silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
again.. you miss the point, I never requested my healing DC to be on par with any striker, but we all need to do dailies, just allowing dual spec would fix the issue for the most part.
and yes.. when this game started to mod 3.. a DC could do dalies at a reasonable rate, it wasnt until that release in IWD, that made it super slow as they increased HP for mod 3,4 and then in 6 (mod 5 was a breeze, because every dc was a righteous one)
But back in mod 1 and 2, you were alwasy a hybrid (either hybrid pvp with extra stanima, or hybrid pve with hollowed ground heal) back then you could easily do your dailies at a reasonable rate in mods 1 and 2.
Im not looking to replace a dps, just make it a little more reasonble honestly. Frankly you cant die with a cw or gwf either on landscape, so its not apples to apples ans oranges to oranges either.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
I agree that a good tank doesn't really need Astral Shield since a good tank will know how to manage his/her stamina/block meter, and if the tank does slip up, you can heal the tank back to full with Gift of Faith and/or Empowered Bastion of Health. It *ought* to be useful for DPS classes, but it really isn't.
I agree that a good tank doesn't really need Astral Shield since a good tank will know how to manage his/her stamina/block meter, and if the tank does slip up, you can heal the tank back to full with Gift of Faith and/or Empowered Bastion of Health. It *ought* to be useful for DPS classes, but it really isn't.
Nope without the its shield up it's of no use Astral Shield, it does work in conjunction with tank's shield and overall mitigation. Long ago it was of use to other classes too.
Well thats part of what we are discussing. HOW do we get our most powerful buff to be effective with parties again.
Double the size of the radius, add a dps component buff to it.
But back in mod 1 and 2, you were alwasy a hybrid (either hybrid pvp with extra stanima, or hybrid pve with hollowed ground heal) back then you could easily do your dailies at a reasonable rate in mods 1 and 2.
Back in the early mods, all DCs were hybrid builds because that was the only viable build. That, coupled with the old lifesteal meant that a. we were crappy healers, and b. no one needed a healer anyway. All we brought to the table was the buff/debuff, and the majority of that came from gear. No one needed a healer in dungeons, so if you didn't have a friendly guild your only option was to PUG and hope the rest of the party had a clue.
You're not wrong that current solo play isn't tenable for DCs, but I vastly prefer the current options to the old ones.
I'm not entirely sure what your build is but my DC is AC/Faithful, I use BoH, Exaltation, and HW in dungeons all the time. The amount of heals that come from Exalt. + HW combo are amazing. Exalt. increases the healing the comes from HW substantially so I don't need use DG or anything else for healing/buff when I'm in a dungeon. Plus Exalt buff is awesome but of course this encounter is only at it's peak when you have the feat for it in the faithful tree.
Anyway, that is my input on the DC and those specific encounter powers you meantioned. I suggest trying out my encouter set up, you might like it. If you do, use Exalt. first and then HW and watch those hitpoints climb.
I don't really have any comment about soloing my DC as I have found that if my friends are online they are always willing to help.
Dual Spec...Exactly that is what is needed
Making a Faithfull DC doing mediocre damage would create a PVP Monster
I chose AC faithfull and have the ability to heal most PUG party through T2 dungeons having GS 2,3
Thats where a rightous DC will definitely struggle , except some nubby "super pros" who will probably come up and tell me they do fine , like it happens in most cases in these threads
I think, that most rightous DCs will refrain from running PuG. I do. Even in Mod 4, before the LS and AS nerf, I did not run PuG and I still remember some DDs in a premade I got invited to, who complained about 'bad healing'. I explained, that my spec is for buff/ debuff. After some more complaining I told them, that with my dmg buffs, LS and AS they should do fine or they dont do enough dmg. In Mod 4 a good DD was able to facetank everything exept onehits. I switched to healing, we did complete the dungeon and I left the group.
A rightous DC is great for a good group, for most PuGs it is a waste of time, bc you cant use your buffs and you suck at healing, compared to an equaly geared DC of one of the other specs.
Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
Dual Spec...Exactly that is what is needed
Making a Faithfull DC doing mediocre damage would create a PVP Monster
I chose AC faithfull and have the ability to heal most PUG party through T2 dungeons having GS 2,3
Thats where a rightous DC will definitely struggle , except some nubby "super pros" who will probably come up and tell me they do fine , like it happens in most cases in these threads
I think, that most rightous DCs will refrain from running PuG. I do. Even in Mod 4, before the LS and AS nerf, I did not run PuG and I still remember some DDs in a premade I got invited to, who complained about 'bad healing'. I explained, that my spec is for buff/ debuff. After some more complaining I told them, that with my dmg buffs, LS and AS they should do fine or they dont do enough dmg. In Mod 4 a good DD was able to facetank everything exept onehits. I switched to healing, we did complete the dungeon and I left the group.
