It's that time again: Epic Cragmire Crypts - Two-manned. Concerns about dungeon difficulty.

katbozejziemi

blinxon said:

katbozejziemi said:

By the way, I did those things before. They have nothing to do with skill and everything to do with your gear and proper class build.

Wot things did you before? In which module? Kindergarden modul 5?

You're HAMSTER if you think anything's changed since mod 5 except for the number of digits in damage numbers.
This thread is a proof of it.

blinxon

So you did nothing. Ok. Thx for your polite answer.

fontanaelunae

Congratulations!

Now, the discussion about difficulty has been going on since a while. To me it seems, that we simply need a new layer of difficulty for highly geared and dedicated players.

I wonder what percentage of the player base is above 2,6 k IL ... 3 K IL ... ? And you also need to consider companions an their gear... what a proportion of the player base has, for instance, 5 epic companions? ... Perfect bonding stones? ...

Besides skill and gear another aspect is communication. How many players do not belong to lively guilds? How many do not communicate per voice?

An evening in random queues will let you feel clearly how much difficulty depends on these aspects. Thus, our current t1 and t2 dungeons are by no means too easy for (probably?) the majority of players... While i concede there is a smaller group, that would need t3 dungeons to feel challenged...Hopefully when dungeons (finally!) return, you get some of those!

Wish you all nice holidays! :-)

darkstarcrash

Yeah, when thefabricant says he's at ~2.7k ilvl, and then mentions perfect bonding runestones on his companion -- well, that shows his characters are not like the average "PUG" 2.7k character.

ilvl ignores all the gear and enchantments on your companion, your boons (those with high level SH boons will have very different stat totals), the boosts from all your active companions...

I don't have a problem with requesting one or two T3 dungeons, but T2 is still hard enough for most players, so I don't agree with asking to boost existing dungeons' difficulty.

mrshabok

@ironzerg79 I do agree with pretty much everything you said. Really wish the dungeon rewards were higher but I have hopes for the future.

@micky1p00 I know what game you mean. I played that game for a long time and it's a horrible MMO, if you can even call it that, but has a lot of other things going for it, specifically dungeon/raid design. This game is a fantastic MMO that could benefit from another dungeon mechanic aside from killing bullet sponges with different skins.

instynctive

I've had the privilege of running with Isaac in the past. Not only is he a super good sport about everything, but he brings a TON of heal and damage to the table... and an equal amount of patience and humility. Super good guy, super good player.

I'm not surprised that he and Sharpedge duo'd eCC. I am surprised that he hasn't already solo'd it.

Every time I see a "GWF does too much damage" thread, all I can think of is how badly Isaac out-DPSs my GWF.


Cheers to a great run!

thefabricant

instynctive said:

I've had the privilege of running with Isaac in the past. Not only is he a super good sport about everything, but he brings a TON of heal and damage to the table... and an equal amount of patience and humility. Super good guy, super good player.

I'm not surprised that he and Sharpedge duo'd eCC. I am surprised that he hasn't already solo'd it.

Every time I see a "GWF does too much damage" thread, all I can think of is how badly Isaac out-DPSs my GWF.


Cheers to a great run!

The devotion paladin's dps has been significantly reduced, they now hit for like 25% of what they used to. He could probably solo it on OP, but it would take a very, very, long time. Also, the strength of a devotion paladin scales off the number of friendly entities in the instance, which is why he had an active companion rather then his cat mr meow-guy.

jaegernl

instynctive said:

I've had the privilege of running with Isaac in the past. Not only is he a super good sport about everything, but he brings a TON of heal and damage to the table... and an equal amount of patience and humility. Super good guy, super good player.

I'm not surprised that he and Sharpedge duo'd eCC. I am surprised that he hasn't already solo'd it.

Every time I see a "GWF does too much damage" thread, all I can think of is how badly Isaac out-DPSs my GWF.


Cheers to a great run!

Thanks for the kind words and the vote of confidence!

Anyway, as Sharp mentioned, the Devotion OP's damage potential has been drasticly reduced in the last few patches. We all knew it was coming and it was well-deserved. We were healers, not strikers. We still bring plenty of healing and, when geared, a reasonable tank, though. And, with even more gear, the damage isn't bad either, but I wont be out-damaging anyone anymore .

