it would still need to be managed. It wouldn't need the micro management it currently does but would still require some. I could mention some other classes passives and how easy it is to get tons of damage from them in comparison to serpent but I won't for obvious reasons, so these changes are not that far fetched. But yeah, I'm aware of the likelihood of these changes being implemented. I mainly posted this as "food for thought".
I was on test server and i'm ok with most changes(mostly i think its nerf then buff), but PLEASE don't mess with Steel breeze! Its critical to HR-trapper tree, no charges PLEASE! You'll just ruin pve-trapper!
I forgot to say more about changes, i usually dont like to post on forums...
When I firstly heard about HR "balance", wondering about future changes, my first tought was "oh man, they just realized how senseless is the target hits cap for Costricting Arrow and Seismic Shot". Then I started to dream about a HR that would not be anymore shamefully overdamaged by GWF, SW and CW.
Lol, not only you dont propose to remove the cap to previous skills, but also impose a cap to Plant Growth (a DoT) and Cold Steel Hurricane (a Daily used ONLY against big boxed targets or big clusters and that do 0 damage in many cases). Moreover, you reduce range of Steel Breeze by 5y. No other class gets these BIG limitations, neither TR. Whats your fear? That Trapper HR would overdamage CW, "one-click" GWF or "I Kill Orcus in 8 hits" SW? Dont worry, they wont. They cant. Never. For sure they wont with the changes you propose.
When few days ago i was looking to the changes you proposed, my first tought was: "oh man, they want to make playable Archery, finally they realized how a party with a Archery HR is a 4men party". Lol, guys, math is math, if in 2k-3k tier Archery HR does 1/10-1/8 of HR Trapper dps, even doubling the damage, its still 1/5-1/4.
So, lets nerf Trapper, lest mess up their rotation adding charges with long CD to Steel Breeze, no care if Trapper dps itself is 1/5-1/3 of CW, GWF and SW in 2k-3k tier and 1/3-1/2 of SW in 3k+ Tier (or even less, depending on player's skill). Because the point is, if you have not realized yet, you are nerfing Trapper to justify a pointless and totally insufficient Archery "improvement". Maybe unwanted, but you proposed a global situation worse than the previous for Trapper HR. After 8 months of frustration for playing an UP class, frankly i see this as an ungenerous "kidding".
Of course, its only sarcasm, nothing personal with anyone
Comments
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
HOWEVER if a nerf to CDs comes with a much greater buff to overall damage..hei im in
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
1st up... Melee Encounter Hindering Strike is broken. It does not apply any damage to Thorned Roots at all, currently Thorned Roots is applied from Hindering Strike but actually uses the Main Hand for the damage. You can easily test thing just by un-equipping the Bow... Then use Hindering Strike and watch the root tick damage, it is all 0. The Encounter Power should take into account the Off-Hand Weapon damage as well, considering it is a Melee Encounter.
If you use the Encounter Power Fox's Shift but dodge out of it fairly quickly. The skill no longer works but you can spam the Encounter button and the animation glitches out, but you cause no damage.
Aspect of the Pack is broken at Rank 4. It resets itself back to Rank 1 and it costs a fortune to Respec to take points out of the power. It only works up to Rank 3.
Natures Enhancement Feat does not work at all, putting points into it does not do anything on the X1. Completely broken.
Anything that states "uses weapon damage" in its calculations for damage for us is broken. For instance Lostmauth Set causes 25% Weapon damage on a Crit... It does not it just causes inbetween Main Hand and Off Hand damage... It should add the 2 Weapons together. Most things I have tested is like this for the HR which is probably why a lot of people think we are under-powered. I have a strong feeling both weapons are not used in a lot of damage calculations.
Feytouched is currently broken in PvE and only procs once. It will only proc again if you die or change zones etc. Very expensive broken Trans Enchant sitting in my bank. (if this is fixed I apologise as I have not tested it for some time)
I probably have a few more but wanted to get a post in before reading the rest of the thread.