A rightous DC is great for a good group, for most PuGs it is a waste of time, bc you cant use your buffs and you suck at healing, compared to an equaly geared DC of one of the other specs.
I have run ECC enough times to get all 1800 seals, I ran this with virtuous, faithful and righteous and every single were all random PUG runs with high and low item levels. I could not spot any real difference between the three with regards to healing, with righteous it goes a bit faster. My only main healing encounter used is well timed "Bastion of Healths", I even slot "Daunting Light" to make it go a bit faster. The final boss for PUGS is obviously done the "unorthodox" way, but even with virtuous or faithful I have yet to come across a PUG that could do it.
This is a bit off topic, but I have theory that my Frost enchantment does make things go smoother in dungeons. Everyone talks about Vorpal and Terror but this underrated enchantment I think has saved many lives, hitting those archers from a distance with "Divine Glow" and giving the rest of the party time to move on top of them really does help. I assume most people don't want to use this especially the DPS classes, but for clerics this controller enchantment is very useful.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
Well.. you didnt do it legit.. so I guess thats a deal breaker for me.
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clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
Well.. you didnt do it legit.. so I guess thats a deal breaker for me.
I did say I tried it with both virtuous and faithful, one can be hitting 100k heal over times, but should the hexer and the archers spawn and there are fireballs all around them then you will be one shotted. The boss fight basically ends ups with binary health meters, either its completely full or completely empty.
One can safely assume that the legit success rate of ECC for PUGS is 0% (even that giant brain boss did not have that failure rate), and not every PUG is made up of bad or under geared players. If the T2 dungeons are only meant for "only mythics need apply" guilds then they should state it as such. Also if the final boss can only be finished with having a very specific class and path, then that also should be stated as well, because the game designers did say this is not supposed to be the case.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
I agree.. which is why I never run Ecc.. because Ive never seen it done legit. Supposedly it has been done a few times.
Which is why I voted for reduced hardness for t2s, due to this being a full pita.
I'd like to point out two other Pala vs. DC things that plain cannor be appropriate/just/adwquate to their roles:
- Pala has three different spammable "at-will" direct heals (Sanctuary, Cure Wounds, Divine Call) which can be rapidly fired, DC a something like a half (Astral Seal)m and that works only indirectly...
- Pala has a self-correcting insta-heal daily (Lay on Hands), DC has Angel, which heals for a bit...
...meh?
Im not opposed to anything a pally has (other then the daily needs to be cut in half for pvp ) Its more that I look how the game has changed and I know we need a small adjustment on some of these things.
BTW the last time I called for adjustments, is when they gave us the faithful, virt and righteous lines, I heard many of the same arguments (and at that time, it WAS CLEAR that the dc was underperforming across every line) frankly it only had one role, debuffer, thats it, you never even healed with your dc back in mods 3-5 .. aseal was the only heal you ever used.. other then for pvp and you were still there to debuff with dg first.
I'm NOT saying "Nerf Pala"!
I'm intending to say something along the lines of: If there's a revamp for DC, give them a direct AoE-heal at-will instead of e.g. ASeal, maybe with an enabling/boosting/improving1 feat in Virt (HoT) and Faith (InstaHeal)...
It just shouldn't be that any DevPally, as a member of an off-tank class, has more and more powerful fast heals than the core healer. DC buff/debuff capabilities notwithstanding - because those are not so great for V/F-DCs.
Well all i can say let the Cleric like it is its an perfect class right now
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
I asked for Mass Heal many times, which is what SB is sort of, but it isnt powerful enough and its more of a CC function/heal /damage spell.
REMOVE warding flare, its a piece of junk and give DCs a Mass Heal with a good buff.
ALSO someone please fix DG.. I have a trans plague and my most used skill doesnt proc it.
Someone needs to tighten up this class, its bothersome to me at times.
What really annoys me is the feedback giving for preview of these skills, were never NOT once even looked through on mod 6.. its disheartening that you gave us Gaes and Warding and after much testing and feedback you never responded (IE when we told you both were pretty much junk and Gaes only function is some 1 vs 1 situations in pvp and (at the time) a stun on bosses (or a interrupt depending on how you looked at it)
We never even got a response from one Dev after we clearly asked whether that was Wai or a exploit! Until like 2 months into mod 6 and you just removed completely, leaving it a nonsense skill for pve at all (fine but for pvp, its only a 1 vs 1 skill, as any damage knocks it off)
Warding is even worse, it literally provides no protection of any note worth slotting and its funky to use, divine mode stinks and is nonsensical, weak and worthless. Exhultation rework made it un viable for any situation.
Again, its not that DCs do not have some good skills, I would like to have options and choices back to do things again.
In fact I would like FF to be reworked to give a healing bonus back instead. Gawd that skill was so useful back in the day!
