New critical strike stat curves

blazious11 · January 2016

With mod 6 we got new stat curves. Devs got rid of stat curves for a good reason, because people maxed out their chars, and there were no way of to give us proper rewards.
While the idea was great, a lot of people just maxed it out too soon, reaching even 100% of crit chance. Now again, there are no need for new armor sets. In my opinion, 100% crit chance is too much, crit should be seen rarely, not always.

The new stat curves would in theory, would bring closer the gap between beginners and high gaerad players. It would also normalize ('nerf') the damage ouptput of the players.

Note, that I'm just theorycrafting here. It's an idea, not concrete maths. The main idea, that crit should be rare, and it would require a sacrifice to increase it (now high crit builds are the best dps in most cases, so raising crit > raising other stats)

The new stat curves:

Crit: 1:600 or 1:800 - so every 600 or 800 points would give you 1% of critical chance. I'd prefer 800. So 8000 crit strike would give you 10% chance instead of 20%, 16000 would give 20% instead of 40% etc. (if they want it to be linear. Diminishing Return curves would be better, there are some good ones down.)

Power: It could stay as it is, or modify to 1:500 or 1:600, if adjustment is needed (if high power build would become much better than high crit build)

Armor penetration: Armorpen is the easiest stat to stack. It could stay as it is, or changed to 1:150, which would mean, that you'd need around 8-9000 stat to reach 60% cap for pve, so you would need to raise it a little more. I'd rather not change it, because Tank and healers would have an even harder time to solo content. But it would mean, that attributes that give you crit chance would becom 8 times better than those that give you resistance ignored. This should get some attention with the change.

Recovery: Stay as it is, (or completely rework daily system, I will explicate it in another post. Every 200: recovery would give the recharge speed increase, just like now, and every 400 stat would give you 1 sec daily cooldown reduction -see post about dailies)

Defensive stats: leave them as it is.

Other adjustments: With crit changes, some class power would become too powerful. They should be reworked like this:
TR: Stealth give you a +20% flat crit chance increase instead of automatic 100%. (So if you have 40% you'd have 60% in stealth). OR around 33% multiplier (so if you'd have 30% you'd have 40% in stealth, if you have 40% you'd have 53% in stealth).

CW: Eye of the storm give you 2+1s/rank automatic crit, or 5+1s/rank +20% crit chance with the internal cooldown.
Chaos magic has a chance to give you +10/15% flat crit chance, or around +33% crit multiplicative chance.
CW would get the biggest nerf in damage with crit nerf, because a lot of their skill dependant on crit (storm spell, crit confr, nightmare wizardry etc.) So they need a buff to their damage somewhere.

GWF: weapon master give you 1+1/rank crit chance, offhand bonus gives you +2% crit chance.

Any other adjustment that needed...

I don't pvp a lot, so I don't know what it would mean exactly to pvp. My guess is, that tenacity should have a little less damage reduction effect on crit strikes.

Crit chance changes could mean also, that Vorpal would become less OP, and other weapon enchants would become better at the same time. (Only feytouched would need a little nerf, because it would be too OP with the changes) (However, Vorpal was Bis back then with 30-40% crit chance only)

Note, that this post is not about the exact maths, but the idea of making crit chance a harder achievable stat. I know, this would mean a big change to current meta, and it is unlikely to happen, but I'd like to know, if you would like a change like this.

Also, balancing Lostmauth could already mean, that high-crit build would not be the only palyable path, making this post obsolete. Yet I still think, that crit should not reach over 40-50% in any cases.

dfnce · January 2016

Current system promotes use of max ranking stones, it is marketing decision caters to certain group of players. Maximum 100% rate of Critical change in NW is unreasonable (but who cares anyway). This is how business policy makes game design a grotesque.

I think that previous system based on diminishing results with all flaws (due to be poorly documented at official level) was much more fair and interesting.

