I would say that I find it odd that we haven't heard jack from the devs or strum or really anyone in nearly a week and almost 40 pages of rage (many, many pages removed for, you know, reasons). I would say that, but as someone who has watched cryptic's head in the sand (or other less sanitary location of solitude) many times when making hugely unpopular decisions, this is par for the course.
They hope that it dies down, safe in the assumption that the casuals who spend without care or reason and don't come to the forums will still be there and the folks raging here will eventually give in and go back and join them. And the truly crappy thing is that if history tells us anything, they are probably right.
minotaur2857Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,141Arc User
edited February 2016
As far as I'm concerned this has largely killed any interest I have in this game. I have 14 level 70s and thought they had the economy pretty much right just before this change. So much so that I spent what for me is a considerable amount of money in the black Friday sale. One of the things I bought was VIP to get me to this year's black Friday. I feel conned, a substantial part of that decision was based on the wards that the bars made available.
What do the players want ? from what I can judge, the old dungeons back as epics and the ability to progress at a reasonable rate. What do we get ? More levelling dungeons that only people farming ADs on multiple alts ever do, and no chance to progress. I have 3 3200-3500 chars, gone is the chance to get any of them close to max, and to bring my 2200 that I'd earmarked as my next project up to that sort of level, it simply takes too long now. **edit** realised I missed out one of the important ones - new classes - we heard bard was coming between issues 8/9, well that didn't happen. My characters in P&P4E are druid, assassin, monk, psion, barbarian, none of which I can play here **edit**
Worse, we have a newish player in our guild, one character around 2K, no weapon/armor enchantments, rank 5s, how is he supposed to be able to gear up to even 2500 without dropping a lot of RM or spending months playing fairly casually.
I'll give these changes a few weeks to shake out with the new module coming out, but unless something changes dramatically it looks like time to charge back what I spent on black Friday and never have anything to do with Cryptic again, which is particularly hard for me to do as I played City of Heroes for 8+ years which was a Cryptic game till they sold it, and gave me my best MMO experiences.
Do they really think this will just go away? Just like that? To be honest last time people raged, it last for a week and a half, then people grew tired of waiting for a reply. They quit or they just left the forums. Like i did.. got sick of waiting for any kind of change. Ofc it did not happen. Just like it will not happen now.
And for all those who say, just grind AD and convert to Zen... what happens when they disable the AD to Zen part of the exchange. They have done it before, they can do it again.
Care to elaborate? When exactly we were not able to exchange AD to ZEN ?
Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based? 2). Yes. I am panzer! 3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen. 4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
And for all those who say, just grind AD and convert to Zen... what happens when they disable the AD to Zen part of the exchange. They have done it before, they can do it again.
Care to elaborate? When exactly we were not able to exchange AD to ZEN ?
Maybe when there was a sudden flooding of the market with billions upon billions of new diamonds and Zen prices crashed? But they rolled it back up, so it should not be it.
I know there was a period of time when you had to wait for a few weeks to get your Zen... ? But the zax was still up and about. So that is not it as well.
Here's a quick call: If you're still lurking in this thread waiting for some kind of response, say "I".
Let me be the first: I
Yeah, still waiting, but not holding my breath.
Did anyone else note that they're doing a 2x refinement weekend? As if 2x refinement points will in any way meaningfully offset the more than doubled price of a coal ward. I have other choice words that would get this post deleted, so I'll leave it at that.
I mean, it's gonna crate endless balance problems when everyone just wanna be more powerful and that will ruin everyone's gaming experience. It's impossible for everyone to have tir 12 enchants anyhow, so isn't it probably better off for more people with tir 5 so that at least we can enjoy some exciting dungeon runs that really requires teamwork as well as fair pvps that doesn't just rely on gs? What's so bad about it when you start to think about others who spend less time and money here than you do? Without them you're gonna be there getting bullied by more powerful players. Quit being sentimental for cash grab, well you're paying them for your time and money to get lockboxes anyways, not me.
What's bad is the fact that people's experiences got altered AFTER they had already invested in it. If you don't understand what that means, this conversation no longer has a purpose.
I don't understand what that means. EVERYBODY knows how to adjust to changes, if you don't understand what that means, this conversation no longer has a purpose.
If VIP isn't about taking advantage over other players, I suggest the removal of TB discounts as well; just so it'll be more in line with your thoughts. (@mramarodan and @l0th4ri0)
Do not forget removing the Zen = AD trade. Removing all the shiny stuff from the trade bars merchant.
Heck i would even go with removing the lockbox keys of the VIP buyers. Just to " scale it " I mean it is not like they paid any real money for it, right?
Oh oh, while we are at it. I say making all of the epic dungeons level of entry to at least 3.5 k. and PVP to at least 4k .
