Remove AD from PvP

greywynd

magenubbie said:

I'm inclined to agree. Yet my desire to voice my disgust at people like the OP who want PvP for the elites only got the better of me. People like that should suck it up and respect people for trying instead of trying to keep them out of PvP.
/rant*

*Limited by my knowledge of how the moderators would react if I were to post a full and accurate rant describing my real emotions towards these type of people.

I agree. I would like to try more PvP. We have 2 people in our guild that do it. We are at a point where we need PvP rewards to progress the overall stronghold building.

Having a stat that only works in less than 1/2 of the game is a mistake, imo.

Requiring gear that is only useful in less than 1/2 of the game, but necessary in that arena, is a mistake. It also requires storage, eating up inventory when not in use.

The casual people that might be interested in PvP don't really stand a chance in PvP until they start winning, get glory and can manage to get PvP gear. Personally, I see this as a major road block.

gankdalf

magenubbie said:

xsayajinx1 said:

I don't feed trolls

I'm inclined to agree. Yet my desire to voice my disgust at people like the OP who want PvP for the elites only got the better of me. People like that should suck it up and respect people for trying instead of trying to keep them out of PvP.
/rant*

*Limited by my knowledge of how the moderators would react if I were to post a full and accurate rant describing my real emotions towards these type of people.

Half the scrubs I see in PvP has 0 tenacity. Alot of the players dont even come down from spawn sometimes. I dont really call that trying.

regenerde

... or they could just add rAD back into the Foundry.

rayrdan

how about doubling the amount of ads and totally remove duo-trio q?
either solo-q or premade, these two will never meet each other, double ADs reward.
i would sign it right now.

gor1llaf1st

how about you just remove pvp.......... how is a stun fest for easy kill fun? you people arent real gamers

jaysun1977

ejziponken said:

Half the scrubs I see in PvP has 0 tenacity. Alot of the players dont even come down from spawn sometimes. I dont really call that trying.

And why should they invest resources before being able to try it out first? And why should they invest resources, if their first experience is getting steamrolled by a freighttrain? Why should they invest resources if all they are there for are the silly conqueror shards?

Not to mention that you sound like an elitist twat, using words like "scrub". Let me guess: you have a full PvP setup. And you expcect the ungeard to come down from the spawn to do what exactly? Come like sheep to the slaughter to stiffen your epeen? Not very likely.

urlord283

Again I am in Random PVP groups and often get 1-2K players...

But

We all had to start somewhere and PVP need new blood and a way to keep more experienced players interested

We need ways to encourage people to join PVP AD is one way but we need to have more options for Glory.

At some point there is nothing you can do with it other than Donate or Buy Healing potions

That is what the Devs should work on

mordockbr

ejziponken said:

I suggest to remove all AD from PvP. Why? Because its flooded with players that dont really want to PvP and are only there for the AD. They make no effort to gear up or win and that ruins the whole PvP experience for everyone who actually wants to PvP.

As a PvPer I rather wait 10 min for a match against players who wants to PvP rather than going up against "pugs" match after match that makes no effort at all and has PvE gear with 0 tenacity.

You can add the loss of AD to something else like Stronghold PvP or GG that needs more players.

Pvp already lacks population due to its inbalance... Removing the few rewards it has will be the fastest way to kill its population even more... Due to that i extremily disagree with your suggestion.

willson

Ranked match system is the solution for pros. Not this.

josiahiyon

Remove AD, add something like Influence. Win = gain influence for your guild. There are PVE ways to gain influence, why not PVP as well?

In general, more people playing pvp is better imo. What happened to GG? Noone ever qs for it. Maybe give first 5 daily wins (of any pvp type) give 400 influence, like 5 heroic encounters do in stronghold. But it should not be in addition to the Heroic Encounter influence, just another way to get the 400.

torontodave

josiahiyon said:

Remove AD, add something like Influence. Win = gain influence for your guild. There are PVE ways to gain influence, why not PVP as well?

In general, more people playing pvp is better imo. What happened to GG? Noone ever qs for it. Maybe give first 5 daily wins (of any pvp type) give 400 influence, like 5 heroic encounters do in stronghold. But it should not be in addition to the Heroic Encounter influence, just another way to get the 400.

id be happy with one daily win giving +400, in addition to the HE's..

or even 4 wins (100 each) @panderus

josiahiyon

No, it should be just another way to earn the 400 influence from 5 wins. Not in addition. Now, if they wanted to increase the 400 cap from HEs to, say, 800, then this could be another way to get that 800. But not in addition. Additional would make pve players feel like they have to pvp, and that isn't the desired outcome. Just another avenue to get the influence.

