plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,404Arc User
Influence actually is not the number one bottle neck in our guild. I would not say it is easy but relatively easier than some others. If the most guild members has the will power to coordinate to do so, that can be done fast. You need more toons. Each toon has the 400 limit + bonus. The toon needs to hit something a few times in the HE to get the influence. The toon does not need to be strong at all. If the guild members arrange some HE group (say 2 to 10 members), they can cycle at least 3 toons in an hour (and they don't need to care about waiting for the small HE to pop, they can do the medium and big one). I personally solo those HE with 3 toons everyday. i.e. 400 x 3 = 1200 influence. If I do the bonus (I usually do but the bonus quest reset time is bad), it will be 1500.
Again, I am not saying this is easy and I am not saying this is fun. However, when influence is the only bottle neck (usually it is not), our guild can fulfill that fast enough. When certain things need to be done, our guild just band together and do it.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,150Arc User
This train of thought actually brings out another flaw: Why be in a guild together if you aren't ever going to do stuff together? The "balance" you're referring to leads to guilds being composed of coalitions of people with wildly divergent interests in the game whose only mutual activity is advancing the stronghold itself.
That's a fundamental problem with the way they designed the stronghold advancement system: They designed it to require a lot of grind, and they designed it so that every "adventuring zone" and every activity in the game would eventually be required to advance.
From the developers' perspective, the idea must be that they offer a massive new grind and just reuse all their existing content and also try to conceal the repetitive nature of it by hiding it behind the "variation" offered by zones with different colors.
However, from a player's perspective, it is not necessarily the case that having to cycle through all their content and zones is an ideal way to play. In particular, redoing the same Heroic Encounters every day, on multiple characters for many players, is a major disincentive to play at all. Thus, they should probably go beyond just offering multiple ways of achieving Influence and probably look into further improving the amount of Influence you can gain by playing in other ways.
Honestly, I think they should probably fundamentally redesign stronghold advancement by not just giving more options for farming Influence, but also removing the four zone-specific currencies (dark gifts, fey, etc.) and replacing them with boxes of food/stone/wood/metal that can drop from those zones or anywhere else in the game, and increasing the requirements of those instead. Like, the daily and weekly quests in each zone would drop some random amounts, you could buy them for glory, etc. All the shards should be consolidated into a single type -- call them shards of power or w/e. Glory could be used to buy vouchers for food/stone/wood/metal, and maybe be useful for advancing PvP-only structures.
Is it a flaw? Are guilds meant to be strictly PvP or PvE oriented? I don't believe so, which is why the strongholds need stuff, as you pointed out, from every adventuring zone.
There is someone in my guild that every time the conversation comes up replies "strongholds are for PvP". No. Strongholds and guilds are for players, both the PvP variety and the PvE-rs.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
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grogthemagnifMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,651Arc User
I mentioned this in another thread and want to reiterate it here.
2 suggestions to improve quality of life for PVE and PVP players:
(1) More ways to earn the daily limit of 400 influence (currently only from Stronghold HEs).
(1a) Consider PVP wins in Domination, GG, and siege the same as completing an HE in the stronghold. i.e. give up to 400 influence a day from this, but not in addition to the 400 influence gained from HEs. Just as another option. 5 wins in any of these 3 pvp formats provides 400 influence per day, in the same way that HEs currently do (150, 120, etc). I'd also suggest doubling the AD reward, but give no AD on a loss.
(1b) Consider T2 dungeon clears the same as completing an HE in stronghold. i.e. give up to 400 influence a day from this, but not in addition to the 400 influence gained from HEs. Just as another option. 5 t2 dungeon clears provides 400 influence per day, in the same way that HEs currently do (150, 120, etc).
Example: 1 domination win, 2 t2 dungeon clears, and 3 heroic encounters would reach the 400 influence daily cap currently associated with heroic encounters.
(2) Remove and replace glory and conquerer shards from stronghold building requirements. Then, add a glory vendor that allows players to exchange glory earned in pvp for vouchers that they can donate to their stronghold coffer.
This removes the obligatory pvp requirement put on PVE players in order to build their barracks, and simultaneously removes the obligatory pve requirement put on PVP players in order to build their stronghold.