Alts :
Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
Member of Q-Snipe
Yeah, they're playable, but can be abused too due to the number of bugs.
Any other class with cool downs bores the HAMSTER out of me and I cannot play them for long.
Stick cool downs on me and force me to slow down my combos and button mashing and that would be it for me I am afraid.
Alts :
Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
Member of Q-Snipe
It really sounds like a lot of people miss their beloved archer or combat HR's. I get it, once you love the playstyle of a character you're hooked but destroying another tree isn't the solution. The devs need to do their jobs and fix the other trees, not just change the current meta. If the archer get fixed at the expense of the trapper, everyone flocks to the archer. This solves nothing.
As for this Xbox vs pc none sense, come on guys look at the bigger picture here. Don't turn this thread into childish attacks, get back to the topic at hand.
Character: Vendetta
1 - most HRs use specific powers, because they get the most dps out of them and that's what this game ultimately boils down to. Boosting an unused power by as much as 67% is great and all, but if it's still less than what another power would do, it's going to remain unused. eg. Cordon vs. Rain of Arrows - Cordon does significantly better damage, *AND* has the added benefit of a short-lasting AoE crowd control. You'll need to do better than increasing Rain's AoE range a wee bit for me to consider dropping Cordon for it.
2 - yay on Shift's slight increase in distance covered. Very much requested, and much appreciated.
3 - while the boosts to various powers' damage was appreciated, there still exists several powers (including those that were adjusted) that are still underperforming. A boost of, say, 67% to a power's damage output sounds impressive - until you realize that the base damage was so low already that a 2/3rds boost upwards is still negligable compared to some other powers. I understand the issue of careful balancing of powers, since we are considered to have 6 encounter powers compared to other classes 3, but several are still weak and will remain unused unless they get further improvements.
I feel as though the base damage on numerous powers, combined with further ranks in those powers improving things other than their damage (i.e. improving range, for instance, is common on several powers' rank improvements) make them undesirable compared to those that improve damage with rank increases.
4 - cooldown charges. They limit our dps on non-stop killfests already; adding more will simply make the issue worse.
Our dps drops notably in fights where there are numerous adds, over a long period of time, and things such as Cordon, Hindering Shot, etc., run out of charges and effectively become unusable encounter powers.
Ultimately, there's a reason my HR's run Trapper, and consider slotting what I slot, and these changes do not look to change this.
eg. Longstrider's dps boost + Aspect of the Serpent dps boost on swaps (with Serpent's Bite = +34% at rank2 for one hit) + Biting Snares' +30% damage every 10 seconds or so, paired with a heavy hitter such as Cordon or Plant Growth, is what gives us our burst dps, and nothing has changed there to make me consider changing out that 1-2-3 punch combination. DoT damage is also unchanged with Thorned Roots + Plant Growth making up most of my AoE DoT dps. Minor boosts to some of these powers as well as some at-wills give a modest dps boost, as I noted in the intro, but nothing spectacular.
I haven't tested Combat or Archery yet, but I'm not convinced that I need to. Nothing from the notes suggests that those paths will be able to compete with Trapper - and they need to outperform Trapper for me to consider giving up the great dps *and* crowd control that the path offers.
Sleek Pepper
Midnight Express
The way the patch note describe saying that a 0.1s is what we loose (due bug), due being applied twice make me think that Crushing Roots always was dazing for 0.1s whatever weak or strong grasping root was applied, thereafter means that Crushing Roots power is under performing, and in this circumstance, would be nice to have it fixed accordingly to what the tool tip state about how long it has to last.
Firstly, I'm going to put this out there:
BUG: Swiftness of the Fox procs based on targets hit instead of encounter execution.
There's been no indication of whether this is a bug or not, so I may go as far as saying that I don't think the devs are aware of this particular issue. From the tooltip, Swiftness procing off targets hit does seem like a bug as I'm sure the tooltip indicates that it procs when an encounter power is used, not when it hits.