Give pvpers some way to get influence w/o having to do pve, make pvp rewarding while still accomplishing the OP goal.

silverkelt

do you really think people will flock to a match for influence.. if nothing else you can knock out minor ones in the SH in 15 mins..

+ get a few dragon hoard/wanderer drops + some r5s and scant gold.

That would me of more intrinsic value then playing some matches.

They should double the AD gain on pvp events.. thats what they should do.. PVPing limits progress by a huge amount in this game.. only complete idiots PVP for AD atm for progression. You can reach the AD camp easily without it.. (even if you wanted to.. which is again, not really the best way to get AD right now)

without adding MORE value for PVP, you will not grow the community but just shrink it more.

Again.. all I here is this same variation for mods and mods..

" oh knows I gotz a scrubz.. hes no elite enough for me .. removez him from the gamez!!!! I would rekt him myselvez if I couldz!!!" "Killz yourself scrubz.. 1!!)

Jeebus, and you all wonder why the pvp community has shrunk every mod for ages.

PVP should have a progression level and entry limit .. GG should clearly be capped at a certain arp % /tennacity level and they should implement armor exchange lock once in a match..

This is how other games balance out stuff when its gear placed.. make lower end pvp, middle class and high end.

THIS Way players know what to expect..

Go ahead many of you can blame yourself.. I saw it myself after mod 6.. ELITE players and GUILDS entering GG because dom was dying so they could go blitza on scrubs (why I dont even know)

this is the moment when PVP truly started dying.

This behavior wasnt the norm until middle of mod 6.. this is when I all about gave up on pvp, (though in all honesty it was more to do with AD earning potential then pvp itself) But this WAS the biggest reason why pvp is in a terrible state.

torontodave

silverkelt said:

Go ahead many of you can blame yourself.. I saw it myself after mod 6.. ELITE players and GUILDS entering GG because dom was dying so they could go blitza on scrubs (why I dont even know)

this was when they fixed double/triple kills, and NPC kills.. lots of people were just finishing up the GG PVP Tasks which had been bugged for 6+ months. =X

josiahiyon

Yes, influence is the biggest bottleneck, especially for pvp guilds. It's not only a big motivator, it's also a huge quality of life improvement. Actually getting influence for playing the game the way you want. Keep in mind that 400 influence is ~40k AD, and most PVPers really don't like being forced to do those 15 minutes of HEs each day. Like, they leave the game over that kind of stuff. To some, that 40k AD per day is literal AD as they pay for vouchers rather than have to do the HEs.

PVE and PVP players should be similarly rewarded for doing the things they enjoy. That means upping the rewards in pvp, and gating them behind actually winning. You don't get influence in PVE if you fail the heroic encounter. You shouldn't get rewards in pvp if you lose. But, that's fine so long as there are other more enjoyable avenues to earn similar rewards for all players.

And again, it's 5 wins per day of any pvp format. siege, gg, or domination. 400 influence. Or, get that same influence doing HEs.

almondum

PvP and PvP and we need more PvP... pfff. I'm tired of reading this all over again. This game has excellent combat, but this is a PVE game, PVP is here just to give a small distraction. This is not PVP dedicated game. So many awful things happened because of PVP, functional classes tuned down because of PvP..and for what? So maybe 20% of all players become less angry for couple of days and find a new reason to start "crying" again.

I did not-hardcorly PVP some modules ago, and it was fun. I had fun doing GG with random people, there was just 1 bug from the spawn zone that needed correcting, the rest was fine. There was always 1 losing team, that only won when it was the sleeping time in USA, and I was from that team. Fortunatly I'm not from USA and did GG while americans/others slept.

And it was fun purely because there were people to PVP with. I remember some classes that could kill me in 3 seconds, but that did not matter, it was still fun to learn how to time my dodges so their powers "miss".
Please don't suggest stuff that makes PVP even less attractive for casuals.

AD is fine in PVP, I wish they added it to Foundry once again. I saw intreresting suggestions above, but AD should not be removed from PVP unless something equally good takes its place.

Note: I know several very good PVP games, with that balance that so many want here. I am not going and can't mention them here, but I can answer your PM in case you're interested.