We have in our Guild, the Wizard's Workshop which gave a Tier 1 (Rank1) quest to provide the Wizard with 10 Superior healing potions for 20 Influence Daily. Tier 2 (Rank 3) gives 35 Influence for 10 Thayan Tomes from the Dread Ring, on Preview the Guild I'M in gives Tier 4 rewards of 100 Influence daily from the Mercenary's Outpost..
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grogthemagnifMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,651Arc User
We've had over 20 members generating influence (9000+ points) and can easily do 4000+ points with 2 groups of 5 doing Tier3 HEs (plus Heroic shards and Purple player and Companion Accessories)
greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,150Arc User
I agree. Nothing in the stronghold should be gated behind PvP except what is used for PvP. The same with PvE.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
Reality Check: PvP without AD or with only rewards for winners would end up like the foundry...
A guild with 150 members can farm 60k from Heroics. Depending on Boon Buildings you can almost double this amount. Furthermore, you can just use alt characters to boost this even more.
No need for more. An increase would only further the botting issues in Strongholds.
Creating a pool for Influence and giving out rewards from that pool via different Heroics or even PvP matches would straight away trivialize the stronghold. Heroics in other zones have their own rewards and adding Influence on top would just make these preferable without reason.
Alliances gives guilds a way to gain large amounts of the Conquerer Shards and Glory without doing any PvP, while PvP guilds can get the PvE currencies that are so elusive for them aswell.
In terms of game design I find it more interesting giving players the option to trade, rather than this suggestion.
All of this would just lead to one way being the most preferable and easiest way and people would find themselves doing one thing over and over, taking away the tiny bit of variation that SH Grind has left would increase suicide rates.
Some people mentioned things are "gated" improperly. PvP Structures require PvP Currencies across the board.
The only point of discussion are the Barracks. It requires currency aviable via PvP and PvE and it is also used in PvP and PvE, Power is the probably most universal boon for all guilds. People seem to forget that boons are... boons, it is extra. If you want it you'll have to work for it and an incentive for people to play some PvP, should be welcome by every person who already plays PvP.
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
Reality Check: PvP without AD or with only rewards for winners would end up like the foundry...
Agree to disagree on this. People PVP for fun, not for rewards. Some people feel forced or required to pvp for glory or conq shards, and this shouldn't be the case -- but they aren't the majority of pvpers.
Creating a pool for Influence and giving out rewards from that pool via different Heroics or even PvP matches would straight away trivialize the stronghold. Heroics in other zones have their own rewards and adding Influence on top would just make these preferable without reason.
Can you clarify this statement? I'm not sure how adding more options to earn the same 400 influence trivializes the stronghold. If this were true, it'd effectively mean the only purpose behind the stronghold is the ability to gain influence from within the instance. The stronghold has tons of quests, ways to earn influence, tending requirements, sieges, dragonflights, guildies, etc. Making it the only way to farm the 400 influence is not its sole reason for existence, nor would removing this criteria trivialize it.
All of this would just lead to one way being the most preferable and easiest way and people would find themselves doing one thing over and over, taking away the tiny bit of variation that SH Grind has left would increase suicide rates.<
Why is it bad for people to have more ways to earn the same 400 influence, in roughly the same time? Also, where did anyone suggest 'taking away the tiny bit of variation that SH Grind has'? This is about adding options, not removing them.
This thread is full of surprises to me. People seem to want to (1) do mindless no-fun activities every day for hours and (2) force/require everyone else to do them as well. It's no wonder the game keeps losing players. The suggestions in this thread are a win-win-win. Except for those that benefit from the current system.
Who benefits from the current system? (1) high ranked guilds who don't want others to catch up, (2) people who have managed to profit off of it.
Alliances gives guilds a way to gain large amounts of the Conquerer Shards and Glory without doing any PvP, while PvP guilds can get the PvE currencies that are so elusive for them aswell.
In theory, alliances should help. I doubt they will solve the issue, since every guild needs influence and influence is only obtainable through (effectively) 1 method. Plus, I don't think alliances should be forced to be a blend of PVP and PVE players.
Some people mentioned things are "gated" improperly. PvP Structures require PvP Currencies across the board.
The only point of discussion are the Barracks. It requires currency aviable via PvP and PvE and it is also used in PvP and PvE, Power is the probably most universal boon for all guilds. People seem to forget that boons are... boons, it is extra. If you want it you'll have to work for it and an incentive for people to play some PvP, should be welcome by every person who already plays PvP.