Let's sort out this first, and then see where Trapper stands in terms of balance. While 45% total cooldown reduction is fairly sizeable, I don't think it's completely unreasonably. Ideally 30% would probably be a bit more balanced, but for the purpose of this, 45% is fine. Especially if this is a bug, I'm pretty sure the Trapper playstyle is still going to be there especially if you stack some recovery, which is now a useful stat again.
I'm still going to stand by Thorned Roots needing a nerf. Even at 30-35% of an HR's total damage in an instance, that's still a massive 50% damage increase, and capable of going upwards of 100%. Yes, it's a T5 feat, but there's no other T5 feat that gives that much damage.
FEEDBACK: Thorned Roots' damage values should be halved to bring it more in line with other damage feats.
Finally, with that sorted, HR needs a base damage buff. Archery and Combat need QoL changes as well as some buffs to their feats. Overall, HR cooldowns should be reduced by a further 10%. One thing that I don't think has been made clear at any point: having double the amount of encounters that other classes do is not the same thing as having double the damage. You're limited by animation execution time, and where one class can deal x amount of damage in one skill, at minimum HRs need to use at least 2 skills to match that damage, which means we lose DPS purely because of the time it takes to use multiple encounters. Additionally, as it stands right now, even using 2 HR encounters does not do the same amount of damage as another class's single encounter, regardless of which path you use. And quite frankly, as many people have mentioned, HR has maybe a few good encounters, and the rest are absolute trash and filler skills for Trapper cooldowns.I'm not even going to bother making a list of the numerous changes that need to be made for each skill in order to make them remotely viable (and no, a 10% damage buff doesn't even do anything for skills that are absolute trash). Will just put this out there, first:
FEEDBACK: increase HR damage by 30-50% for all skills, possibly with the exception of already-strong skills like Cordon of Arrows. This is after fixing/doing the aforementioned bugs/feedback lines in this post.
Tbh even starting as a 30% damage buff (not a base damage buff as they've been doing, but an actual damage increase of that amount), we'll start to see some nice improvements in the different path damage.Also a final note, I'd like to leave this 1.5-year old thread here for reference:
BUGS: see this thread for full list of bugs. http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/548324/list-of-mod-5-preview-hr-bugs/p1
This thread might be old but I'm pretty sure that 99% of the bugs I mentioned are still there, as well as additional bugs that have been mentioned elsewhere.Hawk shot should have a push back feature, and have it's damage equal or greater to Cordon of arrows
Aimed shot should decrease cooldown far more than 0.5s on max, 1.5s would be Ok imo
Anf if you really want us to use Aimed shot more properly give us a feat that reduce it's casting time by half
Damage on Marauder's escape should be AoE and pumped up, and the cooldown could use a feat to reduce it too
I can only agree on the reducing the number of creeps affected by our encounters by 5, if any other enconter in the game don't have more than 5 targets cap either
Give hasty retreat something to restore our stamina by a set amount by each hit we take and increase our speed when hit by something like 50% on max
Making throw cauting buff affect the party would rise the vallue of this power a lot
Electric shot max damage is lower than split shot minimum damage, it's better to spam split than to use it, so I suggest to look it up again
Broaded Head arrows feat is really weak right now, could use some look into it too, I'd sugged add critical severy, or something else
Archery's capstone has been needing some love for a long time, I'm surprised that you have done anything to it for now, this entire path three is revolved around critical strikes, I suggest we have some interaction with critical strikes - marked prey, like adding a big nasty critical strike severity to it/irresistible damage/heavy slow/% damage with a big cap to bosses so that it is actually useful, one or two of those should IMO be considerable, or else 40% damage to one target doesn't feel like a capstone feat to me, it's really really weak in the state it is
Stillness of the forest should add something like heavely decreasing our threat when we are near something, or else it's only a punishing feat when we cannot maintein our distance, (decreasing the cooldown on marauder's escape by half, could be here)
edited some typos
Firstly, I'm going to put this out there:
BUG: Swiftness of the Fox procs based on targets hit instead of encounter execution.
