Explain how bandwidth affects the Foundry

iandarksword

@terramak mentioned that he would have to approach the lead design team about bandwidth in regards to adding/updating assets during the Q&A livestream. I know it may end up being a long, time-consuming post, but could we get a more in-depth, technical explanation for why the Foundry is bandwidth dependant? Is it something with load times? Asset Menu load times? Quest load times? What is the process in which assets are added to the Foundry?

mrgiggles651

Bandwith in this case means dev time. It's buzzword bingo jargon, not related to network speed.

instynctive

Ah.. that makes it a little more clear.

Regardless, on http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter, it states:

Infinite Content
Neverwinter comes with the Foundry, a dynamic toolset that provides you the game assets and a sandbox environment to create your own adventures. When your creation is complete, you can hook it up directly into the existing world for everyone in the community to play!

The Foundry is half the reason I chose to play this game, instead of all the other available F2P options out there. I love creating. But the sad state of the Foundry right now makes it nearly impossible to create a Foundry, and the lack of rewards mean no one (very few) are playing them.

I would like to see a more powerful editor (preferably a local one), more assets, and better player rewards.

terramak

mrgiggles651 said:

Bandwith in this case means dev time. It's buzzword bingo jargon, not related to network speed.

Yup. Confirming - That was what I meant!

ambisinisterr

@ terramak

You either showed your knowledge of the english language or the bounds of your nerdiness with that one.

I knew what you meant but figured this question would come up as soon as I heard it on the stream. Unfortunately many tech based words have misconceptions and to the average person bandwidth is synonymous with speed rather than the total amount of resources (bands) available at a given period of time.

Just like I had to explain to my father last week that "dedicated lines" don't really mean the ISP installed a line specifically for him but rather that he had a guaranteed amount of bandwidth from the line shared with his neighbors. True dedicated lines do exist but they aren't something the ISP give people who don't pay a huge premium, they simply play on the lack of understanding people have of the terminology to make their services sound superior.

In any case, it did make me grin hearing bandwidth used in that context, haha. I think I might have to start doing that just so that the term becomes less alien one person at a time, haha.

beckylunatic

It's not the only time one NW's devs has used that term re: whether or not the team can spare the resources to do a thing, but that's how I initially picked up this context for it.

valcontar73

terramak said:

mrgiggles651 said:

Bandwith in this case means dev time. It's buzzword bingo jargon, not related to network speed.

Yup. Confirming - That was what I meant!

Ok now I understand, take in mind that not all the people who play this game are english, so if you begin to use jargon words it's even more difficult to understand what are you saying.

That being said, I hope you fix the teleporter issue as soon as possible, because it's a very annoying bug.

And if there would be a way that some authors may help to add assets in the game, I'm pretty sure some of us will be happy to help.

instynctive

valcontar73 said:

And if there would be a way that some authors may help to add assets in the game, I'm pretty sure some of us will be happy to help.

Yup. This.

@terramak ... I think you'll find the Foundry authors are a very dedicated, hard-core group who just want decent tools to create "Infinite Adventure".. more assets (to include boss-like encounters), fewer bugs, and better rewards for players... we will keep telling our stories as best we can through the Foundry, but those stories are meant to be shared, not ignore because people are too busy grinding RP and SH upgrade stuff.

So, yeah.. whatever you need, man. Let us help you help us.

reiwulf

I don't think we're asking for a dedicated person for the foundry (although that would be awesome). If they would just fix the teleporter bug and add some kind of reward to quests so people can earn anything other than "having a good time" things would be infinitely better. what about boa tokens that could be traded for campaign progress in the chest at the end? (only for quests over 15 mins of course)
what we want for the foundry are really small changes that could improve it drastically. We don't mean to take away too much tome from the devs. (I think the most work is to add new assets, but that can be done gradually, and I remember reading that it wasn't really long)

rezuron

Boa tokens sound good.

reiwulf

even the old ad reward for quests would be great.

ambisinisterr

Let's go back to my broken record statement from years ago...

The biggest incentive for Foundry Authors to create work is by having players actually want to play the content.

Without rewards and incentives to do so only the niche story driven players play foundry quests more often than once every never.

