I didn't say don't do it but know that you will be banned because, as I said, it is a malicious action. You may absolutely feel wronged but if you charge back you will be closing the door.
Look up the rules for chargebacks and consider the legal defintion of fraud. If you watch any court shows you will always see people sue for emotional distress or defamation of character but while anything which would land you in court would be emotionally distressing there is a very specific legal definition to emotional distress and defamation of character which most people that sue for it do not fall under.
A change in a service is not fraud and if you became disatisfied after the purchase that would fall under buyer's remorse. False advertising, taking payments without your permission....etc. would be fraud. Feel free to consult your legal counsel in the matter but using a service without knowing the laws that govern them is not a wise decision.
Hence why I do not want people to simply tell others to issue a charge-back as there is more to it than deciding you are unhappy with a service. I am not saying I am right in saying there was no fraud; that is still up to you all as individuals to decide, but do not suggest others to follow that course haphazardly.
And as an additional note I did nothing. I am just a player with a special title for volunteering my spare time. I'm not paid by Cryptic whatsoever.
what rules someone breaks if he order a chargeback? to deserve a ban ....
Isn't that what Cryptic has done? Or at least one way of saying it. Cryptic offered something quite specific (a certain virtual good), even promised additionally in a forum message quoted in this thread that it would remain available in a certain way at a certain price... and then removed it.
And as an additional note I did nothing. I am just a player with a special title for volunteering my spare time. I'm not paid by Cryptic whatsoever.
Yes yes, that point was also made in this thread, and is worth keeping in mind, I think: Even the paid non-executive employees of Cryptic, and surely everyone we interact with in this thread, are not the people who hold the decision responsibility, and ire is not (or should not be) intended for them. But people have also made it clear that they want to know that the true decision makers are getting the message.
Kreatyve, as you said backlogged, then programmer team should realized they created bottleneck so that no one else were able to get zen trade for excessive amount of diamonds. real players are grinding and getting point of becoming burnout while others are cheating with 3rd party bot programs as they are not "offically" playing, all the profits went to bot users because ARC and cryptic are losing big time. real players are tired and bot-users never get tired because they are not at the keyboard, but often monitoring, and they dont get burnout, often rotate with other person monitoring.
you need to let them know to find another way to break down the wall of backlogs and bottlenecking.
my solution is to discuss about 3rd party hunter program, find the unapproved program and ban them, other 3rd party must register with ARC/Cryptic if they are good programs for disabled players, voice-translator chat for heaing impaireds, and few other tools that really help them playing.
botting isnt intended, they are just using the code while not playing and making huge profits far faster than zen market micro-management trying to make profits, and they are getting outsell by bots and the price is meaningless for them as long they still making money, instead PWE are losing.
2nd solutions, making economy system overhaul to eliminate those who breaks EULA and CoC agreement contracts. so they cant sell anything, but reset some items restricted for a new trading format. reset auction house would help, that also will eliminate some excessive junks that no one buys.
answers for currencies.
golds for consumables (kits, professions, potions, and reagents), those prices have to be reduce.
diamonds (wonderous bazzaar) for refine stones, marks, gems, and both runes and enchants.
Talumine Bars for new companions plus upgrade tokens, mounts, appearances, and dyes, and time-cycled CTA event items.
Seals for armor and weapons, restricted buying cap so other players dont overpriced or undercutting.
and Invoking format need a full overhaul. Ardent and Celestial tokens. it is so outdated since mod 2/mod 3.
Ardent need few more new items, new special pets and something we can upgrade with.
Celestial need a new cap number raised, trying to get wards it too few and it is almost insulting with low end chances. i think 25 or 55 would be high end cap, i wouldnt mind using up 50 tokens for C-wards and P-wards better chance way better than current version of those celestail chests we have, think of "Epic/Legendary" blessing chests. i am sure many players want better blessing rewards and no more roadblocks to game progressions, and still get one shot once in a month.
finally, the Zen market, it need full overhaul format, stopping the backlog with diamonds/zen would be "Priority", and end once and for all, it could expand a special talumine bar market only unique available thru zen market, and special daimonds menu. the prices must be "acceptable" to both players and cryptic agent reps, the more the players like the cost, more they will spend. it is win-win for both parties. Zen would still sells many classic zen items. Profession packs, elite Mounts, elite Companions, account services (bank, slots, bags, and characters), expansion packs, and special class package.
I didn't say don't do it but know that you will be banned because, as I said, it is a malicious action. You may absolutely feel wronged but if you charge back you will be closing the door.
Look up the rules for chargebacks and consider the legal defintion of fraud. If you watch any court shows you will always see people sue for emotional distress or defamation of character but while anything which would land you in court would be emotionally distressing there is a very specific legal definition to emotional distress and defamation of character which most people that sue for it do not fall under.
