will tanks/healers be useless again ?

instynctive

Here's the thing... when OPs came out, everyone complained that they would make GFs and DCs obsolete. To date, I've met only one OP (devotion) who can out-heal my DC.

GFs and DCs are still as relevant now as they were before OPs. Okay, so over-geared BiS wallet warriors don't need them. That's great for them, and congrats on being able to do speed runs. As for the other 98% of us, we'll never see those sorts of ilvls, and will always need tanks and heals.

A good party build has always been at the very core of D&D. Unfortunately, since this is an MMO, there's no live DM to put a kink in the plans of the speed-runners.. however, if I ever had a party of all DPS on tabletop, you can rest assured that they would be knocked down a few notches.

It saddens me how people really just ruin the spirit of the game. Then complain that it's "too easy". But that's on them, not me, and I will continue to uphold the core of my beloved D&D.

Unknown

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l3thin4th

deathbeez said:

I don't think so.
Maybe you're just lucky rolling with amazing parties or you have an active and powerful guild.
I do pugs, and if I stop agroing, I'm picking the rest of them up off the floor in 20 seconds.

same here

My pally has to aggro and keep damage on him or other party member have high chances to die, especially in long boss fights.

santralafax

banaanc said:

Geared parties dont need tanks or healers, this feels a lot like mod1/2 when tanks died out becoming completely useless, are there plans for harder content that will require full party instead of the good old gwf and cw in whatever ratio, many ppl already experienced that in mods 2~5 , i had also invested decent amount of ad in my GF when he became useless for dungeons

it really feels like there is only cw class to play, since all others spend half the time(at least) in useless state

You can always be a Paladin! They never die, tank and heal at the same time, and never have a bad word to say! They even get queued as DPS now. Hurrah!

santralafax

banaanc said:

im not saying they are useless now(unless its good bis party) but they could become useless in mod8 or 9 if they dont seriously turn the difficulty dial up, again we see the gear creep without adjusted difficulty increases that led to tanks/healers becoming useless

They need to put out new, harder content, not dial the whole place up, like they did in April.

zacazu

ok, lets be clear... defenders defending or healers healing will be obsolete sooner or later (unless they work AC and this things). LEADERS - buffers, debuffers - never.

banaanc

santralafax said:

banaanc said:

im not saying they are useless now(unless its good bis party) but they could become useless in mod8 or 9 if they dont seriously turn the difficulty dial up, again we see the gear creep without adjusted difficulty increases that led to tanks/healers becoming useless

They need to put out new, harder content, not dial the whole place up, like they did in April.

thats what im afraid of - they havent added any new dungeons for more than a year now + they seem to want the content so every drooling ______ @ 2k ilvl can run everything, i really wish they would either add legendary tier dungeons dropping unbound ilvl 137 stuff in end@ max 1~2 items/day(just like first few runs drop more ad) but with much higher difficulty(a bit harder than mod6 dungeons with bugged mobs), or add difficulty to new elite tier dungeons so at launch only good players can do it, and everybody else can do it at next mod(reduce difficulty of older content, or add gear/boons to make it easier)

real tangible rewards from hard content is something i really miss - just like drops from t2 at launch when anything over 10k gs was quite good or cn(that held a bit longer)

kiraskytower

A couple of nights ago our guild ran eToS with a pretty standard party composition for us ... Tactician GF, a Faithful DC, Renegade CW, Destroyer GWF and a Temptation SW. Between the buffs coming from the SW, DC, GF and CW we breezed through the dungeon. During the final boss fight we had so much AP gain from the tactician I was able to keep Tyrannical Threat on the boss with nearly 100% uptime and the CW was able to spam Maelstrom of Chaos. The result was the adds died nearly as soon as they spawned.

Would we have finished faster with another DPS instead of the GF? Doubtful ... more likely it would have been much slower with many wipes.

szejhuludpuchacz

Doubt they will be useless. Havent done eGWD or ECC without tanks and healers. eToS is easiest one, so is doable with HR spaming Fox+DC or tank OP without DC. Generally im runing with my guild and trying to compose parties like tank+heal+3dps. I have geared GWF (yeah 'broken' class but im playing him 2 years...) and 2.4k iL OP so can swap between them if there is no tank. I have no problem with geared parties and making undergeared stay alive. GF is best tank party buffer with ITF, OP bring them faser recharge + bonus dmg from auras. Only thing is when I play with GF I have to watch my steps while with OP i dont have to.

thefabricant

szejhuludpuchacz said:

Doubt they will be useless. Havent done eGWD or ECC without tanks and healers. eToS is easiest one, so is doable with HR spaming Fox+DC or tank OP without DC. Generally im runing with my guild and trying to compose parties like tank+heal+3dps. I have geared GWF (yeah 'broken' class but im playing him 2 years...) and 2.4k iL OP so can swap between them if there is no tank. I have no problem with geared parties and making undergeared stay alive. GF is best tank party buffer with ITF, OP bring them faser recharge + bonus dmg from auras. Only thing is when I play with GF I have to watch my steps while with OP i dont have to.

Ive done both without either a tank or a healer, but not without both. Bear in mind I run with 2-3k premades, so, I imagine a high end 4k premade could do them without a tank and a healer.

szejhuludpuchacz

thefabricant said:

Ive done both without either a tank or a healer, but not without both. Bear in mind I run with 2-3k premades, so, I imagine a high end 4k premade could do them without a tank and a healer.