Also no more wards from invoking chests as well! And no pres. wards. Actually they should make it 1000 zen for that as well.
No mounts ingame, except Zen market and lockboxes.. No dyes can be bought for AD or bars, just Zen market.
Removing all of the VIP " privileges " as well! That is always a good move! Right?
.... remind me if i missed anything.
In case someone did not get it, it is sarcasm. </3</p>
Easy buddy, it's a game. Does it worth to grind 10 hrs a day for VIP that you can make by working for 1 or 2 hours in the real world? Only the bot hacks and ddos-ers are not gonna be able to enjoy anything anymore, not a normal, intelligence gamer with common sense.
I am playing this game a longer period of time. It is just a game for you. But for some other people it is still something they invested time and real money into. And it really does not matter if we are talking about virtual non existing customer / buyers contract. Or anything else similar to fair conduct . A common player grinds and refines 36k a day. He farms his HAMSTER off, and pays for VIP for benefits in order to help himself out. He gives currencies out in order to help his guild and grinds that stupid edemo so his guild mates can finish their campaign before the new one starts. That is a real, normal, intelligent player. Who now has no choice but to spend 500 000 on auction house to buy 1 ward.
I n any case , it does not matter.
Grind 36k per day 24/7 doesn't sound like a real, normal, intelligent gamer, but more of an addict that would do crazy stuff to other people. consider what you are doing here, either you have to re-evaluate your IQ or you need referral to a psychiatrist.
PWE/Cryptic/NWO are obviously killing their own game by choice. They are probarbly having a ball watching it burn to the ground. Stop complaining guys, just movee on. It's hard,I know. You spent hours and money into it but we are acting like abused lovers.
"He beats you up and you go back to him. No matter how broken and bruised you get you still crawl back,why?"
'Well he is nice sometimes,look I even got a coalescent ward as a sorry gift.'
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,456Arc User
Here's a quick call: If you're still lurking in this thread waiting for some kind of response, say "I".
Let me be the first: I
Yeah, still waiting, but not holding my breath.
Did anyone else note that they're doing a 2x refinement weekend? As if 2x refinement points will in any way meaningfully offset the more than doubled price of a coal ward. I have other choice words that would get this post deleted, so I'll leave it at that.
I am not aware they are doing 2x refinement weekend. I think they are doing 2x Enchantment weekend.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
And for all those who say, just grind AD and convert to Zen... what happens when they disable the AD to Zen part of the exchange. They have done it before, they can do it again.
Care to elaborate? When exactly we were not able to exchange AD to ZEN ?
Back before mod 6, you could change Zen into AD, but every time I went to look to do AD into Zen that function seemed to be closed. Maybe I was wrong...
I have spent over a thousand dollars on this game, this is the final straw for me, no more money will i spend. To say I am frustrated is... i dont think there is a word in the english language for what I feel for how you guys treat us except AAAARRRRRRGGGGGG!!!!
I Bought up to VIP 12 and the free keys actually made me start buying key packs and saving trade bars, now the ONLY things i spend trade bars on are gone. SHAME, SHAME, SHAME!
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,456Arc User
And for all those who say, just grind AD and convert to Zen... what happens when they disable the AD to Zen part of the exchange. They have done it before, they can do it again.
Care to elaborate? When exactly we were not able to exchange AD to ZEN ?
Back before mod 6, you could change Zen into AD, but every time I went to look to do AD into Zen that function seemed to be closed. Maybe I was wrong...
Well, you were wrong.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
And for all those who say, just grind AD and convert to Zen... what happens when they disable the AD to Zen part of the exchange. They have done it before, they can do it again.
Care to elaborate? When exactly we were not able to exchange AD to ZEN ?
Back before mod 6, you could change Zen into AD, but every time I went to look to do AD into Zen that function seemed to be closed. Maybe I was wrong...
It wasn't closed, there was just an extremely long backlog where it took days, and sometimes weeks to get your Zen due to the fact that there was so much AD in the economy.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
IF you feel cheated you can issue a cash-back Via your bank, Paypal or Credit card for any Zen you used to buy Vip just before they announced the change, such short notice amounts to fraud or mis-representation of a service on their part since they made a prior promise the items in question would not be removed, and the excuse they give for the change is rubbish as they still have items in both the Zen and T-bar market.
Alternately flatly don't pay any cash in future and don't believe their lies.
Please do not advise people to issue a chargeback. Charge-backs exist to protect people from fraudulent charges. They are not supposed to be used instead of requesting a refund or to force a company to refund when they do not agree to it. Issuing a charge-back is a malicious action.
Malicious could seem like the wrong word but it is very accurate as charge-backs have various negative effects beyond just ripping money out of a company or person's hands. Charge-backs are not meant to be done towards a company you still wish to do business with so issuing a charge-back will result in your account being banned.