A change in a service is not fraud and if you became disatisfied after the purchase that would fall under buyer's remorse. False advertising, taking payments without your permission....etc. would be fraud. Feel free to consult your legal counsel in the matter but using a service without knowing the laws that govern them is not a wise decision.
Hence why I do not want people to simply tell others to issue a charge-back as there is more to it than deciding you are unhappy with a service. I am not saying I am right in saying there was no fraud; that is still up to you all as individuals to decide, but do not suggest others to follow that course haphazardly.
And as an additional note I did nothing. I am just a player with a special title for volunteering my spare time. I'm not paid by Cryptic whatsoever.
Since you asked for it:
Full Definition of fraud
1 a : deceit, trickery; specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right b : an act of deceiving or misrepresenting : trick
2 a : a person who is not what he or she pretends to be : impostor; also : one who defrauds : cheat b : one that is not what it seems or is represented to be
Myself, and many others, see Cryptic's actions over the last several months as being deceptive at best and greed induced fraud at the worst. You can try to couch the recent change to the TB as a "simple change of service"; however, when you offer a service for real money and then change the service that was paid for it becomes nothing more than a simple a bait switch tactic commonly used by Con-Artists.
The proper response would be for the Game managers to man up, admit their mistake, and offer VIP refunds for those who wish them due to the change. In lieu of that, chargebacks are an appropriate response by the players who feel Cryptic has wronged them. The threat of a perma-ban from Cryptic games only hurts the company in the long run as it one/multiple streams of income that the company will never recapture.
I feel like I have been defrauded, the only reason I purchased VIP and ranked it up to 12 was the keys and discounted prices and the Taurmalane Bars I would earn with said keys to finally make gems and wards affordable.
Now gems and wards are gone and it makes me wonder whats next? Is Cryptic going to come out and say "Oh sorry guys, keys are imbalancing the economy so we are removing those... and btw the reduced prices are ruining the ecomomy so that has to go too"...
I fully expect this too happen soon, given the track record.
I believe the ONLY solution is for Cryptic to revert BACK to the way it was or they will lose a MASSIVE portion of their spenders... rapidly.
Kreatyve, as you said backlogged, then programmer team should realized they created bottleneck so that no one else were able to get zen trade for excessive amount of diamonds. real players are grinding and getting point of becoming burnout while others are cheating with 3rd party bot programs as they are not "offically" playing, all the profits went to bot users because ARC and cryptic are losing big time. real players are tired and bot-users never get tired because they are not at the keyboard, but often monitoring, and they dont get burnout, often rotate with other person monitoring.
you need to let them know to find another way to break down the wall of backlogs and bottlenecking.
my solution is to discuss about 3rd party hunter program, find the unapproved program and ban them, other 3rd party must register with ARC/Cryptic if they are good programs for disabled players, voice-translator chat for heaing impaireds, and few other tools that really help them playing.
botting isnt intended, they are just using the code while not playing and making huge profits far faster than zen market micro-management trying to make profits, and they are getting outsell by bots and the price is meaningless for them as long they still making money, instead PWE are losing.
2nd solutions, making economy system overhaul to eliminate those who breaks EULA and CoC agreement contracts. so they cant sell anything, but reset some items restricted for a new trading format. reset auction house would help, that also will eliminate some excessive junks that no one buys.
answers for currencies.
golds for consumables (kits, professions, potions, and reagents), those prices have to be reduce.
diamonds (wonderous bazzaar) for refine stones, marks, gems, and both runes and enchants.
Talumine Bars for new companions plus upgrade tokens, mounts, appearances, and dyes, and time-cycled CTA event items.
Seals for armor and weapons, restricted buying cap so other players dont overpriced or undercutting.
and Invoking format need a full overhaul. Ardent and Celestial tokens. it is so outdated since mod 2/mod 3.
Ardent need few more new items, new special pets and something we can upgrade with.
Celestial need a new cap number raised, trying to get wards it too few and it is almost insulting with low end chances. i think 25 or 55 would be high end cap, i wouldnt mind using up 50 tokens for C-wards and P-wards better chance way better than current version of those celestail chests we have, think of "Epic/Legendary" blessing chests. i am sure many players want better blessing rewards and no more roadblocks to game progressions, and still get one shot once in a month.
finally, the Zen market, it need full overhaul format, stopping the backlog with diamonds/zen would be "Priority", and end once and for all, it could expand a special talumine bar market only unique available thru zen market, and special daimonds menu. the prices must be "acceptable" to both players and cryptic agent reps, the more the players like the cost, more they will spend. it is win-win for both parties. Zen would still sells many classic zen items. Profession packs, elite Mounts, elite Companions, account services (bank, slots, bags, and characters), expansion packs, and special class package.
let me know what you think?