Devs rushed these skills, refused to accept feedback on them at all.
Its really almost a separate discussion, I posted feedback on preview many months ago, saying, the #1 issue is that feedback testing wasnt being responded to (you know the ones that explained all the rank 4 skills not working, enchants broken ect.. new powers were not up to snuff (in fact some are weaker then early skills) To this day CW skill disintegrate DOESNT proc crits or damage as tooltip states, so either tooltip is wrong or the skill is coding incorrectly.
I dont know what happened, but that literally was the worst release, Ive ever seen in my MMO playing history, not just for content, but by extremely poor coding.
I had to spend my own re training tokens, just to fix that bug as well!
myles08807Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 409Arc User
The original poster uses non-Neverwinter terminology ("skills" instead of "powers") so I can hazard a guess that his previous MMO experience is coloring his perspective somewhat. It looks to me like someone is expecting a "healer", and not what the DC actually is.
Myles from Nowhere was my first Neverwinter toon, and my first toon in any MMO ever, and my first DC. I've been playing him since 6/7/13, the last days of open beta. I lived through the Hammer of Fate nerf (don't think I don't know your pain, OP players!) and a number of changed, both helpful and, well, complicated, to my beloved main. I strongly believe that the DC is just fine as is, and I believe that this is a common opinion, because PE zone chat ISN'T full of screeching demands for DC nerfs OR buffs... >:)
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
Faithful and Virtuous DC's are support, Righteous DC's are not.
Righteous DC is support, it can make your team dps looks amazing. Those feats are to buff and debuff for party not for themselves. Party with a righteous and see your damage numbers climb higher than ever.
In addition, doing major hes, that have little need of healing (so ya right now dragonflight, you do ok) but others, everything dies and you get zippo points, because no ONE takes damage) take iwd, you literally have to get there first and get damage taken, or you wont get great success.
Stand in aoes and heal yourself. That always works for HE's. Another handy trick is to pull non-HE mobs into the fight. Slows down the dps, generates more damage to heal. O yeah and don't buff/debuff anything, just heal.
Actually to be honest, I don't see any reason why a DO Righteous DC with Lostmauth Set/Vorpal/60+% crit chance, wouldn't be competitive with a similar CW for paingiver. But that is a separate discussion.
The reason is that cleric AOEs do not have range of a CWs and CWs has faster attack speeds
IF A skill is being used in a NON legit way, count me out.. The exploits need to stop.
Geas is not an exploit, its the only control mechanism a dc has (chains is useless) and its is so situational its disappointing to waste power points on it.
I challenge you, go run your next elol , vt or whatever t1 without ashield
Well thats the challenge, the new dungeons are not as conducive to using astral shield in the boss fights.
VT - She moves around to much, as soon as you drop AS, the party has to run across the map
ELOL - AOEs last too long and you have to run from the rock drops and fire balls. Basically a good tank will hold agro and move back in forth in a 45 degree radius, which AS isn't wide enough to cover.
MC is actually a good one for using AS
Then look at T2 boss fights (even though you excluded them from your challenge)
eGWD - moves everywhere and mob spawns constantly surround you for combat advantage requiring significant moving and often kiting
eTOS - doesn't stand still until second phase
ECC - AOES that never go away
Thats where a rightous DC will definitely struggle , except some nubby "super pros" who will probably come up and tell me they do fine , like it happens in most cases in these threads
I'm 3.1 righteous and not a super pro, but i'll tell you carrying a 2.2 ilvl team with my heals is not fun and in many cases impossible. Righteous is for making high ilvl teams better not for carrying low ilvl teams.
Take that 15% lifesteal and throw it into crit or arp.
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Lifesteal is a defensive stat. You can't replace it with crit or arp. When you pick lifesteal you are typically doing it over hit points. Personally i like using savages hp + lifesteal
again.. you miss the point, I never requested my healing DC to be on par with any striker, but we all need to do dailies, just allowing dual spec would fix the issue for the most part.
And that is where non-support classes miss the point about support classes wanting more damage ability outside of group content. It's not about the damage meter in the dungeon and it's not really about dailys. It's about support classes trying to keep up with dps classes for end game grinding. If you can kill 50% faster you also finish dailys 50% faster which gives you time for other end game content. Also if you kill 50% faster you get twice the loot drops (RP, etc) meaning its easier to make and create a 3k ilvl dps class than a 3k ilvl support class (this isn't just for DCs, this also effects tanks). Not to mention the skill requirements for a support class versus a damage class.
I agree.. which is why I never run Ecc.. because Ive never seen it done legit. Supposedly it has been done a few times.
