road to best in slot!

metalldjt · October 2015

Disclaimer: this thread/feedback is meant for players that want to PROGRESS in this game, therefore is not meant for people that use this game as a CHAT / ROLEPLAYING or other reasons they play this, it's meant for players that start this game from point A and want to arrive at point B or which point leads to end game. If you are not finding yourself in this , please dont post in this thread, if you do find yourself please be constructive to this thread/feedback.
I'm sorry for any grammar mistakes, as i am not a native of it.

so i will start by sayin that i am sorry by not being accurate with some certain points, but if i were to start this game from 0 with a new account and having only 2 character slots, this is how i can see how it goes through

so assuming that as for today i am making my new account and i will start a journey with 1 character , how much it will take for me to get at end gear(bis) ?

Best in slot (also "best-in-slot"; usually shortened to "BiS") is a term meant to describe the very best item, enchant and/or gem available to a character for a specific slot. While there are differences in opinion there is usually a generally held idea of what is the BiS. This term is used by the twink community for things that are best for particular levels, while it usually refers to level cap things.

Some players consider such "BiS lists" to be absolute, while others consider best in slot to be relative to your other gear, talent specialization, and play style.

Best-in-slot slot gear can change from patch to patch and may only be correct if the underlying methods or theorycrafting used to determine the item's status is correct.

the reason why i want to get best in slot, problably this is why every gamer that plays and enjoys a game wants to get, let's be serious you won't play a game to be stuck at mission 1, just because you enjoy it being there, i for one , i want to get at the end game as fast as possible where other players are, so this thread /feedback is meant for that reason , road to end game.

so i will start by sayin that i want to play as f2p as much as possible, without investing any real money into it to shorten my f2p experience.
so i will start by gathering infos on what class i want to make, what i want to focus on and what i have to spend my time for the most efficient things to progress in this game without losing time with silly stuff like jumping in protector enclave for hourse doing absolutely nothing constructive. Also i will use the AH , but i will not buy stacks of rank5 / peridots , cause those are exploited RP from those BOTS , even thou they are helping me to get to BiS faster, i won't do that, cause i will play as LEGIT as possible.
so let's start.

I am going to make a GWF because they are the FOTM for PVE play with their insane damage and also easy to get in a group.
So today i am making this gwf ,if i want to speed myself up on leveling like a hardcore player, i will be able to get my character in just 6-9 hours of play up to level 60 , and from here to level 70, it will take problably about 2-3 days.
so 4 days until i hit level 70.
also at this level i will start my campaigns
Sharandar, Dread ring, Tyranny of Dragons , Icewindale , because i rushed to get to level 70, i skipped daily quests from the campaigns.

so let's see how many days will it take for me to finish all this 4 campaigns , also the COST of them and minutes/hour per day for dailies.
Sharandar - 35 days campaign + boons - 75k ad (malabog unlocked) 15-30 minutes per day to finish
Dread Ring - 31 days campaign + boons - 108k (valindra and gauntlets unlocked) 10 minute sper day
Tyranny of Dragons - 19 days campaign + 50+ days boons - 180k ad (everything unlocked).15-45 minutes per day + 2 tries of tiamat each hour for a total of 2 minutes
Icewindale - 35 days campaign + boons - 138k AD (kessel unlocked) 30 minutes per day
ETA: 5-6 hours per day in the game.
my target is about 50 days at my disposal to finish all my campaigns doing my dailies in all 4 zones and clearing tiamat 2 times per day and get my 2 linus in 2 succes runs, assuming my team will always be able to clear tiamat, and not be bugged.

assuming also that for 50 days i will make 24k Rad each day = 1.200.000 AD , this is my budget, where i substract 501.000 ad(spent on campaigns) from it remaining with 699k.

because of the time i can spend each day on the game, i only had time to progress by only doing my dailys, i started to go in a dungeon more frequently at day 35 , after i finish 3 out of 4 campaigns, so i was able to gear myself properly with the dungeon gear/tiamat gear.

so with a budget of 700k made out only from the rough AD i am going to add on this number another absurd portion of AD assuming that i got some nice drops by doing dailies and i got drops such as greater mark of power/union , superior mark blabla, and also drops from tiamat of around 100 runs (both succes and failures), after all this i assume that i made around 2.000.000 AD.