It should be easy to get base level of Critical Chance like 10%. More advanced player should able to reach 30% in non-critical build. At maximum critical rate should not go much beyond 40%.

scathias · January 2016

The armor pen stat curve is based around giving PvE player all the armor pen they need for appropriate content in appropriate gear. So if you are running t2s and you deck out in full elven you should have enough armor pen, that is what the devs said back during a mod 6 live stream and that is one of the things they use when putting stats onto gear. so changing the armpen curve would mean reworking how much armor pen is put onto gear

bauggs · January 2016

yep but for my opinion..getting +100% power boosts from buffs and things is too much also and ignoring 60% armor is too much this game is just too easy and in my eyes this means harder contents and vorpal could be choice but not one and only
and there is much other things to add.
items with special attacks special stats, new stats like +attack speed to atwills with power button what drains your stamina when stamina is out your attack speed goes back to normal,
that would be one choice if you use that you cant guard/dodge or what ever so its situational what else...anything
balanced mmo games doesnt allow players to stack 100% critical chance or +150% damage just from one stat and that armor pen is just ridiculous.
gwfs cos they have the most power they could get armor break to passive class effects when they hit atwills or what ever. they can break armor maybe -?%armor ?sec no stacking and 25% chance ?ofc that means max armor pen should be like 25%+if gwf breaks its 25+gwfarmorbreak% so party needs them. and maybe some stuns to them or just stuns.
then other classes new things so every class could have something to give in dungeons and remember REWARDS!
1-3h dungeons ofc

gomok72 · January 2016

blazious11 said:
With mod 6 we got new stat curves. Devs got rid of stat curves for a good reason, because people maxed out their chars, and there were no way of to give us proper rewards.
While the idea was great, a lot of people just maxed it out too soon, reaching even 100% of crit chance. Now again, there are no need for new armor sets. In my opinion, 100% crit chance is too much, crit should be seen rarely, not always.

The new stat curves would in theory, would bring closer the gap between beginners and high gaerad players. It would also normalize ('nerf') the damage ouptput of the players.

Note, that I'm just theorycrafting here. It's an idea, not concrete maths. The main idea, that crit should be rare, and it would require a sacrifice to increase it (now high crit builds are the best dps in most cases, so raising crit > raising other stats)

The new stat curves:

Crit: 1:600 or 1:800 - so every 600 or 800 points would give you 1% of critical chance. I'd prefer 800. So 8000 crit strike would give you 10% chance instead of 20%, 16000 would give 20% instead of 40% etc.

Power: It could stay as it is, or modify to 1:500 or 1:600, if adjustment is needed (if high power build would become much better than high crit build)

Armor penetration: Armorpen is the easiest stat to stack. It could stay as it is, or changed to 1:150, which would mean, that you'd need around 8-9000 stat to reach 60% cap for pve, so you would need to raise it a little more. I'd rather not change it, because Tank and healers would have an even harder time to solo content. But it would mean, that attributes that give you crit chance would becom 8 times better than those that give you resistance ignored. This should get some attention with the change.

Recovery: Stay as it is, (or completely rework daily system, I will explicate it in another post. Every 200: recovery would give the recharge speed increase, just like now, and every 400 stat would give you 1 sec daily cooldown reduction -see post about dailies)

Defensive stats: leave them as it is.

Other adjustments: With crit changes, some class power would become too powerful. They should be reworked like this:
TR: Stealth give you a +20% flat crit chance increase instead of automatic 100%. (So if you have 40% you'd have 60% in stealth). OR around 33% multiplier (so if you'd have 30% you'd have 40% in stealth, if you have 40% you'd have 53% in stealth).

CW: Eye of the storm give you 2+1s/rank automatic crit, or 5+1s/rank +20% crit chance with the internal cooldown.
Chaos magic has a chance to give you +10/15% flat crit chance, or around +33% crit multiplicative chance.
CW would get the biggest nerf in damage with crit nerf, because a lot of their skill dependant on crit (storm spell, crit confr, nightmare wizardry etc.) So they need a buff to their damage somewhere.