It's been done legit before it was deemed that some enchantments and skills were overpowered and then "rebalanced", the HP on the ECC boss is far to high, even on a good team its a LONGGGGGG fight and with what shot deaths a risk it is very challenging.
eTOS is totally doable legit which is why its popular.
eGWD i haven't completed since the geas nerf but I've gotten close with 3k ilvl parties. I think the problem was 1) the healer is crp (me) 2) we killed to fast before clearing the mob spawns. Which is where geas was helpful in pacing the fight.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited August 2015
Once again, everyone thinks I was asking for isnt massive changes, but subtle tweaks per se to existing "skills" =P.. sheesh
Yes Ive played many mmos over many years. that experience does give me a wider scope, not a narrow one.
Ive heard the whole "dcs are fine": bit before even while they were terrible outdated. I see the need, I post it.
DC needs more DPS, are you kiding me?! spec full DPS tree and then complain, oh wait theres nothing to about
The BASE damage for a DC does absolutely need an increase. Right now it is horribly horrible to solo anything as a Faithful DC, regardless of gear level. Like silverkelt my Faithful DC has about 50% Arpen, perfect plaguefire, and a IL of about 2.7k, and even doing Arcane Reservoir is a headache that takes forever. I can do it, and I'm never in much danger of dying due to self-heals, but it just takes forever.
Another suggestion would be to change one of the passives that no DC ever uses (such as Soothe perhaps?) into one that increases the DC's personal damage. A healbot DC wouldn't use this in dungeons because the opportunity cost would be too high, but it would go a long way towards helping DCs solo daily content.
Another suggestion would be to rework some of the DC heroic feats (which I agree are atrocious) to do something like what was done to the CW's "Focused Wizardry" feat: create a tradeoff between damage and healing, such that if the feat is selected, healing is decreased by a certain amount but damage is increased by a certain amount. My DC would take that feat, and then in dungeons select healing-focused passives to make up for the loss in healing created by the feat, but while soloing, when heals aren't really needed so much, I could really use the damage boost.
For those concerned about Righteous DC's becoming DPS monsters, I would be content if the Righteous feats were toned down a bit, such that the net result of a base damage increase and the DPS boosts from Righteous feats left the Righteous DC overall mostly unchanged.
Thank you for starting this conversation silverkelt.
I used to feel that way soloing a healer. Then I got myself a good tanky pet with taunt and geared him to the gills. Now I can spend my time dpsing the mob to help him and don't have to do much healing at all.
Pets with taunts are awesome for crafting nodes. Sic the pet on the mobs from a distance then run to the node. If you do it right you'll be out of combat while the pet is still fighting so you can loot the node then just run away. The mobs will be too far away to catch up and the pet will disengage and come right back to your side.
Not saying your suggestions are wrong. You know more about the situations your play style puts you in than I do.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
meh.. i have no issues with healing or dpsing or anything.
dps is a secondary request, my first was to fix our most powerful buff to be useful in pve again..
If a moderator stops by, I think we gave our feedback summed up pretty nicely, you can close this thread, might reopen up another one nearer to mod 8 asking for some adjustments to class, maybe in the temple, to avoid the non discussion of the actual issues.
Well all i can say let the Cleric like it is its an perfect class right now
What's perfect about it?
Is it the 5 min internal cooldowns on 2 of our heroic feats, the feat that gives us +1% crit chance if we can manage to have 40k power, or is it the feat that heals for a portion of our damage on a crit (but doesn't work with our most damaging spells).
Or maybe it's the rank 4 encounters that do a whopping 2-5k damage with 11k power. Or that we heal ourselves for 70% less than we heal other people (faithful gift of faith doesn't count... that's one path).
Oh.. it's cleanse... the feat that no longer removes status ailments and only removes DoTs.
Maybe it's the awesome single target crowd control that only works on trash mobs and breaks whenever someone's AoE scratches it.
Wait, we do have that encounter Warding Flare that can mitigate 7500 damage per second for ONE random ally when auto attacks do 70k in dungeons.
Oh... it's the no CC break, that's the awesome of it.
I love my DC, but seriously... this class got the shaft in this mod and so many mods before. Some of these powers need to be reworked, and please give us Heroic Feats on par with every other class.
Yet you want to make a class that has really no chance of dieing be able to do way more dps? The tradeoff for not being able to die is low dps. If you want to DPS then go the DPS route while not having the survivability....
Wonderful, I just found the perfect signature for all my future posts in TR forum.
Well when you think of it, maybee the double radius and smth like a 5-10% buff to dmg in PVE, in pvp however it needs to retain it's old radius and not have any dmg bonuses
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clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
Well all i can say let the Cleric like it is its an perfect class right now
What's perfect about it?
Is it the 5 min internal cooldowns on 2 of our heroic feats, the feat that gives us +1% crit chance if we can manage to have 40k power, or is it the feat that heals for a portion of our damage on a crit (but doesn't work with our most damaging spells).