I think Sharp and I both feel a solo run is the next step. I'm just not sure my current state would make it viable. I'd really need a survivable companion to bounce heals on. Anyone know how well Yeti does with Bonding Stones? - calling @thefabricant here. My biggest fear - since my damage used to be and my healing still is reliant on the amount of allies - is that it would take forever and then some. Sharp made a bit of a joke about posting the whole thing on YouTube, because he was really - *cough* - looking forward to a 5-day video.

blinxon

Yeti is by far the best companion if you need a tank pet. The gift wont come so fast, but the yeti is very hard to kill. So i think Yeti as tank for eCC should be good enough for you to try eCC solo. Wish you luck.

thefabricant

jaegernl said:

instynctive said:

I've had the privilege of running with Isaac in the past. Not only is he a super good sport about everything, but he brings a TON of heal and damage to the table... and an equal amount of patience and humility. Super good guy, super good player.

I'm not surprised that he and Sharpedge duo'd eCC. I am surprised that he hasn't already solo'd it.

Every time I see a "GWF does too much damage" thread, all I can think of is how badly Isaac out-DPSs my GWF.


Cheers to a great run!

Thanks for the kind words and the vote of confidence!

Anyway, as Sharp mentioned, the Devotion OP's damage potential has been drasticly reduced in the last few patches. We all knew it was coming and it was well-deserved. We were healers, not strikers. We still bring plenty of healing and, when geared, a reasonable tank, though. And, with even more gear, the damage isn't bad either, but I wont be out-damaging anyone anymore .

I think Sharp and I both feel a solo run is the next step. I'm just not sure my current state would make it viable. I'd really need a survivable companion to bounce heals on. Anyone know how well Yeti does with Bonding Stones? - calling @thefabricant here. My biggest fear - since my damage used to be and my healing still is reliant on the amount of allies - is that it would take forever and then some. Sharp made a bit of a joke about posting the whole thing on YouTube, because he was really - *cough* - looking forward to a 5-day video.

As blinxon says, its not the best for bonding procs but it is an excellent tank companion. With that being said, I would really like to see a series entitled "Isaac in eCC." You can cut it down into 30 minute segments and upload them day by day...then we can have an NWO dungeon solo series. You can have some cheesy intro music and credits at the end, always finishing with, "next time, on Isaac in eCC"

tassedethe13

ironzerg79 said:

And hopefully with what they have planned for new dungeon content in Module 9, the difficulty bar will be raised a couple more notches, and players will be challenged again, just like when the revamped dungeons did when Mod 6 launched.

@ironzerg79 Where did you take this information from? Can you share with us your source?

blinxon

I think ironzerg is just hoping that they will bring new content in module 9 that is harder than modul 8. No one really knows now if this is true or not. I think no one knows what surprises devs will make in module 9.

ironzerg79

tassedethe13 said:

ironzerg79 said:

And hopefully with what they have planned for new dungeon content in Module 9, the difficulty bar will be raised a couple more notches, and players will be challenged again, just like when the revamped dungeons did when Mod 6 launched.

@ironzerg79 Where did you take this information from? Can you share with us your source?

It was mentioned here by Strumslinger:

strumslinger said:

I can confirm that they will be coming back.

And there was an AMA on Reddit where the devs commented several times that they'd be back in an upcoming update, and we'll have more information early in the new year.

It hasn't been stated explicitly, but I have to believe the reason they're taking so long is because they not only need to be updated to level 70, but balanced to challenge players 2500 iLevel and above. It doesn't make any sense to release them at 2000 iLevel and drop already near obsolete equipment.

instynctive

I, too, have to vote for the Yeti as a tank. I've got mine ranked up to purple, and he's every bit as good a tank as most of the tank players that I run with. I just have to be cognizant of when he does go down, to distance myself from mobs for the few moments that it takes him to auto-revive.

Well, I used to. Fortunately, my GWF is geared enough to be able to take a few hits.

"Bloodthirsty" is a handy thing to have proc. Plus it makes you get bigger, and that's just cool.

tassedethe13

@ironzerg79 Thanks for the source.

I had already read this thread but i didn't understood that they were upgrading the difficulty. I understood that one day ( maybe tomorrow, maybe 8 another months) they will come back because they don't have the dev resources to allocate for a rework.

ironzerg79

If they intend to bring it out as "new" content in another module, they have to update the difficulty, right? That's my assumption...but I think it's logical and well-founded.

blinxon

ironzerg79 said:

If they intend to bring it out as "new" content in another module, they have to update the difficulty, right? That's my assumption...but I think it's logical and well-founded.

