Short Letter on "Broken" state of PvP

zeusom

The major problems and broken things in domination pvp right now (mod 7, 8, and 9) are:

1) AMBUSH RING (Permastealth): Does not match the tooltip (Not WAI) + Overpowered = Broken.
2) DRAINS (Overloads, Stamina/AP depletion): Does not match the tooltip (Not WAI) + Overpowered = Broken.
3) TRANS SHADOWCLAD (near permastealth): Does not match the tooltip (Not WAI) + Overpowered = Broken.
4) PALADINS (near immortality in pvp): The devs said the class is far more immortal than intended + Overpowered = Broken.

The ambush gives full stealth not partial stealth. Compare to the tooltip description and mechanic of rogue stealth which is "full" stealth. Ambush ring stealth behaves almost identically. Drains are were intended to slowly drain small portions or AP/stamina not completely wipe full bars in a second or two. Many rightly view drains as overpowered dirty, cheap, and unfair because without wards access (many lower tier players) they really are that bad. The new trans shadowclad enchant is supposed to proc stealth once every 30 seconds but it was released really broken with no stealth cooldown or stack reset. Everyone knows Paladins "permabubble" and other aspects are broken as a class and a rework is on the way. These things and others that have been fixed or removed (Cowardice "permarepel" ring 2months broken) have made the last 3 mods of pvp in a bit of a sad state with chronic unabalance and brokenness in almost every match.

So that's the short summary. Some players use these things and do not care; they just want to rip other players any way they can cheating or not and care nothing for a truly good game. In fact, the conditions of pvp the last 3 mods are selecting for these players and slowly driving away the honorable (a disaster for NW pvp, really) players who want a true 'good game'. In talking with these players, their list of justifications why they abuse such things is like a repeating record.

The three MOST popular justifactions for broken stuff are:

(A) Citing other unbalanced things (like 5 active mount bonuses) as being "just as broken"
(B) My class is underpowered and needs it to compete, so its fair
(C) I dont care, they can all die ( or something like that).

To respond to these:
(A) Citing other "broken" things (fill in blank):
Players will say things like "Well having 5 active mount bonuses is even more broken than permastealth shadowclad enchant". Wrong. These are often examples of things players see as maybe unbalanced but they do as least work as intended. It is another justification. There is a real concrete difference. So "broken" really means its both not working as intended (bugged) AND overpowered.
Not Working as Intended - Item/power does not behave according to the tooltip
Overpowered - Item/power has a significant impact on the game beyond, more than most all others
"Broken" - An item/power/build/etc both is not WAI and is overpowered

(B) BS. Your class is underpowered is an excuse. I went over 800 kills 0 death on the decidedly "weakest" scourge warlock class and did this -without drains -without permastealth ring -without broken Transshadowclad -without a pocket cleric or paladin, almost entirely solo queue.. Part for challenge and to prove a point. But I was playing against players in almost every match who where using some or all of those broken things. And this was not by being a ***** and only farming pugs and camping for hard matches. I was trying to win and going into risky situations, close to death many times and camped for maybe only 15 of over 120 matches when it was clearly not winnable or there were some of a few known personal trolls on the opposing team. I finished the 'exercise' with a reasonable solo queue record 85 Wins - 41 losses. So 5 mods of building testing and mastering a class and playing legit performed better overall than every players knowingly abusing all things broken. In short, L2P is real. And its the same story with guild vs guild premade. My guild has forbidden the use of drains and ambush rings and we still almost always beat guilds who use them without much problem.

(C) I don't care, F them all. Welp. This could have been a great game. But sadly this is the kind of person and attitude that is emerging more and more in neverwinter pvp and part of the reason is that more and more honorable and quality players have gotten fed up with all of the shenanigans and broken stuff and have slowly gone away to other games.

