DEFENDERS COMPANIONS should get remove when a gf asks it. are playstyles that you need to get damage

mamalion1234

IN case when gf is tactician need to have active the capstone which recharge ap and for him and for allies. BOOST also my survivability and activate the guard assault for more debuff.
AND in first place i use tab enforced threat and aggregrative why should be here that defender companion?

so when you have defender happens this: boss hit him and me . the hit gone on the companion is lesser ap source for me............................ and when is no cleric in pt lets say vs orcus my daily fighter recovery + assault + some damage from aggregrative will heal me dont mess gf survivability with defenders companions please.

zibadawa

GF kites off with one scorpion in eLoL. Yeti tanks the other one.

It's not that hard for players to deal with the presence of both if they bother to pay attention. Surely they know better than to stand right next to the GF, so why don't they just go "oh, hey, a Yeti is right next to me, maybe I should move". Defender companions are pretty damn obvious, so it's not that hard to plan your positioning. And I also play a high-dps GWF, in which case the GF loses aggro to me anyway on a fairly regular basis. So also pay attention to the paingiver here and there to see if someone's got massive damage, and arrange yourself under the expectation that bosses may turn on them at any moment.

But, yes, depending on the group and how well-built the GF is, defender companions can cause more difficulties than they solve. In that sense it's a shame that they made so many defender companions so very good for (affordable) offensive production. Why the heck does the Yeti even have three offense slots? What sense does that make?

mamalion1234

zibadawa said:

GF kites off with one scorpion in eLoL. Yeti tanks the other one.

It's not that hard for players to deal with the presence of both if they bother to pay attention. Surely they know better than to stand right next to the GF, so why don't they just go "oh, hey, a Yeti is right next to me, maybe I should move". Defender companions are pretty damn obvious, so it's not that hard to plan your positioning. And I also play a high-dps GWF, in which case the GF loses aggro to me anyway on a fairly regular basis. So also pay attention to the paingiver here and there to see if someone's got massive damage, and arrange yourself under the expectation that bosses may turn on them at any moment.

But, yes, depending on the group and how well-built the GF is, defender companions can cause more difficulties than they solve. In that sense it's a shame that they made so many defender companions so very good for (affordable) offensive production. Why the heck does the Yeti even have three offense slots? What sense does that make?

DEFender companion maybe have perma aggro but they cause problems i will give you an example i have seen many many times in elol. LAST boss lostmauth. companion stands to one place when the pt need to move because the stuns from roar and the fires.
i need to move the boss to have his face to other side and here coming the companion to turn the boss and we eat the tail in our face omg. even if the pt doesnt have tank ( IN all cases except orcus) players can manage better the threat and the positioning than any defender companion just because players are smarter.

zibadawa

mamalion1234 said:

DEFender companion maybe have perma aggro but they cause problems i will give you an example i have seen many many times in elol. LAST boss lostmauth. companion stands to one place when the pt need to move because the stuns from roar and the fires.
i need to move the boss to have his face to other side and here coming the companion to turn the boss and we eat the tail in our face omg. even if the pt doesnt have tank ( IN all cases except orcus) players can manage better the threat and the positioning than any defender companion just because players are smarter.

Lostmauth is a rather specific and exceptional fight due to the massive amounts of AoE effects. It's one of the few fights where moving the boss around is (highly) effective, and often times it is a significant improvement for someone to consciously control his facing. Most other bosses you just want to stand in one place, and (epic) companions (and soul puppets) can do that just fine. I've seen good GFs never lose aggro to my yeti against Lostmauth before, and others that almost never have aggro the entire fight (either me or the yeti has it, which sometimes results in my dismissing the Yeti, depending). If your goal is to hold aggro on the boss the whole time, make sure you're built for aggro production. If you're not built to hold aggro, you kind of have yourself to blame first when you fail to hold it.

dsn1118

mamalion1234 said:

IN case when gf is tactician need to have active the capstone which recharge ap and for him and for allies. BOOST also my survivability and activate the guard assault for more debuff.
AND in first place i use tab enforced threat and aggregrative why should be here that defender companion?

so when you have defender happens this: boss hit him and me . the hit gone on the companion is lesser ap source for me............................ and when is no cleric in pt lets say vs orcus my daily fighter recovery + assault + some damage from aggregrative will heal me dont mess gf survivability with defenders companions please.

