What Paingiver doesn't tell you:

thefabricant

A lot of the older players are aware of this, but its been a very long time since someone posted an explanation about it, so newer players might not be familiar with this information.

1) Paingiver does not tell you who has the highest DPS.
2) Paingiver does not tell you who has the best gear.
3) Paingiver does not tell you who is the best player.
4) Paingiver does not tell you how fast a run was.
5) Paingiver does not tell you which class does the most DPS.

So, if paingiver does none of the above, what does paingiver tell you? Well, its a dirty secret. Paingiver tells you who removed the most hitpoints from enemies. This might sound a lot like damage dealt, or dps, but it isn't. The difference is, say an opponent has 5000 life and you deal 10000 damage, paingiver will record 5000, even though you actually did 10000 damage. This means that even if you have lower DPS than someone else, all you need to win on paingiver, is remove enough of your opponents HP, so that the person with higher dps than you, doesn't have enough HP left to show it. Paingiver is not about maximizing personal DPS, its about minimizing everyone else in the parties dps. For example say you are playing a DC and you want to win on paingiver, although using BTS would be really good for party dps, it won't make you look good on paingiver and so if you really want to maximize the cheese and win on paingiver, you don't use it. You replace it with something else. This ends up making the dungeon run slower, but it will show up favorably on paingiver. The class that most frequently wins paingiver is GWF, its not because their dps is much higher than other classes, in fact, in a standing fight when nobody runs ahead, they break even with other classes, its because they run ahead. The GWF sprint button allows them to get to the enemy before anyone else, allowing them to start dealing damage before anyone else, but in reality, they aren't actually doing more damage than anyone else, they just "puffing up their numbers" to make themselves look good.

A good example of this was when I did an edemo run recently with a max buff group. There were multiple GWFs in the run, all similarly geared, but 1 stood out on paingiver far above the rest of him. When I talked to him later, he said that what he was doing was starting his rotation on the trash monsters with IBS. This was because, there were so many buffs and debuffs going around, that IBS alone would instantly kill the trash monsters from full life. Although any decent GWF would tell you that to do the most dps, you have to put up your self buffs first, in order to win on paingiver, all you have to do, is make sure nobody else lands a hit.

The most misleading thing about paingiver is the fact that it steers players away from valuing support builds. A group with a Tactician GF, Debuff DC, MoF rene CW and then pretty much any 2 DPS, will clear content much faster than a group with 5 people contesting paingiver. A team of 5, will always do better than a group of 5 individuals.

I hope this topic helps clarify a few things to those of you who were not aware of this.

throsbi

maybe you should do one for each chart as it is possible to manipulate all the charts if the player knows how the charts work. Ever wonder how that bottom paingiver tops the kill charts? or some other class out healing the healer???

The charts are a tool and how you use them determines which tool is being used.

thefabricant

throsbi said:

maybe you should do one for each chart as it is possible to manipulate all the charts if the player knows how the charts work. Ever wonder how that bottom paingiver tops the kill charts? or some other class out healing the healer???

The charts are a tool and how you use them determines which tool is being used.

Yep, I could cover all of them, paingiver is the one obsessed over the most though.

sax1993

That second to last sentence sums it all up.

As a Righteous DC main who focuses on buffing/debuffing and DPS I couldn't agree more with this. I have 4 classes and 3 of them support and you can argue that my 4th, a HR can support as well.

It's funny, 90% my guild loves running with me but there are a few that are still uninformed and think I'm stupid for running full Righteous with my HP set because I'm squishy (I only die if the GF decides to afk and I run ahead), don't heal, and don't come close to top of the paingiver "you're DPS and the same item level as me but I double/triple your damage, what a waste".

rapo973

As a DC I'm not obsessed. It's true the opposite: I rely on the obsession coming from paingivers to run dongeons

wildfirede

and not to forgett skills that don't actually do damage give paingiver 'points'

And yet if you manage to kill the mobs before anyone else your dps is actually higher than anyone else the gwf you are talking about - yes on trash he used a different rotation - adaptation wins


Else yea worthless player manipulated statistic - the mage did 10milion and the paladin did 2mil but 3mil of the mage pain giver points were due to the paladin not being a jerk and stacking hp and using aura of courage instead of stacking lifesteal and using aura of radiance. Else it would be 8 mage vs 4 pala.