There's been no indication of whether this is a bug or not, so I may go as far as saying that I don't think the devs are aware of this particular issue. From the tooltip, Swiftness procing off targets hit does seem like a bug as I'm sure the tooltip indicates that it procs when an encounter power is used, not when it hits.
Let's sort out this first, and then see where Trapper stands in terms of balance. While 45% total cooldown reduction is fairly sizeable, I don't think it's completely unreasonable. Ideally 30% would probably be a bit more balanced, but for the purpose of this, 45% is fine. Especially if this is a bug, I'm pretty sure the Trapper playstyle is still going to be there especially if you stack some recovery, which is now a useful stat again.
I'm still going to stand by Thorned Roots needing a nerf. Even at 30-35% of an HR's total damage in an instance, that's still a massive 50% damage increase, and capable of going upwards of 100%. Yes, it's a T5 feat, but there's no other T5 feat that gives that much damage.
FEEDBACK: Thorned Roots' damage values should be halved to bring it more in line with other damage feats.
Finally, with that sorted, HR needs a base damage buff. Archery and Combat need QoL changes as well as some buffs to their feats. Overall, HR cooldowns should be reduced by a further 10%. One thing that I don't think has been made clear at any point: having double the amount of encounters that other classes do is not the same thing as having double the damage. You're limited by animation execution time, and where one class can deal x amount of damage in one skill, at minimum HRs need to use at least 2 skills to match that damage, which means we lose DPS purely because of the time it takes to use multiple encounters. Additionally, as it stands right now, even using 2 HR encounters does not do the same amount of damage as another class's single encounter, regardless of which path you use. And quite frankly, as many people have mentioned, HR has maybe a few good encounters, and the rest are absolute trash and filler skills for Trapper cooldowns.
I'm not even going to bother making a list of the numerous changes that need to be made for each skill in order to make them remotely viable (and no, a 10% damage buff doesn't even do anything for skills that are absolute trash). Will just put this out there, first:
FEEDBACK: increase HR damage by 30-50% for all skills, possibly with the exception of already-strong skills like Cordon of Arrows. This is after fixing/doing the aforementioned bugs/feedback lines in this post.
Tbh even starting as a 30% damage buff (not a base damage buff as they've been doing, but an actual damage increase of that amount), we'll start to see some nice improvements in all the paths' damage.
I mainly soloed the small encounters (Thwarth Sacrifices and Patrols).
It didn't feel much different than live. I used Constrictive/Cordon/Hindering mainly because you need control as the mobs hit hard.
Feedback (Steel Breeze): the charges to Steel Breeze are not a big issue with my 5k of recovery as long as the are at least two enemies. This is probably due to multiprocs of Swiftness. As soon as you are left with one target the situation is quite different and you need to start using at-wills. This mainly happened with the Drake Rider before he gets dismounted.
Feedback (Gushing Wound): thumbs up for the change to Gushing Wound. It is a real melter now especially for nasty mobs like the White Dragonwings.
I specifically looked at the difference between Plant Growth only and Gushing+Growth and it is really clear, while before Gushing in solo was not really noticeable.
Targeting is still a bit clunky and you often feel you have missed even if you actually hit, but the change to being a targeting skill really helps (on live I sometimes miss even on large targets like dragons probably because I activate just outside the actual range). Anyway it was almost impossible to properly use it against the Drake Rider without getting hit, so I still feel that in PVP it will be difficult to use it on fast moving targets that can retaliate.
Feedback (Crushing Roots): the difference is really not visible. Mobs blinked and then were active again pretty much as it is in live so the fix didn't make it less effective.
An increase of the dazing time in PVE would be welcome (I understand this would be an issue on PVP so I propose it only for PVE). This will mainly help low geared HRs in solo (Icewind, Well and the new campaign) and in dungeons. High geared HRs will shift to damage based passives to clear stuff faster anyway.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Unless there's a change of direction to how the devs are approaching this (and there absolutely should be), a temporary fix to our inability to deal damage to most classes in pvp would be a change to thorned roots. HR and SW both suffer from the fact that our damage is mostly damage-over-time, and the tankier classes simply out-heal that damage - as others have remarked.