The devs fixed the bottleneck by removing AD from Leadership, as it appears to have been a major cause of the backlog.
As for the rest of it, I don't see them doing a massive overhaul of the economy any time soon. They are making small changes at a time, and keeping an eye on what happens over a period of time.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
I didn't say don't do it but know that you will be banned because, as I said, it is a malicious action. You may absolutely feel wronged but if you charge back you will be closing the door.
Look up the rules for chargebacks and consider the legal defintion of fraud. If you watch any court shows you will always see people sue for emotional distress or defamation of character but while anything which would land you in court would be emotionally distressing there is a very specific legal definition to emotional distress and defamation of character which most people that sue for it do not fall under.
A change in a service is not fraud and if you became disatisfied after the purchase that would fall under buyer's remorse. False advertising, taking payments without your permission....etc. would be fraud. Feel free to consult your legal counsel in the matter but using a service without knowing the laws that govern them is not a wise decision.
Hence why I do not want people to simply tell others to issue a charge-back as there is more to it than deciding you are unhappy with a service. I am not saying I am right in saying there was no fraud; that is still up to you all as individuals to decide, but do not suggest others to follow that course haphazardly.
And as an additional note I did nothing. I am just a player with a special title for volunteering my spare time. I'm not paid by Cryptic whatsoever.
what rules someone breaks if he order a chargeback? to deserve a ban ....
If you do a chargeback, you're saying "this charge was fraudulent". The game company knows it's not trying to defraud you, which leaves two possibilities: identity theft (it's not your game account and the account holder was using your stolen CC data) or the chargeback was not legitimate (the case you describe). In both cases, the safest course of action is to ban the account, since there is a high likelihood of more chargebacks. And CC companies strongly penalize merchants for chargebacks, so there is a strong incentive to avoid them.
24.5 If you claim a chargeback for any reason, we have the right to investigate and dispute such chargeback. If we believe that your chargeback requirement is spurious, unreasonable, or invalid, we may take the dispute to court. If your chargeback is deemed invalid in court, you agree to pay for all fees and costs resulting from the disputed chargeback, including but not limited to legal fees and expenses, damages, monies lost due to non-operation, and chargeback fees, or if applicable mandatory law dictates otherwise, to the maximum amount permitted.
So it's just a bad idea in general, and could end up costing you a LOT more money in the end.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
I didn't say don't do it but know that you will be banned because, as I said, it is a malicious action. You may absolutely feel wronged but if you charge back you will be closing the door.
Look up the rules for chargebacks and consider the legal defintion of fraud. If you watch any court shows you will always see people sue for emotional distress or defamation of character but while anything which would land you in court would be emotionally distressing there is a very specific legal definition to emotional distress and defamation of character which most people that sue for it do not fall under.
A change in a service is not fraud and if you became disatisfied after the purchase that would fall under buyer's remorse. False advertising, taking payments without your permission....etc. would be fraud. Feel free to consult your legal counsel in the matter but using a service without knowing the laws that govern them is not a wise decision.
Hence why I do not want people to simply tell others to issue a charge-back as there is more to it than deciding you are unhappy with a service. I am not saying I am right in saying there was no fraud; that is still up to you all as individuals to decide, but do not suggest others to follow that course haphazardly.
And as an additional note I did nothing. I am just a player with a special title for volunteering my spare time. I'm not paid by Cryptic whatsoever.
what rules someone breaks if he order a chargeback? to deserve a ban ....
If you do a chargeback, you're saying "this charge was fraudulent". The game company knows it's not trying to defraud you, which leaves two possibilities: identity theft (it's not your game account and the account holder was using your stolen CC data) or the chargeback was not legitimate (the case you describe). In both cases, the safest course of action is to ban the account, since there is a high likelihood of more chargebacks. And CC companies strongly penalize merchants for chargebacks, so there is a strong incentive to avoid them.
24.5 If you claim a chargeback for any reason, we have the right to investigate and dispute such chargeback. If we believe that your chargeback requirement is spurious, unreasonable, or invalid, we may take the dispute to court. If your chargeback is deemed invalid in court, you agree to pay for all fees and costs resulting from the disputed chargeback, including but not limited to legal fees and expenses, damages, monies lost due to non-operation, and chargeback fees, or if applicable mandatory law dictates otherwise, to the maximum amount permitted.
So it's just a bad idea in general, and could end up costing you a LOT more money in the end.
I will speak from experience here, anytime... Anytime you run a chargeback against an online game your account will be permanetly banned. No if's and's or but's. The likelyhood of you getting your account reinstated after a chargeback is basically zero.