Yes. Its logical...but we saw what happened with modul 6. It was really hard at the beginning and sadly we got this DR bug. I was really glad when they fixed this bug, but why did they scale the difficulty so much down in the same time? Cuzz all our "casuals" cried that this game is to hard...But even after making it easy you got 9 from 10 runs in Cragmuire they asking at last boss "Your a CW. You can bug him?" If i read such things i leave grp. Or if i say it at the beginning that i dont bug i get kicked. I hope ( if modul 9 brings new content) they dont listen again to this ( sry...) crybabies.

tassedethe13

Sometimes comon sense is not so common !

For example: Better rings ( +3,+4,+5) in Normal Demogorgon than in Epic Demogorgon.

Let's hope that module 9 will be a FULL module (new map, new dungeon + the old one, new skirmish) , because module 8 should have brought at least the double of the content it has brought, and is for me half of a module.

grimah

This thread is a bit ridiculous.

The dungeon itself is at the correct difficult, if not too hard. It is designed to be done after T1, before you acquired T2 gear.

This game just doesn't have enough dungeon content to cater towards higher geared players, you would a set of dungeons for 2-3k, 3-4k, 4k etc etc.

Then there is class balancing, where some classes just make things too easy. An officer in my guild sent out a mail saying that the skill level of our members have dropped dramatically due to the reliance of OP tanks, and that people need to step up their game when not using them.

ironzerg79

I was talking about this with @kolatmaster. There's definitely some things in the game right now that are clearly overpowered, resulting in content actually being a lot easier than it should be, particularly for those extremely well-geared.

1) The Lostmauth set is one of them. It's resulting in groups doing 20-30% more damage than they should be doing, for no extra effort. It's unbelievably broken, yet so many people depend on it, I can understand why the Devs are reluctant to address it.

2) Bonding Runestones are a bit out of control now. R12 for 95% stat bonus times 3 is giving people astronomically high stats. Combines with the fact that the cooldowns reset when your companion dies and revives. This leads to another substantial and probably unintentional power jump. I'm not sure if the Devs are actually aware of this, despite it being reported. But it should be addressed.

3) Action Point gain is pretty ridiculous at this point, as well. Allowing most classes the possibility of always being under the effects of a daily power is broken as well. The most notable example is the OP's permabubble, which combined with other effects essentially makes a party immune to damage. We know the GF was nerfed to not gain AP while under the effects of certain dailies. I think this should probably extend to all classes and all dailies.

Anyway, those are my big things right now. If those issues were addressed, dungeon content, as well as Demogorgon would get more difficult, particularly for higher iLevel players who rely on the above to a much greater extend than you average player, myself included.

vinceent1

devs reluctant to address lostmauth set? i dont think so. there are more overpowered things in game than this. they simply release something even stronger next module to make it obsolete (they dont do it with underdark)

ironzerg79

vinceent1 said:

devs reluctant to address lostmauth set? i dont think so. there are more overpowered things in game than this. they simply release something even stronger next module to make it obsolete (they dont do it with underdark)

They can't make it obsolete without changing it. It scales with your stats. The more powerful characters become, the more damage the Lostmauth set will do. That's a major part of the problem.

It will never be obsolete, unless they add something utterly ridiculous to the game to top it...

EDIT: And there is nothing in the game that's more powerful than the Lostmauth set...or at least not something that doesn't bring it's own trade-offs or is available to every single player.

vinceent1

ironzerg79 said:

vinceent1 said:

devs reluctant to address lostmauth set? i dont think so. there are more overpowered things in game than this. they simply release something even stronger next module to make it obsolete (they dont do it with underdark)

They can't make it obsolete without changing it. It scales with your stats. The more powerful characters become, the more damage the Lostmauth set will do. That's a major part of the problem.

It will never be obsolete, unless they add something utterly ridiculous to the game to top it...

