Sustained damage yes, but the capability to burst down mobs with low HP is something HRs can do relatively well. You can two-shot or three-shot most trash mobs with Cordon + an application of Thorned Roots, with the occasional Seismic Shot.
There is no such thing as damage/DPS when there's nothing to kill i.e. when everything's dead.
Combat is irrelevant in the meta because by the time you can setup and start your damage, everything is dead. On top of that, Combat has the lowest base damage boosts out of all 3 HR trees (not that HR base damage isn't pathetic as it is), so Combat, especially with CTG, will find it very difficult to compete with other classes as well as other HR trees (notably Trapper, but that's also due to cooldowns mostly, and Thorned Roots).
CTG is a damage-per-second/sustained damage skill for AoE, requires time to actually do damage, especially with Blade Storm which is RNG based, so you have to wait for the procs to happen. In the standard timeframe of a fight, that takes far too long for far too little rewards - you will get far more consistent results out of something like Seeker's Vengeance and Aspect of the Serpent (why do we also have some of the hardest damage buffs to use?).
CTG is a great skill, but in the current meta, the only way you can compete/be relevant is to be PF trapper, especially since the "endgame" content, Demogorgon, is far easier when you focus on single target rather than full AoE, as CTG is.
I can't really say for CTG, but in Module 6 PvE, at boss fights such as Traven and GWD boss, with DC/CW/GF/HR/SW party, I was hitting 300-500k Thorned Root ticks, 100-200k per hit of CA + Lostmauth. Note that I did not use Longstrider's Shot or Seeker's Vengeance during these fights. TR is way good for boss fights since you can actually apply some burst because of the CC immunity mechanic.
I will never use CtG in single target fights, for this, HR has Rapid Strike. and: PG-CtG-Fox-CtG-Thorned Strike-CtG is fast enough and is a real burst of DMG, All the At-Will DMG of a Combat comes from cap feat, and not from CtG spam, spamming CtG is worth only when all 6 encounters are in cooldown, and this is rarely happening. ”so you have to wait for the procs to happen” - there is not such a thing as wait to happen for a random event. It happens or it not happens, no matter how long you ”wait” for it. You can trigger BS in the first 2-3 swing and not to trigger the last 2-3 swings and vice-versa, but you have not to wait for the effect. As for crits, do you wait them? or just crit or not crit? You are right only about the fact, that it is possible for BS not to be triggered when it is needed, but this is real for any random events in the game (and for crits too).
Also, this disscusion is not about how combat SW HR is useless in curent meta, but, is the boost in dps from blade storm worth the slot on the panel, and if not, what is better.
The thing with crit strike is the chance is a lot higher than Blade Storm's proc chance, and the damage boost far greater as well.
Compared to crit damage, BS' damage is negligible so your comparison of the chance effects between them is irrelevant.
I'm assuming if you're using Rapid Strike you're combat, because trapper won't have time to use it in between rotations if you want to be effective (unless you're using Plant Growth in a single target fight, which you shouldn't be because it's grossly ineffective).
Using a rotation such as PG-CTG-Fox-CTG-Thorned Strike-CTG if you're Trapper is ineffective - damage is from encounters and Thorned Roots, at-wills are extremely negligible. So I'm going to assume you're talking Combat purely, though as I said, if you're going for DPS, Trapper is the only way atm to be competitive.
Anyhow, HRs have a few damage feats worth noting: - Aspect of the Serpent (12% damage per stack, 24% at 2 stacks; if Trapper, 5% more per stack and 2.5% crit chance per stack) - Stormwarden: Twin-Blade Storm (16% damage when hitting more than 2 targets) - Seeker's Vengeance (19% back-attack damage) - Stormwarden: Blade Storm (25% chance to deal 20% AoE damage)
Alright, so let's assume you're Stormwarden first. You have a choice between 4 damage feats, since Crushing Roots is absurdly bad for Combat.
In AoE/mob fights, if we assume 5 targets in favourable positions: - AotS will give you a *maximum* bonus of 24%, but more often than not it will only give you 0% or 12%, due to being Combat. - Twin-Blade Storm will give a constant bonus of 16%, unless you use Thorn Ward. - Seeker's Vengeance will give 19% on at least 1 hit of Fox Shift, and can be a constant bonus if you play correctly. - Blade Storm will give 100% damage boost at a 25% chance (20% * 5) for melee skills = 25% damage boost overall on melee skills.
In single target/boss fights, if we assume one target: - AotS will give you a maximum bonus of 24%, but more often than not, 0% or 12% unless you use Rain of Arrows + Thorn Ward. - Twin-Blade Storm will do nothing. - Seeker's Vengeance will be almost 100% uptime for a 19% damage boost unless you cannot get behind the boss. - Blade Storm will give a 20% damage boost at 25% chance = 5% damage boost on melee skills.
Also, take into account that Blade Storm most likely WILL NOT proc off the capstone because the capstone is piercing damage and is thus not accounted for as true damage, which is what things proc off. I don't know this for sure, but if I know the game mechanics, which I would like to think I do, then I'm mostly likely right.
Anyway, from this theoretical stuffs, Blade Storm and Twin-Blade Storm are best for AoE dealing (again, targets/you will need to be in a favourable position, but that's not something I can help you with), with Seeker's Vengeance and AotS for single target/boss fights. Again, if you're doing single target you should be using Pathfinder and not Stormwarden.
Blade Storm does have potential; I vaguely remember testing it for PvP a year or two ago, but Combat never was up to the same standards as Trapper was ever since Module 5.
Also if you're Trapper, the only feats you should be using are AotS always, and either Crushing Roots/Seeker's Vengeance and possibly Twin-Blade Storm if you're SW, but I don't know if TBS works on Thorned Roots damage.