So what? Im doing crazy egwd speed runs with full pulls with my pally friend... With or without DC. All I telling you guys its impossible to do T2 (legit, ecc still broken...) without tanks and healers. Dont have to add 'or'. Many people need both. Tanks and healers wont be useless.

thefabricant

szejhuludpuchacz said:

thefabricant said:

Ive done both without either a tank or a healer, but not without both. Bear in mind I run with 2-3k premades, so, I imagine a high end 4k premade could do them without a tank and a healer.

So what? Im doing crazy egwd speed runs with full pulls with my pally friend... With or without DC. All I telling you guys its impossible to do T2 (legit, ecc still broken...) without tanks and healers. Dont have to add 'or'. Many people need both. Tanks and healers wont be useless.

Please refer to my first post in this thread and read what I wrote again, I did not say tanks and healers will be useless, I said it is possible to do dungeons without them. (Big difference) Personally, I find dungeon runs are faster with a righteous dc and a gf for the buffs they provide, but I do not deny that if a group wants to do dungeons without a tank and healer, they probably could. As for running door to door with a paladin, well, I have been running door to door in t2's without paladins, instead with gf and dc. I prefer gf's and dc's for those runs because of the extra dps plus speed bonus. Steal time on tab also helps with the movement speed.

eCC is the worst for door to door runs, because there are too many doors and often its a case of open 1 door, enter a room fight the monsters then open the door at the other side of the room, however, it has the most entertaining boss fight.

eGWD is the best for running door to door because it has long open stretches, however it has the worst boss fight because the immortality phases slow down the run considerably.

eToS is practically a t1 anyhow, no need to comment much on it.

banaanc

thefabricant said:

eCC is the worst for door to door runs, because there are too many doors and often its a case of open 1 door, enter a room fight the monsters then open the door at the other side of the room, however, it has the most entertaining boss fight.

entertaining ? for my pala its just x minute afk facetank where x is the time it takes for my dps to deal damage equal to boss hp

thefabricant

banaanc said:

thefabricant said:

eCC is the worst for door to door runs, because there are too many doors and often its a case of open 1 door, enter a room fight the monsters then open the door at the other side of the room, however, it has the most entertaining boss fight.

entertaining ? for my pala its just x minute afk facetank where x is the time it takes for my dps to deal damage equal to boss hp

exactly, when all the bosses are just dps spam with no skill, I don't want all of these extra random mechanics like invulnerability to bog the fight down Besides, I have yet to work out what exactly traven says when you pop the barrel, you know, that incomprehensible jumble of words?

tvcity

i guess it's time to switch my DC back to the dps path....

deathbeez

Geez, don't increase the difficulty.
Running PuGs is painful enough. Remember that the gear requirements of the content is way off, so you will have people with 1.6k ILs running things they think they can but shouldn't.
New players are coming in, don't rework the difficulty back to insane to please the top 10 percenters because the next goal post move is a few months out. They have the 3k+ and zerg channels, walk-ons got nothing.
Whales are always welcome in Tiamat...Go flex your IL muscle there. Believe me, it will be appreciated.

banaanc

deathbeez said:

Geez, don't increase the difficulty.
Running PuGs is painful enough. Remember that the gear requirements of the content is way off, so you will have people with 1.6k ILs running things they think they can but shouldn't.
New players are coming in, don't rework the difficulty back to insane to please the top 10 percenters because the next goal post move is a few months out. They have the 3k+ and zerg channels, walk-ons got nothing.
Whales are always welcome in Tiamat...Go flex your IL muscle there. Believe me, it will be appreciated.

and these pugs can run t1 stuff, or normal dungeons, there is no need for all content to be available for every last Donald with 2k ilvl from randomly assembled pile of trash for a gear

deathbeez

banaanc said:

and these pugs can run t1 stuff, or normal dungeons, there is no need for all content to be available for every last Donald with 2k ilvl from randomly assembled pile of trash for a gear

Oh, I agree, but that doesn't stop them from trying. If they made the IL requirements more realistic, it would help, but that ain't gonna happen.

banaanc

its not the ilvl that is a problem, if player knows what hes doing he is useful at minimum ilvl, the problem is the hordes of entitled Donalds modern gaming has created

kemnimtarkas

Pre-mod 4 was so BORING because all toons were TRs, CWs and GWFs. And everyone had soulforged/vorpal - with the occasional plaguefire. What's the point of the game if all you do is rinse / repeat with every player doing the exact same classes, same weapons, same enchants, all the time? That gets beyond boring.

I will admit to having stopped playing my GF toon in favor of the OP. Faster fights, better group buffs/debuffs and holds aggro almost as well.

schietindebux

Sure you can do T1 and skirmishes without tank, but its not that fast
GF buff is too strong, DC on top is not to beat...
but what will disappear are probably full heal specs as my faithfull DC, if content is not adjusted
Only bad geared groups need them, rightous is faster since he deals good DPS an better buffs
So byby to AC Faithfull, hello to DO rightous
Since no dual spec, its too painfull to go solo with a pure healspecc

bitt3rnightmar3

I'm trying out taking some righteous feats on my healer DC (Weapons of Light) to help add a bit of DPS buff. I'm still a Virtuous healer but I'm finding more often than not I don't need to heal a bunch in a dungeon. My passive heals from my capstone and annointed holy symbol seem to be doing the trick as long as we have a tank for damage mitigation and buffs. Basically I'm just buffing the party with gift of haste with my heals.