GWF: weapon master give you 1+1/rank crit chance, offhand bonus gives you +2% crit chance.

Any other adjustment that needed...

I don't pvp a lot, so I don't know what it would mean exactly to pvp. My guess is, that tenacity should have a little less damage reduction effect on crit strikes.

Crit chance changes could mean also, that Vorpal would become less OP, and other weapon enchants would become better at the same time. (Only feytouched would need a little nerf, because it would be too OP with the changes)

Note, that this post is not about the exact maths, but the idea of making crit chance a harder achievable stat. I know, this would mean a big change to current meta, and it is unlikely to happen, but I'd like to know, if you would like a change like this.

Also, balancing Lostmauth could already mean, that high-crit build would not be the only palyable path, making this post obsolete. Yet I still think, that crit should not reach over 40-50% in any cases.

I could go for this, as long as they made it where you were benefiting from party buffs that would still put you at a decent level. This game should have been based off of group make up instead of enchants and such, and in certain instances, you would need certain classes/classes to do dungeons in-game (un-dead, you would need Cleric and Paladin), generally for Devils and arcane practitioners you would need SW and CW, for overwhelming numbers you would need GF, GWF and TR, etc.

I also think they should have put specific dungeons in that require a CW and SW in order to solve Arcane puzzles or a Trickster Rouge that had to disarm traps that would instantly kill you or you couldn't progress through.

On a note, if they did what you were asking, they would have to change all the modifiers on PC and NPC abilities/DR, which would be a task in itself.

blazious11 · January 2016

scathias said:
The armor pen stat curve is based around giving PvE player all the armor pen they need for appropriate content in appropriate gear. So if you are running t2s and you deck out in full elven you should have enough armor pen, that is what the devs said back during a mod 6 live stream and that is one of the things they use when putting stats onto gear. so changing the armpen curve would mean reworking how much armor pen is put onto gear

Yes, armorpen could be leaved as it is. The only issue is, that the attributes, that give you resist ignored are totally overlooked at char creation, it just not worth it to spend any point on it (for pve, you still benefit it on pvp).

Devs also stated in steams, that other goal with curve-rework, that they could add new stuff to game as loot, rewards. Now, as Bis players reaching 100% crit, what is there to add? Legendary rings, Ambush and other poorly designed items. Artifakt sets, that even more powerful, than the previous armor sets, that were called imbalanced. And luxury items from lockbox, while there is no real endgame content.

While the new curves were introduced as a long-lasting solution, they already become obsolete for some. I know, that they are the minority, but it was a design flaw, that so high-end toons are possible already. Some things was healthier before mod 6, there were people soloing content, but power creep was on a lower level (IMO). (And, there were content, that worth to level your char for.)

micky1p00 · January 2016

I understand what you trying to do, and probably the right solution is diminished return curves on stats.
Keeping linear function was not a good idea, and remaining with those wont change anything, for example per your example:
with crit 800:1

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=maximize+(1+++x/40000)((0.20+y/80000)*(1+1.25)++(1-+(0.20+y/80000)))+on+x+y=36000+,+x+>0,+y+>+0

You can see that for p.vorpal you don't need any crit stat, with a bit more severity 150% you are capped at 4k vs 32k power.

IMO, the DR curves should have remained, and defense added to the mobs.

thefabricant · January 2016

micky1p00 said:
I understand what you trying to do, and probably the right solution is diminished return curves on stats.
Keeping linear function was not a good idea, and remaining with those wont change anything, for example per your example:
with crit 800:1

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=maximize+(1+++x/40000)((0.20+y/80000)*(1+1.25)++(1-+(0.20+y/80000)))+on+x+y=36000+,+x+>0,+y+>+0

You can see that for p.vorpal you don't need any crit stat, with a bit more severity 150% you are capped at 4k vs 32k power.

IMO, the DR curves should have remained, and defense added to the mobs.