EDIT: And there is nothing in the game that's more powerful than the Lostmauth set...or at least not something that doesn't bring it's own trade-offs or is available to every single player.

i dont know what to say

where do you live? they release more and more ridiculous things every other module. its trend, its not like one lostmauth set is too much and rest things is good.

again, there are even more unbalanced things in the game which are even harder to get. maybe you dont see it from your pve perspective. elol set is relative easy to get (500 000 for horn). look at armor penetration mounts. they only drop from lockboxes and are over 4 milions AD on AH and if i know they are not account wide, so maybe you need more of them. and they do much bigger difference at pvp, than elol set at pve. at least pve is party goal to finish against not overpowered monsters. let alone underdark rings. again - elol set is not big problem in this game, dont need to be addressed urgently

tassedethe13

vinceent1 said:

ironzerg79 said:

vinceent1 said:

devs reluctant to address lostmauth set? i dont think so. there are more overpowered things in game than this. they simply release something even stronger next module to make it obsolete (they dont do it with underdark)

They can't make it obsolete without changing it. It scales with your stats. The more powerful characters become, the more damage the Lostmauth set will do. That's a major part of the problem.

It will never be obsolete, unless they add something utterly ridiculous to the game to top it...

EDIT: And there is nothing in the game that's more powerful than the Lostmauth set...or at least not something that doesn't bring it's own trade-offs or is available to every single player.

i dont know what to say

where do you live? they release more and more ridiculous things every other module. its trend, its not like one lostmauth set is too much and rest things is good.

again, there are even more unbalanced things in the game which are even harder to get. maybe you dont see it from your pve perspective. elol set is relative easy to get (500 000 for horn). look at armor penetration mounts. they only drop from lockboxes and are over 4 milions AD on AH and if i know they are not account wide, so maybe you need more of them. and they do much bigger difference at pvp, than elol set at pve. at least pve is party goal to finish against not overpowered monsters. let alone underdark rings. again - elol set is not big problem in this game, dont need to be addressed urgently

LOL Do you play a dps? Do you have lostmauth set? If so just remove it and feel the pain. K THX BYE.

ironzerg79

vinceent1 said:

ironzerg79 said:

vinceent1 said:

devs reluctant to address lostmauth set? i dont think so. there are more overpowered things in game than this. they simply release something even stronger next module to make it obsolete (they dont do it with underdark)

They can't make it obsolete without changing it. It scales with your stats. The more powerful characters become, the more damage the Lostmauth set will do. That's a major part of the problem.

It will never be obsolete, unless they add something utterly ridiculous to the game to top it...

EDIT: And there is nothing in the game that's more powerful than the Lostmauth set...or at least not something that doesn't bring it's own trade-offs or is available to every single player.

i dont know what to say

where do you live? they release more and more ridiculous things every other module. its trend, its not like one lostmauth set is too much and rest things is good.

again, there are even more unbalanced things in the game which are even harder to get. maybe you dont see it from your pve perspective. elol set is relative easy to get (500 000 for horn). look at armor penetration mounts. they only drop from lockboxes and are over 4 milions AD on AH and if i know they are not account wide, so maybe you need more of them. and they do much bigger difference at pvp, than elol set at pve. at least pve is party goal to finish against not overpowered monsters. let alone underdark rings. again - elol set is not big problem in this game, dont need to be addressed urgently

Oh...the old "BUT PVP!?!?" argument. PvP is a hot mess right now...I'd list everything wrong with it, but I'd like to spend time with my family between now and New Year's.

And you're wrong, even then. 4000 extra armor penetration is what...10% more damage in PvP? That's a drop in the bucket, honestly...and it only works IF a player has that much armor to mitigate in the first place. Protip: Most don't.

But PvE-wise, it's literally adding 20-40% more damage for a group, depending on the class...that's ridiculous. Imagine going into eDemogorgon or eGWD/CC with your group doing 1/3rd of the damage it is now...it'd be a totally different story.

vinceent1

once again, elol set is very cheap, almost every newbie in my guild has it so stop bitching about it, they only need to know about it (focus it as gearing priority). It makes pve too easy? yes, but it was always like that, remember CW gods during many modules? its standart here, i doubt it makes a dev attention. they probably working on something even stronger to force players regearing in the future and maybe rerelease some dungeon harder than what we have now. or not.

the second, pvp population is so tiny, so its nowhere near playing against these bis people rarely but very often. you can try play against GF with 13000 armor penetration and you will see the difference. gamebreaking difference. your lostmauth set is nowhere near gamebreaking .... everyone can have it easily

vinceent1

tassedethe13 said:

vinceent1 said:

ironzerg79 said:

vinceent1 said:

devs reluctant to address lostmauth set? i dont think so. there are more overpowered things in game than this. they simply release something even stronger next module to make it obsolete (they dont do it with underdark)

They can't make it obsolete without changing it. It scales with your stats. The more powerful characters become, the more damage the Lostmauth set will do. That's a major part of the problem.