Every single structure, PVE or PVP, requires PVE currencies. Thus, every stronghold structure is gated behind PVE. That's why one of the suggestions in the original post was to add a glory-to-voucher exchange so that pvp players could do what they enjoy -- pvp -- and rank up their respective strongholds by winning. The vendor would have to be fair, of course, and not produce stronghold currencies at a faster rate than the pve equivalent.
The #1 complaint from the pvp players that I've seen leave in the past 9 months has been strongholds related. The game has bugs and imbalance, but that has always existed in some form. Forcing pvp-players to spend their limited game-time doing PVE grind on multiple toons.. every day ... that's proven to be game-over for too many.
Post edited by josiahiyon on
Iyon the Dark
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vinceent1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,264Arc User
edited May 2016
josiahyon -
people do pvp for fun? of course but its no longer thing in this game. no matter how hard certain individuals trying to convince themselves that they have fun at pvp, its hardly the case. number of players is almost zero and imbalances mainly between premades and pugs is crazy. nobody can have fun in this envoroment, some people just dont see clearly anymore and they should try another game. it should rapidly change their opinions...
dont wanna be extra offensive but some premades really should wake up already and finally oversee whole thing, there is zero thrill in nwo pvp remaining, easy win easy loss 99,99% of time
let me tell you a secret, many people dont go pvp for AD only, they are trying to get good fight the same as you. but can you seriously blame them they dont even slot pvp armor or starting afk when they see its not gonna happening in that match, or even many matches in a row...
my approach is i dont even change my setup when entering pvp (armor, potions, mount power) anymore, because its absurd doing it and after 30 secs changing it back. Only when i am bothering to do it, is when i see the match can be somehow equall. so pvp complaining that there are pveers going only for AD is not the case they are trying to argue
Post edited by vinceent1 on
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
people do pvp for fun? of course but its no longer thing in this game. no matter how hard certain individuals trying to convince themselves that they have fun at pvp, its hardly the case. number of players is almost zero and imbalances mainly between premades and pugs is crazy. nobody can have fun in this envoroment, some people just dont see clearly anymore and they should try another game. it should rapidly change their opinions...
Agreed that there is imbalance, both in terms of gear and classes, in this game. This has always existed, and certainly is a limiting factor. My background is in pvp games with equalized gear, so definitely understand the issue you're referencing. What to do about this is tricky, since the pvp community is so small right now. Item level based q-ing, despite its obvious flaws, fundamentally doesn't work when only 20 people are pvping at any time. The suggestions above help increase the # in q in 2 ways: (1) bring retired pvp players back, (2) allow existing pvp players the time to actually pvp rather than farm pve all their play hours.
The people I know that pvp do so for those moments, those good matches, that this game has and still does offer. The suggestions I'm making are meant to keep these people playing, and get back some that left.
I play this game for the good 5v5 organized (in advance) balanced pvp matches with same team compositions. I never solo-q, as communication and team-preperation is what I enjoy most about a good match. Some of your comments above suggest I should just stop playing the game, which while ultimately may be true, I'd rather suggest small improvements to remedy the issue.
so pvp complaining that there are pveers going only for AD is not the case they are trying to argue
Nor is that the case I am arguing. In fact, the current AD rewards are so small that they are an after-thought. But if pvp rewards are going to be increased (influence, etc), the criteria to get them should go up -- we don't need bots farming pvp.
Iyon the Dark
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vinceent1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,264Arc User
edited May 2016
ok, sad thing is almost anything what cryptic should do can be huge step for the better. atm we have only dev question what new mode we want. i hope they are not so ignorrant so they only bring new mode from time to time and thats it (thats what they do with sieges) . you will never know
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jaysun1977Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 177Arc User
Just remove conqueror shards from the game and AD from PvP and watch PvP slowly dwindle away to catch up with its irrelevance in NWO. It would solve so many problems.
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
Great idea, being able to choose what you want to do and earn the same rewards instead of being forced to do exactly the same thing everyday would make my gaming life more enjoyable for sure!
As someone in a VERY small guild, I agree, there needs to be a change. We have players that REFUSE to do PVP, and for the most part, the majority DOESN'T want to do it (myself included, as it's not something I enjoy). However, we've been stuck on the Archer's Tower for months, since only about three people do PVP on a regular basis.
Sure, we could all join another guild, but this one was started by a group of friends WAY before Strongholds came into play, and the originator of the guild, has passed away, and it's our way of keeping his memory alive.