People are spending insane amount of ADs to make that companions work.Sorry but not all of us have the time get extra 3 bonding rank 12s,6 rank 12 enchantments and companion gear so we can change companions any time because some talentless hack can't play their role.

mamalion1234

zibadawa said:

mamalion1234 said:

DEFender companion maybe have perma aggro but they cause problems i will give you an example i have seen many many times in elol. LAST boss lostmauth. companion stands to one place when the pt need to move because the stuns from roar and the fires.
i need to move the boss to have his face to other side and here coming the companion to turn the boss and we eat the tail in our face omg. even if the pt doesnt have tank ( IN all cases except orcus) players can manage better the threat and the positioning than any defender companion just because players are smarter.

Lostmauth is a rather specific and exceptional fight due to the massive amounts of AoE effects. It's one of the few fights where moving the boss around is (highly) effective, and often times it is a significant improvement for someone to consciously control his facing. Most other bosses you just want to stand in one place, and (epic) companions (and soul puppets) can do that just fine. I've seen good GFs never lose aggro to my yeti against Lostmauth before, and others that almost never have aggro the entire fight (either me or the yeti has it, which sometimes results in my dismissing the Yeti, depending). If your goal is to hold aggro on the boss the whole time, make sure you're built for aggro production. If you're not built to hold aggro, you kind of have yourself to blame first when you fail to hold it.

if you skyrocket with your gwf then i dont think the boss with stay alive enough to harm you. IF i know your damage i know how to manage to keep threat i have played before with so strong damage dealers. something you dont get is also companion has taunt. why i am forced to know companion rotation which is not even a player come on.

bitt3rnightmar3

Everyone has to learn or adapt somehow-- usually as people we learn through failure- trial and error. DPS can trial and error without dying.. switch out their rotation or try to max buffs before casting big skills-- Tanks really don't have an option not to take damage or get punched in the face risking death to learn if something works or not or to get better with skill or rotation. I play a support role primarily and I have an epic Yeti ready because sometimes Tanks need that kind of support when they aren't quite strong enough or used to what they are doing. I don't bring it out unless the tank agrees and even then I won't bring out an aggro pet unless the tank can't survive orcus hits or needs help at scorpions. Aggro pets can pull the mobs or bosses in a way that isn't helpful-- anyone can see that.

While it's a fair expectation to have a party that can play their role, why shouldn't we also prefer party members that can be real understanding people? It's a game-- No one is born perfectly playing in a MMORPG. It's up to people to be able to learn to adapt- which is why we're not all still bashing each other with rocks on the head like primates and we're on the internet with limitless information at our fingertips. If you have a tank companion and only a tank companion kitted out for bonding runestones then you probably wouldn't unsummon it even if you had the best tank ever in the game because 1. you wouldn't be able to tell because aggro would not be managed effectively and 2. you'd be losing your CG stats..

Also- What person actually doesn't just unslot their bondings if they need to change companions? 6-12 gold at least sounds significantly cheaper than hyperbolic R12s.

wildfirede

i always dismiss mine with my alts if we have a tank. That said if in the orcus run the tank is a pvp dps gf i won't mind a purple yeti staying alive when he gets oneshooted.

lantern22

dsn1118 said:

mamalion1234 said:

IN case when gf is tactician need to have active the capstone which recharge ap and for him and for allies. BOOST also my survivability and activate the guard assault for more debuff.
AND in first place i use tab enforced threat and aggregrative why should be here that defender companion?

so when you have defender happens this: boss hit him and me . the hit gone on the companion is lesser ap source for me............................ and when is no cleric in pt lets say vs orcus my daily fighter recovery + assault + some damage from aggregrative will heal me dont mess gf survivability with defenders companions please.

People are spending insane amount of ADs to make that companions work.Sorry but not all of us have the time get extra 3 bonding rank 12s,6 rank 12 enchantments and companion gear so we can change companions any time because some talentless hack can't play their role.

Because Talent is loading up a "Easy Mode" tank pet with R12's and then standing on the other side of the Boss and mashing buttons until it is dead. lol

klangeddin

Yeah, good luck with that. I'm having trouble explaining GWFs they really shouldn't use Daring Shout when fighting a single target boss alongside a GF. If people can't switch a damn power, do you think they'll accept to switch the companion they oh invested so much in?
As this thread can highlight, you are told to suck it up.
My way to get around it so far, is to threaten to quit left and right if that yeti (yeah usually it's a yeti, but the dog or the mercenary are pretty common as well) doesn't GTFO pronto. Sometimes it works =D. If it doesn't I quit and leave them in the dust (defender companions don't really save the day in dungeon bosses.), I've done dungeons over and over, so one less won't make any difference for me.
Now imagine, on the other way around, if tanks took out a super dps pet that somehow reduced other player's dps by 50-75% (this is what tanking companions do to our tanking, pretty much). Can you imagine the outcry? That's something I'd love to see.

zibadawa

klangeddin said:

Now imagine, on the other way around, if tanks took out a super dps pet that somehow reduced other player's dps by 50-75% (this is what tanking companions do to our tanking, pretty much). Can you imagine the outcry? That's something I'd love to see.