so my AD currency now is of 2.700.000 AD profit that i gathered in all this 50 days of playing.
what i will do with this amount of AD , it's not like i had them entirely cash, i had and i had to spend on things such as

JewelCrafting assets
Black Ice Profession assets
rank 8 enchants on utility,offensive and defensive slots.
40 stacks of minor resonance to my artifact gear to purple , each gear requiring 10 stacks of minor resonance.
1x lesser soulforge.
spending all my AD .

so at this level i decide that i should join a guild to get the stronghold gear, since my solo play is over and BIS gear is there in a guild.
so to get my new Dragonflight gear i have to do dragonflight couple of days per day and also invest currency from the other zones so that i can get my guildmarks.

so again repeating the same routine of doing dailies in 4 zones + dragonflight event instead of tiamat/dungeons.
until i get my gear, i estimate around 24 days(24k x 24 days = 579k ad)
so after i farmed my entire gear and played for 3 months i succeded in having
4 pieces elemental gear of dragon flight + artifact gear to purple and artifacts to purple with all my campaigns finished and it took me around 90 days.

so in 3 months i was able to get at this point to upgrade my gear out as much as possible i could by just keepin on this f2p model.

At this point i go in the 2nd phase of the game where i will start suming up the amount of AD i need to get and amount of days i have to spend to progress from this level, and this is outragous.

Objectives:
-4 artifact gear to legendary
-4 artifacts to mythical
-15 enchants to rank 12 +2x ( weapon/armor enchant).

i am going to take the CHEAPEST ROUTE TO UPGRADE THEM, and that is the 2x RP event.

artifact gear - from green to legendary it takes around 90 stacks of minor resonance(4.600.000 refining points) , since it's 2x RP i only have to get 45 stacks of minor resonance x 4 pieces of artifact gear = 180 stacks at the price of 55k ad on ah = 9.900.000 AD
artifact mythical - from green to mythical requires 11 milion refining points , since it's 2x rp i only need 5.5 milion = 55 stacks of rank 5 x 4 artifacts = 220 stacks of rank 5 at the price of 10k = 2.200.000 AD .
starting from rank 8 with all the costs that it requires until you upgrade it up to rank 12 , it will cost you atleast 1.500.000 AD per enchantment x 15 = 22.500.000 AD
+ transendent vorpal and soulforge = 9.000.000 AD .

so it's a total of 43.600.000 AD and if you divide by 24k ad that you gain each day = 1816 days.

there is no possible way to grind by yourself the refining points that you have to get to upgrade your gear and artifacts and therfore the only way is to buy it from BOTers , not ot mention it's even the fastest way to get your progress.

1816 days let's shorten that out, cause you might get 43.600.000 AD by different methods.

1. buying ZEN and tranform it in AD
2. farming items and sell them
3. someone makes a donation to you.
4. playing the Auction house , playin with the economy : buy cheaper / sell expensive.

but even fi you do all of this lets assume you cut down 1500 days, and you remain with 316 days and that is almost 1 year.
so in 1 year i am able to get myself to best in slot by playin f2p as much as possible and legit.

so in other words this game right now how it is attracts new people, where they get burnt out and quit, i myself can't agree with this model and it's totally the evil thing that a game can have.

your only target is to milk people out of their money and leave the game, i for one i am not enjoying your SYSTEM THAT YOU HAVE CREATED, what i found entertainment in this game is the soical part and the game mechanics that this game offer, what you guys maintain you are ruining a superb game, this model is totally evil, none of the mmorpgs that are out there are using this model.

yes people come and go, but this is the MAIN reason why people come and go, because you attract them into a mouse trap: they enjoy the soical part of it, lore , people that are playin, but they are leaving the game because of the poorly management on your side, and it breaks my soul appart when i see this unfairness going on, i want this game to be overpopulated by players, but right now it isn't .

and i will not add
Class balance
Content
exploits/bugs.

revovlerjesus1 · October 2015

I think 5 years of solid grinding every day is a ok amount to become BiS (sarcasm)
Yeah its really stupid, very nice post Lancerboy.