In the U.S online gamers have next to no rights whatsoever. The ToS and RoC state emphatically that you do not "own" you account OR characters on the account.
It is downright draconian if you ask me. Its the one service where we the consumer have almost no recourse. All the power resides with the game company.
If I were (and am) one of the many people very angry about these changes, I would def not reccomend a chargeback, ever.
We all vote with our wallets, so dont spend any money, go to social media and forums and lobby for a change to this. That is our only power. To say loundly and everywhere that we DO NOT accept these changes, that we are not stupid and know exactly WHY the changes were made and that we wont pay again unless Cryptic backs off.
Would always recommend requesting a refund first. As no one from Cryptic has come out stated they would give a refund if requested, and no players have posted that they have received a refund they have requested over this change, you have left the player base no option but to presume that no refunds have been/are being given out. The customer would have every right to request a charge-back if a refund was refused.
Just remember that the people Cryptic take to court have the same rights to pursue Cryptic for legal fees, lost wages for being in court, and any other monies that their lawyers can justify if they win their case. Would love to see the discovery process if Cryptic actually does take someone to court over a charge-back...just to see how many other customers did the same thing.
The simple mention of possible legal action against customers who chose/choose this option be put forth on these boards makes me wonder how large the number has already become.
No one in their right mind would commit $10,000s of dollars in corporate legal fees over $100 of in-game currency. It is exceeding rare for a corporation to win against an individual, and it is a PR nightmare to be "the company that sues its users over petty grievances".
On the other side, who in their right mind is going to spend the weeks of time and $1000s of dollars in private legal fees to pursue a corporation over something so trivial as a video game? For a court to award either side compensation for legal fees requires the case to be unquestionably one-sided, and this one is not.
When it comes down to it, they didn't modify VIP. it still gives exactly what was promised. You still get your lockbox keys, lockboxes still have the same things they did before. Some of the things inside have a different relative value now (I say relative because objectively, they're virtual and have zero cash value). R7 enchants aren't as valuable as when VIP started...neither are trade bars...but you still get them, just as promised. It was, however, a complete HAMSTER-move on PWE's part, so people are rightly pissed.
(The preceding is an opinion, and shall not be construed as legal advice, because providing legal advice incurs a fiduciary responsibility.)
Cryptic's business practices are deceitful and underhanded. They run sales on things to try to ensnare players before they do something truly evil so a player might think twice about leaving their new investment. They have done this every single time they knew they were looking at yet another mass exodus of players due to a cash grab disguised as a market correction or "anti-bot" measure. What they do is sneaky and wrong, but unfortunately lawful (as they write the laws you agree to in the ToS by playing). As a great movie once said so brilliantly, the only way to win the game is not to play.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
I said research the legal definition of fraud is. The definition of a word and the legal definition are completely different as per my example.
I'll repeat it: any time you are are being sued in court you are going to be emotionally distressed. If the word definition of emotionally distressed was the legal definition then everybody would win that lawsuit. Fortunately there are specific legal definitions so that people may not demand compensation for emotional distress when they are flicked in the head and are shocked, physically pained and humiliated.
Seek actual legal counsel if you so wish. I'm not asking for anybody to post what they believe the legal definition is I am asking for you to make that decision after you educate yourself and do not try to encourage others to make such a decision based on your claims as there are legal ramifications for misusing the charge-back service as well as the fact it will result in a user being banned from all PWE/Cryptic services.
That is not a debate so this is where this discussion stops. Educate yourself if you wish to use a charge-back but do not encourage others to use it haphazardly.
I said research the legal definition of fraud is. The definition of a word and the legal definition are completely different as per my example.
I'll repeat it: any time you are are being sued in court you are going to be emotionally distressed. If the word definition of emotionally distressed was the legal definition then everybody would win that lawsuit. Fortunately there are specific legal definitions so that people may not demand compensation for emotional distress when they are flicked in the head and are shocked, physically pained and humiliated.
Seek actual legal counsel if you so wish. I'm not asking for anybody to post what they believe the legal definition is I am asking for you to make that decision after you educate yourself and do not try to encourage others to make such a decision based on your claims as there are legal ramifications for misusing the charge-back service as well as the fact it will result in a user being banned from all PWE/Cryptic services.
That is not a debate so this is where this discussion stops. Educate yourself if you wish to use a charge-back but do not encourage others to use it haphazardly.
There are legal ramifications if you 'knowingly' commit to a charge back for fraudulent reasons. It is very hard to prove in court that one 'knowingly' commited fraud in a charge back unless you have told someone or said out loud in a deposition that you did the chargeback "because such and such did something that wasnt fair or I didn't agree with" etc.