The thing with crit strike is the chance is a lot higher than Blade Storm's proc chance, and the damage boost far greater as well.
Compared to crit damage, BS' damage is negligible so your comparison of the chance effects between them is irrelevant.
I'm assuming if you're using Rapid Strike you're combat, because trapper won't have time to use it in between rotations if you want to be effective (unless you're using Plant Growth in a single target fight, which you shouldn't be because it's grossly ineffective).
Using a rotation such as PG-CTG-Fox-CTG-Thorned Strike-CTG if you're Trapper is ineffective - damage is from encounters and Thorned Roots, at-wills are extremely negligible. So I'm going to assume you're talking Combat purely, though as I said, if you're going for DPS, Trapper is the only way atm to be competitive.
Anyhow, HRs have a few damage feats worth noting: - Aspect of the Serpent (12% damage per stack, 24% at 2 stacks; if Trapper, 5% more per stack and 2.5% crit chance per stack) - Stormwarden: Twin-Blade Storm (16% damage when hitting more than 2 targets) - Seeker's Vengeance (19% back-attack damage) - Stormwarden: Blade Storm (25% chance to deal 20% AoE damage)
Alright, so let's assume you're Stormwarden first. You have a choice between 4 damage feats, since Crushing Roots is absurdly bad for Combat.
In AoE/mob fights, if we assume 5 targets in favourable positions: - AotS will give you a *maximum* bonus of 24%, but more often than not it will only give you 0% or 12%, due to being Combat. - Twin-Blade Storm will give a constant bonus of 16%, unless you use Thorn Ward. - Seeker's Vengeance will give 19% on at least 1 hit of Fox Shift, and can be a constant bonus if you play correctly. - Blade Storm will give 100% damage boost at a 25% chance (20% * 5) for melee skills = 25% damage boost overall on melee skills.
In single target/boss fights, if we assume one target: - AotS will give you a maximum bonus of 24%, but more often than not, 0% or 12% unless you use Rain of Arrows + Thorn Ward. - Twin-Blade Storm will do nothing. - Seeker's Vengeance will be almost 100% uptime for a 19% damage boost unless you cannot get behind the boss. - Blade Storm will give a 20% damage boost at 25% chance = 5% damage boost on melee skills.
Also, take into account that Blade Storm most likely WILL NOT proc off the capstone because the capstone is piercing damage and is thus not accounted for as true damage, which is what things proc off. I don't know this for sure, but if I know the game mechanics, which I would like to think I do, then I'm mostly likely right.
Anyway, from this theoretical stuffs, Blade Storm and Twin-Blade Storm are best for AoE dealing (again, targets/you will need to be in a favourable position, but that's not something I can help you with), with Seeker's Vengeance and AotS for single target/boss fights. Again, if you're doing single target you should be using Pathfinder and not Stormwarden.
Blade Storm does have potential; I vaguely remember testing it for PvP a year or two ago, but Combat never was up to the same standards as Trapper was ever since Module 5.
Also if you're Trapper, the only feats you should be using are AotS always, and either Crushing Roots/Seeker's Vengeance and possibly Twin-Blade Storm if you're SW, but I don't know if TBS works on Thorned Roots damage.
I am a Combat. you have some mistakes in you calculations. Anyway, generaly you are right. But:
"Also, take into account that Blade Storm most likely WILL NOT proc off the capstone because the capstone is piercing damage" I runed a test and as i understood, BS procs from Piercing Blades (and can proc multiple times as well). "capstone is piercing damage", you are wrong, it is not piercing, piercing is from another feat. BS procs from the capfeat.
"Blade Storm will give 100% damage boost at a 25% chance (20% * 5) for melee skills = 25% damage boost overall on melee skills." if there are 5 targets, you have a 76% chance for BS to proc at least once and a 0.0009 to proc 5 times at once.
In my ACT runs, BS has a 6% average DMG, it is higher than Thorn Strike (4%) and Blade Strom (4-6%), and CtG too (4%) While Piercing Blades (14-16%) and Blade Hurricane (10-12%) have a total of about 26%, Fox Shift has 15-20%
So, from mele i do 60% of dmg and aditional 5-6% with blade storm, the other 35% are done in range stance. 6% from BS will be a 10% DMG bost in mele, asuming that my act runs include trash and solo targets (bosses too) that die not too fast (a full rotation + 1-3 CtG needed to kill trash).
And 'cause of capfeat an piercing blades we do a lot of discret hits, even a 5% chance can not be neglated.
My apologies, was confusing Piercing Blades with Flurry.
Can you read tooltips? Blade Storm deals 20% damage in an AoE = if targets are close enough, you will hit 5 targets max with the splash effect. That is the only reason why Blade Storm has a possibility to be viable. If it was only additional damage to a single target, then it's worthless.
Also I am going to say this - if Piercing Blades is only 14-16% of your damage as Combat, you are building or playing the class wrong.
Additionally, since you are using Thorn Ward, you are seriously gimping yourself with the build you are attempting. If you are going to use Blade Storm, then you need to use skills that work with it - Thorn Strike is a trash melee encounter. From your posts, I'm going to assume you use Fox Shift, Thorn Ward and Cordon of Arrows. Fox Shift and Cordon are good choices and while Thorn Ward is a really good ranged skill, you need to swap it out if you want to use Blade Storm to its maximum effect, because the melee version is absolute trash.
Also I said, Piercing Blades is piercing damage and hence you shouldn't be getting procs off it, but I could be wrong and Blade Storm works differently to every other damage type in the game.
My honest opinion? Run Twin-Blade Storm + whatever you want for trash clearing, and AotS + Seeker's Vengeance for boss fights. But imo, Pathfinder is going to be better for single target no matter what you do. And Combat will never compete with Trapper for damage until they buff the class and do some path reworks.