Thorned Roots should therefore change its effect on control-immune targets, and instead of simply dealing an additional 400% weapon damage, after which DOT ineffectually ticks away, it should convert all the forthcoming DOT to burst damage. Sounds huge? It should. We need huge help in pvp. Mathematically it would make no difference in pve where we usually have enough armor penetration to entirely bypass a target's damage resistance anyway.
Similar fixes could no doubt apply to the archery and combat trees. For combat it could be an undo to the mod 4 nerf of piercing blade or some other adjustment to that feat. For archery it doesn't fit neatly anywhere in the existing t4/t5 feats, and it shouldn't be a buff to longshot since t3 feats invite overpowered hybrid builds. Archery obviously needs a thorough rewrite anyway. I'd suggest a feat named, say, bodkin arrows (the type used to pierce plate armor) which would add a piercing damage similar to piercing blade. Maybe replace Rising Focus, which is underpowered for a t5 feat anyway.
Overall, though, I think the comments on this and the announcement thread show the disappointment felt by the HR community. We've been waiting since the launch of mod 6 for some help for the class and this too-little, too-late approach that takes almost none of the community's longstanding input into account is not what we need.
Matz, keep being awesome.
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I find so much is under-powered or no power at all due to having 2 weapon damage types. This seems to really mess with a lot of damage calculations. As I mentioned earlier Off-Hand Weapon damage is not even taken in to account for a lot of our damage, especially Thorned Roots.
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> Buffing hunters? Sure maybe stuff hardly anybody uses. and killing stuff people do use. I am a pve hr, and honestly a very good one at that. You are KILLING us. There are hardly any good pve hr compared to other classes. Most I've hr I see are trash, no offense to anyone. You're NERFING our hardest hitting power, killing our stamina regen which keeps us alive because we get hit once and most of us go splat. I pull aggro like no freaking other. How the heck am I supposed to survive? I don't want a damage buff to steel breeze. Heck, go ahead and make it weaker, just don't give it charges with a darn cool down. Its ridiculous. plant growth max 5? Jesus many of us barely do dps as is, take that away and the best of us wont even be able to do decent dps. I can understand pvp peole disliking the perma roto, but for petes sake, its the only thing giving pve hunters a chance. take this as whining or whatever, but I will quit if the changes to plant growth and steel breeze, as was originally planned, actually happen. You will KILL the only truly relevant pve build we have. reading rhse changes has upset me on a level that truly disturbs me. I almost quit this game a whole ago and the pace of the hunter kept me playing and spending thousands on my hunter. idk how your internal hrs deemsd this a positive change but they are WRONG. please actually read what the MAJORITY of people are saying and listen to them! I am not saying all the changes are bad, heck some of then are pretty nice, however you CANNOT do this to steel breeze and plant growth without destroying us pve hunters. Its absurd. Read the feed back, nobody thinks this charge thing is a good idea, nor the cap to plant growth. BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD. I will regret ever spending a dime on this game and will not even think twice of quitting. please rethink your "buff" because the only buff I see coming from this is the buff to me hitting the uninstall button easier. Truly truly truly disappointed edit: You asked foe feedback, I'm giving you my honest opinion without holding back. the best buff you could give us at this point is by NOT messing with those two powers at all. They are fine as they are now. I never had any intention of even looking at forums but after hearing this, I had to say something.
Totally agreed. This changes will destroy pve trapper. No dmg.. no surv..
Steel Breeze: Damage increased ~75%. Its defensive skill... 75% to 0dmg is still will be 0dmg.. and charges will make this skill useless.
Plant Growth: Now properly has a target cap of 5. Only strong side of pve trapper its aoe dmg.. will be dead now.
Rain of Swords: will be uselees untill u make it insta-cast.. or adding dodge to animation cast time like fox shift.
For HR get hitted in melee=death so i think all melee encounter of HR must be very fast to cast or even insta-cast it will fets HR play-style.
but now recovery only works out of combat since a fewmods back that would have to be changedTHANKS BECKY LUNATIC I WAS MISTAKEN! so give us longer cool downs make swiftness of the fox single target I see from experience it would work because this causes cooldown issues. In WOD when fighting The Dragon rider in Cult patrol. when its just him left so I know that would work .So boost damage over all this is truly the only way to have all three trees of HR be equally playable.
As far as thorned roots we are under preforming so boost damage over all , then see if thorned roots have to be reduced. When we get to level across board all three trees are working correctly or we could be over powered, but when clear the ground or rapid shot does a lot less of what others at wills do something wrong. Now the way to fix this is make our damage over all stronger. Others have a single target dps that does 140k to you in damage we need to be able to do something like that also
Ara
I believe the ones that come by are the reamining HR lovers in Neverwinter Online, and I know that everybody has something I their mind, so it is impossible to make everyone happy with the recent changes.
I'm also happy about the feedback we saw from the Developers/Moderators of the game. Here comes the thoughts:
* HR community of the game is one of the communities that are very much aware of their class, so the minimal changes or as you call them buffs unfortunately won't really make the community happy. First of all you should be aware of that.
* Secondly, I believe that Hunter Ranger class is the most fun class in the game, and it has the potential to be much more enjoyable with some little tweaks.
* As you all suggested here, HR really lacks a power that has high initial damage before all the buffs, multipliers etc. Probably every other class has it like ; Lashing Blade - TR , Indomitable Battle Strike - GWF , Disintegrate - CW etc. Long story short, every damage dealer even some of the tank classes have some strikes that are much powerful damage dealing skills in their encounter slots while Hunters really lack one.
* My suggestion at this point is that simply making Binding Arrow one of those powers. Make its damage start from 10k to 12k while the players are just a fresh level 70 as the other skills I mentioned above. Since it's a skill that has so little chance the play a role of an AoE power, it will give the players the ability to hit hard in PvP and also give them the chance to place it into their slots in order to hit bosses, elites, or whatever it is that's bothering the player. I should also mention that the power also remain as a Strong Grasping Root proccer. Nobody has to worry about the DoT effect coming from Thorned Roots because it is affected by Weapon Damage itself. I am not saying keep this change for Module 10 live server, just apply this change in preview and see how well the population reacts to this change. I am sure of it because this way, you will give
/*The Trappers the chance to slot*/
-Binding Arrow
-Longstrider/Constricting/Fox/Hindering
-Cordon's Arrow
their encounter powers. Also it will be a real damage dealer for Archers. With that skill in slot it will also solve some of the problems of the survivability for Hunter Rangers. So it is a win - win situation for everybody.
* For the next, you should see that if you try to solve the problem with power adjustments, it'll be real mess to balance them for Trappers, so your real answer to your problems comes from the Feat Trees. Just adjust/change the feats accordingly for Combat and Archer trees and you are good to go.
* This one makes me angry when I see them like every other Hunter Ranger; our at-wills are really powerless in comparison to the other classes. By the way you should be aware that an increase to at-wills will not effect Trappers since they are really not using them, but it'll make the life so much fun in Neverwinter Lands for Archers and especially Combatters. Make Rapid Shot hit literally x3, and Clear The Ground x5 and see how the community react to them. Everyone will be happy and people will literally start to think about being Archers or Combatters.
Last of all, here is an extended version of my thoughts on Hunter Ranger. The things I mentioned above are the ones to take the priority, though.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1216460/an-extended-edition-hunter-ranger-discussion-from-an-experienced-player
Again, thanks for trying to bring more fun to the HR community. As an HR fan in this game, I encourage you to be much more brave when it comes to changes because we hoped for these changes for long, and at least be brave in Preview so we can see what would it be like if things were like how we thought them to be because no one here wants to be a broken player among the others, we just need to be in a competitive space. Thank you very much.