Have fun,
Almondum.

josiahiyon

2 suggestions to improve quality of life for PVE and PVPers:

(1) As stated above, consider pvp wins in Domination, GG, and siege the same as completing an HE in the stronghold. i.e. give up to 400 influence a day from this, but not in addition to the 400 influence gained from HEs. Just as another option. 5 wins in any of these 3 pvp formats provides 400 influence per day, in the same way that HEs do (150, 120, etc).

I'm going to retract what I said earlier about agreeing to remove AD. Instead of removing the AD reward in PVP, I suggest doubling it but putting it behind a 'Win' filter. Have to win to get the AD.

(2) Remove and replace glory and conquerer shards from stronghold building requirements. Then, add a glory vendor that allows players to exchange glory earned in pvp for vouchers that they can donate to their stronghold coffer.

This removes the obligatory pvp requirement put on PVE players in order to build their barracks, and simultaneously removes the obligatory pve requirement put on PVP players in order to build their stronghold.

silverkelt

Well im all for streamlinging strongholds .. ive said that many time.. too much of whatever.. how about you play the game and get a random general voucher for any activity you do.. t1 gave you a green , t2 a blue and dragonflight (4 dragons) 1 tia or 1 edemo gave you a purple, a win in PVP gg gives you a green, dom a blue and siege a purple.

you then normalized ALL dontations value and gave a voucher.. you could still GIVE other grindy items.. but AT least this way.. no matter WHAT you did in game, you got something to give back to guild.

I said that at the start.. I still think it wouldve worked well.

josiahiyon

PVE effectively works that way. You don't get vouchers, but you get drops (surplus, gems, ad, gold, influence, etc). You just don't get glory, no glory or conquer shards, but my suggestion to remove these from sh requirements resolves that issue.

PVP is what needs the most help. A glory:voucher trader would serve this purpose, in addition to influence on winning.

For PVE, I'd also throw out the idea of any HE in game giving influence on winning. Not just SH HEs. Maybe from successfully finishing a dungeon or skirmish too, basically just more ways to earn influence. But keep the daily cap at 400, and consider these just as heroic encounters.

gankdalf

magenubbie said:

ejziponken said:

magenubbie said:

xsayajinx1 said:

I don't feed trolls

I'm inclined to agree. Yet my desire to voice my disgust at people like the OP who want PvP for the elites only got the better of me. People like that should suck it up and respect people for trying instead of trying to keep them out of PvP.
/rant*

*Limited by my knowledge of how the moderators would react if I were to post a full and accurate rant describing my real emotions towards these type of people.

Half the scrubs I see in PvP has 0 tenacity. Alot of the players dont even come down from spawn sometimes. I dont really call that trying.

Oh boo hoo. You need to PvP to get tenacity gear, but you're not allowed to PvP without it? Raise your game or start putting out some real arguments. And apart from the grievers and trolls you have in every game, can you possibly think of a reason for people not to come down? I sure can.

Tenacity gear should be available for AD or should not even be coming from gear at all. This is one of the biggest problems in PvP and easy to solve. It makes no sense at all to force players to go through PvP matches without any tenacity and just getting steamrolled. And it makes no sense forcing PvP players who wants good matches to meet these players without the gear.

PvP needs to have players that wants to be there for the PvP fight. Not for rewards. So all rewards needs to be gated behind a win. Im going to retract my first post where I want to remove the AD. That should be the last resort. Gating it behind a win makes much more sense like @josiahiyon stated.

silverkelt

I would also put arp at 100% gate.. it should be no higher then that.. even at that its too high, but I know so many pvpers who would get all upset about reducing it more.

I frankly would put it down to 60% level on par with pve.. just another broken thing.

torontodave

You guys. I'm getting a strange sense of deja vu.

These are all great suggestions, just like the foundry folk had.

That 'pillar' of Neverwinter is no longer standing. This PVP Pillar is crumbling.

How many legs can you lose before a table no longer stands? ;D

demonmonger

I only use pvp gear even for pve stuff.

rhodah

Thanks for that post @ejziponken. I think that's a goot suggestion. There is not fun to kill green/blue geared folks which is only want to cap and get the ADs. Removing AD from domination and add it to SH or GG might help to revive that other two pvp - events and would help the pvpers to get better fights. That could be implemented quick and of course besides of the still necessary balancing in pvp.

willson

almondum said:

Note: I know several very good PVP games, with that balance that so many want here. I am not going and can't mention them here, but I can answer your PM in case you're interested.

Its funny when I frequently get the answer: "there are other games for pvp".
Maybe there mmos for better pvp but there is a small problem. It take half or one year(years?) to get a well geared character to pvp there and we already have one here unless you have big salary.
I won't start another mmo just for pvp because its better for pvp and this one has problems.