So actually not being a jerk gets you more damage (in the form of mage procing courage) and less paingiver...


regarding parties flaming dc's for not being paingivers - ignore/leave them imo

flyingleon

Gwf running ahead makes a bit sense, because taking damage also gives determination, but yeah, paingiver chart is pain giver chart, nothing else.

beckylunatic

throsbi said:

Ever wonder how that bottom paingiver tops the kill charts? or some other class out healing the healer???

The former is usually the product of a lot of AoE against weak mobs, while whoever took paingiver was focused on single-target DPSing the beefier stuff. This isn't even necessarily symptomic of poor play. I consistently see OPs in content like CTA skirmishes get the most kills because they are laying down AoEs with radiant DoT and they're not doing anything wrong as far as the content goes (not even using Relentless Avenger).

The latter can have a bunch of contributing factors. Self-heals count, including life-steal. Companion heals count, and if you have a companion out that heals the party, that can count for a lot.

wildfirede

Those 2 gems had to be posted:
http://www.darklegacycomics.com/39

and

http://www.darklegacycomics.com/46

flyingleon

magenubbie said:

Very well said. In particular the part below.

thefabricant said:

The most misleading thing about paingiver is the fact that it steers players away from valuing support builds. A group with a Tactician GF, Debuff DC, MoF rene CW and then pretty much any 2 DPS, will clear content much faster than a group with 5 people contesting paingiver. A team of 5, will always do better than a group of 5 individuals.

I still really wish they'd either do away with all these charts or provide personal information only. This chart obsession is getting ridiculous.

flyingleon said:

Gwf running ahead makes a bit sense, because taking damage also gives determination, but yeah, paingiver chart is pain giver chart, nothing else.

It doesn't even make a little bit of sense. 1 GWFs determination does not make up for all the buff/debuffs the entire group can provide. It's ego-feeding. "Look at me go! I'm the best because I don't care to wait for my team!!". Nothing more.

Naah, I would not go that extreme. The main reason you should wait for your party (in the case you can handle situation alone) is because it is polite, especially for the slowest player, mostly tanks. That is why I wait for my party. You don't lose party buff/debuff at same time. you run faster dose not make your party slow, by the time you get the buff/debuff, you will still get buff/debuff. I suggest players to wait for their party. When I run my GF, it gives me pressure to catch up the fastest player. But this thread is not about waiting, right?

I was basically saying that to engage mobs ahead gives gwf more determination, this is similar to tanks get more aggro. I did not say run ahead by how much. That is why I say makes a bit sense.
There are also players like to play aggressively to see if they can handle the situation. They may not know how annoying this to a tank. I would not go extreme to say that all is for ego-feeding.

throsbi

beckylunatic said:

throsbi said:

Ever wonder how that bottom paingiver tops the kill charts? or some other class out healing the healer???

The former is usually the product of a lot of AoE against weak mobs, while whoever took paingiver was focused on single-target DPSing the beefier stuff. This isn't even necessarily symptomic of poor play. I consistently see OPs in content like CTA skirmishes get the most kills because they are laying down AoEs with radiant DoT and they're not doing anything wrong as far as the content goes (not even using Relentless Avenger).

The latter can have a bunch of contributing factors. Self-heals count, including life-steal. Companion heals count, and if you have a companion out that heals the party, that can count for a lot.

I agree and there are more ways to play the charts............I usually dont even open them and wish they didnt auto pop up but sometimes when you get a chart happy tourist you have to force the hand. As OP said the paingiver seems to be the everyone is oogling

wildfirede said:

Those 2 gems had to be posted:

http://www.darklegacycomics.com/39



and



http://www.darklegacycomics.com/46

Those made my day. TY

mamalion1234

they need to design the combat log like the act is so we dont have use act.

mamalion1234

Also the healing done board shouldnt stress devoted cleric. BOTH cleric and paladin devotion they heal much more than the targets need. YES Devotion can burst heal 1m but also and cleric can do bastion 300k . those numbers are much more than players hp. EVEN in pvp with healing depression i count them as equal.

jaegernl

While I do agree with the general sentiment, and fully awknowledge the flaws in the Paingiver chart, it's not all bad.

I'm not the most competative around, but sometimes looking at the Paingiver chart makes me want to 'give it a little extra'. When you're getting out-done by someone, a bit of friendly competition doesn't hurt. Makes the run a little more fun for me. Sometimes. Generally, I couldn't give a rats behind about my position, as long as the run felt - speed, ease, teamwork - right.