If the devs fix these things in PvP and restore some healthy normalcy and balance, then great. Maybe PvP will revive and NCL will come back too. The combat platform itself is superb. If not, then pvp will probably become even more of a a desolate wasteland sideshow and die off.
Abusing broken things, things that are definitely not WAI, does not not appear on the leaderboard and will not usually ever get anyone banned, but its becoming a very small community and other players will sure recognize you by name and put a mental *asterisk next to you as an exploiter or abuser of broken stuff and a player/gamer with little to no honor. Legit players will often go out of their way to target and kill you, you draw aggro and distaste. And player abusing this stuff also represents the guild on their tag as a guild that abuses that stuff. If you want respect and want pvp to be fun again, put down the broken stuff and learn to play. Thanks.

icyphish

Thats because you are overpowered Sophi! Can't touch this~ dong dong dong dong~ dong dong dong dong~ can't touch this~ :O

colonelwing

In my opinion, exploiters and those who happened to obtain their things as gifts, from exploiters... should not be allowed to demand anything game mechanic - wise, since the biggest imbalance in PvP to this day is not drains or stealth rings, neither shadowclads but. The biggest imbalance is caused by a huge gear gap, that on the other hand is/was caused by heavy astral resonator bug abuse. So nah, Cryptic should start with removing the root(s) of the problem. I know, this would probably get most of your guildies banned, but hey.. The game would be better off without you people ruining it since day 1, anyway.

Have a great day.

plavia

colonelwing said:

... The biggest imbalance is caused by a huge gear gap...

I agree with that, all the things you mention as broken disturb only high level PVP players who play between themself.
99% can not play PVP at all.
for me even a CW from certin guild (boons) with high level PVP equip is imortaL.

you guys giving advices how to balance the game between a handfull of guilds.
rest of us are cannon fodder

mamalion1234

colonelwing said:

In my opinion, exploiters and those who happened to obtain their things as gifts, from exploiters... should not be allowed to demand anything game mechanic - wise, since the biggest imbalance in PvP to this day is not drains or stealth rings, neither shadowclads but. The biggest imbalance is caused by a huge gear gap, that on the other hand is/was caused by heavy astral resonator bug abuse. So nah, Cryptic should start with removing the root(s) of the problem. I know, this would probably get most of your guildies banned, but hey.. The game would be better off without you people ruining it since day 1, anyway.

Have a great day.

huge gear cap xm xm. NOPE as soon leadership is still out there and the character slots In zen market 50 the cap. a new player can have in 4-5 months the benefit has the old players with 50 characters. OK happened the astral resonator is in the past. A FRIEND STARTED game 2 months ago and is already 3k because played the auction house thing. -

THE only thing i dont like is the speech : playing since beta so what that doesnt make you better than the new one.

zeusom

Yes its true that gear level is a much bigger difference than using this broken stuff. However this post is about the broken things, not about gear difference. Different topic. The queue really ought to work by balancing gear rather than class types. That would result in many more close matches.

And building gear is just part of the game and always has been. Not everyone who has best in slot gear got it from exploiting or a credit card including me. With the economic changes, if a new player starts a modest leadership farm, does a good number of dailies, and plays the auction house, they can have best in slot gear in about 6 months which is reasonable.

gankdalf

--

gankdalf

At this point I have given up all hope for PvP in this game. Its so freaking sad that a game with so much potential went down the drain(s) because of decisions that are mildly put, HAMSTER. And its even more sad that the PvP can be such a much better experience with only a few changes (and ofc more work in longterm when it comes to balance).

Remove drains - Worst addition to PvP ever.
Remove stealth from gear
Fix paladins
Fix matchmaking so it takes gear score into consideration when making teams.

These changes wont make PvP good. But it will make it suck far less then it does today.

And wtf all these mount bonuses. People have like 500-10 in kill/deaths on the leaderboard, how is that not broken? Some even have 1000-10.

@terramak Can you please say something about the decision about Drains and stealth in PvP? And why cant you just disable them?

schietindebux

The company itself obviously has given up on PVP for month.
The negative selection of player, who only look for most broken <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> to abuse, combined with a silly geargap is not to fix by a company that even can't solve small problems in time.

revovlerjesus1

Thats just a few things tbh, the game is so broken atm that almost every competiteve pvp players left the game. Well cant blaim em, when cryptic dosent let us test things before they go live, and when they say it will be fixed the damage is done (cus it takes forever to fix) And next broken thing is let lose. It is a dead game, sad to say but its truley is.