That being said, what ambisinisterr has advised is actually sound advice. Anyone who read the previous poster telling you to run chargebacks is giving horrid advice, advice which that poster probably won't do him/herself. You will lose your account for good if you try to do a chargeback against any MMO service provider... you might get some of your money back... might. The consequences being all the work and time you put into your character(s) will go poof, never to be returned to you again.
If we as a community stick together on this and let our displeasure known in a constructive and non threatening manner then we have a good chance of getting a return to what we all assumed was here to stay.
*snipped* If we as a community stick together on this and let our displeasure known in a constructive and non threatening manner then we have a good chance of getting a return to what we all assumed was here to stay.
You make the mistake of believing Cryptic cares one iota about anything the community has to say. They've made it painfully clear such is just not the case.
Just peruse the long standing threads of the countless in game issues, issues which have not been addressed (and most likely never will be), and you'll understand why the community has no faith that anything that does not directly line the pockets of Cryptic will ever be considered by them to be an 'issue'.
i agreed, dont do chargeback, otherwise, it is very risky to lose account. dont listen to other saying go ahead.
just educate yourself with questions, ask your friends if they are in lawyer department if you knew, and get some advice with pro and con before you decide.
if you have other games seriously invested, then dont do it.
it just because other posters (mean and stonecold) want you to lose, all the accounts you have. hmm, no thanks, other form of peer pressure and being "griefed".
all we can do by not spending anymore, just being patience, they will still get money from big wallet whales, it will be a slow market and will hurt the most. when they throwing 2x refine point event and no cash flow or barely not enough, they will have to find right prices and keep the promises to never repeat bait and switch ever again, many more will leave, guilds will be shattered and friends will be lost for good.
this is second time with bad changes and too soon, do again, game will die.
other players from other game are upset with "Arch" by T, same bad decisions, drove away many loyal players, and later i got offer to play for free, but i double checked with other websites, too much negativities make me avoid to download. what i read it was vile and vulgar upset posts, also they allow bot programs run uncontrollable.
Too many people make idle and pointless threats on the Internet this forum is no different there is unquestionably much Ire (as I have expressed)at what was done (justifiable). The reality is best practice would be spend no more money until they rectify it or quit. Xbox live players have a different route and are fortunate in that regard, Barrack room lawyers do not help the individual player in either direction, and rightly, proper legal advice will not be found on here (nor should it as it would compromise the company's position if it did ever come to that.
Rarely for me, I am with the mods on this single aspect of this fiasco, stop making pointless posts on a matter that will likely never truly occur.
Grind 36k per day 24/7 doesn't sound like a real, normal, intelligent gamer, but more of an addict that would do crazy stuff to other people. consider what you are doing here, either you have to re-evaluate your IQ or you need referral to a psychiatrist.
You know.. i really tried being nice to you. I even went out of my way not to insult you in any way.
But obviously you are not capable of doing the same thing. Since you do not seem like a serious player but more of a perky ,weekend player, who plays only out of boredom, then we have nothing more to talk about. I do not want to insult the serious weekend players in any way ,ofc, so please do not take it like that.
I wish you all well. But do not quote me any more. It is bothersome.
With best regards,
Post edited by araneax on
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minotaur2857Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,141Arc User
I said research the legal definition of fraud is. The definition of a word and the legal definition are completely different as per my example.
I'll repeat it: any time you are are being sued in court you are going to be emotionally distressed. If the word definition of emotionally distressed was the legal definition then everybody would win that lawsuit. Fortunately there are specific legal definitions so that people may not demand compensation for emotional distress when they are flicked in the head and are shocked, physically pained and humiliated.
Seek actual legal counsel if you so wish. I'm not asking for anybody to post what they believe the legal definition is I am asking for you to make that decision after you educate yourself and do not try to encourage others to make such a decision based on your claims as there are legal ramifications for misusing the charge-back service as well as the fact it will result in a user being banned from all PWE/Cryptic services.
That is not a debate so this is where this discussion stops. Educate yourself if you wish to use a charge-back but do not encourage others to use it haphazardly.
I'm fully aware of the ramifications of issuing a chargeback which is why I'm seeing what happens first (up to the 6 month limit), but this is now the third textbook example of what would be bait and switch fraud if it happened in the real world (most people would only have seen 2, I fell foul of some incompetent programming and even more incompetent support not fixing it).
Also legal systems vary, where you are may have a substantial effect on whether you have a claim and the EU in particular has some interesting stuff around unfair terms and conditions which could well bust the EULA, but this is all theoretical, as it's very unlikely anybody would put their head above the parapet and spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars pursuing a few hundred or low thousands.
And for all those who say, just grind AD and convert to Zen... what happens when they disable the AD to Zen part of the exchange. They have done it before, they can do it again.
Care to elaborate? When exactly we were not able to exchange AD to ZEN ?