Or maybe it's the rank 4 encounters that do a whopping 2-5k damage with 11k power. Or that we heal ourselves for 70% less than we heal other people (faithful gift of faith doesn't count... that's one path).
Oh.. it's cleanse... the feat that no longer removes status ailments and only removes DoTs.
Maybe it's the awesome single target crowd control that only works on trash mobs and breaks whenever someone's AoE scratches it.
Wait, we do have that encounter Warding Flare that can mitigate 7500 damage per second for ONE random ally when auto attacks do 70k in dungeons.
Oh... it's the no CC break, that's the awesome of it.
I love my DC, but seriously... this class got the shaft in this mod and so many mods before. Some of these powers need to be reworked, and please give us Heroic Feats on par with every other class.
To be fair not only the DC got the shaft in this mod. The way I approach it is to see it as a challenge, think of it as playing a higher difficulty level.
Well all i can say let the Cleric like it is its an perfect class right now
Where is Blade Barrier and Resurrection? You really can't call any Cleric a D&D Cleric without at least these 2.
And from past editions : Storm of Vengeance, Earthquake, Greater Planar Ally, Implosion, Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Holy Word, Slay Living etc.
What we have? Warding flare and Geas. A real D&D Cleric is no pushover and certainly NOT what we have in this game. If you really think Cleric should be this weak, then Cryptic has failed WOTC and its IP.
As a cleric since beta, I have no complaints with the class right now. There may be the odd occasion where I get a little overwhelmed, but that's rare.
I run PvP and PvE and enjoy both. Sure, I play mostly with other people, but I feel quite confident in the class to tackle both PvP and PvE dailies alone. The PvE aspect can sometimes take a little longer, but hey-ho, I chose to play a support class, I shouldn't be leading the field in DPS and quite frankly, if I want to go all out on a killing spree, I'd take my CW.
Clerics have always been known for their supportive roles, and I think they accomplish that extremely well in the game or at least I am anyway. Thumbs up from me!
"Here's a circle... I'm not sure it's a real circle, so don't trust it too much!" Idril (AoGlyph)
Well all i can say let the Cleric like it is its an perfect class right now
Where is Blade Barrier and Resurrection? You really can't call any Cleric a D&D Cleric without at least these 2.
And from past editions : Storm of Vengeance, Earthquake, Greater Planar Ally, Implosion, Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Holy Word, Slay Living etc.
What we have? Warding flare and Geas. A real D&D Cleric is no pushover and certainly NOT what we have in this game. If you really think Cleric should be this weak, then Cryptic has failed WOTC and its IP.
Mmmm blade barrier and implosion. mmmmmmmmmmmm Totally broken in an mmo but I still love it. Shouldn't probably happen.
meh.. i have no issues with healing or dpsing or anything.
dps is a secondary request, my first was to fix our most powerful buff to be useful in pve again..
If a moderator stops by, I think we gave our feedback summed up pretty nicely, you can close this thread, might reopen up another one nearer to mod 8 asking for some adjustments to class, maybe in the temple, to avoid the non discussion of the actual issues.
Thanks
Well for what it's worth, I agree with your feedback. Not that Cryptic will implement it any time soon. I had to respec to righteous for soloing (still trying to get my boons in IWD), which makes it interesting sometimes for group/dungeons (perhaps I'm not playing properly). DO Righteous, that is.
I also agree with one of the posters regarding the use of AS and the various dungeons. A lot of the dungeons require moving around too much (which goes to your point that maybe doubling the radius).
Before my DC needs any kind of small buff in his damagetree, warlock has to be fixed
Compared to that class leveling and soloplay with my DC is a cake
DC is a supporterclass and never needs to outdamage anything, otherwise play a pure damage class
Its a never needed call for improvement
This.
I have both and my cleric plays circles around my warlock.
This is not to say that the cleric doesn't have some semi-worthless abilities or things that need tweaking. But that's true of every class. The warlock is just outright borked. You have to get significantly overgeared for the warlock to play normal compared to every other class I've tried. Though I will note I haven't tried HR. Having said that HR doesn't "seem" to struggle as badly as warlock?
Having said that HR doesn't "seem" to struggle as badly as warlock?
HR has one build/playstyle (Trapper) that produces great DPS, and as a plus they are also very fun to play in this style. Unfortunately a lot of people who play HR don't seem to know this build, you can tell who they are because they stand far away from the rest of the group doing terribly low DPS.
Having said that HR doesn't "seem" to struggle as badly as warlock?
HR has one build/playstyle (Trapper) that produces great DPS, and as a plus they are also very fun to play in this style. Unfortunately a lot of people who play HR don't seem to know this build, you can tell who they are because they stand far away from the rest of the group doing terribly low DPS.
Totally agree. In my opinion everyone who familiar with quick switching/spamming on DC with divinity, will adapt to trapper quickly. Some time ago i realized i don't interested in play anymore with anything "slower" than trapper HR.