My apologies, was confusing Piercing Blades with Flurry.
1) Can you read tooltips? Blade Storm deals 20% damage in an AoE = if targets are close enough, you will hit 5 targets max with the splash effect. That is the only reason why Blade Storm has a possibility to be viable. If it was only additional damage to a single target, then it's worthless.
2) Also I am going to say this - if Piercing Blades is only 14-16% of your damage as Combat, you are building or playing the class wrong.
3) Additionally, since you are using Thorn Ward, you are seriously gimping yourself with the build you are attempting. If you are going to use Blade Storm, then you need to use skills that work with it - Thorn Strike is a trash melee encounter. From your posts, I'm going to assume you use Fox Shift, Thorn Ward and Cordon of Arrows. Fox Shift and Cordon are good choices and while Thorn Ward is a really good ranged skill, you need to swap it out if you want to use Blade Storm to its maximum effect, because the melee version is absolute trash.
4) Also I said, Piercing Blades is piercing damage and hence you shouldn't be getting procs off it, but I could be wrong and Blade Storm works differently to every other damage type in the game.
5) My honest opinion? Run Twin-Blade Storm + whatever you want for trash clearing, and AotS + Seeker's Vengeance for boss fights. But imo, Pathfinder is going to be better for single target no matter what you do. And Combat will never compete with Trapper for damage until they buff the class and do some path reworks.
1) It was a missundestanding. Sorry, as i understand now, you meaned the spread dmg only, but take in consideration, that if I hit more targets at once, a have higher chance to spread that DMG.
2) My total mele DMG is ~66%, 16% of this DMG is piercing, so, piercing is ~32% aditional dmg from my mele dmg only, what's wrong? (34% of my dmg usualy a done in range stance, piercing does not work in range)
3) Do not asume anything I use thorn, RoA and fox, i will swap RoA or thorn with cordon when i'll up it. And notice that RoS is a trash encounter too, so i'll go for fox-cordon-ward. I thin Hindering can be good, but the range constituent is too bad for me, while ward i love for Thorn Ward component.
4) There are a lot of lifesteals of 2-10 hp now when i can crit for 10k, this can be only from a piercind made by a BS made by another piercing made by CtG. Also there are a lot of null DMG in ACT. Andd, from about 4000 swings, 1300 are from BS and 700 from piercing. So, if we exclude BS, there are 2700 swings to trigger BS, and if we have 1300 BS swings, it means that 48% of swings triggered BS. (I am realy confused about this)
5) I run with lone wolf and BS, and search for a metod to test twinblade. For boss ill try Seeker's and BS.
Also, take a look at min and max dmg of BS and piercing (in the screenshots on the 1st page). those numbers are interesting too.
BS hits multiple targets, so you need to take that into account. I highly doubt Blade Storm procs from Piercing Blade - nothing does.
As I said, Thorn Ward's melee skill is trash if you're trying to run Blade Storm, go run something better than that, and you should not be using RoA with this build either. If you're building around Blade Storm you need to run a solid melee encounter setup. Unfortunately, I will admit that HRs have poor encounter choices in terms of variety. There's just about Fox Shift, Cordon for the melee skills, and not much else. I would suggest trying perhaps Longstrider's Shot or Hindering Strike and see if that helps, though because Combat doesn't have cooldown reduction, I don't think it'll help that much. It depends on how much of your total damage Thorn Ward really is.
It's a very situational build.
Blade Storm is terrible in boss fights because BS really only excels in AoE situations. You should be using something like Seeker's + Aspect of the Serpent for boss fights.
And my bad about the piercing blades damage percentage, I forgot you didn't say your ranged damage percentages (vaguely, but I glossed over it) and hence didn't take it into account.
Null damage in ACT should not be taken into account, it's data falsely generated and means nothing.
BS hits multiple targets, so you need to take that into account. I highly doubt Blade Storm procs from Piercing Blade - nothing does.
As I said, Thorn Ward's melee skill is trash if you're trying to run Blade Storm, go run something better than that, and you should not be using RoA with this build either. If you're building around Blade Storm you need to run a solid melee encounter setup. Unfortunately, I will admit that HRs have poor encounter choices in terms of variety. There's just about Fox Shift, Cordon for the melee skills, and not much else. I would suggest trying perhaps Longstrider's Shot or Hindering Strike and see if that helps, though because Combat doesn't have cooldown reduction, I don't think it'll help that much. It depends on how much of your total damage Thorn Ward really is.
It's a very situational build.
Blade Storm is terrible in boss fights because BS really only excels in AoE situations. You should be using something like Seeker's + Aspect of the Serpent for boss fights.
And my bad about the piercing blades damage percentage, I forgot you didn't say your ranged damage percentages (vaguely, but I glossed over it) and hence didn't take it into account.
Null damage in ACT should not be taken into account, it's data falsely generated and means nothing.
Thorn ward/strike has a 20-23% of dmg, the same as RoA+RoS, that's why i'll swap RoA with cordon. Now i use RoA to kill archers and spelcasters while my mele rotation i use for mele mobs and elites.
And thorn strike is good at least because of fast animation and short cooldown, so i trigger flurry faster and more often. and on very low hp bosses it can crit for more than fox can.
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
Sandy I respect your views but not every single HR wants to be forced into the Trapper path. I have so far resisted speccing into Trapper since it was released. I hate the idea of it and the path is nowhere near the hybrid playstyle we had in Mod 2. So what if we decide to gimp ourselves by playing Combat? So many people forget that some of us play this game for fun first and foremost; all the other stuff is secondary. I'll be the first to admit that Combat damage is pishpoor, but the path is by far the most fun to play in the HR class IMO and I make do with what I have.