Uh...that is exactly what a Yeti with bonding runestones does, and tanks wanting to take them out is exactly the topic of the thread.

lantern22

zibadawa said:

klangeddin said:

Now imagine, on the other way around, if tanks took out a super dps pet that somehow reduced other player's dps by 50-75% (this is what tanking companions do to our tanking, pretty much). Can you imagine the outcry? That's something I'd love to see.

Uh...that is exactly what a Yeti with bonding runestones does, and tanks wanting to take them out is exactly the topic of the thread.

You must use a different definition of the word "exactly" than what I do.

@klangeddin I wholly agree, the crying that would happen if we could bring out a companion and then make the DPSer's obsolete . . . . . really what would be more akin to what the Yeti's etc do to us Tanks is a companion that stopped them from being able to do damage or "DPS" in dungeons at all, a companion that could rush ahead and one shot all the mobs and take all their damage away . . . . . .the forums would crash under the mass of hysteria.

I wonder how much sucking it up would happen then?

wildfirede

Upgrading a Yeti for pve bonding proccer is suboptimal if you are running endgame with a tank. It is actually suboptimal for your personal dps too (cough can't die from aoe to refresh bonding stones). I am amused how many players upgraded one after the solo orcus video btw.

zibadawa

wildfirede said:

Upgrading a Yeti for pve bonding proccer is suboptimal if you are running endgame with a tank. It is actually suboptimal for your personal dps too (cough can't die from aoe to refresh bonding stones). I am amused how many players upgraded one after the solo orcus video btw.

Orcus has a single target swipe he uses all the time, which will one-shot the yeti no problem even if it's legendary. And a Yeti is orders of magnitude cheaper than some actually closer to optimal, like a lightfoot thief.

eion311

Defender companions have always been a pain in the butt for a tank since the game went live. Not because they take over tanking totally (well now a days with how they are buffed I'm sure some do in some cases) but because they take aggro for a sec here and there which obviously turns bosses. It also doesn't help dps classes now a days put out massive damage compared to what they use to yet the devs have never increased the threat of tanking abilities to help tanks out. It would be nice it they would code companions like most other MMO's and allow the players to turn off certain companion abilities. I'm sure it's coming though, look for it in 2020 :P

jumpingmorks

I don't have a problem with folks running tank pets, last time I pugged elol 2 players were running them and both got swatted when scorpion turned around to take a chunk out of their pets. KV isn't going to help stupid.

mamalion1234

eion311 said:

Defender companions have always been a pain in the butt for a tank since the game went live. Not because they take over tanking totally (well now a days with how they are buffed I'm sure some do in some cases) but because they take aggro for a sec here and there which obviously turns bosses. It also doesn't help dps classes now a days put out massive damage compared to what they use to yet the devs have never increased the threat of tanking abilities to help tanks out. It would be nice it they would code companions like most other MMO's and allow the players to turn off certain companion abilities. I'm sure it's coming though, look for it in 2020 :P

I agree WHEN a gf is in pt or a paladin the companion should have an option disable taunt ability. iF GF OR OP dies for any reason then player could turn it on.

klangeddin

That's a pointless suggestion. If it's an option to disable and right now players are refusing to remove the pet, why would they comply and disable the taunt? (the only reason they keep the defender pet in the first place)
They're just gonna pout and not do it anyway, like they don't dimiss the pet right now.
This has to be IMPOSED AUTOMATICALLY or you may as well do nothing. If you meet the 1 of 200 player that actually listens he's gonna dismiss the pet anyway.

wildfirede

i know, and it is usefull in a party without a tank too or soloing , but i would think that for example a blink dog (yetilike price) would be a better endgame companion or a sellsword (and spending millions of AD on a pet it is given that the player is endgaming).

Edit: Still it should be common courtesy to remove a defender when the tank asks for that, likewise i am not spamming my "push mobs away so ppl can't aoe" skill when in a party.

snotty

the problem here is you're thinking about it in a totally egocentric way and forgetting about all the other crappy GFs who talk a good game the rest of us have to run with. Sure, maybe you are a great tank that can actually do what you are there to do. But I don't know that and personally hate dying just because some tool has it built up in his head that "im the tank so im supposed to lead the team and everyone should do what I say".