Comments
and yes.. when this game started to mod 3.. a DC could do dalies at a reasonable rate, it wasnt until that release in IWD, that made it super slow as they increased HP for mod 3,4 and then in 6 (mod 5 was a breeze, because every dc was a righteous one)
But back in mod 1 and 2, you were alwasy a hybrid (either hybrid pvp with extra stanima, or hybrid pve with hollowed ground heal) back then you could easily do your dailies at a reasonable rate in mods 1 and 2.
Im not looking to replace a dps, just make it a little more reasonble honestly. Frankly you cant die with a cw or gwf either on landscape, so its not apples to apples ans oranges to oranges either.
Well thats part of what we are discussing. HOW do we get our most powerful buff to be effective with parties again.
Double the size of the radius, add a dps component buff to it.
Back in the early mods, all DCs were hybrid builds because that was the only viable build. That, coupled with the old lifesteal meant that a. we were crappy healers, and b. no one needed a healer anyway. All we brought to the table was the buff/debuff, and the majority of that came from gear. No one needed a healer in dungeons, so if you didn't have a friendly guild your only option was to PUG and hope the rest of the party had a clue.
You're not wrong that current solo play isn't tenable for DCs, but I vastly prefer the current options to the old ones.
I'm not entirely sure what your build is but my DC is AC/Faithful, I use BoH, Exaltation, and HW in dungeons all the time. The amount of heals that come from Exalt. + HW combo are amazing. Exalt. increases the healing the comes from HW substantially so I don't need use DG or anything else for healing/buff when I'm in a dungeon. Plus Exalt buff is awesome but of course this encounter is only at it's peak when you have the feat for it in the faithful tree.
Anyway, that is my input on the DC and those specific encounter powers you meantioned. I suggest trying out my encouter set up, you might like it. If you do, use Exalt. first and then HW and watch those hitpoints climb.
I don't really have any comment about soloing my DC as I have found that if my friends are online they are always willing to help.
I think, that most rightous DCs will refrain from running PuG. I do. Even in Mod 4, before the LS and AS nerf, I did not run PuG and I still remember some DDs in a premade I got invited to, who complained about 'bad healing'. I explained, that my spec is for buff/ debuff. After some more complaining I told them, that with my dmg buffs, LS and AS they should do fine or they dont do enough dmg. In Mod 4 a good DD was able to facetank everything exept onehits. I switched to healing, we did complete the dungeon and I left the group.
A rightous DC is great for a good group, for most PuGs it is a waste of time, bc you cant use your buffs and you suck at healing, compared to an equaly geared DC of one of the other specs.
I have run ECC enough times to get all 1800 seals, I ran this with virtuous, faithful and righteous and every single were all random PUG runs with high and low item levels. I could not spot any real difference between the three with regards to healing, with righteous it goes a bit faster. My only main healing encounter used is well timed "Bastion of Healths", I even slot "Daunting Light" to make it go a bit faster. The final boss for PUGS is obviously done the "unorthodox" way, but even with virtuous or faithful I have yet to come across a PUG that could do it.
This is a bit off topic, but I have theory that my Frost enchantment does make things go smoother in dungeons. Everyone talks about Vorpal and Terror but this underrated enchantment I think has saved many lives, hitting those archers from a distance with "Divine Glow" and giving the rest of the party time to move on top of them really does help. I assume most people don't want to use this especially the DPS classes, but for clerics this controller enchantment is very useful.
I did say I tried it with both virtuous and faithful, one can be hitting 100k heal over times, but should the hexer and the archers spawn and there are fireballs all around them then you will be one shotted. The boss fight basically ends ups with binary health meters, either its completely full or completely empty.
One can safely assume that the legit success rate of ECC for PUGS is 0% (even that giant brain boss did not have that failure rate), and not every PUG is made up of bad or under geared players. If the T2 dungeons are only meant for "only mythics need apply" guilds then they should state it as such. Also if the final boss can only be finished with having a very specific class and path, then that also should be stated as well, because the game designers did say this is not supposed to be the case.
Which is why I voted for reduced hardness for t2s, due to this being a full pita.
I'm NOT saying "Nerf Pala"!
I'm intending to say something along the lines of: If there's a revamp for DC, give them a direct AoE-heal at-will instead of e.g. ASeal, maybe with an enabling/boosting/improving1 feat in Virt (HoT) and Faith (InstaHeal)...
It just shouldn't be that any DevPally, as a member of an off-tank class, has more and more powerful fast heals than the core healer. DC buff/debuff capabilities notwithstanding - because those are not so great for V/F-DCs.
REMOVE warding flare, its a piece of junk and give DCs a Mass Heal with a good buff.
ALSO someone please fix DG.. I have a trans plague and my most used skill doesnt proc it.
