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Cash Shop Concerns, Nerfs [Renamed]

quasimojo1quasimojo1 Posts: 642 Arc User
edited October 2014 in Champions Online Discussion
I'd like to use this post to try to document the instances where Cryptic/PWE has released an apparently overpowered item available via microtransactions, sold and promoted it for many months, and then significantly nerfed the item much later (often coinciding with the introduction of some newer item for sale). Perhaps looking at this track record, players will be able to make better informed decisions before investing much effort/time/money into the newest microtransaction items.


8/31/2012

10/18/2012
Legion Gear released as upper-tier Lockbox prize
Legacy Devices released for purchase from Drifter Store

11/8/2012
Prototype Hawkwing Jets Nerfed (Speed/Boost/Attack Range), after 2 months of sales

New "Mark 1" Vehicles Released for Lockbox lottery, Zen store, Drifter store
Railgun weapon released (only via top-tier Drifter Store item)
Incendiary Round weapon released (only via top-tier Drifter Store item)
Plasma Beam weapon released (only via upper-tier Hover Tank Lockbox prize)

9/7/2013
Legion Gear indirectly nerfed (by changing to diminishing return curves on dodge%, crit%), after 11 months of sales

Justice Gear introduced

9/10/2013
3/3/2014
Mark 1 Vehicles Nerfed - Combat Speed, after 19 months of sales
Gravity Pulse weapon nerfed (1 second rechard between taps/# of targets capped), after 16 months
Plasma Beam weapon nerfed (plasma shear), after 16 months
Vehicle mods "fixed"
Mark 2 Vehicles/Upgrade Kits released via lockbox, Z-store, Drifter store
"Mark 2 Vehicles have higher Attack, Defense, and Speed, and generally have improved Slots"
Mark 3 weapons added to Q-Store for 295K Questionite (increase damage by 20%)

3/11/2014
Railgun weapon nerfed (range), after 16 months
Micromunitions rebalanced (unclear if buff or nerf)
Incendiary Round weapon nerfed (# of Targets/Energy Cost/Taunt), after 16 months

9/17/2014
Plasma Beam weapon nerfed (damage effectively decreased by 20%), 6 months after Mark 3 upgrade (which increased damage by 20%) offered

9/22/2014
Regenerative Biosteel vehicle mod nerfed (vehicle energy gain)

10/14/2014
Plasma Beam weapon nerfed yet again (damage, plasma shear removed)
AA Missile weapon nerfed (damage, energy cost)
Heavy Cannon weapon buffed (damage, recharge time)


Some things to think about:
  • Is there a pattern of "pay-to-win" items being offered for sale and then nerfed months later?
  • Is there a pattern of "forced obsolesence" of pay-to-win items, i.e. the old version is devalued as a new & improved item is offered for sale?
  • If so, who benefits from these patterns? Who is harmed?
  • Is it a good business practice to continually "burn" the customers that pay for these things?
  • Is it reasonable for microtransaction items to be retroactively and majorly devalued by the development team months after purchase?
  • Can these situations be reasonably avoided by industry-standard development/testing practices?
  • If not, is it ethical to be offering these via microtransaction/pay-to-win at all?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    The target limit on gravity pulse was nerfed, I can't find the date.

    And on FC.31.20140303.1 PTS Update
    Gravity Pulse now has a 1 second recharge time between taps.
  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited March 2014
    A very good and informative topic. Should give people something to think about before spending money.
    But of course only small percent of the playerbase reads forums.

    Now, the issue weren't nerfs, as game-wise they were needed.

    But that items were released and sold in their pre-nerfed state. That should never be a thing and it happened far too often to call it a mere mistake.
  • sistersiliconsistersilicon Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Can somebody show me where in the game's Terms of Service one can find a clause rendering C-store, Q-store, or lockbox items immune to balancing within the rules of the game? Or an official statement from Cryptic Studios declaring the game's numbers permanently and irrevocably balanced as of a specific date?
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  • quasimojo1quasimojo1 Posts: 642 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Can somebody show me where in the game's Terms of Service one can find a clause rendering C-store, Q-store, or lockbox items immune to balancing within the rules of the game? Or an official statement from Cryptic Studios declaring the game's numbers permanently and irrevocably balanced as of a specific date?

    Can somebody show me where anyone referenced the game's Terms of Service to make it all relevant to the discussion?

    No one is making a legal argument here. Like I said in the OP, it's a matter helping future players make more informed decisions. I do agree that if the business model were not tied directly to microtransactions for these items it would be much less of an issue.
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  • thatcursedwolfthatcursedwolf Posts: 484 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Can somebody show me where in the game's Terms of Service one can find a clause rendering C-store, Q-store, or lockbox items immune to balancing within the rules of the game? Or an official statement from Cryptic Studios declaring the game's numbers permanently and irrevocably balanced as of a specific date?

    It's in the armchair and Monday morning lawyer section.
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  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited March 2014
    Nothing in the OP was about ToS. Or that items should not be balanced.

    This topic is just a polite and friendly information for future potential buyers to help them in making decision if they want to buy things as soon as they appear in the store, or not.

    After all, it's only a fair thing to do so. We don't want fellow players making uninformed purchases in the future, right? :smile:
  • kallethenkallethen Posts: 1,576 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    sistersilicon wasn't saying you are violating ToS.


    Calling it "Bait and Switch" implies that Cryptic is actively and purposely trying to get you to pay for a product and then give you something inferior. Such practice I would agree is immoral and could be illegal. If I by a stero at a store, I should expect to get what is described on the box.

    HOWEVER, this is a computer game with ongoing development and changes. It is, by nature, amorphous. To expect powers or items to stay static is counter to maintaining the quality of the game.
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  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    kallethen wrote: »
    sistersilicon wasn't saying you are violating ToS.