Unknown · October 2015

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rustlord · October 2015

Totally agree with everything said. If I were a new player coming into this, I would have quit just because of the progression gap. I wanted to play a game, not work a second job. It should be easier for new players to get competitive in an acceptable amount of time.

pherrow · October 2015

The reality of the journey you have illustrated, Lancer, is that it is even more sad...

During that 1816 days, one of the biggest disappointments will be learning there is nearly no sound investment on your journey. The AD projection will actually go up since if you were inclined to spend that time, what is actually BiS may change 20 times during the 1816 days. And what's worse is that a lot of serious players will probably spend a lot of time chasing their tales...just when they are about to reach Trans on an enchant BOOM, slap in the face - NERF. AD and time wasted. What now? Move on to the next BiS enchant? Well, how could we trust that we won't get eff'd again?

plasticbat · October 2015

That is why I don't go to BiS. It is not I don't want to. It is I can't. Actually, I did. It is just the previous version of BiS.

The goal post moved before I am in range of the goal.

Unknown · October 2015

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zeusom · October 2015

Took me 6 months from 1st toon / first loadup to one best in slot toon. I spent a total of about $100 which didnt go far at all, mostly got bis because of leadership, some early lucky drop wins of big ticket items like 6million AD Owlbear belt, and then smart investments of that capital on AH in fiasco's like the botted unbound RP from hoard enchants being changed to bound (bought millions in unbound and it went up 10 fold in price later, sold). Those kind of opportunity have simply don't exist anymore.

But altogether that is reasonable. 5 years is not. Few new players are going to stick around once they realize the time OR money it will take just to be competitive at level 70. So game population is likely to continue decay if all stays this way, sadly. Because that time/money demand is JUST NOT REASONABLE for a game.

Unknown · October 2015

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Unknown · October 2015

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suicidalgodot · October 2015

metalldjt said:
Disclaimer: this thread/feedback is meant for players [...] but right now it isn't .

and i will not add
Class balance
Content
exploits/bugs.

Nice writeup, entirely correct. Unavoidably too wall-of-text-ish for the standard gamer to read, I presume. Which doesn't infringe the posts truth.

You could also add, that BiS will be yesterday's news after the next Module launch and/or (stealth) nerf.

ironzerg79 · October 2015

metalldjt said:
so in 3 months i was able to get at this point to upgrade my gear out as much as possible i could by just keepin on this f2p model.

And at this level of power, it should be sufficient to tackle any piece of PvE content in the game. Would you disagree with this statement?

metalldjt said:
so it's a total of 43.600.000 AD and if you divide by 24k ad that you gain each day = 1816 days.

And now let me pull back the curtain. Why do you think it takes 3 months to get to where you can essentially do everything, then five years to max out?

Because the type of person who's going to get addicted to games like this is either going to stick around for 5 years chasing that BiS or pay money to get there quicker. And what keeps the lights on at Cryptic? Money.

So what does that create? An environment where a player can essentially play for free (as you said yourself) and get geared enough to do all the PvE content in three months. And then if seeing the content is all they care about, they leave.

Until...guess what happens every 3-4 months?

New content is released. So then that free player can come back, work back towards enough gear to experience the content, then leave. And come back. And leave. And come back. And maybe they throw a few bucks towards the game when they do come back.

But who keeps shoveling money into the game in between? That's right. It's the BiS-obsessive player...that person who has to have BiS everything, even though NONE of it really matters. And quite frankly, no one really cares. Except that BiS player.

And where the anger and frustration comes, from some of these players, is when they either grind or pay for BiS...and then they find out...no one cares. The illusion is broken.

Now, all that being said...they're making money. Some money.

But, I believe if they went down a path that spent less time monetizing advancement towards BiS, and more time monetizing character customization, player housing or other essentially "cosmetic" based content, they'd make incredible amounts of money.

silverkelt · October 2015

However.. we are on a massive downward spiral, not a continuing uptick, we have lost thousands and thousands of players to the insanity. I would agree with your premise Iron if it was fairly static and every three months they got a cash splurge. But you and I and everyone knows on the PC side that our player-base in the last 6 months is about half of what we experienced before that point.