Why COULDN'T there be a way to avoid PVP (or PVE for those that hate that) and still be able to build the stronghold up? As far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out on the upcoming guild alignments. After all, there isn't one other area of this game that REQUIRES you to play PVP.
Influence is NOT the #1 bottleneck. Not even close. Surplus Equipment is consistently the most difficult resource to fill up followed by Conqueror shards for guild that don't commonly PvP.
So... if the idea was anything other than allowing those items as extra options with the max per day remaining 400 - I would have a huge objection. But keeping the max at 400 and simply extending it to other content in the game... that makes sense, and it even fits a bit with the idea of "Influence" anyway.
On the topic of easing SH resource collection for those resources that are hard to come by -- how about adding a SH-only Domination area like there is in IWD. Then, guilds can do a DOM all in good fun without all the anonymous 4k pre-made noob stomping that happens in DOM now that the rest of us find oh-so-fun. After all - if you only get shards when you win and you only win once every 5 tries if you're lucky, the other 4 times spent being killing over and over without any chance at victory.. that's pretty much the worst player experience you can come up with. Sure, you can do BID as long as there aren't any 4K trolls but the point is - if they make it easier for PvP-oriented guilds to earn influence, they should also make it easier for PvE-oriented guilds to earn conq shards.
I meant to add: removing conq shards and requiring glory isn't really a full solution since it still requires PvE players spend hours getting humiliated in some of the most un-fun ways.... only providing a way for pve-orieinted players to that simply cannot compete against the big tough guys in PvP guilds will suffice. PvP as a notion is ok - fine to require some form of PvP to earn the conq shards and glory - but there needs to be some mechanism by which a group of 2.4k pve-geared players (for example) can earn those currencies without spending hours dying over and over without much chance of success.
Interesting. I hadn't heard anyone complain about surplus equipment as a bottleneck. Especially with the change to quartermasters and the new event blue vouchers.
The intent of part 1 of this suggestion is to "[keep] the max at 400 and simply [extend] it to other content in the game". I'm glad this makes sense. Given some of the comments here, I was worried this wasn't making sense to some.
Part 2 of my proposal is NOT to "[remove] conq shards and [require] glory", so I agree that this is not a good solution. To quote the original post:
"(2) Remove and replace glory and conquerer shards from stronghold building requirements. Then, add a glory vendor that allows players to exchange glory earned in pvp for vouchers that they can donate to their stronghold coffer. "
Remove conquer shards AND remove glory from stronghold building requirements, and replace them with some other pre-existing resource. Adding a glory vendor wouldn't require glory, but rather give pvp players a way to upgrade their stronghold without having to do pve. I agree that the glory::voucher trade would have to be fair and similar to what can be gained by PVE in a similar amount of time. In no way should adding this vendor make players feel obligated to PVP, since the intent is to mitigate this type of undesired obligatory play.
Making PVP more enjoyable (less brutal?) for lower geared PVE players is important, but also a separate topic. In this thread, I'm just proposing alternative ways for players to upgrade their stronghold (not necessarily faster, just more options).
I mentioned this in another thread and want to reiterate it here.
2 suggestions to improve quality of life for PVE and PVP players:
(1) More ways to earn the daily limit of 400 influence (currently only from Stronghold HEs).
(1a) Consider PVP wins in Domination, GG, and siege the same as completing an HE in the stronghold. i.e. give up to 400 influence a day from this, but not in addition to the 400 influence gained from HEs. Just as another option. 5 wins in any of these 3 pvp formats provides 400 influence per day, in the same way that HEs currently do (150, 120, etc). I'd also suggest doubling the AD reward, but give no AD on a loss.
(1b) Consider T2 dungeon clears the same as completing an HE in stronghold. i.e. give up to 400 influence a day from this, but not in addition to the 400 influence gained from HEs. Just as another option. 5 t2 dungeon clears provides 400 influence per day, in the same way that HEs currently do (150, 120, etc).
Example: 1 domination win, 2 t2 dungeon clears, and 3 heroic encounters would reach the 400 influence daily cap currently associated with heroic encounters.
(2) Remove and replace glory and conquerer shards from stronghold building requirements. Then, add a glory vendor that allows players to exchange glory earned in pvp for vouchers that they can donate to their stronghold coffer.
This removes the obligatory pvp requirement put on PVE players in order to build their barracks, and simultaneously removes the obligatory pve requirement put on PVP players in order to build their stronghold.