Back on topic: I still can't seem to move away from Lone Wolf and Pack. Both just work in all situations, even if TBS and BS provide way more damage in certain scenarios.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
I never said I was forcing you to go Trapper; just that the Combat path is gimped, it was simply an acknowledgement. I know that alternate paths can be fun, I've tried all the paths myself and personally I really liked Archery, even though it's not viable in PvP. Also, sadly, the state of HR atm forces most people to go Trapper if they want to stay competitive in terms of DPS, and that's what my point is. Whether it's fun or not is irrelevant in what I'm saying - I'm just trying to get across what's most effective, and I've already acknowledged that both you and mayday are playing Combat, which is why my posts have mostly focused on what's more effective for Combat; the Trapper comments are just acknowledgements of facts because let's face it, Trapper is better than Combat in every aspect, which is honestly not how it should be.
If you're using RoA/Thorn Ward to that extent, I would honestly just go Archery if you don't want to go Trapper. RoA is very situational, because as soon as mobs move out of it, it does no damage, although it's not that hard to keep mobs inside of it. The really sad thing about HRs is, if 40-50% of your damage is actually coming from ranged when you're spec'd as Combat, what's the point of being Combat? It's the sad reality because Cryptic doesn't see how bad HR melee skills are for PvE, or where HR damage actually comes from (hint: Thorned Roots does more than any encounter ever does). Unfortunately, Trapper makes the class perform better than it actually is and hides how bad the class really is.
Yes, Thorned Strike *can* (sometimes) be okay, and Thorn Ward is a good encounter, but as I indirectly said, you won't be using the same encounters for single target and AoE fights most of the time. When I say swap Thorn Ward out, I mean swap it out in AoE fights, since you're clearing trying to discuss Blade Storm which is only effective in AoE fights because of the splash damage - as I mentioned before, it's a horrible skill in single target fights. You don't use the same encounters for both single target and AoE fights most of the time; you swap depending on what's best for the situation, and this is what I'm trying to get across to you.
So yes, use Thorned Strike/Thorn Ward in single target/boss fights, but swap it out for something more AoE-melee based when you're doing AoE fights.
Also if you're in a half-decent party, someone is going to have already burst down and killed that archer before RoA can do any decent damage. RoA is a skill for elite mobs/bosses, not for trash mobs (low hp mobs), because again, it's a DPS skill, not burst. You burst the trash mobs, you DPS the elite mobs.
1) If you're using RoA/Thorn Ward to that extent, I would honestly just go Archery if you don't want to go Trapper. RoA is very situational, because as soon as mobs move out of it, it does no damage, although it's not that hard to keep mobs inside of it. The really sad thing about HRs is, if 40-50% of your damage is actually coming from ranged when you're spec'd as Combat, what's the point of being Combat? It's the sad reality because Cryptic doesn't see how bad HR melee skills are for PvE, or where HR damage actually comes from (hint: Thorned Roots does more than any encounter ever does). Unfortunately, Trapper makes the class perform better than it actually is and hides how bad the class really is.
2) Yes, Thorned Strike *can* (sometimes) be okay, and Thorn Ward is a good encounter, but as I indirectly said, you won't be using the same encounters for single target and AoE fights most of the time. When I say swap Thorn Ward out, I mean swap it out in AoE fights, since you're clearing trying to discuss Blade Storm which is only effective in AoE fights because of the splash damage - as I mentioned before, it's a horrible skill in single target fights. You don't use the same encounters for both single target and AoE fights most of the time; you swap depending on what's best for the situation, and this is what I'm trying to get across to you.
3) So yes, use Thorned Strike/Thorn Ward in single target/boss fights, but swap it out for something more AoE-melee based when you're doing AoE fights.
4) Also if you're in a half-decent party, someone is going to have already burst down and killed that archer before RoA can do any decent damage. RoA is a skill for elite mobs/bosses, not for trash mobs (low hp mobs), because again, it's a DPS skill, not burst. You burst the trash mobs, you DPS the elite mobs.
1) I use that encs as openers, and sometimes, i do not use my full mele rotation. I'll definetly respec to archery to test it, 'cause you are somehow right. But, not 40-50%. the real part of range DMG is 30-36%, asuming that i start the fight with range encounters.
2) Thorn is better than RoA, there is nothin better in AoE then RoA exept thorn-fox-PG (for mele)
3) You are right, but there a no better encs.
4) If archers are boosted, i drop it on elites, depends on the situation.
The only decent encounters for a mele HR a those that deal DMG with the mele component: Marauder's Rush Hindering Strike (AoE) Rain of Swords (AoE) Thorn Strike (AoE) Steel Breeze (AoE) Boar Charge Fox's Shift (AoE) Gushing Wound Plant Growth (AoE)
Maradeur and Boar are used in PvP only. Hindering has the same DMG as Thorn, but is a circular AoE with 1.5sec of control RoS is a slow mele encounter with a semiburst/DPS RoA (and RoA deals a lot of DMG no matter what build you have. i manage to do 20% of the dmg with this encounter on dragons) Thorn is a fast frontal AoE with decent DMG and with a good range component. Steel Breeze ??? Low DMG, useless Constricting. Fox is the best of the best PG seems to be better than Fox, with high DMG and short animation.
Chose 3 of them for a mele.
I will choose these ones that a good both, in mele and range stances, so Fox+PG+RoS/Thorn. there are no better options for aoe, and the only encounter to swap on bossfight is PG for Gushing.
And about class features: If there is no need to slot Aspect of the pack or lone wolf then the only good ones for trash is Twinblade and BS, while for solo targets: Seeker's + BS/Serpent. IMO.
I'll try to test Serpent and BS on solo targets. the only issure is that i have no serpent upped. The way i want to do this is to run 20 full rotations on a dummy with serpent and 20 with BS and compare the dmg done.
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
Hindering has the same DMG as Thorn, but is a circular AoE with 1.5sec of control
You are wrong. The tooltips are misleading. Thorn Ward hits for about 4k (non-crit) every 1.5-2 seconds I think it is. With a 100% up-time the damage is way more than what you get out of Hindering Shot.
And about class features: If there is no need to slot Aspect of the pack or lone wolf then the only good ones for trash is Twinblade and BS, while for solo targets: Seeker's + BS/Serpent. IMO.
I'm pretty sure Combat Advantage provides far more damage for you, and the party, with Aspect of the Pack than Blade Storm ever will. Whether single target or AoE I prefer to have a 100% up-time of CA because there are times when GF/GWF won't provide mark for CA. Lone Wolf is just a personal choice, although I am well aware I could be doing 16% more damage with TBS.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
You are wrong. The tooltips are misleading. Thorn Ward hits for about 4k (non-crit) every 1.5-2 seconds I think it is. With a 100% up-time the damage is way more than what you get out of Hindering Shot.
I'm pretty sure Combat Advantage provides far more damage for you, and the party, with Aspect of the Pack than Blade Storm ever will. Whether single target or AoE I prefer to have a 100% up-time of CA because there are times when GF/GWF won't provide mark for CA. Lone Wolf is just a personal choice, although I am well aware I could be doing 16% more damage with TBS.
Hindering Strike, not shot. hindering shot is way too weak if to compare with thorn ward, while both mele components seem to be the same in DMG terms.
You are wrong. The tooltips are misleading. Thorn Ward hits for about 4k (non-crit) every 1.5-2 seconds I think it is. With a 100% up-time the damage is way more than what you get out of Hindering Shot.
I'm pretty sure Combat Advantage provides far more damage for you, and the party, with Aspect of the Pack than Blade Storm ever will. Whether single target or AoE I prefer to have a 100% up-time of CA because there are times when GF/GWF won't provide mark for CA. Lone Wolf is just a personal choice, although I am well aware I could be doing 16% more damage with TBS.
Hindering Strike, not shot. hindering shot is way too weak if to compare with thorn ward, while both mele components seem to be the same in DMG terms.
BS feat appears to be good addition to me, i use it with Serpent (with Serpent Bite)
I used TBS, it was better than nothing but less effective than BS. I got enough power points and after respec i invested into 4/4 BS which works fine.
CA (25% base bonus) from Aspect of Pack is great, but you can go into CA state by proper 180 degree positioning. Consider that Trapper has be in middle of fight and it certainly easier for him to archive CA than for some Ranger HR attacking from fixed distance. HR can have CA, Serpent and BS, all of them working in same time. In addition, Aspect of Pack has no use in solo with augment companions and little effect with certain no-tanking companions. With tanking companion you can archive CA in solo without Aspect of Pack, it is matter of practice.
CA (25% base bonus) from Aspect of Pack is great, but you can go into CA state by proper 180 degree positioning. Consider that Trapper has be in middle of fight and it certainly easier for him to archive CA than for some Ranger HR attacking from fixed distance. HR can have CA, Serpent and BS, all of them working in same time. In addition, Aspect of Pack has no use in solo with augment companions and little effect with certain no-tanking companions. With tanking companion you can archive CA in solo without Aspect of Pack, it is matter of practice.
The thing is, you can't always get CA from positioning (i.e. dragons = suicide attacking from the rear) or from party buffs (GF/GWF doesn't always have mark up on your target), so Pack is excellent for those occasions - not to mention the benefits soloing with a companion getting free CA. The damage is massive. And, to be honest, positioning means absolutely nothing to me as a Trapper. All I care about is my enemy's positioning - so long as they're close enough to all get rooted, or close enough that I can Cordon them in order to ensure they're all rooted, that's it. I could otherwise care less if I'm in front of them, behind them, or flanking them. And quite frankly, taking the time to run around behind them after they've been rooted wastes precious seconds that the root holds them, and lessens my dps when I can just slot Pack and be done with it.
That said, for Combat or Archery, positioning is much more critical in order to maximize dps. One of these days, I'm going to spend a weekend on test playing with BS in Combat tree. Maybe with a nice Greater Lightning or stronger. That could be quite fun for trash clearing. Maybe after next 2x refinement weekend.
Anyways, I think Ralexinor summed it up quite succintly above. BS's value lowers to nil vs bosses, so it's one of those class powers that excels in AoEs, but should be switched out vs bosses (Seeker's comes to mind).
You make it sound harder to position yourself (as a trapper) for CA than it actually is. On paper it sounds hard, in reality its super easy. And if you run seekers vengeance then thats another reason not to run pack. Also control wizards can grant CA. Also many TR try to get behind the enemy which grants CA. Also fighting behind a dragon is not suicide, but it is risky. Everything is situational, and I am happy that we have the kind of flexability that we have. But I am finding AotP useless more often than useful these days.
CA (25% base bonus) from Aspect of Pack is great, but you can go into CA state by proper 180 degree positioning. Consider that Trapper has be in middle of fight and it certainly easier for him to archive CA than for some Ranger HR attacking from fixed distance. HR can have CA, Serpent and BS, all of them working in same time. In addition, Aspect of Pack has no use in solo with augment companions and little effect with certain no-tanking companions. With tanking companion you can archive CA in solo without Aspect of Pack, it is matter of practice.