lonewolfmk1

I think you forgot one of my biggest gripes, guild boons. While i agree with all the issues posted above, guild boons are the one thing a member of a large guild will always have as a powerfully advantage over a member of a small guild (or guildless). Usually, you can get your own drain marks, or wards. There are guilds who other that service, but you can have a fully BIS char and still have to fight at a huge disadvantage due to guild boons. They are also the only boons you can archieve without working for it, if you join a guild that is already build up.

ilmenira

omg Sophi you are so heavily geared! do you know what the deepest difference in Neverwinter level 70 pvp is?
---> gear, boons... !

by the way, the ambush ring is one of the very few things, that is relatively easy to reach for pvp newcomers, and helps us protect at least a little bit from 4k+ top pvp gear, trans + rang 12 enchantments, legendary and mythic artefacts, guild boons etc etc players (or shall i simply say *killers* ? :-)) )

i feel like a 4 year old child being boxed to death by heavy weight boxers... who can call this sportsmanship? even pretend that it's about skill or fairness???

and would that heavy weight say: you are playing unfair! you are using this (or that) ring!
when i am basically naked and without defense or power of even scratching him/her...

i could laugh all my way out... but still practicing a bit... it's a good training for my nerves...

rayrdan

ilmenira said:

omg Sophi you are so heavily geared! do you know what the deepest difference in Neverwinter level 70 pvp is?
---> gear, boons... !

by the way, the ambush ring is one of the very few things, that is relatively easy to reach for pvp newcomers, and helps us protect at least a little bit from 4k+ top pvp gear, trans + rang 12 enchantments, legendary and mythic artefacts, guild boons etc etc players (or shall i simply say *killers* ? :-)) )

i feel like a 4 year old child being boxed to death by heavy weight boxers... who can call this sportsmanship? even pretend that it's about skill or fairness???

and would that heavy weight say: you are playing unfair! you are using this (or that) ring!
when i am basically naked and without defense or power of even scratching him/her...

i could laugh all my way out... but still practicing a bit... it's a good training for my nerves...

and what if that heavily geared player decides enough is enough and start using the same ring and maybe some rank 2 drains because you know "its in game it must to be balanced"?

setill

Why do you guys keep complaining?
Don't you understand, it's how they make money? Everything you say here is used to build player's frustration.
Players complain about a class that can go stealth -> they made ambush ring and all class can go stealth.
Players complain about all classes going stealth -> they made shadowclad.
You think they are bugged, but they aren't, where did you see a game with so much bugs ? Are devs incompetent? i doubt so, they just implement broken stuff in purpose.
In summary, they make money on player's frustration.

ilmenira

rayrdan said:

and what if that heavily geared player decides enough is enough and start using the same ring and maybe some rank 2 drains because you know "its in game it must to be balanced"?

i don't mind so much, rayrdan... as i'm in a lowest or almost lowest place anyway... i have a +3 ring, if they want, they will probably have higher ones... and of course they use drains... also members from top pvp guilds who play in premade do that against scattered pug newcomer groups... i will then have to decide on *new strategies*, and that means mainly about trying to toughen my nerves further and keep my mood up!

my personal victory is if i can come out with even mood after defeat... funny isn't it?

but see -- they would often prefer other rings, that give them more fighting power... they don't need to hide as much as i do!

Unknown

This content has been removed.

zeusom

ilmenira said:

omg Sophi you are so heavily geared! do you know what the deepest difference in Neverwinter level 70 pvp is?
---> gear, boons... !

by the way, the ambush ring is one of the very few things, that is relatively easy to reach for pvp newcomers, and helps us protect at least a little bit from 4k+ top pvp gear.. i feel like a 4 year old child being boxed to death by heavy weight boxers... who can call this sportsmanship? even pretend that it's about skill or fairness???

and would that heavy weight say: you are playing unfair! you are using this (or that) ring!
when i am basically naked and without defense or power of even scratching him/her...

I really can understand this. And agree with you. I don't think a 2k or 3k player fighting a 4k player is a "L2P" case at all. And in a way ambush ring, sieging ring, and other things have helped increase queing for pvp by undergeared players and that is good.

I wasn't clear about this, but the whole criticism of using those broken things was definitely directed at near max geared or best in slot players who use them and don't need them but use these things to the fullest abuse potential anyway. Like 4k CW who wear +4 ambush rings 24/7 and drains and etc both solo and in for full pvp guild groups.

pando83

Just want to add: time ago i was told by a 4k TR from a fictional guild i'll call "AoE", that my 2k HR using ambush ring was an unforgivable sin and that i got to be "punished". After some discussions, i dropped the ring on the alt and started supporting the cause.