Someone needs to tighten up this class, its bothersome to me at times.
What really annoys me is the feedback giving for preview of these skills, were never NOT once even looked through on mod 6.. its disheartening that you gave us Gaes and Warding and after much testing and feedback you never responded (IE when we told you both were pretty much junk and Gaes only function is some 1 vs 1 situations in pvp and (at the time) a stun on bosses (or a interrupt depending on how you looked at it)
We never even got a response from one Dev after we clearly asked whether that was Wai or a exploit! Until like 2 months into mod 6 and you just removed completely, leaving it a nonsense skill for pve at all (fine but for pvp, its only a 1 vs 1 skill, as any damage knocks it off)
Warding is even worse, it literally provides no protection of any note worth slotting and its funky to use, divine mode stinks and is nonsensical, weak and worthless. Exhultation rework made it un viable for any situation.
Again, its not that DCs do not have some good skills, I would like to have options and choices back to do things again.
In fact I would like FF to be reworked to give a healing bonus back instead. Gawd that skill was so useful back in the day!
Devs rushed these skills, refused to accept feedback on them at all.
Its really almost a separate discussion, I posted feedback on preview many months ago, saying, the #1 issue is that feedback testing wasnt being responded to (you know the ones that explained all the rank 4 skills not working, enchants broken ect.. new powers were not up to snuff (in fact some are weaker then early skills) To this day CW skill disintegrate DOESNT proc crits or damage as tooltip states, so either tooltip is wrong or the skill is coding incorrectly.
I dont know what happened, but that literally was the worst release, Ive ever seen in my MMO playing history, not just for content, but by extremely poor coding.
I had to spend my own re training tokens, just to fix that bug as well!
*cough* your own guild is doing eCC legit frequently.
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
Myles from Nowhere was my first Neverwinter toon, and my first toon in any MMO ever, and my first DC. I've been playing him since 6/7/13, the last days of open beta. I lived through the Hammer of Fate nerf (don't think I don't know your pain, OP players!) and a number of changed, both helpful and, well, complicated, to my beloved main. I strongly believe that the DC is just fine as is, and I believe that this is a common opinion, because PE zone chat ISN'T full of screeching demands for DC nerfs OR buffs... >:)
It's DND, clerics have aura's
"Proper role" hahaha cleric <> healer, characters should be able to queue for the role they wish to play
Righteous DC is support, it can make your team dps looks amazing. Those feats are to buff and debuff for party not for themselves. Party with a righteous and see your damage numbers climb higher than ever.
Stand in aoes and heal yourself. That always works for HE's. Another handy trick is to pull non-HE mobs into the fight. Slows down the dps, generates more damage to heal. O yeah and don't buff/debuff anything, just heal.
The reason is that cleric AOEs do not have range of a CWs and CWs has faster attack speeds
AS has not been the same since the mechanic change. The blue shield used to be amazing and the lifeblood of the class
Geas is not an exploit, its the only control mechanism a dc has (chains is useless) and its is so situational its disappointing to waste power points on it.
Well thats the challenge, the new dungeons are not as conducive to using astral shield in the boss fights.
VT - She moves around to much, as soon as you drop AS, the party has to run across the map
ELOL - AOEs last too long and you have to run from the rock drops and fire balls. Basically a good tank will hold agro and move back in forth in a 45 degree radius, which AS isn't wide enough to cover.
MC is actually a good one for using AS
Then look at T2 boss fights (even though you excluded them from your challenge)
eGWD - moves everywhere and mob spawns constantly surround you for combat advantage requiring significant moving and often kiting
eTOS - doesn't stand still until second phase
ECC - AOES that never go away
I miss Astral Seal, between the Astral Seal nerf and the cleanse nerf it became useless.
I'm 3.1 righteous and not a super pro, but i'll tell you carrying a 2.2 ilvl team with my heals is not fun and in many cases impossible. Righteous is for making high ilvl teams better not for carrying low ilvl teams.
Take that 15% lifesteal and throw it into crit or arp.
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Lifesteal is a defensive stat. You can't replace it with crit or arp. When you pick lifesteal you are typically doing it over hit points. Personally i like using savages hp + lifesteal
A good stunner TR can
And that is where non-support classes miss the point about support classes wanting more damage ability outside of group content. It's not about the damage meter in the dungeon and it's not really about dailys. It's about support classes trying to keep up with dps classes for end game grinding. If you can kill 50% faster you also finish dailys 50% faster which gives you time for other end game content. Also if you kill 50% faster you get twice the loot drops (RP, etc) meaning its easier to make and create a 3k ilvl dps class than a 3k ilvl support class (this isn't just for DCs, this also effects tanks). Not to mention the skill requirements for a support class versus a damage class.