Why bother with all that movement and positioning when Pack instantly grants CA with any companion? I have no issues with any of my companions not giving CA, and that includes Blink Dog, Young Yeti, War Dog and Shadow Demon. I maintain that no other feat will grant as much damage with near 100% up-time as Pack. As was pointed out, not every party has a TR/GWF/CW/GF that provides CA all the time, but I do as long as I have a party member near me which is all the time. I always try to maximise my CA damage as I have the class feature on my OH, which provides even more damage for me, up to 8% extra. Speaking as Archer/Combat - cba about Trapper.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
As stated its situatuional, also as stated it's not any kind of bother at all. And if you dont want to move much then you probably shouldn't be playing trapper anyway.
My response was in regards to the comment from the trapper perspective made by @aaramis75. I have 0 experience in this game for the other trees.
It's oviously each person's choice how they want to play. My point is if you are concerned with maximizing your damage from CA, or just damage in general, in my experience in most, nearly all cases, parties will have CA from other sources. At that point pack is doing nothing for you or anyone else and you will be better off slotting something else. You are worried about losing a really nice bonus from outlier situations. I'd rather have the same bonus plus SV for example, and if for whatever reason we are having difficulties getting CA... THEN slot pack.
I will put it this way, if you are a trapper just experiment and try running without pack for a few days. My personal experience is thats its very rare that the party does not have CA. If you use fox shift(popular) you will be all up in the business anyway, which often sticks you behind the majority of the mob... and guess what you have... CA.
To each their own, I guess. My experience is that CA isn't a guarantee fighting trash, especially if there's several groups of them at once. For those, Pack is stellar.
Against a single boss, that's a different matter, and for those fights I do tend to slot Seekers.
For what it's worth, I play an incredibly mobile Trapper.
lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
Even my Archer always runs with Pack, along with TBS, which I would change out for boss fights but what other real options are there? I'll slot Seeker's Vengeance on last boss in eToS but it can't really be employed with great success anywhere else.
Another good option for Combat, which I used for a long time, is Stormstep Action, but only in conjunction with Disruptive Shot, whose AP use and CD is low enough to benefit from the reduction often.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Comments
and: PG-CtG-Fox-CtG-Thorned Strike-CtG is fast enough and is a real burst of DMG, All the At-Will DMG of a Combat comes from cap feat, and not from CtG spam, spamming CtG is worth only when all 6 encounters are in cooldown, and this is rarely happening.
”so you have to wait for the procs to happen” - there is not such a thing as wait to happen for a random event. It happens or it not happens, no matter how long you ”wait” for it. You can trigger BS in the first 2-3 swing and not to trigger the last 2-3 swings and vice-versa, but you have not to wait for the effect. As for crits, do you wait them? or just crit or not crit? You are right only about the fact, that it is possible for BS not to be triggered when it is needed, but this is real for any random events in the game (and for crits too).
Also, this disscusion is not about how combat SW HR is useless in curent meta, but, is the boost in dps from blade storm worth the slot on the panel, and if not, what is better.
Compared to crit damage, BS' damage is negligible so your comparison of the chance effects between them is irrelevant.
I'm assuming if you're using Rapid Strike you're combat, because trapper won't have time to use it in between rotations if you want to be effective (unless you're using Plant Growth in a single target fight, which you shouldn't be because it's grossly ineffective).
Using a rotation such as PG-CTG-Fox-CTG-Thorned Strike-CTG if you're Trapper is ineffective - damage is from encounters and Thorned Roots, at-wills are extremely negligible. So I'm going to assume you're talking Combat purely, though as I said, if you're going for DPS, Trapper is the only way atm to be competitive.
Anyhow, HRs have a few damage feats worth noting:
- Aspect of the Serpent (12% damage per stack, 24% at 2 stacks; if Trapper, 5% more per stack and 2.5% crit chance per stack)
- Stormwarden: Twin-Blade Storm (16% damage when hitting more than 2 targets)
- Seeker's Vengeance (19% back-attack damage)
- Stormwarden: Blade Storm (25% chance to deal 20% AoE damage)
Alright, so let's assume you're Stormwarden first. You have a choice between 4 damage feats, since Crushing Roots is absurdly bad for Combat.
In AoE/mob fights, if we assume 5 targets in favourable positions:
- AotS will give you a *maximum* bonus of 24%, but more often than not it will only give you 0% or 12%, due to being Combat.
- Twin-Blade Storm will give a constant bonus of 16%, unless you use Thorn Ward.
- Seeker's Vengeance will give 19% on at least 1 hit of Fox Shift, and can be a constant bonus if you play correctly.
- Blade Storm will give 100% damage boost at a 25% chance (20% * 5) for melee skills = 25% damage boost overall on melee skills.
In single target/boss fights, if we assume one target:
- AotS will give you a maximum bonus of 24%, but more often than not, 0% or 12% unless you use Rain of Arrows + Thorn Ward.
- Twin-Blade Storm will do nothing.
- Seeker's Vengeance will be almost 100% uptime for a 19% damage boost unless you cannot get behind the boss.
- Blade Storm will give a 20% damage boost at 25% chance = 5% damage boost on melee skills.
Also, take into account that Blade Storm most likely WILL NOT proc off the capstone because the capstone is piercing damage and is thus not accounted for as true damage, which is what things proc off. I don't know this for sure, but if I know the game mechanics, which I would like to think I do, then I'm mostly likely right.
Anyway, from this theoretical stuffs, Blade Storm and Twin-Blade Storm are best for AoE dealing (again, targets/you will need to be in a favourable position, but that's not something I can help you with), with Seeker's Vengeance and AotS for single target/boss fights. Again, if you're doing single target you should be using Pathfinder and not Stormwarden.
Blade Storm does have potential; I vaguely remember testing it for PvP a year or two ago, but Combat never was up to the same standards as Trapper was ever since Module 5.