And while you say it steers people away from support-type builds, I guess the opposite could be argued, too. When you see someone absolutely wrecking the mobs, leaving little damage for you to do, sometimes the better option is to load up a little more support-type skills - so, say, switch out a pure DPS skill for something like Longstrider's Shot in the case of HR - to increase the over-all effectiveness of the party. I'll admit, though, that I doubt that's something people take away from looking at the chart, but ideal world and all that.

I'm fine with the way the charts work. It might just be the people I run with, but I hardly ever notice a lack of support-types. 90% of the time there's at least two of the three major support contributors - GF, MoF Rene, Righteous DC - in those parties. If people take great pleasure in seeing themselves at the top of the chart, more power to them. By now, I know who *I* have to thank for the ungodly hard-hitting attacks when we clear CN in record time.

And in the end, though, I guess we also need the people who always aim for the top spot. You can buff and debuff all you want, but in the end you'll need someone to pull the trigger, so to speak. While they take pleasure in blowing everything up, I'll be pleased looking over the log and seeing good uptime on the buffs and a high effectiveness on the hits. And admit it, you too take a bit of pleasure off of being top Paingiver, even though you're fully aware the way it's measured is flawed.

arandompanda

I am in favor of people running in teams whatever build they enjoy and keeps them playing the game. If Paingiver matters, that's good. If it doesn't matter, that's also good.

foxxy

You know? as a healer i always checked on the most healed chart. It always places me on top who was the most healed, and i thought: but how? i took almost no damage, barely falling below 80%, how is that i was the most healed? Then i noticed the most healed chart isnt the player who had to heal his hp the most, but the healer who use healing spells on everyone, so those healed missing hp are added to the healer chart.

rapo973

mamalion1234 said:

Also the healing done board shouldnt stress devoted cleric. BOTH cleric and paladin devotion they heal much more than the targets need. YES Devotion can burst heal 1m but also and cleric can do bastion 300k . those numbers are much more than players hp. EVEN in pvp with healing depression i count them as equal.

There's no competition between a cleric and an OP devotion: the latter heals better.
Fortunately I'm not stressed by the healing chart: I just use it to check the overall amount of heals. If the values are "low", it means that I did my job well.

silence1x

wildfirede said:

Those 2 gems had to be posted:

http://www.darklegacycomics.com/39



and



http://www.darklegacycomics.com/46

good stuff there . . .

deathbeez

I rarely (until recently) ever look at the paingiver chart (or any chart really) unless I'm in a PUG with very low geared players and wonder why we're doing so badly or taking so long or when 1 player is soloing with ease.

greywynd

"I got Paingiver? Woohoo! What's the next job?"

mamalion1234

most deaths can be tricky and blame the support class when in reality the damage dealers run front and sometimes they cant handle and they wipe.

tornnomar

mamalion1234 said:

most deaths can be tricky and blame the support class when in reality the damage dealers run front and sometimes they cant handle and they wipe.

I see this all too much. The funny thing is all of these Laz/Lia/Zerg clones will top Paingiver anyway. So just just stay with the group. This way you won't top two charts: Paingiver and Times Downed.

rinat114

Not sure I feel comfortable being in the same sentence as zerg clones...

Regardless, while I fully agree with your standpoint Sharp, I also think this is more relevant to powercreep times. Infact, when the content is more difficult and it forces people to put effort into their playstyle, dodge red, build themselves more carefully in order to be 100% useful (in dps/tanking/healing/controlling) - the good players shine, and obviously not only in the paingiver chart if you know how to value other people and how they play. The logic of "I'm gonna do everything in a weasel fashion just to make sure nobody else hits anything" pretty much applies simply because the damage output the playerbase is capable of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the content we actually have. Everyone's overgearing the content by 10 times as much and these cases appear. You didn't see much of that when things were a tad more difficult. The ones who knew what they're doing simply shined in everyyyyy aspect (like CC. RIP cc).

kangkeok

Some ppl play for the numbers. Some just play for the challenge and play style. I used to play for numbers during mod 4 totally relying on gear to top the paingiver. In along run, it became too stressful and bored at the same time. I began to forsake my gear and totally rely on what available powers and encounter to survive. It is actually more enjoyable and bring in more satisfaction than the previous.

