will tanks/healers be useless again ?

banaanc

Geared parties dont need tanks or healers, this feels a lot like mod1/2 when tanks died out becoming completely useless, are there plans for harder content that will require full party instead of the good old gwf and cw in whatever ratio, many ppl already experienced that in mods 2~5 , i had also invested decent amount of ad in my GF when he became useless for dungeons

it really feels like there is only cw class to play, since all others spend half the time(at least) in useless state

deathbeez

I don't think so.
Maybe you're just lucky rolling with amazing parties or you have an active and powerful guild.
I do pugs, and if I stop agroing, I'm picking the rest of them up off the floor in 20 seconds.

klangeddin

No it's not anywhere close to pre-mod 6. In pugs, squishies die with 2 hits.
I tried tanking first boss in eLoL with a 1800 destroyer GWF (there was no tank) and it 2 shotted me with spear + bite in 1 second.

If premades that overcome entry level IL by 40% or more can do it without tank, healer or both, it's completely fine. They shouldn't be having trouble doing that content anyway.

banaanc

klangeddin said:

No it's not anywhere close to pre-mod 6. In pugs, squishies die with 2 hits.
I tried tanking first boss in eLoL with a 1800 destroyer GWF (there was no tank) and it 2 shotted me with spear + bite in 1 second.

If premades that overcome entry level IL by 40% or more can do it without tank, healer or both, it's completely fine. They shouldn't be having trouble doing that content anyway.

thats how it started then, lower geared parties used tanks longer

klangeddin

banaanc said:

klangeddin said:

No it's not anywhere close to pre-mod 6. In pugs, squishies die with 2 hits.
I tried tanking first boss in eLoL with a 1800 destroyer GWF (there was no tank) and it 2 shotted me with spear + bite in 1 second.

If premades that overcome entry level IL by 40% or more can do it without tank, healer or both, it's completely fine. They shouldn't be having trouble doing that content anyway.

thats how it started then, lower geared parties used tanks longer

Not really, even pugs would kick tanks back then. That's how bad GFs were before mod 4 (before mod 2 they were even worse as they could not hold aggro at all) and generally how godly the CW + GWF combo was.

instynctive

I love my tanks. I love my healers. I won't run a dungeon without them.

banaanc

klangeddin said:

banaanc said:

klangeddin said:

No it's not anywhere close to pre-mod 6. In pugs, squishies die with 2 hits.
I tried tanking first boss in eLoL with a 1800 destroyer GWF (there was no tank) and it 2 shotted me with spear + bite in 1 second.

If premades that overcome entry level IL by 40% or more can do it without tank, healer or both, it's completely fine. They shouldn't be having trouble doing that content anyway.

thats how it started then, lower geared parties used tanks longer

Not really, even pugs would kick tanks back then. That's how bad GFs were before mod 4 and generally how godly the CW + GWF combo was.

there were a certain exploit reason to use gfs then, but many did use tanks, the groups i run with switched out tanks in mod1, but in launch version a good gf was still worth it for lower geared players

klangeddin

banaanc said:

klangeddin said:

banaanc said:

klangeddin said:

No it's not anywhere close to pre-mod 6. In pugs, squishies die with 2 hits.
I tried tanking first boss in eLoL with a 1800 destroyer GWF (there was no tank) and it 2 shotted me with spear + bite in 1 second.

If premades that overcome entry level IL by 40% or more can do it without tank, healer or both, it's completely fine. They shouldn't be having trouble doing that content anyway.

thats how it started then, lower geared parties used tanks longer

Not really, even pugs would kick tanks back then. That's how bad GFs were before mod 4 and generally how godly the CW + GWF combo was.

there were a certain exploit reason to use gfs then, but many did use tanks, the groups i run with switched out tanks in mod1, but in launch version a good gf was still worth it for lower geared players

No, at launch GF could not hold aggro on more than 1-2 targets, and we were forced to spec Conqueror as Protector was completely useless. I remember because I play one from release, it's mod 2 that boosted GFs threat and made them capable of holding complete AoE threat control, then mod 4 came and gave GFs the survivability + lots of other stuff that was sorely needed to make the class desirable in groups (Improved Mark, Improved Into the Fray and Permanent Knight's Valor). As a pugger GF I remember it clearly, half of my instances were kicks as soon as I got inside, something that today does not happen anymore. It's night and day from how things are today where Tanks are still an asset in non-ultra competitive setups. (though I guess players like that could even do stuff with 5 tanks or 5 healers and zero dpser)