@micky1p00 I agree with you, it should not be linear and should instead be a curve. The game would be far more balanced if crit tended towards say 40%.

umsche · January 2016

Diminishing returns on stat curves is what reduces the gap between high geared and low geared toons. And it prevents things like 100% crit chances happening.
It should have stayed.

blazious11 · January 2016

Yes, but Diminishing curves meant also, that back then until mod 6 the only viable build was 24% armorpen, max 3k recovery and 35-40% critical, anything beyond that simply did not worth it. You could reach that from equipment alone, and the only enchantment you used was Radiant in offense slot, stacking only power.
Putting a DR on crit could mean that you have to stack only power again after some point, and we would be in mod 2 all over again, with the DR limitations that was intended to stopped with mod6, stated the devs. But now it isn't healthier either, almost the only viable thing is to stack crit first. Maybe a lostmauth balance could change that.

Still, reaching 100% crit is insane, it should be around 40%. While I agree with DR curves instead of linear, we would be at the starting point again, that was intended to be reworked.

micky1p00 · January 2016

blazious11 said:
Yes, but Diminishing curves meant also, that back then until mod 6 the only viable build was 24% armorpen, max 3k recovery and 35-40% critical, anything beyond that simply did not worth it. You could reach that from equipment alone, and the only enchantment you used was Radiant in offense slot, stacking only power.
Putting a DR on crit could mean that you have to stack only power again after some point, and we would be in mod 2 all over again, with the DR limitations that was intended to stopped with mod6, stated the devs. But now it isn't healthier either, almost the only viable thing is to stack crit first. Maybe a lostmauth balance could change that.

Still, reaching 100% crit is insane, it should be around 40%. While I agree with DR curves instead of linear, we would be at the starting point again, that was intended to be reworked.

What you describe happened because power was linear but crit was not.
Make both the same function, and you have close to 1:1 ratio like now (with 1.25 severity), make them a bit apart (by a constant) and you have a fixed ratio for a certain crit severity. Add a small difference in the derivative and the ratio will change as you go, and you will have to keep a careful balance, but all of it controllable and there are plenty of options besides linear power and non-linear all the rest.
So you far from have to get back to what it was.

For example for simple functions power_rating ^0.42 and crit_rating^0.38:

The graph shows from 0 to 40000 stats, today at 40000 power we get +100% over base, so I kept it close but at
150k today we get +375% but this function will return +149% so the DR is felt.
The crit goes from 50% at 20k stats to 43%
and from 75% at 30k to 50% so those 10k stat returned 7% crit chance.

The optimal for total of 36000 rating (about what maxed people have today) with 125% severity is:

(power, crit)
(23575, 12425)

for 150% severity:

(22316, 13684)

This is simple result without any accounts of lol sets or on crit modifiers.

If I set the functions closer to 0.41, 0.39:

and max damage will be at

125% severity: (21486, 14514)
150%: (20198, 15802)

But those are examples there are many adjustments that can be done, even here I would push them a bit so the rise at the beginning is not as high.

Like:

btw, recovery is 'interesting':
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=plot+10/(1+x/100),+x+=+0..200

from 0 to 200% RSI

umsche · January 2016

I like those curves.

putzboy78 · January 2016

Much like the noise about changing the lostmauth set this is a good idea in theory but it needs to wait until the next increase in levels.

The F2P players are just now reaching a point where they can take advantage of these high crit chances. Switching things around more frequently that they can be farmed/maxed means the F2P citizens are always behind. They should be given a little bit of time to be competitive else they will tire of being fodder for the P2W citizenship.

A healthy F2P MMO has to allow the F2P people to reach BIS before replacing the BIS and the P2W players to get there stuff today at a price. That keeps plenty of happy fodder available for P2W champions to feed on. That is the key to good financial return for F2P MMOs. If F2P players do not feel they can ever reach BIS or the sense of only being a few upgrades away from competing with the P2W champions they will move on.

Unknown · January 2016