Thorned roots issue

hawkend

Hi,

Thorned roots not benefit weapon damage from offhand weapon. For test just unequip bow and hit by hindering stike with daggers then make this time again but with bow and without daggers. If cryptic would add in formula offhand weapon damage then HR will get get next multipler(60%) which going to grant 37.5% more damage from Thorned Roots. Remember that i not count median but maximum increase of damage. For the lowest weapon damage we're going to get multipler 46% which would grants 30% dmage boost. I cant show ACT logs because 0s from ticks is not showing, so i'll post later a video.

https://youtu.be/acXCNT8DXOo

#UPDATE
ACT LOGS:
http://imgur.com/qbZpawW

For tests i used Hindering Strike(one time i used Constricting Arrow when i havent equip daggers).

kievitz

Tested this also, the only thing here is that roots dont proc without the bow, seems main-hand has to be equipped for hindering melee roots to do any damage. More testing should be done to see if the strong thorned roots are actually based on bows base damage (main-hand weapon) or is it WAI.

Or has anyone already tested this extensively??

feanor70118

Try unequipping your main hand and testing hindering strike on a dummy. You'll find that root ticks do 0 damage.
So add one more thing to the long list of HR bugs and ninja nerfs.

kievitz

Tested this out, the issue is whether the melee thorned roots are based on main or off-hand damage.

But i think its WAI..., the main has to be equipped for the code to understand that you are armed and melee thorned roots still take base dmg from blades, hopefully.

More accurate dmg tests are needed.

hawkend

Truely, you dont need to test this extensively to get answer. Thorned roots getting weapon damage only from main-hand which can be assumed as bug. I even wouldn't say that this is a wrong tooltip description. In logic thinking, weapon damage is sum of main-hand and offhand weapon damage(Please, dont classify ranged/meele powers because Thorned Roots is a passive damage). At all Thorned Roots is a passive damage, so it's should count 2 elements.

@kievitz

Specially for you i done one test more. I compared Drowned Bow+Daggers with Drowned Bow+Axes of Elemental Fire(transmute one 14-17 weapon damage) and there is no diffrence.

hawkend

Mate, there you have a thread about this http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1214960/thorned-roots-issue. It's better to stick with one thread. Anyway when i posted this thread i gave message to @strumslinger but i am not sure he read this.

feanor70118

Thanks for pointing out the thread. I hadn't noticed it because the title is so generic I never read it.

zebular

hawkend said:

Mate, there you have a thread about this http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1214960/thorned-roots-issue. It's better to stick with one thread. Anyway when i posted this thread i gave message to @strumslinger but i am not sure he read this.

feanor70118 said:

Thanks for pointing out the thread. I hadn't noticed it because the title is so generic I never read it.

Threads merged and sent to Bug Reports. Thanks!

kievitz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaAGtZHo7d0

it seems bugged, KB tested this

Unknown

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kievitz

Well the thing is the off-hand should proc thorned alone, thats a bug for sure, and as i previously posted it also might be that thorned roots dont proc unless the main weapon is equipped, "bad" coding i bet, glitch, bug, what ever u wanna call it.

kievitz

Thorned roots uses weapon damage, we have 2 different weapon damages wich are calculated in both stances separately,i expect this to be WAI.

Thorned roots have 2 different base damages melee and ranged.

So the only thing here is bugged is that off-hand does not proc thorned roots alone and i think also do devs.

Ex. LM set bonus weapon damage i based on our stance, ranged procs main-hand damage while in melee it procs off-hand damage, WAI.

No HR power should calculate both weapons as base damage at the same time. That is just wrong math.

hawkend

@kievitz

Please look on 1st post. Specially for you i done ACT logs with a few variants. We need to remember that Thorned Roots is passive damage. I know that meele/ranged powers shouldn't count both weapons damage but with passive damage it's should.

feanor70118

The thing is that Thorned Roots is passive damage: It should be 200% of weapon damage every second. Every other form of passive damage in the game counts both main hand and off-hand. There's no reason HRs alone should get credit for only one or the other (we've suffered enough ninja nerfs already, thanks). If you think that counting our whole stats would make us overpowered, I'd love to see GF's off-hand abilities reduced to only off-hand damage, for instance. As HRs we're already used to outplaying most other classes ten to one to no effect. If this is a bug, it would explain a lot.

kievitz

hawkend said:

@kievitz

Please look on 1st post. Specially for you i done ACT logs with a few variants. We need to remember that Thorned Roots is passive damage. I know that meele/ranged powers shouldn't count both weapons damage but with passive damage it's should.