++++ This is a great alternative to getting influence. It killed my desire to play when I felt like it was a job to log in and do influence each day rather than log in and HAVE FUN....
There needs to be FUN ways of getting things needed for the SH. Like PVP or even dungeons!
hahahahah. let me guess, you are one of pvp guilds members and you want more reward for your easy win and zero reward for several attempts of non pvp member make, when they play a domination. obviously not gonna happening .... you should be ashamed for suggesting something like this
Yeah. Our hearts are always broken for pvp-only players when they Have to go to pve for finishing campaigns or contributing SH. They act like they are going for a tooth removal.
They shouldn't worry beacause with alliance system they can do business with alliance members to exchange conq shard/glory for influ or things like that. So they can finally go back to steamrolling rookies with premades.
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
hahahahah. let me guess, you are one of pvp guilds members and you want more reward for your easy win and zero reward for several attempts of non pvp member make, when they play a domination. obviously not gonna happening .... you should be ashamed for suggesting something like this
Yeah. Our hearts are always broken for pvp-only players when they Have to go to pve for finishing campaigns or contributing SH. They act like they are going for a tooth removal.
They shouldn't worry beacause with alliance system they can do business with alliance members to exchange conq shard/glory for influ or things like that. So they can finally go back to steamrolling rookies with premades.
Yes, the alliance system should help. Please keep this thread focused on the intent: quality of life improvements for PVE and PVP players. Sarcastically dismissing complaints of a certain playstyle simply because it's not your own playstyle is unnecessary and counter-productive.
Iyon the Dark
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jaysun1977Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 177Arc User
Forcing pvp-players to spend their limited game-time doing PVE grind on multiple toons.. every day ... that's proven to be game-over for too many.
Here's a novel idea then: How about you don't play tagged on PvP in a PvE game and head for an actual PvP game, instead? How about Guild Wars (1 or 2)? How about Rift Online? How about Continent of the 9th Seal? How about Age of Wushu? How about Black Desert Online? How about Dragon Nest? How about Blade and Soul? How about Tera Online?
There are som many good PvP MMOs out there. There is really no reason for you to stick around NWO if you don't enjoy it. PvP can not and will not ever be a mainstay of NWO, so why suffer through it? Why ask for changes that will ultimetaly only ruin both PvP and PvE?
Now, there might be several reasons as to why you might be reluctant to change:
1. Sunk cost fallacy. You invested a lot into the game, not nescessarily money, but certainly time and effort, to get to where you are atm. That will make you naturally reluctant to face the situation that it might all have been for naught. That's just normal. It's also wrong, though. That's why it's called a fallacy. As Kenny Rogers so famously said: "Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em and know when to walk away."
2. Personal sense of power. You might currently do very well in NWO PvP. You might be on the 4K end of the scale and trample most opponents with ease. That is a very intoxicating situation and even while you are actually looking for equally skilled opponents, the allure of the easy win, the domination of others will not leave you untouched. Add to that the fear that you might have to do it all over in a new environment, against other players with vastly more experience in those games and you will be naturally reluctant to relinquish that power. While those fears are not entirely immaterial they are still juust a symptom of growing as a PvPer. New experience allow for growth. They add to your repertoire and make you a more diverse PvPer in general. Shoehorning yourself into a specific MMO will dull your abilities quite fast, as you become complacent and narrow.
3. Personal insufficiencies. Tied very much into the personal sense of power used to compensate for perceived insufficiencies. You may have a low self esteem as a result of that and you might try to compensate for it through a developed sense of personal power. In such a case you will be reluctant to let NWO PvP go, as your self esteem and as a result your self-worth is threateened to cave in, if you lose the source of your sense of power. Worse, you might be under the impression that you could not replicate the same success in another medium, clinging to NWO PvP as a liveline as a result of that. There's not much help to be given in that case other than referring to a therapist or other mental health professional in such a case. NWO PvP won't be the solution to the problem, however, just a bad and temporary fix.
4. Friends you play with. You might have formed a deep friendship with your usual PvP mates. They might even have been personal friends you came into the game with in the first place. Naturally, we are reluctant to abandon our personal relationships and feel such acts as betrayal. But face it: NWO can't really give you a proper PvP challenge. If your friends like PvP as much as you, ask them to join you in a proper PvP MMO. Stress the added challenge and improved balance and matchmaking such a game would bring. Elevate your and your friends enjoyment of PvP to another level in an environment properly suited for it.