It is not self sustaining in the amount we have lost at least on the PC side, I have no idea at all how Xbox looks.

If we are nothing more then a glorified beta for Xbox.. that is the only thing I can thing would keep the game running. There is no way , shape , or form, that we can continue in this direction without some relief, unless it really doesnt matter and we are just here to help shape future released to another platform.

I really cant think of a reason to keep going in the direction they have.

ironzerg79 · October 2015

I'm not saying there aren't issues stopping the game from being as fun and compelling as I believe it could be.

What I'm saying is I've never played an MMO where players chasing best in slot weren't inherently miserable.

Unknown · October 2015

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rollingonit · October 2015

MMO - RPGs, Iron. There are many MMOs where people chase BIS and they are much more reasonable and have a great time doing it. MMORPGs are built on some terrible treadmills.

ironzerg79 · October 2015

defiantone99 said:
If there were no BIS players, all the defending the status quo would fly. But there are, and they dominate every aspect of the game. It is creating a feeling of alienation in the rest of the player base. Almost everyone wants to be BIS. Watch the videos of the PVP guilds and Maxed out players, they look far from miserable. They are having a blast soloing HEs, dungeons, and whole pug PVP teams.

Who cares if someone "dominates" the PvE game? Does knowing that someone can solo an HE that you need to bring a buddy to make the game any less fun for you (or your buddy)? I would actually argue that when PvE is too easy, it makes the game less fun...but that's just me.

I ran a few dungeons tonight with guildies of various iLevels, and it didn't really make a difference. We finished every dungeon we did, and people had fun. No one really cared what the "scored" said at the end of the dungeon, just that we got our loot, RAD and seals. And that was that.

PvP on the other hand? That's a totally different story...in my opinion it's crippled way beyond just the gear gap. So few people actively participate because it's so horribly broken...but then what's the ROI on really fixing it, given the participation level? A real chicken/egg problem there...and one the devs have obviously opted not to wade into.

pherrow · October 2015

ironzerg79 said:

And where the anger and frustration comes, from some of these players, is when they either grind or pay for BiS...and then they find out...no one cares. The illusion is broken.

Well, I don't need BiS, not for pve content. But I guess I'll go ahead and say it and it doesn't matter who cares and there is no illusion, pve is not the only game in town. BiS for pvp works nicely and not for beatin' on the pugs that the matchmaking would feed BiS folks but for the competition that can be had at BiS that level. Once you have all of the gear I guess there are only a few things left...theory crafting and skill. The simple deviance to this is balancing issues and class mechanics vs other class mechanics (in a nutshell).

ironzerg79 · October 2015

rollingonit said:
There are many MMOs where people chase BIS and they are much more reasonable and have a great time doing it.

@rollingonit Care to share a couple links?

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andikttn · October 2015

cheers lancer.

dodgo · October 2015

ironzerg79 said:

defiantone99 said:
If there were no BIS players, all the defending the status quo would fly. But there are, and they dominate every aspect of the game. It is creating a feeling of alienation in the rest of the player base. Almost everyone wants to be BIS. Watch the videos of the PVP guilds and Maxed out players, they look far from miserable. They are having a blast soloing HEs, dungeons, and whole pug PVP teams.
Who cares if someone "dominates" the PvE game? Does knowing that someone can solo an HE that you need to bring a buddy to make the game any less fun for you (or your buddy)? I would actually argue that when PvE is too easy, it makes the game less fun...but that's just me.

I ran a few dungeons tonight with guildies of various iLevels, and it didn't really make a difference. We finished every dungeon we did, and people had fun. No one really cared what the "scored" said at the end of the dungeon, just that we got our loot, RAD and seals. And that was that.

PvP on the other hand? That's a totally different story...in my opinion it's crippled way beyond just the gear gap. So few people actively participate because it's so horribly broken...but then what's the ROI on really fixing it, given the participation level? A real chicken/egg problem there...and one the devs have obviously opted not to wade into.

how is it ok for a forum mod to talk negativelly about pvp and cryptic? i thought it was against TOS? you pull us up on it often enough zerg..

also you are a self confessed non pvp player so why even comment??

spqwn · October 2015

I think i'm beginning to understand why BiS people complain about how hard it is now to become BiS. They have noone to fight against in pvp.
Why would you need to be BiS? PvP.
The problem is not that much as getting to BiS, but what you do when you get there... nothing. Queue still pops in half an hour and matches are still very unbalanced.
If PvP would be removed tomorrow, all this drama would disappear.

ironzerg79 · October 2015

spqwn said:
I think i'm beginning to understand why BiS people complain about how hard it is now to become BiS. They have noone to fight against in pvp.