Its WAI.

The notion that passives on HR would be calculated by melee+ranged would be just plain wrong.

Besides where do you get the information that passives like roots should be calculated with both damages added?

Do you have information from devs that it should be so, or is said somewhere.

Logic says weapon damage for us is either calculated from melee or ranged weapon damage, because we have 2 stances and there for 2 different weapons.

kievitz

feanor70118 said:

The thing is that Thorned Roots is passive damage: It should be 200% of weapon damage every second. Every other form of passive damage in the game counts both main hand and off-hand. There's no reason HRs alone should get credit for only one or the other (we've suffered enough ninja nerfs already, thanks). If you think that counting our whole stats would make us overpowered, I'd love to see GF's off-hand abilities reduced to only off-hand damage, for instance. As HRs we're already used to outplaying most other classes ten to one to no effect. If this is a bug, it would explain a lot.

Any damage done by GFs abilitys % amount of weapon damage, is calculated by main-hand base damage only. Whether done by off-hand or main-hand, the off-hand damage has to be calculated from somewhere or they have to give shield a base damage stat and implement new coding.

I think things could get very broken if our roots suddenly started making 2x more damage.

My 2.6IL hr ticked thorned criticals around 13k as full trapper, that with master trapper feat ~10 times

now multiply it by 2.

new dmg would be 2x13kx10= 260K damage purely from root ticks

and that would be bad as we can keep roots tickin infinitely.

I know we are not the best in dps but to not the worst either.

feanor70118

1.6 is not the same thing as 2. Shocking, I know. And actually the way this works is that we're missing 37.5% of thorned roots damage. Off hand damage is .6 of main hand damage. .6/1.6 = 3/8 = 37.5%. This has been your lesson in fourth grade math for today. The idea that HRs are missing 37.5% of one aspect of their damage is not exactly shocking, given how the class has been underperforming since mod 6.

hawkend

I edit first post for more readble. You need to remember that multipler is not raw damage.

ralexinor

Thorned Roots has always been this way. I don't necessarily see it as a bug because HR main-hand and off-hand has always been calculated as different sources, and have never been added together for anything, if I recall correctly. This is more of a fundamental flaw with the class itself rather than a bug.

Thorned Roots is based off ranged damage multipliers (AotS ranged stacks, etc.) and mainhand weapon damage.

kievitz

struck the dummy in melee , initial hit, non-crit, made around 4400 dmg, root ticks were around 6500 dmg both, now would somebody explain to me this

my weapon damage is 738-901 and bonus from power is 47%

thorned root tick-hindering strikes dmg= 200% weapon damage (i assume wepon has the power multiplied by 47% before this happens)

6500-4400=2100

that would mean in melee stance my weapon damage is truly added 200% to the hindering strike root damage, but wait,

Our roots are doing 6500 dmg. So if our weapons did only 200% damage with thorned roots, we would get a nerf. The thorned roots tooltip says:

Your Strong Grasping Roots are upgraded to Thorned Roots. Thorned Roots deal 40/80/120/160/200% of your weapon damage every second. 250% of your weapon damage is dealt immediately to control immune targets.

so roots are pretty much not working as the tooltip says, in this case we would get a nerf and new design.

roots are not suppose to (according to tooltip) tick hindering strikes damage only the 200% weapon damage.

So im now interestingly waiting what devs have to say.

And please someone with the proper equation how to count this dmg post it here.

kievitz

@terramak could some system dev get some clarification to this or this is gonna blow in our hands pretty soon.
Were chasing ghosts here, until we get proper calculation method on the damage for thorned roots. And to the mechanic of stances.

Thank you.

krondhor

UP, we still need an answer from a dev, let's not make this thread end in a silent corner like many others.

feanor70118

I'm sure they'll get to it when they remember that HRs exist. Should only be a year or two.

snuff

Thorned Roots works properly. LM set works with both weapons basic dmg on first tick TR.

feanor70118

Almost three weeks and still no response. How surprising.