The best analogy I can think of is punching your friend in the stomach in order to get something you gave them back. You might get whatever you wanted back but the friendship will be over.
F2P Players are Content, Not Consumers. If you are not paying for something then you not a consumer you are a product to be sold. In this Case you provide what basic amounts to an autonomous NPC.
I have invested money in this game. VIP was one thing I bought, so I am not a F2P player. However, that being said, I no longer spend a dime on the game, because none of the countless issues raised by the community are ever addressed by the devs. I think we saw all we needed to see, when they finally have a live stream to allow players to speak with the devs, and Andy spends the whole time playing the game. For me, that summed up their total lack of commitment to fixing the numerous issues within the game.
Please do not advise people to issue a chargeback. (snip) The best analogy I can think of is punching your friend in the stomach in order to get something you gave them back. You might get whatever you wanted back but the friendship will be over.
Well it could be argued quite persuasively that this "friend" in your analogy punched the person first. Depending on how long they have been "friends", it could be said that there have been several punches. In sensitive areas.
But I will also encourage folks to not do chargebacks. Just learn your lesson, folks. Do not repeat the mistake you made.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,456Arc User
Yes, this friend sucker punched us with an Ironman glove a few times. Oh well ......
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Charge-backs exist to protect people from fraudulent charges.
There was a long discussion earlier in the thread surrounding the legal term "Fraud in the Inducement." I submit that many people feel that what you (Cryptic) have done is fraudulent.
They are not supposed to be used instead of requesting a refund ...
This is a good point -- requesting a refund should be a first step (I'd agree), and would also ultimately make a charge-back (if it's necessary) more effective.
If Cryptic actually /does/ give refunds, however, that would go a *long* way (imho) toward showing that they made a mistake(*) that they're sincerely trying to correct, rather than just following the blind disregard that so many have accused them of.
((*) that is -- a mistake in the entire set-up of their economy, which they're only slowly waking up to....)
IF you feel cheated you can issue a cash-back Via your bank, Paypal or Credit card for any Zen you used to buy Vip just before they announced the change, such short notice amounts to fraud or mis-representation of a service on their part since they made a prior promise the items in question would not be removed, and the excuse they give for the change is rubbish as they still have items in both the Zen and T-bar market.
Alternately flatly don't pay any cash in future and don't believe their lies.
Please do not advise people to issue a chargeback. Charge-backs exist to protect people from fraudulent charges. They are not supposed to be used instead of requesting a refund or to force a company to refund when they do not agree to it. Issuing a charge-back is a malicious action.
Malicious could seem like the wrong word but it is very accurate as charge-backs have various negative effects beyond just ripping money out of a company or person's hands. Charge-backs are not meant to be done towards a company you still wish to do business with so issuing a charge-back will result in your account being banned.
The best analogy I can think of is punching your friend in the stomach in order to get something you gave them back. You might get whatever you wanted back but the friendship will be over.
Not a problem for some. I knew someone who felt ripped off from day one when NWO first opened with an offer for a $200 "deal" giving them first rights and perks good for the weekend. He was never able to participate due to an unresolved glitch and missed out on the weekend event. Feeling taken he cancelled the transaction from his bank, and laughed at the admin notice banning his account. I tell him NWO is not a bad game, but he doesn't care. Tell's me it was a dishonest set up from the get go. Now I wonder about what he told me.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited February 2016
I didn't say don't do it but know that you will be banned because, as I said, it is a malicious action. You may absolutely feel wronged but if you charge back you will be closing the door.
Look up the rules for chargebacks and consider the legal defintion of fraud. If you watch any court shows you will always see people sue for emotional distress or defamation of character but while anything which would land you in court would be emotionally distressing there is a very specific legal definition to emotional distress and defamation of character which most people that sue for it do not fall under.
A change in a service is not fraud and if you became disatisfied after the purchase that would fall under buyer's remorse. False advertising, taking payments without your permission....etc. would be fraud. Feel free to consult your legal counsel in the matter but using a service without knowing the laws that govern them is not a wise decision.
Hence why I do not want people to simply tell others to issue a charge-back as there is more to it than deciding you are unhappy with a service. I am not saying I am right in saying there was no fraud; that is still up to you all as individuals to decide, but do not suggest others to follow that course haphazardly.
And as an additional note I did nothing. I am just a player with a special title for volunteering my spare time. I'm not paid by Cryptic whatsoever.
Can we get at least a pause button for ViP now? And can we get at least an editable spam filter against the AD sellers spam now?
And the people in charge should take a look at http://steamcharts.com/app/109600 and think about ways to actually bring more players back to the game.
Uhm, this chart is significant because I estimate Steam is maybe 20% of the player base. This means overall, I estimate, NWO is trending between 11K to 16K players.