Yes, If I've done a few runs with you and knew how good you are, I will gladly listen and do what you ask. However, if I don't know you, why should I be expected to do what you ask? I've done it before with other tanks only to die. Hell, just today I had a GF that insisted on battling my yeti for control of the other scorp for no reason what so ever. We all started running for the right scorp so I attacked the left scorp to let my yeti keep it busy while the team focused on the right one. Sure enough all the sudden the GF just had to run to the left scorp and try tanking it leaving me (TR) and the GWF to keep dodging the right scorps agro.

Now he had absolutely no reason to do what he did, the scorp my yeti was tanking facing away the rest of us, it posed no danger to us. So in fact what the GF did by trying to fight my yeti for control was actually worse the me having it out in the first place. Since he dragged the right scorp closer to the left scorp meaning we now had to dodge attacks from both scorps instead of just one.

And my point in telling you that is just to show you why most people don't listen to others....and we all have to deal with that problem at some point

dsn1118

wildfirede said:

Upgrading a Yeti for pve bonding proccer is suboptimal if you are running endgame with a tank. It is actually suboptimal for your personal dps too (cough can't die from aoe to refresh bonding stones). I am amused how many players upgraded one after the solo orcus video btw.

We are using yeti because you can never know whether you are getting a tank or DPS specced GF(hell I saw 2 healer paladin with no tank) in a random party.My main is a GF too and I dont mind people using yeti or other defender companion because it is doing my job for me.Also those defender companions sometimes save entire teams HAMSTER in CN.I saw numerous times where everyone dies from Orcus' spheres except 1 DC or CW .At that point,that one defender companion is the reason why that dungeon doesnt fail.

Note:There is a way to not spin Lostmauth or Orcus when someone uses defender companion.All you have to do is to watch around and position yourself where the companion is.But that requires to be not pig-headed,self-righteous jackass.

zibadawa

wildfirede said:

Edit: Still it should be common courtesy to remove a defender when the tank asks for that, likewise i am not spamming my "push mobs away so ppl can't aoe" skill when in a party.

Some 80% of Paladins I've seen use RA as their first attack and during their rotation in every single situation. Doesn't matter if my TR beat them there and just laid down a smoke bomb, BOOM, thanks for wasting my damage and stun by blowing them away.

Really, they need to completely remove the knock-back from RA, as everything else about the skill is highly desirable. They don't move faster with shift, they don't have a passive that buffs their own move speed, etc., so they tend to be the last guy to the party if everyone isn't intentionally standing around to let the OP lumber in first. RA needs to basically be identical to the GF's lunge.

Nevertheless, the vast majority of tanks and healers have no idea how to play their class well in a party. So for the most part I assume these members are unreliable until proven otherwise, and a Yeti+bell tends to perfectly compensate for their failure by giving a tank that doesn't really need to be healed. On average, runs go smoothly and succeed more often this way.

wildfirede

Yea i dunno why, but i see RA used way too often in a party (paladins also have a charge at will that reduces defense, and hits aoe so dunno why not using that besides selfish ap gains reasons) and also dunno why a tanking skill has pushback in the first place....

Anyway i can see your point of view too, having a dps pala or gf wanabe tank that gets oneshooted is a valid reason to get out the yeti but being with people you know that they can do their job - a pet change should be done.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

wildfirede

Sorry i find the pushback of RA unintuitive and broken as a mechanic. I also find it offensive (every push back for that matter) to any melees and aoes. Dunno why you are taking my comment to be elitist pov i don't own a snail nor more than 9k recovery and yet manage to balance out my ap gain without RA by timing my daily corectly as good as i can.

To stay on topic if i am the tank asking for a pet to be removed and getting a no as a answer even thou i did not cause any wipes i would consider leaving the group (let the yeti tank and go where someone needs me as a tank)

greywynd

So, following this logic, all healing companions should be removed if the cleric requests it, all strikers and other damage inflicting companions should be removed if the CWs, SWs, GWFs request it...

wildfirede

greywynd said:

So, following this logic, all healing companions should be removed if the cleric requests it, all strikers and other damage inflicting companions should be removed if the CWs, SWs, GWFs request it...

Can you please explain to me how exactly a healing companion is hindering a cleric ?
or how a striker is hindering a dps ?

It is not like - omg your blink-dog hit the target now i can't dps or
omg your priestess of sune healed the tank, now i can't heal...

while a active defender is actually blocking GF and OP skills by making them not being the target of the boss or/and not recieving damage...


Would you be so kind to list the skill that gets blocked to CW/SW/GWF when a striker companion is attacking their target i am sure all those classes will be more than happy if you do so.

zibadawa

wildfirede said:

Can you please explain to me how exactly a healing companion is hindering a cleric ?
or how a striker is hindering a dps ?