Yeah it's hard to justify spending resources on Foundry development when the interest is so low...
But interest is so low because players have been given no reason to be interested in Foundry content. Nothing more.

NWN is still being played to this day because of UGC. NWN2 is still going fairly strong too and both of those titles are over a decade old. The interest is there...the devs simply failed to execute a system which gives players incentive to play the content.

instynctive

And this is why I Ambi.

iandarksword

The only thing I can say is keep on them guys. Hopefully @StrumSlinger and @terramak can continue to have the bug streams, make sure your concerns are there. I've encouraged some in the Foundry community to reach out to the folks at Wizards, in order to flank the decision making powers that be. We've already received a hefty endorsement from R.A. Salvatore, that's a victory in itself. Let's hope that progress can be made. Small victories can lead to big changes.

beckylunatic

A recent relevant thread

http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1210831/more-content-please

Players want content. Players want to be rewarded for their time.

Foundry authors want to make content that will be played. Foundry authors have the ability to create *infinite* content (assuming infinite potential authors), a big initial selling point on NW.

Devs have the ability to create only finite content, because they are mere mortals. Keeping players involved in limited content requires putting in reasons to grind the same things over and over again. Grind =/= content, because it is not interesting or engaging. Players feel harnessed to Sisyphean equipment/Stronghold grind because that is what is left to do. Players are bored, frustrated, depressed. Players may try to ride these feelings out until next big content release, or may throw up hands in despair and head for another game.

Players still don't spend time with Foundry because it does nothing to help with Sisyphean equipment/Stronghold grind. Time playing Neverwinter that doesn't contribute to Sisyphean climb is wasted time. Potential for infinite content and player engagement in novel experiences is wasted.

Game executives want people to play their game instead of someone else's. Game decision-makers won't allow any development time on or rewards from Foundry because... they are blind?

mrgiggles651

ambisinisterr said:

Let's go back to my broken record statement from years ago...

The biggest incentive for Foundry Authors to create work is by having players actually want to play the content.

Without rewards and incentives to do so only the niche story driven players play foundry quests more often than once every never.

Yeah it's hard to justify spending resources on Foundry development when the interest is so low...
But interest is so low because players have been given no reason to be interested in Foundry content. Nothing more.

NWN is still being played to this day because of UGC. NWN2 is still going fairly strong too and both of those titles are over a decade old. The interest is there...the devs simply failed to execute a system which gives players incentive to play the content.

NWO and NWN have different playerbases.

I "put my money where my mouth is" to the tune of 5 million AD to see if the best of Foundry could get NWO players to play it for it's own sake. The result of that experiment is they will not.

My conclusion was that Neverwinter Online's playerbase by and large just does not want to play UGC, they prefer shinies to foundries. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, it's just how the playerbase in Neverwinter Online is. Adding shiny stuff to Foundries wont make the playerbase enjoy foundry stories, it will result in the playerbase clicking their way through foundries in whatever manner results in the fastest shinies (see the one click achievement foundries, exploit foundries, legit grind monsters in an empty map for 15 minutes foundries etc). That's why the forums have been perpetually filled with "I'm bored/nothing to do" posts and anyone recommending trying Foundry stuff is dismissed.

reiwulf

i think it's mainly because of the grindy nature of the main game, only people who enjoy doing repeptitive acts to get their shines seem to form most of the playerbase, NW has never been a lore heavy game like other MMOs, so those lore interested people, who would enjoy the foundry the most, have been basically chased away by the grindy, repetitive nature of the main game.

beckylunatic

I don't think that "enjoy" the repetitive acts is quite the right word. I think most players thoroughly resent it, but feel obligated because they want the results. And they stay out of Foundry because of what I described. If you are in a Foundry, you can't earn substantial refinement (even ordinary DH drops are nerfed if you're in a Foundry), or any AD anymore (barring Giggles, which I regret to say I've forgotten what that was all about), or anything you can exchange for reasonable equipment, or any of the endless resources required for the Stronghold which are available in practically every bit of game content that is not Foundry. So even if the thought of going to Sharandar or doing yet another dragon run makes them want to gouge out their own eyes, they do it. Even if they hate it, they do it. Or they give it up completely and quit, like Reiwulf says.

I think a lot of people who hang on to Neverwinter do so because they are very emotionally invested in the lore and the intellectual property, but that doesn't mean they don't want to try to earn the nice things the game says they can have if they work at them. But Foundry offers little to no opportunity to earn those things. I know that personally, if I don't feel like doing anything that's going to help progress something, I'll probably turn the game off, because I already spend more time than is healthy on the game things I "need" to do even though they're not very fun. It's really rather sad.

reiwulf

I probably exagerated, they don't enjoy it, but they endure it to get what they want (shinies) but compare the playerbase to other MMOs, it's just a matter of going to tumblr or other social sharing medias and comparing the posts to other MMOs, if I search for other MMOs, I'll find lots of character drawings, screenshots of them, stories about them, etc... when searching for NW, you can barely find new posts at all about it. people in here don't take screenshots of their characters, don't invent stories about them, don't make drawings about them, don't rp with them, at least much much less than in other more lore oriented games.

ambisinisterr

I would add more in regards to the incentive topic but I think it's suffice to say anything I would say would have already been in becky's posts haha.

Bottom line is that Foundry Content does not contibute to progressions so from a player standpoint it is a waste of time. It has far less to do with the player base being different from NWN's, which it is, and more to do with the fact the progression is slow enough without "wasting" time in UGC which does not contribute in any way towards progression.


And (I think) I agree with you reiwulf that many people who get invested in their characters and lore have left but that doesn't mean there are not people who would like to be invested in their characters still around. Zeb and I are still around afterall.

Just because we are down that path doesn't mean we shouldn't try to correct the course and not give those who want reasons to be invested in their characters beyond grinds what they wish. As becky said, many here are invested in the IP and those are the same people who would benefit from feeling like there are options to be invested in their characters beyond the gear grind. The doomsaying side is to say those are already gone but I think there are those who just adapted because of the IP and surely at least some of those who left would return.

On that note...with the recent reduction to customization (transmute) options we might already being on the path to getting people more invested in their characters.

reiwulf

Oh I would LOVE for NW to become more story and lore oriented, I'd really love it. But I think actions speak louder than words and the actions I've seen from Cryptic have shown little to none interest into making the game more story oriented. We did get the salvatore quests, which were pretty nice, but besides those and the dorothea quest at lv 16 or so, all the quests in here are much more oriented to kill enemies and bring items than anything else. specially with module 6.
if they would add more story oriented quests and laid down the grind a bit, things could be vastly different. But I don't see than happening anytime soon. (although I would love to be proven wrong).

eldarth

ambisinisterr wrote: »

Yeah it's hard to justify spending resources on Foundry development when the interest is so low...
But interest is so low because players have been given no reason to be interested in Foundry content. Nothing more.

Exactly.

And they have been given incredibly simple fixes (repeatedly) that would even generate Zen sales and keep and increase playerbase:

1. Rewarding completely non-exploitave time spent playing foundry quests
2. Simple foundry changes to incentivize (i.e. increase) Zen sales
3. New "Rare" Foundry Rewards: "Partial" Campaign Boosters (similar to Dread Ring or Sharandar Campaign Completion only completes a single tier unlock perhaps)

Incredibly simple fixes any developer fresh out of college could do in a month.​​

essenti

Rather than rely on repeated content to provide the only treadmill for player progression (EE quests on mod6 release and every HE - I am looking at you!)

UGC could fill this role spectacularly well. If players could supplement their daily and weekly campaign quests with Foundry quests, it would most definitely break the monotony and give the devs some breathing room. Campaign areas should have a foundry NPC (like those harpers of old) that offer campaign currency / refinement rewards for daily qualified foundry quests.

Each campaign zone's foundry NPC should also offer a weekly foundry quest that requires playing a featured foundry quest with a chance to drop a foundry unique reward of some variety.

I still feel strongly that temporary zen store items (mounts and companions with an x-hour timer on them) would have a great impact on both the foundry and zen store sales... I think these would fit nicely on those weekly foundry campaign zone quests I mentioned.

Additionally, to make longer quests equally desirable, the campaign rewards could be scaled based on the average playtime for the quest (above the 15 minute daily requirement, of course).

mrgiggles651

ambisinisterr said:

Bottom line is that Foundry Content does not contibute to progressions so from a player standpoint it is a waste of time.

Exactly the point, the NWO playerbase views progression as more important than story. You don't have to play for progression, nothing forces the playerbase to do so. You can contentedly play nothing but foundry and not care about being iLVL whatever.

Foundry: story
Regular content: progression

The playerbase plays what it wants, which is why foundry stuff is virtually unplayed. If progression is added to Foundry, the playerbase will play whichever gives quickest progression because progression is what they want. I think the foundry authors want people to appreciate the stories. Adding rewards to foundry will not make the playerbase appreciate the story, it will make them grind the content as quickly as they can to get the reward.

essenti

mrgiggles651 said:

ambisinisterr said:

Bottom line is that Foundry Content does not contibute to progressions so from a player standpoint it is a waste of time.

Exactly the point, the NWO playerbase views progression as more important than story. You don't have to play for progression, nothing forces the playerbase to do so. You can contentedly play nothing but foundry and not care about being iLVL whatever.

Foundry: story
Regular content: progression

The playerbase plays what it wants, which is why foundry stuff is virtually unplayed. If progression is added to Foundry, the playerbase will play whichever gives quickest progression because progression is what they want. I think the foundry authors want people to appreciate the stories. Adding rewards to foundry will not make the playerbase appreciate the story, it will make them grind the content as quickly as they can to get the reward.

While this is a very cogent point, the major issue is that the game itself is highly centered around the grind. Even if a player wants to run foundries for the story, they are guaranteed to be giving up any game progress to do so. Giving foundries scaling rewards on average play time would at least give players an opportunity to make some progress while they play foundries.

instynctive

I keep coming back to this video...

reiwulf

I think foundries should help progression too, at a slower rate than the main game, but not 0% progression as it is now. So people can then choose to do boring repeated content for faster results, or slow things down a bit with the foundry to experience new places and stories, but with a slower progression.

eldarth

reiwulf wrote: »

I think foundries should help progression too, at a slower rate than the main game, but not 0% progression as it is now. So people can then choose to do boring repeated content for faster results, or slow things down a bit with the foundry to experience new places and stories, but with a slower progression.

Exactly. ZERO progression promotes zero plays. Duh Cryptic.
All they have to do to prevent foundry exploitation is base rewards/XP off of Earned Time Spent:

"Earned Time Spent" - Preventing “Artificial Time Extending” Exploits
Currently total “Time Spent” if used for experience/loot maximum cap calculations can currently be artificially extended by macro usage where player merely jumps up and down or runs in circles for hours and vacuums up loot from portal spawns.

• “Earned Time Spent” could accrue only every 20 seconds(?) following an experience Milestone (Objective Complete, or Encounter Complete, or Dialog Complete). Once per completion. An easy way to calculate this would be to deduct the previous milestone from the current time and only add a minimum time between milestones occurred:
  • Seconds = Current Time - Last Milestone
  • If Seconds > 20 then ...
    • Earned Time Spent = Earned Time Spent + 20
    • Last Milestone = Current Time
• Loot/Experience “earned” could then be calculated/capped based on the non-exploitable “Earned Time Spent.”

That's like THREE lines of programming code @terramak. Three lines that would allow you to reap the benefits of an uncrippled foundry where you could add Zen incentive rewards and increase sales.​​

kreatyve

I love these ideas. I haven't done much with Foundry lately either, even though I'm getting really close to rank 7 dungeon master. I do hope that the devs can find the time and resources to devote some real work into the foundry soon. Sometime this year, M10 or M11 would be great.

instynctive

I have a dozen unpublished, half-done foundries at the moment, because I spend an inordinate amount of time finding work-arounds and dealing with one of the many bugs and glitches that @eldarth has painstakingly maintained... I honestly lose interest in my own story... and if I'm not interested, I can't imagine that someone playing my foundry would stay interested either.

The authors are happy to help Cryptic out.. whatever they need.

eldarth

instynctive wrote: »

The authors are happy to help Cryptic out.. whatever they need.

Hell, I'd sign an NDA and work on the source myself for free and submit fixes and patch notes even.​​