I think there's something to be said about that. Early in the game, people didn't WANT other players to be BiS so they could stomp them at PvP. Now there's very few BiS PvPers out there, the complaints have shifted the other way. But the BiS PvPers (for the most part) aren't going to "downgear" to play more competitive matches. And why should they? They earned their gear, now it's silly to just throw it away.

But maybe that's the type of system Neverwinter needs. What if NCL came back with two divisions: Unranked and Ranked.

If you entered an Unranked match, you were given default stats and no equipment, boons, artifacts, buff potions, etc..counted. It was just your skill and your build vs other people's skills and builds. But you still earned full rewards for PvPing. But you weren't eligible for the end of season prizes unless you were ranked. You could still earn the currency and buy stuff off the vendor, but the real hardcore rewards would be reserved for ranked players.

If you entered a ranked match, everything counts. And everyone gets ranked. Ranked players are the only one eligible for unique rewards at the end of the season.

The caveat here, to keep it fair, though is...if you entered an unranked match (to say, pub stomp because you're bored) your ranking gets reset to zero.

So it gives a safer environment for non-BiS (or those who aren't super serious) to play PvP, learn it, earn some currency and maybe get a taste for it before stepping into the big leagues. For the BiS, it guarantees that their matches are going to be against people who are there to go toe to toe with the best, and they don't waste time in a queue only to be tossed in a lopsided match.

thefabricant · October 2015

ironzerg79 said:

spqwn said:
I think i'm beginning to understand why BiS people complain about how hard it is now to become BiS. They have noone to fight against in pvp.
I think there's something to be said about that. Early in the game, people didn't WANT other players to be BiS so they could stomp them at PvP. Now there's very few BiS PvPers out there, the complaints have shifted the other way. But the BiS PvPers (for the most part) aren't going to "downgear" to play more competitive matches. And why should they? They earned their gear, now it's silly to just throw it away.

But maybe that's the type of system Neverwinter needs. What if NCL came back with two divisions: Unranked and Ranked.

If you entered an Unranked match, you were given default stats and no equipment, boons, artifacts, buff potions, etc..counted. It was just your skill and your build vs other people's skills and builds. But you still earned full rewards for PvPing. But you weren't eligible for the end of season prizes unless you were ranked. You could still earn the currency and buy stuff off the vendor, but the real hardcore rewards would be reserved for ranked players.

If you entered a ranked match, everything counts. And everyone gets ranked. Ranked players are the only one eligible for unique rewards at the end of the season.

The caveat here, to keep it fair, though is...if you entered an unranked match (to say, pub stomp because you're bored) your ranking gets reset to zero.

So it gives a safer environment for non-BiS (or those who aren't super serious) to play PvP, learn it, earn some currency and maybe get a taste for it before stepping into the big leagues. For the BiS, it guarantees that their matches are going to be against people who are there to go toe to toe with the best, and they don't waste time in a queue only to be tossed in a lopsided match.

The issue is ironzerg, that the only way to reach BiS for a new player is to stop progressing your character 5 years (with the exception of enchantments) and save up all that currency they need so that for 1 module, they can have their perfect gear because the very next module, another 10-20M AD will have been added to the top of it. The issue isn't how long the grind takes, its that every module they add so much more onto the grind pile. I am satisfied with non BiS gear, but I can see why players who want BiS gear are frustrated and I can definitely sympathise with their situation.

What frustrates me is I like to test things and see what works and I can't afford to do that. I can't afford to test every single companion or test 1 setup of enchants vs another. I can't see what is really efficient, outside of feats because I can't afford to do so.

silverkelt · October 2015

Screw bis discussion..

This is the real problem, at this current time, you can't realistically equip more then 1 toon to even 80% of BiS.. let alone multiple alts..

Its gets to the point that the game is becoming a chore just to log in.

I want to play multiple toons and until they can figure out how you can do that realistically.. the game will remain boring for the most part.

There isnt enough balance back to playerbase on costing.. its as simple as that.

BTW I dont buy you cant get to BIS in other games for FAR , FAR less costing.. I did it in lotro on 2-3 toons and it only cost me 20 bucks a month on vip plan basically. THATS far less then they offer it here.

sometimes I would miss out on maybe a 1st age weapon, but who cares about that.

suicidalgodot · October 2015

... I think this cartoon sums it up nicely and succinctly.

Unknown · October 2015

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Unknown · October 2015

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silverkelt · October 2015

SIMPLE equation.

Players want to progress, when they have the feeling of progression they will be happy.

Even during leadership days, I would save everything and once a month or two or so, I could make a leap forward.. now not so much. (BTW I would buy in to the play to progress, if IT WAS REAL!)

Its too much, there is almost no reason to even log in and play, thats the real issue. WHERE is the reward for playing? So many postive suggestions have been giving.

The company wants to make money, they have that right, but as a player , I can reserve my money , thats mine. I want enjoyable progress-able content, and a mmo where I can play from different perspectives on multiple toons.

OTHER mmos make that happen, other ones figured out that balance.

ironzerg79 · October 2015

Well, I'm going to be sour here and say that solution would only work for a short period of time because the person who pays for BiS isn't doing it to be competitive. He's doing it to stomp people. No one's dropping a ton of money on this game just to lose. While a lobby system might be occasionally attractive to some PvPers, if there's no one around or they get tired of losing to equally geared people, they're going to go right back to pub-smashing in open matches.

And I also think this argument that "Oh, Cryptic doesn't fix PvP because they WANT people to throw money into it" is pretty lame. I just can't imagine there's enough players out their buying their way to the top often enough to generate a reliable cash income for Cryptic. I have to believe PvP is mostly ignored because it DOESN'T generate very much revenue, so when you have a team that's already stretched thin working on the PvE side of things, there's no ROI in PvP.

I'm just going to call out the elephant in the room here...A few months ago, they tried to launch the NCL, a PvP-centric event designed to motivate more players to PvP. And it ended. With zero recap or follow up, and no plans to relaunch it in the future.

What does that tell you about how "successful" NCL was?

And look at Stronghold PvP. Was suppose to be big deal...and everyone hates it, even the PvP crowd, for various reasons. They would've been far better off leaving the PvP aspect out and coming up with a PvE "raid" style event that involved your SH instead. And I guarantee you it would've been far, far more popular that SH PvP.

Do I blame the PvPers for that? No. Do I think the Devs are at fault for not creating a compelling PvP game? Yes.

But at a certain point you have to review your Strengths and Weaknesses internally, and compare them to your Opportunities and Threats externally, then build a strategy. And the reality is, we've seen PvP constantly fail time and time again in Neverwinter.

If I was part of the team internally, I'd ask the honest question, "Do we have the internal competencies to develop a winning PvP aspect of our game?" And I think the answer is "No." That's not a good thing, but it's also not a bad thing. Games do better and create happier customers when they play to their strengths. You would think Neverwinter would be a perfect game for PvP, given how well done the action combat is...but unfortunately the resources just don't exists internally to develop that...and at this point, the opportunity cost of moving resources or spending money to acquire those competencies is too big.

My advice would be to just drop PvP altogether, focus on tightening up the PvE game and go from there. If you can get the PvE game to a state where people are generally happy to very happy with it, and you have consistent revenue being generated, then you can look at investing resources back into PvP. And again, I would be transparent with this...in a "State of the Game" article to the players, I'd be totally upfront that the PvP aspect of Neverwinter is going to be put on hold while we continue to funnel resources into the PvE.

I wouldn't turn off the PvP queues, or cut the open-world PvP from IWD, I'd just let things be as they are until resources were available to seriously tackle the PvP issue. And if it caused what's left of the PvP community to disintegrate, then that's that. I would only hope that down the road when Cryptic could take some time to seriously revamp PvP from top to bottom, enough compelling reasons would exist for those players to come back.

road to best in slot!

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