Healers may be another ballpark, but even today they can do stuff that they could simply not do back then, like instant heals that could heal others from zero to full in a second, DCs only had Astral Shield + minor healing ticks or moderate burst heals associated to dps moves (but still nothing that could get to 100% a near death character like today). And keep in mind that Lifesteal and Regen have been nerfed (the former being unreliable and the latter being useless), something that made healer more needed than before. Back then those two stats, if stacked properly could take care of everything a healer could do and more.

vordayn

Even if you have geared players in a team, GFs and DCs can still provide amazing buffs. I was in an ELoL with two GFs and a GWF/CW/SW. The buffs from Into the Fray and protection from double reflecting KV were amazing. Not to mention most PUGs will benefit from having any tank or healer in the group also.

banaanc

i havent run with gf since mod1, but i remember i did enjoy running with my guilds gf on mod0/1, at mod1 i changed guild to the one im in now and we havent run with a gf since

im not saying they are useless now(unless its good bis party) but they could become useless in mod8 or 9 if they dont seriously turn the difficulty dial up, again we see the gear creep without adjusted difficulty increases that led to tanks/healers becoming useless

just like then we went from 11k gs being good to 25k gs with boons on top of it @ same difficulty, so now we got difficulty nerf along with new boons and better gear and set bonuses

vordayn said:

Even if you have geared players in a team, GFs and DCs can still provide amazing buffs. I was in an ELoL with two GFs and a GWF/CW/SW. The buffs from Into the Fray and protection from double reflecting KV were amazing. Not to mention most PUGs will benefit from having any tank or healer in the group also.

pugs always are a mod or 2 behind guild parties

tripsofthrymr

Once people become over-geared for the current content, DPS-only runs become more doable. Tanks/DCs were useless (other than for DC high prophet debuff) for several modules. Hopefully Module 8 will be appropriately balanced so that medium to high geared parties still benefit from / need a healer and a tank.

If not, players that spent time building up OPs (or rediscovered their DC/GF) will lose trust that time invested in the game is time well spent and are at risk of leaving.

aulduron

Plenty of times my DC hasn't had to heal, but that's in part because of his debuffs.

I've yet to beat a dungeon this mod with out either a tank or a healer.

tommyskilled

gf useless for dungeons? ahahhah u mad bro! in the mod 1/2 and since 5 as well geared party CAN run it without any support but with support is faster

gf buff (into the frey) is awesome for gwf and high dps class, dc's buffs are awesome too!
and i think the actual level is pretty good

hedgebet

MY 3k TR can solo ELoL easily, but mostly that is because of the TR aggro but where the enemy will simply ignore me and for my tank pet that thinks it is a perma bubble OP and can manage both scorpions at once without ever dropping in HP. The only challenge is the random invisible chain stuns of lostmauth himself.

To me the game is too easy, but I like a more challenging game in general and I thought it was too easy before they did the changes to make it easier.

pando83

Healing and protection is needed for 90% of the playerbase.
Any epic dungeon, Kessel or SoT, is a fair shot above pre-mod 6 content.

Most players do not outgear the content enough to skip tanks and healers in those dungeons.
You can't balance PvE over a small % of 3.5-4k players who can run end-game content without tanks or healers.

If needed, i would create a new tier above epic dungeons, with better drop rates and goodies for the BiS players, leaving current epics the way they are so that any player, at any gear level, can play end-game content and have a good challenge.

ghoulz66

I did an ESOT run where the DPS were useless lol.

Was just my tank poking at the boss while everyone else was dead

regenerde

You still need a decent tank and healer for most dungeon/skirmish runs, just pug an epic dungeon run and see for yourself. In most cases you will get through the run with some mediocore damage dealers, but if the tank and healer are "useless", you won't get far at all.

banaanc

regenerde said:

You still need a decent tank and healer for most dungeon/skirmish runs, just pug an epic dungeon run and see for yourself. In most cases you will get through the run with some mediocore damage dealers, but if the tank and healer are "useless", you won't get far at all.

that is why i like playing tanks and i could pull almost anybody through anything that isnt GWD, but atm it feels like too much pain for little to no gains, in mod6 i knew everybody would die without me, now ppl would have to play a bit more careful and thats it, and no new dungeon since mod4 doesnt help that

hustin1

IMHO you're asking the wrong question.

It's not "will tanks/healers be useless again?" it's "who will be made useless by the next new class?"

We're still in an unbalanced state because Cryptic apparently doesn't understand the difference between (1) letting marketing influence design decisions and (2) letting marketing force terrible design decisions.

Prior to mod 6, tanks and healers weren't very necessary (with one or two exceptions). Then the Oathbound Paladin comes along.

Marketing wants to be able to trumpet, "hey, we have Paladins now!" What happens? Cryptic gives them what they want.

Paladins are made so indispensable that it's impossible to survive group content without them. "NWO" becomes "NWoP" -- Never Without Paladin. Even today, after they've started to back off the madness, good luck finishing a T2 without one unless everyone is BiS.

The question to ask is, when the next class is released, which existing classes will become collateral damage? Will it be one or two, or will it be everyone (as was the case in mod 6). What terrible design decision will Marketing ram down our throats in mod 8?

You shouldn't be worrying so much about healers and tanks becoming useless so much as whether Cryptic has yet learned that giving Marketing too much influence is like giving TNT to a child.

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s1lv3rdrgnforum

the majority of runs i do still require tank/heals. Only t1's have really started seeing them as optional.

instynctive

ghoulz66 said:

I did an ESOT run where the DPS were useless lol.

Was just my tank poking at the boss while everyone else was dead

I just ran one that was the opposite... a tank that couldn't tank, and a "DPS DC with some heals".

Didn't get past the second boss.

I'd already poured out over 35mil in damage at that point, and the CW was CCing all over the place, but still brought down 20mil in damage.

Without buffs/debuffs, the party was doomed from the start.

urabask

ghoulz66 said:

I did an ESOT run where the DPS were useless lol.

Was just my tank poking at the boss while everyone else was dead

Well you need a tank/healer to keep your DPS alive because of that dumb AOE the boss spams. It's basically a party check. If you have a tank+healer you just get to stand there and spam into the boss while occasionally dodging circles. Otherwise you all get wiped. And half the time the queue just puts you in with 5 DPS : |

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zacazu

future, future? or geared players? not useless, just optative.

BUT for what i see, gf+striker do more damage than 2 strikers of the same class.

zacazu

hustin1 said:

IMHO you're asking the wrong question.

It's not "will tanks/healers be useless again?" it's "who will be made useless by the next new class?"

well... if come a controller, they will create some monsters that can not be facetanked, just managed from some distance... that means... you know.

thefabricant

It depends, I already know of 3-5k groups that don't use tanks for dungeons and just rush them. At the same time, I would rather have a tank and dc, for tide of iron, itf and the debuffs provided by a righteous dc, even if I was in a 3-5k group that could do the dungeon without a tank and dc. I find it more likely that tank and dc's swap from healer role to buff/debuff and damage, then they become completely obsolete.

ravenan

Just wait till stronhold defence boon start to get maxed, and +85% dmg ITF will come to play. We'll see whose useless

wentris

Its not only about healing/defense, a 3-4 dps + support team will have higher total DPS than 5 dps team - provided that everybody is equally geared. It is possible to run 5 dps parties, but they are formed like that, because tanks/healers are much harder to find than dps classes. Only a fool would deny a support in team, thinking it would lower its dps - and fools usually cant beat the dungeon without tank/healer anyway.

The only thing that may change is that tanks will build more about maximizing team dps, rather than survivability and healers may drop some heals/protection in favor of damage buffs/resistance debuffs.

Also - mod 1/2 GFs didnt have current Into The Fray version that is giving everybody in team such ridiculous damage buff.

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deathbeez

Into the Frey I used to think was not so great till mod 6.
Now in T1s/T2s, I never take it off. The AP gain keeps me alive, the speed keeps the DPS out of red circles, and higher DPS makes the battles go quicker. Longer battles, more mistakes, more pushing your luck on that unlucky crit with your name on it.