Also if you're Trapper, the only feats you should be using are AotS always, and either Crushing Roots/Seeker's Vengeance and possibly Twin-Blade Storm if you're SW, but I don't know if TBS works on Thorned Roots damage.
you have some mistakes in you calculations. Anyway, generaly you are right. But:
"Also, take into account that Blade Storm most likely WILL NOT proc off the capstone because the capstone is piercing damage"
I runed a test and as i understood, BS procs from Piercing Blades (and can proc multiple times as well).
"capstone is piercing damage", you are wrong, it is not piercing, piercing is from another feat. BS procs from the capfeat.
"Blade Storm will give 100% damage boost at a 25% chance (20% * 5) for melee skills = 25% damage boost overall on melee skills."
if there are 5 targets, you have a 76% chance for BS to proc at least once and a 0.0009 to proc 5 times at once.
In my ACT runs, BS has a 6% average DMG, it is higher than Thorn Strike (4%) and Blade Strom (4-6%), and CtG too (4%)
While Piercing Blades (14-16%) and Blade Hurricane (10-12%) have a total of about 26%, Fox Shift has 15-20%
So, from mele i do 60% of dmg and aditional 5-6% with blade storm, the other 35% are done in range stance.
6% from BS will be a 10% DMG bost in mele, asuming that my act runs include trash and solo targets (bosses too) that die not too fast (a full rotation + 1-3 CtG needed to kill trash).
And 'cause of capfeat an piercing blades we do a lot of discret hits, even a 5% chance can not be neglated.
Can you read tooltips? Blade Storm deals 20% damage in an AoE = if targets are close enough, you will hit 5 targets max with the splash effect. That is the only reason why Blade Storm has a possibility to be viable. If it was only additional damage to a single target, then it's worthless.
Also I am going to say this - if Piercing Blades is only 14-16% of your damage as Combat, you are building or playing the class wrong.
Additionally, since you are using Thorn Ward, you are seriously gimping yourself with the build you are attempting. If you are going to use Blade Storm, then you need to use skills that work with it - Thorn Strike is a trash melee encounter. From your posts, I'm going to assume you use Fox Shift, Thorn Ward and Cordon of Arrows. Fox Shift and Cordon are good choices and while Thorn Ward is a really good ranged skill, you need to swap it out if you want to use Blade Storm to its maximum effect, because the melee version is absolute trash.
Also I said, Piercing Blades is piercing damage and hence you shouldn't be getting procs off it, but I could be wrong and Blade Storm works differently to every other damage type in the game.
My honest opinion? Run Twin-Blade Storm + whatever you want for trash clearing, and AotS + Seeker's Vengeance for boss fights. But imo, Pathfinder is going to be better for single target no matter what you do. And Combat will never compete with Trapper for damage until they buff the class and do some path reworks.
2) My total mele DMG is ~66%, 16% of this DMG is piercing, so, piercing is ~32% aditional dmg from my mele dmg only, what's wrong? (34% of my dmg usualy a done in range stance, piercing does not work in range)
3) Do not asume anything
I use thorn, RoA and fox, i will swap RoA or thorn with cordon when i'll up it. And notice that RoS is a trash encounter too, so i'll go for fox-cordon-ward. I thin Hindering can be good, but the range constituent is too bad for me, while ward i love for Thorn Ward component.
4) There are a lot of lifesteals of 2-10 hp now when i can crit for 10k, this can be only from a piercind made by a BS made by another piercing made by CtG. Also there are a lot of null DMG in ACT.
Andd, from about 4000 swings, 1300 are from BS and 700 from piercing. So, if we exclude BS, there are 2700 swings to trigger BS, and if we have 1300 BS swings, it means that 48% of swings triggered BS. (I am realy confused about this)
5) I run with lone wolf and BS, and search for a metod to test twinblade.
For boss ill try Seeker's and BS.
Also, take a look at min and max dmg of BS and piercing (in the screenshots on the 1st page). those numbers are interesting too.
As I said, Thorn Ward's melee skill is trash if you're trying to run Blade Storm, go run something better than that, and you should not be using RoA with this build either. If you're building around Blade Storm you need to run a solid melee encounter setup. Unfortunately, I will admit that HRs have poor encounter choices in terms of variety. There's just about Fox Shift, Cordon for the melee skills, and not much else. I would suggest trying perhaps Longstrider's Shot or Hindering Strike and see if that helps, though because Combat doesn't have cooldown reduction, I don't think it'll help that much. It depends on how much of your total damage Thorn Ward really is.
It's a very situational build.
Blade Storm is terrible in boss fights because BS really only excels in AoE situations. You should be using something like Seeker's + Aspect of the Serpent for boss fights.
And my bad about the piercing blades damage percentage, I forgot you didn't say your ranged damage percentages (vaguely, but I glossed over it) and hence didn't take it into account.
Null damage in ACT should not be taken into account, it's data falsely generated and means nothing.
Now i use RoA to kill archers and spelcasters while my mele rotation i use for mele mobs and elites.
And thorn strike is good at least because of fast animation and short cooldown, so i trigger flurry faster and more often. and on very low hp bosses it can crit for more than fox can.
Back on topic: I still can't seem to move away from Lone Wolf and Pack. Both just work in all situations, even if TBS and BS provide way more damage in certain scenarios.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
If you're using RoA/Thorn Ward to that extent, I would honestly just go Archery if you don't want to go Trapper. RoA is very situational, because as soon as mobs move out of it, it does no damage, although it's not that hard to keep mobs inside of it. The really sad thing about HRs is, if 40-50% of your damage is actually coming from ranged when you're spec'd as Combat, what's the point of being Combat? It's the sad reality because Cryptic doesn't see how bad HR melee skills are for PvE, or where HR damage actually comes from (hint: Thorned Roots does more than any encounter ever does). Unfortunately, Trapper makes the class perform better than it actually is and hides how bad the class really is.