Today, i met an half premade of the same guild. Double GWF. One of them was a 4k GWF using T.Shadowclad to be pretty much almost permastealth. When i told him "4k and you need to abuse T.Shadowclad? From EoA too?", he replied "it's working as intended, go buy one".

So when at the time i talked about such people being hypocritical, i was right.

Ambush ring that is available to pugs too was bad, but expensive T.Shadowclad for BiS guys only is ok.

Now we see where we are going.

ilmenira

zeusom said:

I really can understand this. And agree with you. I don't think a 2k or 3k player fighting a 4k player is a "L2P" case at all. And in a way ambush ring, sieging ring, and other things have helped increase queing for pvp by undergeared players and that is good.

I wasn't clear about this, but the whole criticism of using those broken things was definitely directed at near max geared or best in slot players who use them and don't need them but use these things to the fullest abuse potential anyway. Like 4k CW who wear +4 ambush rings 24/7 and drains and etc both solo and in for full pvp guild groups.

thank you! :-)

ilmenira

clonkyo1 said:

[...]

Other problem is the fact that a huge player base it's ignored by the game's progression itself thanks to that abomination called "Mod7 - Strongholds". Not just because of drains, which they are only a small part of the problem, but the whole concept itself: This abomination allows to a small group of players to even be more OP than they already are thanks to its boons, its market, its exclusive profession system, etc. Worse yet, this abomination allows 2.8k IL chars have stats which only 4k IL players can dream about (like 12k on ArP or 25k on Power or 150k HP pools, in example) . This must be wiped out from "normal" content, this is, all this stuff is allowed on SH PvE map, PvP Siege and private Queues. This way, normal players will not be affected by this stuff while players who worked hard to obtain it will still enjoy it.

[...]

guild boon is even more influencial in lower level pvp (below level 70)
you find chars with about the same IL but over 10 k added relevant stats... which can make for more than double your stats!

you also find chars with basically nothing (pvp greens and blues without stones) and not in guilds (probably on purpose to avoid that massive stat gap) but they have this: trans feytouched + tans negation (on a non pvp breast plate)

and hey, it makes a difference!

langobalt

pando83 said:

Just want to add: time ago i was told by a 4k TR from a fictional guild i'll call "AoE", that my 2k HR using ambush ring was an unforgivable sin and that i got to be "punished". After some discussions, i dropped the ring on the alt and started supporting the cause.

Today, i met an half premade of the same guild. Double GWF. One of them was a 4k GWF using T.Shadowclad to be pretty much almost permastealth. When i told him "4k and you need to abuse T.Shadowclad? From EoA too?", he replied "it's working as intended, go buy one".

So when at the time i talked about such people being hypocritical, i was right.

Ambush ring that is available to pugs too was bad, but expensive T.Shadowclad for BiS guys only is ok.

Now we see where we are going.

+++++

ironzerg79

Please keep on topic. Flaming, trolling or naming and shaming are against the forum rules.

canmann

All this spouting off about bad behavior from someone in a guild that defines bad behavior in PvP..... all i see here is pot calling kettle....

romanpimp

Why you would not add DC AP gain bug that so comfortably abusing in your guild or TR's SE piercing. Why every SW cries that SW is so friking weak but no one in the game can kill Sophi 1 vs 1? That's lol. SW isn't weak, just not much players play the class and less players know how to build SW and play. But it's definitely not weak.
Also that dude or chick( i don't know) called RAYRDAN always complains about other classes but not about his main TR that he/she runs with max power/recovery to one shot ppl and not to be killed. Or his/her permarooter hr. Double standarts?
I really glad devs brought shadowclad so we can counter other broken <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> around.
Saw Sophi in pvp gang. TR put on her Courage Breaker... That's was friking hilarious. That's what they do. Is Courage Breaker broken as well? lolol
PS; To topic starter. Why would dude made female toon with female name?)))) Question is rhetorical. No answer needed.)

subnocte

While I might agree with a lot of this, PvP in the game is so fundamentally broken, it feels like this is way down on the list. With next to no real balance between classes, and power creep so totally out of control -- various boons, mounts and insignias all giving ridiculous possible boosts -- on top of a ridiculously large gear gap at level 70, I wonder if the devs have all but given up with PvP now.