Comments
They hope that it dies down, safe in the assumption that the casuals who spend without care or reason and don't come to the forums will still be there and the folks raging here will eventually give in and go back and join them. And the truly crappy thing is that if history tells us anything, they are probably right.
Let me be the first: I
What do the players want ? from what I can judge, the old dungeons back as epics and the ability to progress at a reasonable rate. What do we get ? More levelling dungeons that only people farming ADs on multiple alts ever do, and no chance to progress. I have 3 3200-3500 chars, gone is the chance to get any of them close to max, and to bring my 2200 that I'd earmarked as my next project up to that sort of level, it simply takes too long now. **edit** realised I missed out one of the important ones - new classes - we heard bard was coming between issues 8/9, well that didn't happen. My characters in P&P4E are druid, assassin, monk, psion, barbarian, none of which I can play here **edit**
Worse, we have a newish player in our guild, one character around 2K, no weapon/armor enchantments, rank 5s, how is he supposed to be able to gear up to even 2500 without dropping a lot of RM or spending months playing fairly casually.
I'll give these changes a few weeks to shake out with the new module coming out, but unless something changes dramatically it looks like time to charge back what I spent on black Friday and never have anything to do with Cryptic again, which is particularly hard for me to do as I played City of Heroes for 8+ years which was a Cryptic game till they sold it, and gave me my best MMO experiences.
To be honest last time people raged, it last for a week and a half, then people grew tired of waiting for a reply.
They quit or they just left the forums. Like i did.. got sick of waiting for any kind of change. Ofc it did not happen. Just like it will not happen now.
When exactly we were not able to exchange AD to ZEN ?
A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
2). Yes. I am panzer!
3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
I know there was a period of time when you had to wait for a few weeks to get your Zen... ? But the zax was still up and about.
So that is not it as well.
Did anyone else note that they're doing a 2x refinement weekend? As if 2x refinement points will in any way meaningfully offset the more than doubled price of a coal ward. I have other choice words that would get this post deleted, so I'll leave it at that.
"He beats you up and you go back to him. No matter how broken and bruised you get you still crawl back,why?"
'Well he is nice sometimes,look I even got a coalescent ward as a sorry gift.'
I Bought up to VIP 12 and the free keys actually made me start buying key packs and saving trade bars, now the ONLY things i spend trade bars on are gone. SHAME, SHAME, SHAME!
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
Charge-backs exist to protect people from fraudulent charges. They are not supposed to be used instead of requesting a refund or to force a company to refund when they do not agree to it. Issuing a charge-back is a malicious action.
Malicious could seem like the wrong word but it is very accurate as charge-backs have various negative effects beyond just ripping money out of a company or person's hands. Charge-backs are not meant to be done towards a company you still wish to do business with so issuing a charge-back will result in your account being banned.
The best analogy I can think of is punching your friend in the stomach in order to get something you gave them back. You might get whatever you wanted back but the friendship will be over.
However, that being said, I no longer spend a dime on the game, because none of the countless issues raised by the community are ever addressed by the devs.
I think we saw all we needed to see, when they finally have a live stream to allow players to speak with the devs, and Andy spends the whole time playing the game. For me, that summed up their total lack of commitment to fixing the numerous issues within the game.
But I will also encourage folks to not do chargebacks. Just learn your lesson, folks. Do not repeat the mistake you made.
However...
This is a good point -- requesting a refund should be a first step (I'd agree), and would also ultimately make a charge-back (if it's necessary) more effective.
If Cryptic actually /does/ give refunds, however, that would go a *long* way (imho) toward showing that they made a mistake(*) that they're sincerely trying to correct, rather than just following the blind disregard that so many have accused them of.
((*) that is -- a mistake in the entire set-up of their economy, which they're only slowly waking up to....)
You may absolutely feel wronged but if you charge back you will be closing the door.
Look up the rules for chargebacks and consider the legal defintion of fraud. If you watch any court shows you will always see people sue for emotional distress or defamation of character but while anything which would land you in court would be emotionally distressing there is a very specific legal definition to emotional distress and defamation of character which most people that sue for it do not fall under.
A change in a service is not fraud and if you became disatisfied after the purchase that would fall under buyer's remorse. False advertising, taking payments without your permission....etc. would be fraud. Feel free to consult your legal counsel in the matter but using a service without knowing the laws that govern them is not a wise decision.
Hence why I do not want people to simply tell others to issue a charge-back as there is more to it than deciding you are unhappy with a service. I am not saying I am right in saying there was no fraud; that is still up to you all as individuals to decide, but do not suggest others to follow that course haphazardly.
And as an additional note I did nothing. I am just a player with a special title for volunteering my spare time. I'm not paid by Cryptic whatsoever.