High DPS only makes things faster but whats is most challenging is, are u able to endure and survive the long boss battle with just low dps and defence? This is the thing that most player in this game did not see.

kolatmaster

@thefabricant

blinxon

A good dps player allways say "Thx to you mates. Thx for all your buffs/debuffs" when i was with him in a grp with my MoF.
A good player gives a HAMSTER about paingiver.

ironzerg79

@tornnomar Ahem...for the record, the "zerg" build...I assume you're referring to my Death is the Best CC build, was built specifically to be a team player build, bringing in tons of buffs from the Renegade tree. Prior to me demonstrating that the Renegade tree was a viable path, max DPS Thaumaturge builds were all the rage.

For the longest time however, DisBCC builds also had a really high damage output, as well...do you know what? Proper utilization of buffs.

So I actually take pride in knowing that (whether players truly understood it or not), when they were running DitBCC builds, they were running builds balanced around (in my opinion) the perfect combination of damage, CC, AND buffs purely for group play. Maximizing my DPS was never the intent of the build. Maximizing my DPS while maximizing the amount of CC and buffs a CW could bring to the group, that was the goal.

Now some things have changed, and you can definitely make the case for other builds, particularly full on MoF-buff builds, which go all in on the buffing, but don't necessarily provide the best balance for all group scenarios. In highly geared, high damage groups, MoF-buff builds are amazing. In your average group or even PuG, they're terrible, since all they do is amplify. If you amplify amazing you get incredible. But mediocre amplified is still bad.

Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread. I agree 100% with everything @thefabricant has said, which is why I've never been an advocate of using the Paingiver totals as a way to measure a players effectiveness.

asterotg

You can have 3 ppl in your party, who rule paingiver charts on their own and the run will take twice the amount of time, bc your party leader skipped the debuff DC and the ITF GF.

I could slap some of my friends in their faces for the BS they build. I have a 4k HV rene CW (3.8 or something with HV), who I cant play, bc everyone and his mom plays DDs and I have to run with my HP DC or my ITF GF. One of my friends started playing a traum op CW build and did more dmg then the others, so now the other put their HV sets in storage and go for the same ego noob epeen build, wondering, why our runs take longer and longer.

While everyone who did some runs with decent players or some testing knows, that buff/ debuffs rule, many players seem to be so small minded, that buffs and debuffs are just fine, as long as the others provide them, to boost their personal dps.

A friend of mine invited me to his EDemo group, when I filled the last spot. Bc of private que we entered right away. A few seconds later I asked, 'are you stupid, where is the tank'? He said 'I thought we dont need a tank, we have high dps'. A few minutes later I asked 'you must be kidding me, there is not one DC in our group'. He said, 'yea, but we have an OP heal'. We failed. This guy plays since beta, we did CN farmruns together, back then. Many ppl just profit from buff/ debuff mechanics, without any understanding of it. You can post them a detailed calculation of the effect of buffs and debuffs, they will say 'yeah right', but they will still go for highest personal dps.

ironzerg79

asterotg said:

Many ppl just profit from buff/ debuff mechanics, without any understanding of it.

This 100%. If I was to redesign tthe Paingiver chart, I would add credit damage contributed by buffs and debuffs.

If someone is hitting for 20% more damage because of your buff, then you should get credit for that 20% extra damage.

Now that would be something to see, wouldn't it.

instynctive

Paingiver also doesn't lay out how much pain and suffering the bad guys endured before their violent death ripped the life from their bodies. It doesn't tell you that they woke up this morning, not realizing that today would be the day they were going to die.

Paingiver doesn't tell you what their families have to now endure... the loss of a parent, a spouse. The kids grow up, hating adventurers and of course spring to action against what they perceive to be the evils that ripped apart their families, their childhoods.


Just another perspective. :-D

sax1993

ironzerg79 said:

asterotg said:

Many ppl just profit from buff/ debuff mechanics, without any understanding of it.

This 100%. If I was to redesign tthe Paingiver chart, I would add credit damage contributed by buffs and debuffs.

If someone is hitting for 20% more damage because of your buff, then you should get credit for that 20% extra damage.

Now that would be something to see, wouldn't it.

Every one would roll GFs CWs and DCs. Then we'd have no true DPS. And then the arguments would be: "I BUFF BETTER THAN YOU!" "NO, I BUFF BETTER THAN YOU".

actually that sounds awesome.