Whatever your reason may be, don't stick around NWO, asking for PvP improvements. They will not come. The PvP base is too small for a working matchmaking, the barrier of entry to high, the netcode unable to provide a fluid experience, resulting in packet loss and respective rubberbanding, the damage to Hp scaling too far beyond hope for repair. It's just not going to work out for you in the long run. Stop your suffering now, stop placing bets in a pot far beyond your odds, fold your hand and just walk away.
Cheers.
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
Many of my friends have taken your suggestion and left. The few remaining likely will as well. But it would be silly not to propose simple solutions that are win-win-win for all parties, no matter if they fall on deaf ears.
The suggestions in the original post are quality of life improvements for pve and pvp players. This isn't a 'help pvp' to improve the game thread. It's a couple suggestions that would improve quality of life for everyone.
Please look past my signature, look past my preferred way of enjoying this game, and examine the suggestions on their merit.
Iyon the Dark
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jaysun1977Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 177Arc User
Many of my friends have taken your suggestion and left. The few remaining likely will as well. But it would be silly not to propose simple solutions that are win-win-win for all parties, no matter if they fall on deaf ears.
The suggestions in the original post are quality of life improvements for pve and pvp players. This isn't a 'help pvp' to improve the game thread. It's a couple suggestions that would improve quality of life for everyone.
Please look past my signature, look past my preferred way of enjoying this game, and examine the suggestions on their merit.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with the OP and already have said so in this very thread. I was a proponent for a shard trade-in option in the round table event. I wholeheartedly agree that requirements should be tailored to th actual use of a particular structure. Where I disagree is that there should be PvP solutions for all requirements. NWO is foremost a PvE game and shuld be treated as such by both players and developers.
If you ask me, the biggest help for pure PvP Guilds would be to completely remove Boons and Mount bouses from PvP. It would drastically reduce barrier of entry and relinquish the need for Stronghold structures for PvP guilds at the same time.
Comments
Again, I am not saying this is easy and I am not saying this is fun. However, when influence is the only bottle neck (usually it is not), our guild can fulfill that fast enough. When certain things need to be done, our guild just band together and do it.
There is someone in my guild that every time the conversation comes up replies "strongholds are for PvP". No. Strongholds and guilds are for players, both the PvP variety and the PvE-rs.
A guild with 150 members can farm 60k from Heroics. Depending on Boon Buildings you can almost double this amount. Furthermore, you can just use alt characters to boost this even more.
No need for more. An increase would only further the botting issues in Strongholds.
Creating a pool for Influence and giving out rewards from that pool via different Heroics or even PvP matches would straight away trivialize the stronghold. Heroics in other zones have their own rewards and adding Influence on top would just make these preferable without reason.
Alliances gives guilds a way to gain large amounts of the Conquerer Shards and Glory without doing any PvP, while PvP guilds can get the PvE currencies that are so elusive for them aswell.
In terms of game design I find it more interesting giving players the option to trade, rather than this suggestion.
All of this would just lead to one way being the most preferable and easiest way and people would find themselves doing one thing over and over, taking away the tiny bit of variation that SH Grind has left would increase suicide rates.
Some people mentioned things are "gated" improperly. PvP Structures require PvP Currencies across the board.
The only point of discussion are the Barracks. It requires currency aviable via PvP and PvE and it is also used in PvP and PvE, Power is the probably most universal boon for all guilds. People seem to forget that boons are... boons, it is extra. If you want it you'll have to work for it and an incentive for people to play some PvP, should be welcome by every person who already plays PvP.
This thread is full of surprises to me. People seem to want to (1) do mindless no-fun activities every day for hours and (2) force/require everyone else to do them as well. It's no wonder the game keeps losing players. The suggestions in this thread are a win-win-win. Except for those that benefit from the current system.
Who benefits from the current system? (1) high ranked guilds who don't want others to catch up, (2) people who have managed to profit off of it. In theory, alliances should help. I doubt they will solve the issue, since every guild needs influence and influence is only obtainable through (effectively) 1 method. Plus, I don't think alliances should be forced to be a blend of PVP and PVE players.
Every single structure, PVE or PVP, requires PVE currencies. Thus, every stronghold structure is gated behind PVE. That's why one of the suggestions in the original post was to add a glory-to-voucher exchange so that pvp players could do what they enjoy -- pvp -- and rank up their respective strongholds by winning. The vendor would have to be fair, of course, and not produce stronghold currencies at a faster rate than the pve equivalent.