I think its a problem too that random casuals get steamrolled by premades of pvp clans w/o making a sweat.
But I accept the fact that since mod5-6? you have to have a BIS gear a pvp only character and maybe joining a pvp clan to have
moderate succes in pvp. (still working on those).
Unless you don't have it get your daily win for Stronghold and get out of there.

I remember in mod 1-2 you just join with guildies for pvp and have fun. Now its too big difference between pvp gears and characters. It started with mod2: tenacity mod.

lupisu

silverkelt said:

do you really think people will flock to a match for influence.. if nothing else you can knock out minor ones in the SH in 15 mins..

+ get a few dragon hoard/wanderer drops + some r5s and scant gold.

That would me of more intrinsic value then playing some matches.

They should double the AD gain on pvp events.. thats what they should do.. PVPing limits progress by a huge amount in this game.. only complete idiots PVP for AD atm for progression. You can reach the AD camp easily without it.. (even if you wanted to.. which is again, not really the best way to get AD right now)

without adding MORE value for PVP, you will not grow the community but just shrink it more.

Again.. all I here is this same variation for mods and mods..

" oh knows I gotz a scrubz.. hes no elite enough for me .. removez him from the gamez!!!! I would rekt him myselvez if I couldz!!!" "Killz yourself scrubz.. 1!!)

Jeebus, and you all wonder why the pvp community has shrunk every mod for ages.

PVP should have a progression level and entry limit .. GG should clearly be capped at a certain arp % /tennacity level and they should implement armor exchange lock once in a match..

This is how other games balance out stuff when its gear placed.. make lower end pvp, middle class and high end.

THIS Way players know what to expect..

Go ahead many of you can blame yourself.. I saw it myself after mod 6.. ELITE players and GUILDS entering GG because dom was dying so they could go blitza on scrubs (why I dont even know)

this is the moment when PVP truly started dying.

This behavior wasnt the norm until middle of mod 6.. this is when I all about gave up on pvp, (though in all honesty it was more to do with AD earning potential then pvp itself) But this WAS the biggest reason why pvp is in a terrible state.

Your outrage at how some people treat others is all well and good, the topic, however, was not about people too weak to get things done, but rather people unwilling to try. As you no longer PVP you may be unaware that, even tho you consider it a bad use of time, people who enter solely to get the AD for capping twice is, in fact, a common occurrence.

This is partly due to the fact that legitimately new players without a strong guild to lean on have less access and knowledge of other ways to farm AD. They will go to where the game points them. Multi running dungeons is all well and good, but pugging at under 2k item level is liable to end in slow often unsuccessful runs interceded with kicks. Along with, the in PVE as well not uncommon, vitriol from players who feel they are too good for you.

In fact your earlier comparison with Tiamat was apt. I well recall the time when even the legit channel was calling times for the sole purpose of avoiding instances with too many AFK or otherwise not considered ready for it players. Never mind the multitude of 3 or 4k raid channels the game abounds with. Elitism is not a PVP only problem.

Bracketing would an oft requested solution that seems to have little opponents from any gear level, other than a few naysayers claim there would not be enough players that is. Given that domination does pop in a reasonable amount of time usually, and that the forum is full of complaints, both from average joes running into premades, as well those premades running into them, it would seem worth a try at least. If nothing else you could port over a system that's been in use for example on chess servers for ages. As time in queue grows longer the acceptable difference to be matched gets larger. At least something, anything, to make things less painful for all involved.

It may be that removing AD from PVP will not solve anything, but giving incentive to enter without intention to play is no solution either. And for me personally at least, players who enter group content with no intention of even trying to assist their group are, as that one pet is so fond of saying, leeches that have no place in either game mode. Now that we have kicking back in PVP (And how I wish it weren't so) I fear that is something this will invariably lead to. Probably with the same amount of prejudice as in PVE where you commonly see people pointing to gear instead of effort as sole sufficient reason.

To finish this off for my part I'll tell a tale of PVP as an anecdote. Some time ago I queued into dom as a 2.6k CW, with only decent pvp gear to his name. The opponents looked strong, although not a premade so painful times were to be expected, but with the rest of our team being composed of players on par it looked to be a fight. Alas that "BIS" CW from a PVP guild we had with us spent the first couple of minutes jumping rings around our campfire. Fortunately the "PUG", we got after the team gave him the boot helped scratch out a win in a close match. Refusing to fight, and getting hated for it, is not only the privilege of the weak.