It will never be obsolete, unless they add something utterly ridiculous to the game to top it...

EDIT: And there is nothing in the game that's more powerful than the Lostmauth set...or at least not something that doesn't bring it's own trade-offs or is available to every single player.

i dont know what to say

where do you live? they release more and more ridiculous things every other module. its trend, its not like one lostmauth set is too much and rest things is good.

again, there are even more unbalanced things in the game which are even harder to get. maybe you dont see it from your pve perspective. elol set is relative easy to get (500 000 for horn). look at armor penetration mounts. they only drop from lockboxes and are over 4 milions AD on AH and if i know they are not account wide, so maybe you need more of them. and they do much bigger difference at pvp, than elol set at pve. at least pve is party goal to finish against not overpowered monsters. let alone underdark rings. again - elol set is not big problem in this game, dont need to be addressed urgently

LOL Do you play a dps? Do you have lostmauth set? If so just remove it and feel the pain. K THX BYE.

why should i? everyone who know about his power can have it after month playing, so why should i be only one without it?

micky1p00

1. ArP is 100:1 or about 110:1 at high stats (it's not linear), so it's about 40% as a start.
2. A lot of builds go over the 80% hard cap, so you actually need to bypass the ArP Resistance and then start reducing to reach bellow the 80%. No way to do it without a lot of ArP.
I believe it was discussed a lot, I do not follow the PvP stuff, but I think ayroux made a lot of posts about it,
even long time ago:
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/563153/arp-ri-formula-by-gentlemancrush

I've yet to see elol set gives anyone 40% of the damage and there is no possibility whatsoever that it will add 40% dps for the whole group! on high end builds it's about ~15% for TRs, ~20% GWF, you should know better than me on CW, and even if it's 100% for OP/GF/DC group wise it's not over 15%.
For HR we will have a mutalisk soon, just for them, with damage on encounters.

elol set should be re-balanced, in PvE it's a must have now, to be anywhere 'competitive' for pure dps builds, but still lets not skew data, thats how heavy handed changes are born and things made totally useless.
It's became a norm for changes here to be extremely late, and like an extreme pendulum.

In general, set bonuses, especially for arti-gear is a short sighted move, they limit the builds and stat pick.
If anything those bonuses should be slotable, perhaps via special items drops or unlocked like the MH/OH bonuses again can be done via special items / crafting or other things (like the cubes unlock). So a mix of bonuses and gear can be done, and people can swap builds.

vinceent1

and about that elol set. GWF are dps machine now, HRs struggle with dps, but its not only about dps. If i run ELOL on my GF with two GWFs i trade one them for HR (who know what is fox) everytime without a tiny hesitation

thefabricant

micky1p00 said:

1. ArP is 100:1 or about 110:1 at high stats (it's not linear), so it's about 40% as a start.
2. A lot of builds go over the 80% hard cap, so you actually need to bypass the ArP Resistance and then start reducing to reach bellow the 80%. No way to do it without a lot of ArP.
I believe it was discussed a lot, I do not follow the PvP stuff, but I think ayroux made a lot of posts about it,
even long time ago:
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/563153/arp-ri-formula-by-gentlemancrush

I've yet to see elol set gives anyone 40% of the damage and there is no possibility whatsoever that it will add 40% dps for the whole group! on high end builds it's about ~15% for TRs, ~20% GWF, you should know better than me on CW, and even if it's 100% for OP/GF/DC group wise it's not over 15%.
For HR we will have a mutalisk soon, just for them, with damage on encounters.

elol set should be re-balanced, in PvE it's a must have now, to be anywhere 'competitive' for pure dps builds, but still lets not skew data, thats how heavy handed changes are born and things made totally useless.

micky, firstly I agree its not a 40% dps boost to the whole group however... in terms of adding a certain percentage, it might compose 15% of his dps, but that doesn't mean it added 15%.
Say person 1 does 100 damage and 15% of that is elol, so he does 85 damage without elol. To get from 85 to 100 damage, you need to boost your dps by 18%. Furthermore, in the situations where it composes say 22% of a classes damage ( in the case of my wizard) its a 28% dps boost over not having it. In the case of other players where its a bigger percentage of their damage, its also a bigger dps increase. In fact, if the lostmauth set accounts for 33% or more of your damage, it is a flat out 50% or more dps increase over not having it.