The #1 complaint from the pvp players that I've seen leave in the past 9 months has been strongholds related. The game has bugs and imbalance, but that has always existed in some form. Forcing pvp-players to spend their limited game-time doing PVE grind on multiple toons.. every day ... that's proven to be game-over for too many.
Iyon the Dark
people do pvp for fun? of course but its no longer thing in this game. no matter how hard certain individuals trying to convince themselves that they have fun at pvp, its hardly the case. number of players is almost zero and imbalances mainly between premades and pugs is crazy. nobody can have fun in this envoroment, some people just dont see clearly anymore and they should try another game. it should rapidly change their opinions...
dont wanna be extra offensive but some premades really should wake up already and finally oversee whole thing, there is zero thrill in nwo pvp remaining, easy win easy loss 99,99% of time
let me tell you a secret, many people dont go pvp for AD only, they are trying to get good fight the same as you. but can you seriously blame them they dont even slot pvp armor or starting afk when they see its not gonna happening in that match, or even many matches in a row...
my approach is i dont even change my setup when entering pvp (armor, potions, mount power) anymore, because its absurd doing it and after 30 secs changing it back. Only when i am bothering to do it, is when i see the match can be somehow equall. so pvp complaining that there are pveers going only for AD is not the case they are trying to argue
The people I know that pvp do so for those moments, those good matches, that this game has and still does offer. The suggestions I'm making are meant to keep these people playing, and get back some that left.
I play this game for the good 5v5 organized (in advance) balanced pvp matches with same team compositions. I never solo-q, as communication and team-preperation is what I enjoy most about a good match. Some of your comments above suggest I should just stop playing the game, which while ultimately may be true, I'd rather suggest small improvements to remedy the issue. Nor is that the case I am arguing. In fact, the current AD rewards are so small that they are an after-thought. But if pvp rewards are going to be increased (influence, etc), the criteria to get them should go up -- we don't need bots farming pvp.
Iyon the Dark
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
Sure, we could all join another guild, but this one was started by a group of friends WAY before Strongholds came into play, and the originator of the guild, has passed away, and it's our way of keeping his memory alive.
Why COULDN'T there be a way to avoid PVP (or PVE for those that hate that) and still be able to build the stronghold up? As far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out on the upcoming guild alignments. After all, there isn't one other area of this game that REQUIRES you to play PVP.
So... if the idea was anything other than allowing those items as extra options with the max per day remaining 400 - I would have a huge objection. But keeping the max at 400 and simply extending it to other content in the game... that makes sense, and it even fits a bit with the idea of "Influence" anyway.
On the topic of easing SH resource collection for those resources that are hard to come by -- how about adding a SH-only Domination area like there is in IWD. Then, guilds can do a DOM all in good fun without all the anonymous 4k pre-made noob stomping that happens in DOM now that the rest of us find oh-so-fun. After all - if you only get shards when you win and you only win once every 5 tries if you're lucky, the other 4 times spent being killing over and over without any chance at victory.. that's pretty much the worst player experience you can come up with. Sure, you can do BID as long as there aren't any 4K trolls but the point is - if they make it easier for PvP-oriented guilds to earn influence, they should also make it easier for PvE-oriented guilds to earn conq shards.
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
thanks for getting my intent! basically allow guilds to upgrade their strongholds by doing the content they enjoy, be it pve or pvp.
@kvet
Interesting. I hadn't heard anyone complain about surplus equipment as a bottleneck. Especially with the change to quartermasters and the new event blue vouchers.
The intent of part 1 of this suggestion is to "[keep] the max at 400 and simply [extend] it to other content in the game". I'm glad this makes sense. Given some of the comments here, I was worried this wasn't making sense to some.
Part 2 of my proposal is NOT to "[remove] conq shards and [require] glory", so I agree that this is not a good solution. To quote the original post:
"(2) Remove and replace glory and conquerer shards from stronghold building requirements. Then, add a glory vendor that allows players to exchange glory earned in pvp for vouchers that they can donate to their stronghold coffer. "
Remove conquer shards AND remove glory from stronghold building requirements, and replace them with some other pre-existing resource. Adding a glory vendor wouldn't require glory, but rather give pvp players a way to upgrade their stronghold without having to do pve. I agree that the glory::voucher trade would have to be fair and similar to what can be gained by PVE in a similar amount of time. In no way should adding this vendor make players feel obligated to PVP, since the intent is to mitigate this type of undesired obligatory play.