Yes, Thorned Strike *can* (sometimes) be okay, and Thorn Ward is a good encounter, but as I indirectly said, you won't be using the same encounters for single target and AoE fights most of the time. When I say swap Thorn Ward out, I mean swap it out in AoE fights, since you're clearing trying to discuss Blade Storm which is only effective in AoE fights because of the splash damage - as I mentioned before, it's a horrible skill in single target fights. You don't use the same encounters for both single target and AoE fights most of the time; you swap depending on what's best for the situation, and this is what I'm trying to get across to you.
So yes, use Thorned Strike/Thorn Ward in single target/boss fights, but swap it out for something more AoE-melee based when you're doing AoE fights.
Also if you're in a half-decent party, someone is going to have already burst down and killed that archer before RoA can do any decent damage. RoA is a skill for elite mobs/bosses, not for trash mobs (low hp mobs), because again, it's a DPS skill, not burst. You burst the trash mobs, you DPS the elite mobs.
I'll definetly respec to archery to test it, 'cause you are somehow right.
But, not 40-50%. the real part of range DMG is 30-36%, asuming that i start the fight with range encounters.
2) Thorn is better than RoA, there is nothin better in AoE then RoA exept thorn-fox-PG (for mele)
3) You are right, but there a no better encs.
4) If archers are boosted, i drop it on elites, depends on the situation.
The only decent encounters for a mele HR a those that deal DMG with the mele component:
Marauder's Rush
Hindering Strike (AoE)
Rain of Swords (AoE)
Thorn Strike (AoE)
Steel Breeze (AoE)
Boar Charge
Fox's Shift (AoE)
Gushing Wound
Plant Growth (AoE)
Maradeur and Boar are used in PvP only.
Hindering has the same DMG as Thorn, but is a circular AoE with 1.5sec of control
RoS is a slow mele encounter with a semiburst/DPS RoA (and RoA deals a lot of DMG no matter what build you have. i manage to do 20% of the dmg with this encounter on dragons)
Thorn is a fast frontal AoE with decent DMG and with a good range component.
Steel Breeze ??? Low DMG, useless Constricting.
Fox is the best of the best
PG seems to be better than Fox, with high DMG and short animation.
Chose 3 of them for a mele.
I will choose these ones that a good both, in mele and range stances, so Fox+PG+RoS/Thorn. there are no better options for aoe, and the only encounter to swap on bossfight is PG for Gushing.
And about class features:
If there is no need to slot Aspect of the pack or lone wolf then the only good ones for trash is Twinblade and BS, while for solo targets: Seeker's + BS/Serpent. IMO.
I'll try to test Serpent and BS on solo targets. the only issure is that i have no serpent upped.
The way i want to do this is to run 20 full rotations on a dummy with serpent and 20 with BS and compare the dmg done.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
And abouts aspects:
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
I used TBS, it was better than nothing but less effective than BS. I got enough power points and after respec i invested into 4/4 BS which works fine.
CA (25% base bonus) from Aspect of Pack is great, but you can go into CA state by proper 180 degree positioning. Consider that Trapper has be in middle of fight and it certainly easier for him to archive CA than for some Ranger HR attacking from fixed distance. HR can have CA, Serpent and BS, all of them working in same time. In addition, Aspect of Pack has no use in solo with augment companions and little effect with certain no-tanking companions. With tanking companion you can archive CA in solo without Aspect of Pack, it is matter of practice.
— (The unwritten rule)
And, to be honest, positioning means absolutely nothing to me as a Trapper. All I care about is my enemy's positioning - so long as they're close enough to all get rooted, or close enough that I can Cordon them in order to ensure they're all rooted, that's it. I could otherwise care less if I'm in front of them, behind them, or flanking them. And quite frankly, taking the time to run around behind them after they've been rooted wastes precious seconds that the root holds them, and lessens my dps when I can just slot Pack and be done with it.
That said, for Combat or Archery, positioning is much more critical in order to maximize dps. One of these days, I'm going to spend a weekend on test playing with BS in Combat tree. Maybe with a nice Greater Lightning or stronger. That could be quite fun for trash clearing. Maybe after next 2x refinement weekend.
Anyways, I think Ralexinor summed it up quite succintly above. BS's value lowers to nil vs bosses, so it's one of those class powers that excels in AoEs, but should be switched out vs bosses (Seeker's comes to mind).
SoonerGM - HR Trapper
Haven - Righteous Cleric
Ethereal Justice - OP Paladin
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
My response was in regards to the comment from the trapper perspective made by @aaramis75. I have 0 experience in this game for the other trees.
It's oviously each person's choice how they want to play. My point is if you are concerned with maximizing your damage from CA, or just damage in general, in my experience in most, nearly all cases, parties will have CA from other sources. At that point pack is doing nothing for you or anyone else and you will be better off slotting something else. You are worried about losing a really nice bonus from outlier situations. I'd rather have the same bonus plus SV for example, and if for whatever reason we are having difficulties getting CA... THEN slot pack.
I will put it this way, if you are a trapper just experiment and try running without pack for a few days. My personal experience is thats its very rare that the party does not have CA. If you use fox shift(popular) you will be all up in the business anyway, which often sticks you behind the majority of the mob... and guess what you have... CA.
SoonerGM - HR Trapper
Haven - Righteous Cleric
Ethereal Justice - OP Paladin
Against a single boss, that's a different matter, and for those fights I do tend to slot Seekers.
For what it's worth, I play an incredibly mobile Trapper.
But we're digressing.
Another good option for Combat, which I used for a long time, is Stormstep Action, but only in conjunction with Disruptive Shot, whose AP use and CD is low enough to benefit from the reduction often.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.