Back before mod 6, you could change Zen into AD, but every time I went to look to do AD into Zen that function seemed to be closed. Maybe I was wrong...
ZAX was always there, it was just clogged by a huge backlog - this will never happen. We do not have that amount of AD in the in game economy and we do not have - nor we ever will - have that number of players.
Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based? 2). Yes. I am panzer! 3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen. 4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
I said research the legal definition of fraud is. The definition of a word and the legal definition are completely different as per my example.
I'll repeat it: any time you are are being sued in court you are going to be emotionally distressed. If the word definition of emotionally distressed was the legal definition then everybody would win that lawsuit. Fortunately there are specific legal definitions so that people may not demand compensation for emotional distress when they are flicked in the head and are shocked, physically pained and humiliated.
Seek actual legal counsel if you so wish. I'm not asking for anybody to post what they believe the legal definition is I am asking for you to make that decision after you educate yourself and do not try to encourage others to make such a decision based on your claims as there are legal ramifications for misusing the charge-back service as well as the fact it will result in a user being banned from all PWE/Cryptic services.
That is not a debate so this is where this discussion stops. Educate yourself if you wish to use a charge-back but do not encourage others to use it haphazardly.
I'm fully aware of the ramifications of issuing a chargeback which is why I'm seeing what happens first (up to the 6 month limit), but this is now the third textbook example of what would be bait and switch fraud if it happened in the real world (most people would only have seen 2, I fell foul of some incompetent programming and even more incompetent support not fixing it).
Also legal systems vary, where you are may have a substantial effect on whether you have a claim and the EU in particular has some interesting stuff around unfair terms and conditions which could well bust the EULA, but this is all theoretical, as it's very unlikely anybody would put their head above the parapet and spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars pursuing a few hundred or low thousands.
Indeed in the UK the "unfair contract terms act" is one way Eulas and contractual clauses get binned, however not going down that route following my post above
So from the discussion I'm gathering that issuing a charge-back will jeapordize your account standing. Last time I played Neverwinter, there where situations you could get a refund for items so I gather that PWE does not have a no refund policy in place and I know for a fact that this makes the customer's rights for a charge-back much more stringent.
Basically from what I'm gathering, by taking the stance of banning accounts for chargebacks that are issued by customers for what appear to be a service/product that was falsely advertised, PWE is in essence, blackmailing the customer. Furthermore, they know full well that most (if any) customers will actually implement counter measures against the ban (i.e. legal action).
On another note, as for the legal definition of fraud... take a look here:
This issue may not necessarily be PROVEN to be fraudulent, but I think we can all agree it is ethically deceitful and generally, a very poor way to treat customers.
I think we can all agree it is ethically deceitful and generally, a very poor way to treat customers.
I think this summarizes the prior 30 pages in a nice way.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
I don't recall them ever saying there would not be changes to the trade bar store as so many of you are claiming.
Changes will happen. It's an MMO. You may not like the changes or expect the changes but that does not constitute fraud.
Now you are certainly free to dislike the changes and make that known and you are free to request a refund although I have no idea if they would be willing to do so.
So again, seek legal counsel if you wish but know that accounts which issue a charge-back are banned. That is snot a practice you do towards a company or individual you wish to continue to do business with. It does more than simply forcibly remove the money from the hands of those you gave it to...
If you think this is unfair I encourage you to look up the ramifications for other companies. Steam for instance will ban your account until you reverse the charge-back. Apple will not ban your account from accessing existing purchases but you will never be able to use that account to purchase anything ever again.
Comments
real players are grinding and getting point of becoming burnout while others are cheating with 3rd party bot programs as they are not "offically" playing, all the profits went to bot users because ARC and cryptic are losing big time.
real players are tired and bot-users never get tired because they are not at the keyboard, but often monitoring, and they dont get burnout, often rotate with other person monitoring.
you need to let them know to find another way to break down the wall of backlogs and bottlenecking.
my solution is to discuss about 3rd party hunter program, find the unapproved program and ban them, other 3rd party must register with ARC/Cryptic if they are good programs for disabled players, voice-translator chat for heaing impaireds, and few other tools that really help them playing.
botting isnt intended, they are just using the code while not playing and making huge profits far faster than zen market micro-management trying to make profits, and they are getting outsell by bots and the price is meaningless for them as long they still making money, instead PWE are losing.
2nd solutions, making economy system overhaul to eliminate those who breaks EULA and CoC agreement contracts. so they cant sell anything, but reset some items restricted for a new trading format.
reset auction house would help, that also will eliminate some excessive junks that no one buys.
answers for currencies.
golds for consumables (kits, professions, potions, and reagents), those prices have to be reduce.
diamonds (wonderous bazzaar) for refine stones, marks, gems, and both runes and enchants.