Edit: Ooops, I forgot to mention Crushing Roots. If I was the one to decide how the game is going to live, I would erase this skill from existance and accept the fact that I did wrong while bringing this skill to the game because it's even making me insane sometimes as the one who is using it in the first place.
- aspect of the serpent.
This is a great class feature, but as is, its very difficult to take the most advantage from it and even some experienced HRs struggle to understand how it works and how to use properly.Aspect of the serpent comes down to building stacks for a stance and getting benefits from said stacks, however one can never have stacks from both stances which causes bad use of it and puts a high burden on players to manage properly.
This feat should get a rework to make it more in line with other class feats that increase damage. In other classes (and pls don’t linch me, i’m not screaming for nerfs), feats that give damage come down to either doing damage to deal more damage or taking damage to deal more damage, which puts aspect of the serpent in a significant disadvantage because to get stacks for a stance u first need to consume the other stance stacks and is only after this that u start getting stacks for the other stance.
My proposition (and I know this is not a "how I would fixe it" thread so sorry in advance) would be to make the serpent stacks work similarly to the stacks from twisted set. When adding to one stance stack (paranoia as analogy) u would remove from the other stance (bloodlust) but always keep a minimum of 1 stack in each stance and having a max of 3 stacks. This would mean that simply having serpent sloted would give a damage buff.
Granted that trappers would probably get the most out of it but even for pure archers or combat, just having it slotted would benefit them. And as pure archers or combat builds have cool downs on their encounters i don’t think it would be unreasonable for them to switch stance from time to time, get stacks for their stance of choice with say one or two at wills before dropping their encounters. Pure archers or combat players may not like this but stance switching is the class mechanic and doing it from time to time seems, at least to me, reasonable.
Aspect of the serpent is great, but imho it needs to be adapted to get more in line with the other classes features that give damage boosts and make it a bit easier to use.
Also to get the most of serpent if it worked as i suggested it would still need to be managed. It wouldn't need the micro management it currently does but would still require some. I could mention some other classes passives and how easy it is to get tons of damage from them in comparison to serpent but I won't for obvious reasons, so these changes are not that far fetched.
But yeah, I'm aware of the likelihood of these changes being implemented.
I mainly posted this as "food for thought".
When I firstly heard about HR "balance", wondering about future changes, my first tought was "oh man, they just realized how senseless is the target hits cap for Costricting Arrow and Seismic Shot". Then I started to dream about a HR that would not be anymore shamefully overdamaged by GWF, SW and CW.
Lol, not only you dont propose to remove the cap to previous skills, but also impose a cap to Plant Growth (a DoT) and Cold Steel Hurricane (a Daily used ONLY against big boxed targets or big clusters and that do 0 damage in many cases). Moreover, you reduce range of Steel Breeze by 5y. No other class gets these BIG limitations, neither TR. Whats your fear? That Trapper HR would overdamage CW, "one-click" GWF or "I Kill Orcus in 8 hits" SW? Dont worry, they wont. They cant. Never. For sure they wont with the changes you propose.
When few days ago i was looking to the changes you proposed, my first tought was: "oh man, they want to make playable Archery, finally they realized how a party with a Archery HR is a 4men party". Lol, guys, math is math, if in 2k-3k tier Archery HR does 1/10-1/8 of HR Trapper dps, even doubling the damage, its still 1/5-1/4.
So, lets nerf Trapper, lest mess up their rotation adding charges with long CD to Steel Breeze, no care if Trapper dps itself is 1/5-1/3 of CW, GWF and SW in 2k-3k tier and 1/3-1/2 of SW in 3k+ Tier (or even less, depending on player's skill). Because the point is, if you have not realized yet, you are nerfing Trapper to justify a pointless and totally insufficient Archery "improvement". Maybe unwanted, but you proposed a global situation worse than the previous for Trapper HR. After 8 months of frustration for playing an UP class, frankly i see this as an ungenerous "kidding".
Of course, its only sarcasm, nothing personal with anyone