Making PVP more enjoyable (less brutal?) for lower geared PVE players is important, but also a separate topic. In this thread, I'm just proposing alternative ways for players to upgrade their stronghold (not necessarily faster, just more options).
Iyon the Dark
There needs to be FUN ways of getting things needed for the SH. Like PVP or even dungeons!
Our hearts are always broken for pvp-only players when they Have to go to pve for finishing campaigns or contributing SH.
They act like they are going for a tooth removal.
They shouldn't worry beacause with alliance system they can do business with alliance members to exchange conq shard/glory for influ or things like that.
So they can finally go back to steamrolling rookies with premades.
Iyon the Dark
There are som many good PvP MMOs out there. There is really no reason for you to stick around NWO if you don't enjoy it. PvP can not and will not ever be a mainstay of NWO, so why suffer through it? Why ask for changes that will ultimetaly only ruin both PvP and PvE?
Now, there might be several reasons as to why you might be reluctant to change:
1. Sunk cost fallacy. You invested a lot into the game, not nescessarily money, but certainly time and effort, to get to where you are atm. That will make you naturally reluctant to face the situation that it might all have been for naught. That's just normal. It's also wrong, though. That's why it's called a fallacy. As Kenny Rogers so famously said: "Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em and know when to walk away."
2. Personal sense of power. You might currently do very well in NWO PvP. You might be on the 4K end of the scale and trample most opponents with ease. That is a very intoxicating situation and even while you are actually looking for equally skilled opponents, the allure of the easy win, the domination of others will not leave you untouched. Add to that the fear that you might have to do it all over in a new environment, against other players with vastly more experience in those games and you will be naturally reluctant to relinquish that power. While those fears are not entirely immaterial they are still juust a symptom of growing as a PvPer. New experience allow for growth. They add to your repertoire and make you a more diverse PvPer in general. Shoehorning yourself into a specific MMO will dull your abilities quite fast, as you become complacent and narrow.
3. Personal insufficiencies. Tied very much into the personal sense of power used to compensate for perceived insufficiencies. You may have a low self esteem as a result of that and you might try to compensate for it through a developed sense of personal power. In such a case you will be reluctant to let NWO PvP go, as your self esteem and as a result your self-worth is threateened to cave in, if you lose the source of your sense of power. Worse, you might be under the impression that you could not replicate the same success in another medium, clinging to NWO PvP as a liveline as a result of that. There's not much help to be given in that case other than referring to a therapist or other mental health professional in such a case. NWO PvP won't be the solution to the problem, however, just a bad and temporary fix.
4. Friends you play with. You might have formed a deep friendship with your usual PvP mates. They might even have been personal friends you came into the game with in the first place. Naturally, we are reluctant to abandon our personal relationships and feel such acts as betrayal. But face it: NWO can't really give you a proper PvP challenge. If your friends like PvP as much as you, ask them to join you in a proper PvP MMO. Stress the added challenge and improved balance and matchmaking such a game would bring. Elevate your and your friends enjoyment of PvP to another level in an environment properly suited for it.
Whatever your reason may be, don't stick around NWO, asking for PvP improvements. They will not come. The PvP base is too small for a working matchmaking, the barrier of entry to high, the netcode unable to provide a fluid experience, resulting in packet loss and respective rubberbanding, the damage to Hp scaling too far beyond hope for repair. It's just not going to work out for you in the long run. Stop your suffering now, stop placing bets in a pot far beyond your odds, fold your hand and just walk away.
Cheers.
Many of my friends have taken your suggestion and left. The few remaining likely will as well. But it would be silly not to propose simple solutions that are win-win-win for all parties, no matter if they fall on deaf ears.
The suggestions in the original post are quality of life improvements for pve and pvp players. This isn't a 'help pvp' to improve the game thread. It's a couple suggestions that would improve quality of life for everyone.
Please look past my signature, look past my preferred way of enjoying this game, and examine the suggestions on their merit.
Iyon the Dark
If you ask me, the biggest help for pure PvP Guilds would be to completely remove Boons and Mount bouses from PvP. It would drastically reduce barrier of entry and relinquish the need for Stronghold structures for PvP guilds at the same time.