That said, it does HAMSTER me off to see 3.5-4k+ premades in PvP using AP and stamina drains and all the rings all at the same time.

zeusom

romanpimp#7593 said:

PS; To topic starter. Why would dude made female toon with female name?)))) Question is rhetorical. No answer needed.)

Alright, since this is the most important question in the thread..

Because I can. When I started NW I made 10 toons, about half male half female. I went warlock because it was fun and ended up my main Sophi, modeled on an old girlfriend. Got tired of this toon being assumed female (even getting randomly hit on, yes it happened) so rerolled male halfing "Froggy krueger". But this caused guild confusion because old members still called me Sophi and newer members Froggy (who is Sophi?) so renamed back. Many of the best PvPers in Absolute are guys playing female toons: Carla (GF), Kalina (CW), Kate (DC), Sophi (SW). You can't assume in MMO.

But here is my question:

Why would a BiS great weapon fighter wear Transcendent Shadowclad knowing how broken permastealth it is? Broken in the same way as cowardice ring but worse. GWF already about the most facetanky dps class in the game, the only class I can't kill solo, but that is not enough you and some other GWFs choose to hide behind a broken curtain of the only perfect stealth in game and/or ambush ring too? Is the annoying permastealth really worth the potential loss of respect from other players? Why?

romanpimp

If anyone ask me 1 vs 1 i put elven or nega. Don't see any problem with it and i did many time. I am enjoing shadow rolling vs trs/ops/dcs/gfs/hrs that broken in their unique ways. How about that? Just for you slot nega?Lol Its even not interesting and exiting fight you 1 vs 1 so no point. Respect other players because of shadow? That's lol as well. Do i really need it? Who knows me very well respect me no fcking matter what. Till all that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> around me in pvp i will use every possible opportunity to counter it( broken, half broken or not ) good enough?

zeusom

Dunno. Asked several GWFs and they say things like "I wear it to win of course" or "I didnt make the ambush ring stupid" or "GWF is underpowered and needs it" or whatever reason.

Just, if something is clearly not working as intended, clearly broken according to the tooltip, and broken to the point that playing against someone using it is not fun at all is just stupid feeling because you cant even see them (ambush, shadowclad) to hit back or your pushed and rooted against a wall (cowardice), then it makes a clownshow out of pvp and I think takes legitimacy out of any winning/killing/surviving... basically, knowingly willingly cheating.

canmann

zeusom said:

Just, if something is clearly not working as intended, clearly broken according to the tooltip, and broken to the point that playing against someone using it is not fun at all is just stupid feeling because you cant even see them (ambush, shadowclad) to hit back or your pushed and rooted against a wall (cowardice), then it makes a clownshow out of pvp and I think takes legitimacy out of any winning/killing/surviving... basically, knowingly willingly cheating.

Again spoken from a person in guild that is using the Shadowclad enchant as we speak....

romanpimp

> @zeusom said:
> Dunno. Asked several GWFs and they say things like "I wear it to win of course" or "I didnt make the ambush ring stupid" or "GWF is underpowered and needs it" or whatever reason.
>
> Just, if something is clearly not working as intended, clearly broken according to the tooltip, and broken to the point that playing against someone using it is not fun at all is just stupid feeling because you cant even see them (ambush, shadowclad) to hit back or your pushed and rooted against a wall (cowardice), then it makes a clownshow out of pvp and I think takes
legitimacy out of any winning/killing/surviving... basically, knowingly willingly cheating.

Dude i got it. It's not fun at all. Like it's not fun to start the game, sprint right away from the first minute to the enemy node and being 1 shoted from nowhere. 234k SE hit with GF buff. That's the record so far. Trough sprint or unstop. So i found shadow extremely effective vs all broken unbalanced things. And i don't really give a fck about all cries around shadow in current state of pvp.

zeusom

canmann said:

Again spoken from a person in guild that is using the Shadowclad enchant as we speak....

Man are you smoking cornhusk? Never used that Shadowcrap enchant.
Tested for 5min once and how broken it is, never used again.