It's been done legit before it was deemed that some enchantments and skills were overpowered and then "rebalanced", the HP on the ECC boss is far to high, even on a good team its a LONGGGGGG fight and with what shot deaths a risk it is very challenging.
eTOS is totally doable legit which is why its popular.
eGWD i haven't completed since the geas nerf but I've gotten close with 3k ilvl parties. I think the problem was 1) the healer is crp (me) 2) we killed to fast before clearing the mob spawns. Which is where geas was helpful in pacing the fight.
Yes Ive played many mmos over many years. that experience does give me a wider scope, not a narrow one.
Ive heard the whole "dcs are fine": bit before even while they were terrible outdated. I see the need, I post it.
I used to feel that way soloing a healer. Then I got myself a good tanky pet with taunt and geared him to the gills. Now I can spend my time dpsing the mob to help him and don't have to do much healing at all.
Pets with taunts are awesome for crafting nodes. Sic the pet on the mobs from a distance then run to the node. If you do it right you'll be out of combat while the pet is still fighting so you can loot the node then just run away. The mobs will be too far away to catch up and the pet will disengage and come right back to your side.
Not saying your suggestions are wrong. You know more about the situations your play style puts you in than I do.
dps is a secondary request, my first was to fix our most powerful buff to be useful in pve again..
If a moderator stops by, I think we gave our feedback summed up pretty nicely, you can close this thread, might reopen up another one nearer to mod 8 asking for some adjustments to class, maybe in the temple, to avoid the non discussion of the actual issues.
Thanks
What's perfect about it?
Is it the 5 min internal cooldowns on 2 of our heroic feats, the feat that gives us +1% crit chance if we can manage to have 40k power, or is it the feat that heals for a portion of our damage on a crit (but doesn't work with our most damaging spells).
Or maybe it's the rank 4 encounters that do a whopping 2-5k damage with 11k power. Or that we heal ourselves for 70% less than we heal other people (faithful gift of faith doesn't count... that's one path).
Oh.. it's cleanse... the feat that no longer removes status ailments and only removes DoTs.
Maybe it's the awesome single target crowd control that only works on trash mobs and breaks whenever someone's AoE scratches it.
Wait, we do have that encounter Warding Flare that can mitigate 7500 damage per second for ONE random ally when auto attacks do 70k in dungeons.
Oh... it's the no CC break, that's the awesome of it.
I love my DC, but seriously... this class got the shaft in this mod and so many mods before. Some of these powers need to be reworked, and please give us Heroic Feats on par with every other class.
Wonderful, I just found the perfect signature for all my future posts in TR forum.
To be fair not only the DC got the shaft in this mod. The way I approach it is to see it as a challenge, think of it as playing a higher difficulty level.
Where is Blade Barrier and Resurrection? You really can't call any Cleric a D&D Cleric without at least these 2.
And from past editions : Storm of Vengeance, Earthquake, Greater Planar Ally, Implosion, Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Holy Word, Slay Living etc.
What we have? Warding flare and Geas. A real D&D Cleric is no pushover and certainly NOT what we have in this game. If you really think Cleric should be this weak, then Cryptic has failed WOTC and its IP.
I run PvP and PvE and enjoy both. Sure, I play mostly with other people, but I feel quite confident in the class to tackle both PvP and PvE dailies alone. The PvE aspect can sometimes take a little longer, but hey-ho, I chose to play a support class, I shouldn't be leading the field in DPS and quite frankly, if I want to go all out on a killing spree, I'd take my CW.
Clerics have always been known for their supportive roles, and I think they accomplish that extremely well in the game or at least I am anyway. Thumbs up from me!
Mmmm blade barrier and implosion. mmmmmmmmmmmm Totally broken in an mmo but I still love it. Shouldn't probably happen.
Well for what it's worth, I agree with your feedback. Not that Cryptic will implement it any time soon. I had to respec to righteous for soloing (still trying to get my boons in IWD), which makes it interesting sometimes for group/dungeons (perhaps I'm not playing properly). DO Righteous, that is.
I also agree with one of the posters regarding the use of AS and the various dungeons. A lot of the dungeons require moving around too much (which goes to your point that maybe doubling the radius).
We shall see.
This.
I have both and my cleric plays circles around my warlock.
This is not to say that the cleric doesn't have some semi-worthless abilities or things that need tweaking. But that's true of every class. The warlock is just outright borked. You have to get significantly overgeared for the warlock to play normal compared to every other class I've tried. Though I will note I haven't tried HR. Having said that HR doesn't "seem" to struggle as badly as warlock?
HR has one build/playstyle (Trapper) that produces great DPS, and as a plus they are also very fun to play in this style. Unfortunately a lot of people who play HR don't seem to know this build, you can tell who they are because they stand far away from the rest of the group doing terribly low DPS.
— (The unwritten rule)
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF