ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
@magenubbie I agree 100%. That's why I would jettison PvP and refocus my efforts on PvE. Listen to the players, make adjustments as needed and deliver the best possible PvE experience.
If they put out a poll that said would you rather:
A) Have all the dungeons put back in the game with fun mechanics and actual rewards
or
Balanced PvP matchmaking and classes
I'm sure A would win overwhelmingly. And that, in my mind, is exactly what they should do.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
I started writing something, but Ill just add this.
I have zero , ZERO trust in the game managers, nothing, nada, zil, zip, zippo. They have show a pattern of massive removal and nothing really giving back.
IF you are truly honest with yourself, do you find this game more fun since leadership removal? I know I do not , not at all.. Im stuck and forced to do one thing to progress..
A game that you cant PLAY to progress, isnt really a game.. not at all.
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torontodaveMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 992Arc User
Yes this may be the model.
Get them hooked on the 3 month 'this is superb! this game is fun!' plan, get them to buy some zen, then once they're addicted, they hit the 3-year slow drip..
NW-DSQ39N5SJ - 'To Infinity, and BEYOND!' - Spelljammer Quest. Skyships, Indiana Jones moments NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
Thanks for all the fish.
the reason why i want to get best in slot, problably this is why every gamer that plays and enjoys a game wants to get, let's be serious you won't play a game to be stuck at mission 1, just because you enjoy it being there, i for one , i want to get at the end game as fast as possible where other players are, so this thread /feedback is meant for that reason , road to end game.
Endgame is when you can complete all content. getting BiS is not required.
I've played this game on and off since beta, and im not BiS. Nor do I care, its not important. I've played tons of MMOs and getting hte best gear keeps you entertained for about a week then you get bored because you have nothing to do, and outgearing in PvP is only fun for a few moments unless you like winning with a handicap.
You spend most of your time progressing and what's important is making sure that progression is fun, otherwise. Play another game, MMOs are time-sinks, and should NOT be time investments. If you do want to invest time for the shinies, do something more productive.
However, the Boon daily grind is NOT much fun, because its just too overwhelming. And now with the addition with the power points.
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
@metalldjt If your believe that the "end-game" of PvP starts at BiS, why even have gear at all? Why not let everyone be "BiS" at level 70 by removing gear from the equation entirely, and let PvPers play because of the fun, competition and bragging rights?
Isn't that what GW2 did with sPvP? There's absolutely no gear progression in GW2 domination-style PvP. Everyone who enters at level 70 is on an entirely even playing field, and skill makes up the difference.
Would that be a viable solution for PvP in Neverwinter?
@metalldjt If your believe that the "end-game" of PvP starts at BiS, why even have gear at all? Why not let everyone be "BiS" at level 70 by removing gear from the equation entirely, and let PvPers play because of the fun, competition and bragging rights?
Isn't that what GW2 did with sPvP? There's absolutely no gear progression in GW2 domination-style PvP. Everyone who enters at level 70 is on an entirely even playing field, and skill makes up the difference.
Would that be a viable solution for PvP in Neverwinter?
...with this game's monetization scheme I frankly doubt that this will ever happen. Maybe as a small short-time league-style event. But even that seems doubtful...
difference between me and you , is that i care about the players that are under 4k item level, while you guys dont care what is over 2.6k item level. now please do tell me where i am mistaken? you can call me a sjw for what i care
You don't seem to get what I am saying.
Your "Phase 2" is the end game, you have all the items you need, and you can do all content, and get constant progression as refinement. What you said is true where the 2.6kish world is where the meat of the active players are.
Getting rank 12/transcendant/legendary is a long-term achievement and it is not when the end-game content begins, it is when it ends, because there is nothing else left to do. What do you think it's like for the BiS teams in PvP too? They fight ghosts more times than not because people will just leave or just go afk if they show up.
silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
I dont care about BiS, I care about being able to play at a fairly high level on multiple toons, I SIMPLY cannot do that in the current system.
Eventually if we continue to GO DOWN This road, you wont be able to EVEN get one toon to a 80% level without paying thousands of dollars out of pocket. What a joke.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
...with this game's monetization scheme I frankly doubt that this will ever happen. Maybe as a small short-time league-style event. But even that seems doubtful...
I think there's a fallacy to your logic there. You're saying we can't have a great game because it has to be monetized?
If people are paying Cryptic money for their service, then they're doing it right. Whether you agree with it or not, right? If the status quo maximizes income, and Cryptic's goal as a company is to maximize income, then there's no argument. It's done.
But I would argue the status quo doesn't maximize Cryptic's income, which invalidates the "oh, but the monetization scheme" argument. Both the status of the game AND the monetization model can be wrong.
I think the correct strategy is to determine the best intersection between profit and customer satisfaction. For example, giving everyone everything in the Zen store would make people extremely happy, right? But that definitely doesn't maximize profit. However, if you make things so expensive in order to maximize profit that your drive away customers, that doesn't work either.
Which is what I think we have here in PvP. It's so crippling expensive to get BiS gear which as @metalldjt has pointed out, as well as arguing that you need to be at or close to BiS to compete in "end game" PvP. So essentially you have a system when the cost to compete is so high that people opt not to participate, which in my opinion doesn't maximize the profit opportunity of the game.
So I go back to my original question. What's the ideal state for PvP? Most people would argue that gear parity (as well as class balance, but that's outside the scope of this discussion) creates an ideal PvP experience. So how do you drive towards that ideal experience while still generating revenue from the gameplay model?
That's the real question. And even to that point, I would ask "Do I need to monetize PvP? Or does PvP itself function as a customer retention tool, which indirectly leads to greater ROI?"
Undoing that would be the same as kicking every wallet warrior in the face with a sledgehammer dripping in acid.
Easy come, easy go, right?
But wouldn't the best and most skilled PvPers welcome the change? If they removed gear from the equation (and again, assume better class balance), then it's the best PvPers that would shine. No longer would the best be tormented with the cries of losing opponents...."Hurr hurr pay to win loser!" or "I could beat you, but I can't beat your credit card" or "No life loser has all the time to grind for his gear!"...all of that anger and animosity goes away if there's no gear component to PvP.
It really is a level playing field, which after all, seems to be what the true PvPers want, right? So they can decide who really is the best player, not just the best geared? Or am I reading that wrong?
So wouldn't removing "wallet warriors" from PvP be simply one of the best immediate fixes for PvP? And what if all the rewards for PvP were cosmetic? Or you did have a gear progression that was PvP specific, only functioned in PvP and PvE gear wasn't allowed in PvP, but the difference between BiS and the bottom was only 10%?
Or do people just have to accept the fact that monetization plays a huge part in PvP, and either live with it. Or walk away?
no ironzerg, i would go play league of legends/smite with active balances every week. if gear isnt part of the equation what s the point of the mmo? whats lacking are rewards, a bit of class imbalances (no bad like people are saying) and a good matchmaking. with the ncl rewards were there and matchmaking was doing its job.
a matchmaking working on skill isnt right, one based on gear score (not ilvl whcih is pointless) is way better
...with this game's monetization scheme I frankly doubt that this will ever happen. Maybe as a small short-time league-style event. But even that seems doubtful...
I think there's a fallacy to your logic there. You're saying we can't have a great game because it has to be monetized? [...]
You're fallacy is to believe I'd have said that EVERY monetization would be bad. What I said is that I believe THIS GAME'S (current) monetization scheme is bad and will probably preclude the gear-neutral PvP you suggest (which I know some games do employ).
As I posted elsewhere: IMHO C opts for pareto-focussing in a manner that drives many people out. And they do that even though they had had a game where people spent RL money because they liked the game. Sad story here: People being driven out => less smaller contributions => less turnover and income. Also: Less players => less incentive for the P2W cetacean crowd to stay in here => less income. C's answer: Curtail in-game income to an all but meaningless level, and increase the grind. which drives even more people away...
[...] a matchmaking working on skill isnt right, one based on gear score (not ilvl whcih is pointless) is way better
What about a bracketed matchmaking based on PvP-score and gear-score?
...because ROFLstomping imbalance will definitely only scare off a significant portion of potential PvPers, as can be witnessed by the twink overkill fraction - and the logical reaction to those matches, where hapless newcomers get squished by R10-12 + Trans "Lvl 11-20" "Pro's"...
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
So then a gear segregation seems like it makes sense? Remove all the PvE Artifacts/Artifact Equipment/Enchantments from PvP, and then have PvP specific gear that can only be earned in PvP. Includes weapons, armor and accessories. Keep some sort of gear progression in the game, but without Artifacts/Enchants/Artifact Equipment, it substantially flattens the power curve.
So then a gear segregation seems like it makes sense? Remove all the PvE Artifacts/Artifact Equipment/Enchantments from PvP, and then have PvP specific gear that can only be earned in PvP. Includes weapons, armor and accessories. Keep some sort of gear progression in the game, but without Artifacts/Enchants/Artifact Equipment, it substantially flattens the power curve.
Then they're limiting the degree to which they can monetize PvP.
They just need to add diminishing returns on stats and enchant effects. PvP would be playable if two 2.5ks could take down a 4k. That's what's really making PvP unplayable; even if you have much better teamwork gear trumps it thoroughly. Having some degree of unfairness is fine as long as you can have a chance of winning.
people that are sayin that is fine for not being BiS being fine with 2.5k item level , maybe this is your chosing, but others want to overcome that point,instead they are forced to be there.
Ok, let's discuss the alternatives: 1. The game simply doesn't allow you to overgear. This is what's done in most MMOs. There's a little headroom above the content's threshold because once you have the ultimate rewards, said contents becomes a lot easier by default. If they plan their game right, by the time the majority of the players reach this point, another expansion is underway. This is what Cryptic should have done and simply raise the max rank of enchantments/artifacts according to the new content. This is also the best way for players to stay in touch with the content while at the same time giving players something to work for that's not totally out of reach. No imbalance there, other than possible class design flaws. 2. The game allows you to overgear to an absurd amount compared to the content, but it will come at a absurd price paid in either a 5 year grind or 5k from your CC. This is what Cryptic does now. I don't think I need explain what this attitude has accomplished.
Which do you prefer? Do you have a third alternative?
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited October 2015
Here's what I think of those videos..."though-terminating cliche". Those videos don't actually contain any deep, intellectual insight. They just recite a bunch of buzz words, cliches and platitudes designed to get people to agree and nod their heads, without challenging them to think critically about any of it.
You watch a video like that, and your initial reaction is like, "Wow! Awesome! That's so smart. He's totally right!" And then you realize he didn't actually say anything insightful.
That's also why people constantly repost stuff like that (which I guess is good for him). It's so ambiguous and generic that you can pretty much attempt to insert it into any conversation about free to play or monetization and look like you're making a point.
Comments
If they put out a poll that said would you rather:
A) Have all the dungeons put back in the game with fun mechanics and actual rewards
or
I'm sure A would win overwhelmingly. And that, in my mind, is exactly what they should do.
I have zero , ZERO trust in the game managers, nothing, nada, zil, zip, zippo. They have show a pattern of massive removal and nothing really giving back.
IF you are truly honest with yourself, do you find this game more fun since leadership removal? I know I do not , not at all.. Im stuck and forced to do one thing to progress..
A game that you cant PLAY to progress, isnt really a game.. not at all.
Get them hooked on the 3 month 'this is superb! this game is fun!' plan, get them to buy some zen, then once they're addicted, they hit the 3-year slow drip..
NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
Thanks for all the fish.
I've played this game on and off since beta, and im not BiS. Nor do I care, its not important. I've played tons of MMOs and getting hte best gear keeps you entertained for about a week then you get bored because you have nothing to do, and outgearing in PvP is only fun for a few moments unless you like winning with a handicap.
You spend most of your time progressing and what's important is making sure that progression is fun, otherwise. Play another game, MMOs are time-sinks, and should NOT be time investments. If you do want to invest time for the shinies, do something more productive.
However, the Boon daily grind is NOT much fun, because its just too overwhelming. And now with the addition with the power points.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Isn't that what GW2 did with sPvP? There's absolutely no gear progression in GW2 domination-style PvP. Everyone who enters at level 70 is on an entirely even playing field, and skill makes up the difference.
Would that be a viable solution for PvP in Neverwinter?
Your "Phase 2" is the end game, you have all the items you need, and you can do all content, and get constant progression as refinement. What you said is true where the 2.6kish world is where the meat of the active players are.
Getting rank 12/transcendant/legendary is a long-term achievement and it is not when the end-game content begins, it is when it ends, because there is nothing else left to do. What do you think it's like for the BiS teams in PvP too? They fight ghosts more times than not because people will just leave or just go afk if they show up.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Eventually if we continue to GO DOWN This road, you wont be able to EVEN get one toon to a 80% level without paying thousands of dollars out of pocket. What a joke.
If people are paying Cryptic money for their service, then they're doing it right. Whether you agree with it or not, right? If the status quo maximizes income, and Cryptic's goal as a company is to maximize income, then there's no argument. It's done.
But I would argue the status quo doesn't maximize Cryptic's income, which invalidates the "oh, but the monetization scheme" argument. Both the status of the game AND the monetization model can be wrong.
I think the correct strategy is to determine the best intersection between profit and customer satisfaction. For example, giving everyone everything in the Zen store would make people extremely happy, right? But that definitely doesn't maximize profit. However, if you make things so expensive in order to maximize profit that your drive away customers, that doesn't work either.
Which is what I think we have here in PvP. It's so crippling expensive to get BiS gear which as @metalldjt has pointed out, as well as arguing that you need to be at or close to BiS to compete in "end game" PvP. So essentially you have a system when the cost to compete is so high that people opt not to participate, which in my opinion doesn't maximize the profit opportunity of the game.
So I go back to my original question. What's the ideal state for PvP? Most people would argue that gear parity (as well as class balance, but that's outside the scope of this discussion) creates an ideal PvP experience. So how do you drive towards that ideal experience while still generating revenue from the gameplay model?
That's the real question. And even to that point, I would ask "Do I need to monetize PvP? Or does PvP itself function as a customer retention tool, which indirectly leads to greater ROI?"
But wouldn't the best and most skilled PvPers welcome the change? If they removed gear from the equation (and again, assume better class balance), then it's the best PvPers that would shine. No longer would the best be tormented with the cries of losing opponents...."Hurr hurr pay to win loser!" or "I could beat you, but I can't beat your credit card" or "No life loser has all the time to grind for his gear!"...all of that anger and animosity goes away if there's no gear component to PvP.
It really is a level playing field, which after all, seems to be what the true PvPers want, right? So they can decide who really is the best player, not just the best geared? Or am I reading that wrong?
So wouldn't removing "wallet warriors" from PvP be simply one of the best immediate fixes for PvP? And what if all the rewards for PvP were cosmetic? Or you did have a gear progression that was PvP specific, only functioned in PvP and PvE gear wasn't allowed in PvP, but the difference between BiS and the bottom was only 10%?
Or do people just have to accept the fact that monetization plays a huge part in PvP, and either live with it. Or walk away?
if gear isnt part of the equation what s the point of the mmo?
whats lacking are rewards, a bit of class imbalances (no bad like people are saying) and a good matchmaking. with the ncl rewards were there and matchmaking was doing its job.
a matchmaking working on skill isnt right, one based on gear score (not ilvl whcih is pointless) is way better
As I posted elsewhere: IMHO C opts for pareto-focussing in a manner that drives many people out. And they do that even though they had had a game where people spent RL money because they liked the game. Sad story here: People being driven out => less smaller contributions => less turnover and income. Also: Less players => less incentive for the P2W cetacean crowd to stay in here => less income. C's answer: Curtail in-game income to an all but meaningless level, and increase the grind. which drives even more people away...
What about a bracketed matchmaking based on PvP-score and gear-score?
...because ROFLstomping imbalance will definitely only scare off a significant portion of potential PvPers, as can be witnessed by the twink overkill fraction - and the logical reaction to those matches, where hapless newcomers get squished by R10-12 + Trans "Lvl 11-20" "Pro's"...
They just need to add diminishing returns on stats and enchant effects. PvP would be playable if two 2.5ks could take down a 4k. That's what's really making PvP unplayable; even if you have much better teamwork gear trumps it thoroughly. Having some degree of unfairness is fine as long as you can have a chance of winning.
Why do people keep referencing this garbage.
You watch a video like that, and your initial reaction is like, "Wow! Awesome! That's so smart. He's totally right!" And then you realize he didn't actually say anything insightful.
That's also why people constantly repost stuff like that (which I guess is good for him). It's so ambiguous and generic that you can pretty much attempt to insert it into any conversation about free to play or monetization and look like you're making a point.