Talumine Bars for new companions plus upgrade tokens, mounts, appearances, and dyes, and time-cycled CTA event items.
Seals for armor and weapons, restricted buying cap so other players dont overpriced or undercutting.
and Invoking format need a full overhaul.
Ardent and Celestial tokens. it is so outdated since mod 2/mod 3.
Ardent need few more new items, new special pets and something we can upgrade with.
Celestial need a new cap number raised, trying to get wards it too few and it is almost insulting with low end chances. i think 25 or 55 would be high end cap, i wouldnt mind using up 50 tokens for C-wards and P-wards better chance way better than current version of those celestail chests we have, think of "Epic/Legendary" blessing chests.
i am sure many players want better blessing rewards and no more roadblocks to game progressions, and still get one shot once in a month.
finally, the Zen market, it need full overhaul format, stopping the backlog with diamonds/zen would be "Priority", and end once and for all, it could expand a special talumine bar market only unique available thru zen market, and special daimonds menu.
the prices must be "acceptable" to both players and cryptic agent reps, the more the players like the cost, more they will spend. it is win-win for both parties.
Zen would still sells many classic zen items.
Profession packs, elite Mounts, elite Companions, account services (bank, slots, bags, and characters), expansion packs, and special class package.
let me know what you think?
Full Definition of fraud
1
a : deceit, trickery; specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right b : an act of deceiving or misrepresenting : trick
2
a : a person who is not what he or she pretends to be : impostor; also : one who defrauds : cheat b : one that is not what it seems or is represented to be
Myself, and many others, see Cryptic's actions over the last several months as being deceptive at best and greed induced fraud at the worst. You can try to couch the recent change to the TB as a "simple change of service"; however, when you offer a service for real money and then change the service that was paid for it becomes nothing more than a simple a bait switch tactic commonly used by Con-Artists.
The proper response would be for the Game managers to man up, admit their mistake, and offer VIP refunds for those who wish them due to the change. In lieu of that, chargebacks are an appropriate response by the players who feel Cryptic has wronged them. The threat of a perma-ban from Cryptic games only hurts the company in the long run as it one/multiple streams of income that the company will never recapture.
Now gems and wards are gone and it makes me wonder whats next? Is Cryptic going to come out and say "Oh sorry guys, keys are imbalancing the economy so we are removing those... and btw the reduced prices are ruining the ecomomy so that has to go too"...
I fully expect this too happen soon, given the track record.
I believe the ONLY solution is for Cryptic to revert BACK to the way it was or they will lose a MASSIVE portion of their spenders... rapidly.
I see they also just announced a 15% off enchanted keys weekend...perhaps this is a test of whether they just drove their spenders away.
As for the rest of it, I don't see them doing a massive overhaul of the economy any time soon. They are making small changes at a time, and keeping an eye on what happens over a period of time.
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
Also - from the ToS: So it's just a bad idea in general, and could end up costing you a LOT more money in the end.
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
I will speak from experience here, anytime... Anytime you run a chargeback against an online game your account will be permanetly banned. No if's and's or but's. The likelyhood of you getting your account reinstated after a chargeback is basically zero.
In the U.S online gamers have next to no rights whatsoever. The ToS and RoC state emphatically that you do not "own" you account OR characters on the account.
It is downright draconian if you ask me. Its the one service where we the consumer have almost no recourse. All the power resides with the game company.
If I were (and am) one of the many people very angry about these changes, I would def not reccomend a chargeback, ever.
We all vote with our wallets, so dont spend any money, go to social media and forums and lobby for a change to this. That is our only power. To say loundly and everywhere that we DO NOT accept these changes, that we are not stupid and know exactly WHY the changes were made and that we wont pay again unless Cryptic backs off.
Thats the only recourse we have.
Just remember that the people Cryptic take to court have the same rights to pursue Cryptic for legal fees, lost wages for being in court, and any other monies that their lawyers can justify if they win their case. Would love to see the discovery process if Cryptic actually does take someone to court over a charge-back...just to see how many other customers did the same thing.
The simple mention of possible legal action against customers who chose/choose this option be put forth on these boards makes me wonder how large the number has already become.
It is exceeding rare for a corporation to win against an individual, and it is a PR nightmare to be "the company that sues its users over petty grievances".
On the other side, who in their right mind is going to spend the weeks of time and $1000s of dollars in private legal fees to pursue a corporation over something so trivial as a video game? For a court to award either side compensation for legal fees requires the case to be unquestionably one-sided, and this one is not.
When it comes down to it, they didn't modify VIP. it still gives exactly what was promised. You still get your lockbox keys, lockboxes still have the same things they did before. Some of the things inside have a different relative value now (I say relative because objectively, they're virtual and have zero cash value). R7 enchants aren't as valuable as when VIP started...neither are trade bars...but you still get them, just as promised. It was, however, a complete HAMSTER-move on PWE's part, so people are rightly pissed.