It is not like - omg your blink-dog hit the target now i can't dps or
omg your priestess of sune healed the tank, now i can't heal...

while a active defender is actually blocking GF and OP skills by making them not being the target of the boss or/and not recieving damage...


Would you be so kind to list the skill that gets blocked to CW/SW/GWF when a striker companion is attacking their target i am sure all those classes will be more than happy if you do so.

Bit of devil's advocate here...

Healers get AP from healing. Strikers get AP from damage. Ergo, the more healing/damage the companion does, the less AP the healer/striker gets. And for strikers and healers that actually care about their dailies (ie, non-GWFs) that's relevant. It's also possible for things like blink dogs to screw up the grouping of mobs. A GWF with a blink dog, say, tosses out daggers, the dog warps behind one of the fringe ones, and now that guy wants to fight the dog where it is while everything else rushes together and away from him to get the GWF. I usually don't see healer companions getting aggro in dungeons, but I've seen strikers and defenders do it.

magenubbie said:

Perhaps you should just let the tank go first? That's why he's the tank isn't he? It's not that he can change RA for something else while in combat.

Because why do I want to sit around waiting for Mr. Slowpants to get in on the action when I can waltz in with ITC up and plop a stealth smoke bomb down that completely neutralizes everything for 4+ seconds, deals plenty of damage, and attracts them all towards a central point (me) for everyone to get more AoE damage done?

RA's knock is only relevant when the OP's already well ahead of everyone else, which means he's either ditching the party before the previous fight is over and putting them at risk or isn't actually a tank. Otherwise its complete and entire use is to taunt things, maybe give him a short buff like the GF's lunge, and to let him play catch up with the much more mobile strikers that'll be up for AoE hits about the same time RA lands. Which means the knockback is completely and utterly counterproductive. As the other poster said, knockback is almost always a bad, counterproductive thing in group play and should not be used unless you see you're in a weak group and you can't hold the aggro of literally everything the entire time, and so need to put distance between the mobs and the weaklings regularly. That OPs were overnerfed into being largely irrelevant for group play without very high end gear isn't the problem of your group; that's yours and Cryptic's to deal with. Don't try to pass the buck and make your nerfed character into a nerfed team.

RA either needs its knockback completely removed, or Paladins need a massive movement speed buff for themselves with minimal opportunity cost so that they can actually land the RA before it screws up what the rest of the party is doing.

dsn1118

wildfirede said:

greywynd said:

So, following this logic, all healing companions should be removed if the cleric requests it, all strikers and other damage inflicting companions should be removed if the CWs, SWs, GWFs request it...

Can you please explain to me how exactly a healing companion is hindering a cleric ?
or how a striker is hindering a dps ?

It is not like - omg your blink-dog hit the target now i can't dps or
omg your priestess of sune healed the tank, now i can't heal...

while a active defender is actually blocking GF and OP skills by making them not being the target of the boss or/and not recieving damage...


Would you be so kind to list the skill that gets blocked to CW/SW/GWF when a striker companion is attacking their target i am sure all those classes will be more than happy if you do so.

I can ask this.Why does a tank need AP gain (so bad that you risk getting smashed by Orcus) in a proper group format with a healer/buffer cleric/paladin around.I am really curious because I dont even use my GF's dailies(except Villain's Menace maybe) in bossfights unless our cleric is inept or newbie

jase2cool

Its difficult to ask someone to change their play style to suit someone else .. Even it the option is available

Everyone has a set own routine which they work on/perfected .

As a tank i would improvise the situation and make it to my advantage.

I'm an OP tank and I bring my own yeti.
the concept is simple monster hits the monkey is better than hits me or team mates .

My opinion on this..is the defender tank can act as another layer of defense ...which its can be use to help the tank to absorb damage and taking threat off the tank and every other party member

Loosing threat change facing of the boss.
Unless party members decide to stand next to the pet/tank
the tank and party members can always move around , move behind or besides where the monster cant reach you.

Normally i will stand on 3'o clock and my yeti is default goes in straight in will be at 6' o clock i'm there to tank in case i lose aggro its better the yeti takes over at 6'o clock then some crazy gwf dps takes it at 12'o clock .

So far it has been working fine.

zibadawa

dsn1118 said:

I can ask this.Why does a tank need AP gain (so bad that you risk getting smashed by Orcus) in a proper group format with a healer/buffer cleric/paladin around.I am really curious because I dont even use my GF's dailies(except Villain's Menace maybe) in bossfights unless our cleric is inept or newbie

Steel Defense passive? Crescendo feat debuff?