(The preceding is an opinion, and shall not be construed as legal advice, because providing legal advice incurs a fiduciary responsibility.)
I'll repeat it: any time you are are being sued in court you are going to be emotionally distressed. If the word definition of emotionally distressed was the legal definition then everybody would win that lawsuit. Fortunately there are specific legal definitions so that people may not demand compensation for emotional distress when they are flicked in the head and are shocked, physically pained and humiliated.
Seek actual legal counsel if you so wish. I'm not asking for anybody to post what they believe the legal definition is I am asking for you to make that decision after you educate yourself and do not try to encourage others to make such a decision based on your claims as there are legal ramifications for misusing the charge-back service as well as the fact it will result in a user being banned from all PWE/Cryptic services.
That is not a debate so this is where this discussion stops. Educate yourself if you wish to use a charge-back but do not encourage others to use it haphazardly.
That being said, what ambisinisterr has advised is actually sound advice. Anyone who read the previous poster telling you to run chargebacks is giving horrid advice, advice which that poster probably won't do him/herself. You will lose your account for good if you try to do a chargeback against any MMO service provider... you might get some of your money back... might. The consequences being all the work and time you put into your character(s) will go poof, never to be returned to you again.
If we as a community stick together on this and let our displeasure known in a constructive and non threatening manner then we have a good chance of getting a return to what we all assumed was here to stay.
Just peruse the long standing threads of the countless in game issues, issues which have not been addressed (and most likely never will be), and you'll understand why the community has no faith that anything that does not directly line the pockets of Cryptic will ever be considered by them to be an 'issue'.
dont listen to other saying go ahead.
just educate yourself with questions, ask your friends if they are in lawyer department if you knew, and get some advice with pro and con before you decide.
if you have other games seriously invested, then dont do it.
it just because other posters (mean and stonecold) want you to lose, all the accounts you have. hmm, no thanks, other form of peer pressure and being "griefed".
all we can do by not spending anymore, just being patience, they will still get money from big wallet whales, it will be a slow market and will hurt the most.
when they throwing 2x refine point event and no cash flow or barely not enough, they will have to find right prices and keep the promises to never repeat bait and switch ever again, many more will leave, guilds will be shattered and friends will be lost for good.
this is second time with bad changes and too soon, do again, game will die.
other players from other game are upset with "Arch" by T, same bad decisions, drove away many loyal players, and later i got offer to play for free, but i double checked with other websites, too much negativities make me avoid to download. what i read it was vile and vulgar upset posts, also they allow bot programs run uncontrollable.
Rarely for me, I am with the mods on this single aspect of this fiasco, stop making pointless posts on a matter that will likely never truly occur.
I even went out of my way not to insult you in any way.
But obviously you are not capable of doing the same thing.
Since you do not seem like a serious player but more of a perky ,weekend player, who plays only out of boredom, then we have nothing more to talk about. I do not want to insult the serious weekend players in any way ,ofc, so please do not take it like that.
I wish you all well. But do not quote me any more. It is bothersome.
With best regards,
Also legal systems vary, where you are may have a substantial effect on whether you have a claim and the EU in particular has some interesting stuff around unfair terms and conditions which could well bust the EULA, but this is all theoretical, as it's very unlikely anybody would put their head above the parapet and spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars pursuing a few hundred or low thousands.
A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
2). Yes. I am panzer!
3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
Basically from what I'm gathering, by taking the stance of banning accounts for chargebacks that are issued by customers for what appear to be a service/product that was falsely advertised, PWE is in essence, blackmailing the customer. Furthermore, they know full well that most (if any) customers will actually implement counter measures against the ban (i.e. legal action).
On another note, as for the legal definition of fraud... take a look here:
definitions.uslegal.com/f/fraud/
This issue may not necessarily be PROVEN to be fraudulent, but I think we can all agree it is ethically deceitful and generally, a very poor way to treat customers.
Changes will happen. It's an MMO. You may not like the changes or expect the changes but that does not constitute fraud.
Now you are certainly free to dislike the changes and make that known and you are free to request a refund although I have no idea if they would be willing to do so.
So again, seek legal counsel if you wish but know that accounts which issue a charge-back are banned.
That is snot a practice you do towards a company or individual you wish to continue to do business with. It does more than simply forcibly remove the money from the hands of those you gave it to...
If you think this is unfair I encourage you to look up the ramifications for other companies. Steam for instance will ban your account until you reverse the charge-back. Apple will not ban your account from accessing existing purchases but you will never be able to use that account to purchase anything ever again.