    Calling it "Bait and Switch" implies that Cryptic is actively and purposely trying to get you to pay for a product and then give you something inferior. Such practice I would agree is immoral and could be illegal. If I by a stero at a store, I should expect to get what is described on the box.

    HOWEVER, this is a computer game with ongoing development and changes. It is, by nature, amorphous. To expect powers or items to stay static is counter to maintaining the quality of the game.

    It certainly looks like it is purposely done, so implying it is purposely done seems reasonable to me. If it is not Cryptic’s intent to make us buy “pay-to-win and overpowered, but nerfed after a year” items, they are just really really bad at balancing these things... which I must admit also sounds very plausible.

    Either way, they do deserve the negative feedback about his.
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Can somebody show me where in the game's Terms of Service one can find a clause rendering C-store, Q-store, or lockbox items immune to balancing within the rules of the game? Or an official statement from Cryptic Studios declaring the game's numbers permanently and irrevocably balanced as of a specific date?

    It's more of an issue of cash shop ethics.

    Cryptic is selling over powered items, making money from it, then deciding to balance item much later. This practice raises a lot of questions. Is it OK for Cryptic to do this? I understand that they aren't a charity, but they are making money with an item that just going to be changed later. Is there a point that this is too much? Is making money more important than maintaining good customer relations? Is this fair to the customers?

    Most importantly: Am I OK with this behavior?

    These kinds of questions are very important to me and don't have an easy answer. Some of the things that Cryptic does to monetize the game do bother me and I need to decide at what point is it no longer acceptable. I also need to decide if how Cryptic runs their game is more important than the community I'm part of in the game. Do I want to support a game with cash shop ethics I can't agree with because I value the other players in the game? Now I'm questioning my own values and beliefs.

    This isn't such a simple issue and I don't know how to answer these questions.
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  • zahinderzahinder Posts: 2,382 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    There's also a question in that if poor QA and lazy development effectively increases profits... then Cryptic isn't exactly greatly motivated to fix their problems, are they?

    It doesn't have to be conscious or calculated to have an effect.
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  • quasimojo1quasimojo1 Posts: 642 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I don't know what Cryptic's intent is. People can draw their own conclusions about that.

    However, I would say on that point that the timing of some of the nerfs seems a little suspect to me:
    • Prototype vehicles were nerfed as new vehicle models were released.
    • Legion Gear-related diminishing returns were changed shortly before new Justice Gear was released.
    • Top tier vehicle weapons are nerfed as new "Mark 3" vehicle weapons are to be introduced to the Q Store (and potentially new lockbox vehicle weapons).
    • It remains to be seen still what additional changes are being made to "Mark 1" vehicles as new "Mark 2" upgrade kits are to be introduced.

    I'm glad to see some of the recent changes to the game. But I would be happier if new things could be introduced without a related nerf to the thing I thought I had just bought a few months ago, and assumed was balanced because it's been in the game for a year. Once you see the pattern, it raises a lot of questions..for some of us, anyway.
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  • themightyzeniththemightyzenith Posts: 4,599 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    *grabs popcorn*....'cause I know what's about to happen.
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  • kallethenkallethen Posts: 1,576 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    *grabs popcorn*....'cause I know what's about to happen.
    And that's why I'm gonna just leave with as I stated in my previous post. The foreseeable argument isn't worth it.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    The speed of the prototype Hawkwing was nerfed because it required more powerful computers than either Cryptic or most of their end users currently have in order to render the background at top velocity. That wasn't spotted in testing because as any programmer can tell you, no test situation can ever match the ingenuity of end users in finding new ways to break the coding. (That's why the PTS exists, so that those of us with access can try to break stuff before it goes Live; sadly, there seem to be very few Gold players who are interested in breaking things. In STO, when Legacy of Romulus needed testing, the test server was opened to at least some Silver players. I don't know if something similar could be done here, but it might help.)

    Most of the other nerfs can probably be laid to the same thing; Cryptic's kind of a shoestring operation (in case you hadn't noticed), and can't afford to employ a large staff of testers, so they've thrown the position open to Gold volunteers. And the volunteers don't seem to be volunteering in droves...
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  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    jonsills wrote: »
    The speed of the prototype Hawkwing was nerfed because it required more powerful computers than either Cryptic or most of their end users currently have in order to render the background at top velocity.

    I was wondering about that, how will it work out with those rank2 vehicles, those get a pretty hefty speed bonus. Maybe that is the reason why those jets don't have a r2 option yet.
  • shieldtowershieldtower Posts: 1,208 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    kallethen wrote: »
    sistersilicon wasn't saying you are violating ToS.


    Calling it "Bait and Switch" implies that Cryptic is actively and purposely trying to get you to pay for a product and then give you something inferior. Such practice I would agree is immoral and could be illegal. If I by a stero at a store, I should expect to get what is described on the box.

    HOWEVER, this is a computer game with ongoing development and changes. It is, by nature, amorphous. To expect powers or items to stay static is counter to maintaining the quality of the game.

    Consistently changing how items function or adjusting them to be weaker/somewhat undesirable just after a "balancing pass" and just before releasing newer and better items suggests a not-so-amorphous trend. A trend that players should be aware of if they plan on making informed choices.
    jonsills wrote: »
    The speed of the prototype Hawkwing was nerfed because it required more powerful computers than either Cryptic or most of their end users currently have in order to render the background at top velocity. That wasn't spotted in testing because as any programmer can tell you, no test situation can ever match the ingenuity of end users in finding new ways to break the coding. (That's why the PTS exists, so that those of us with access can try to break stuff before it goes Live; sadly, there seem to be very few Gold players who are interested in breaking things. In STO, when Legacy of Romulus needed testing, the test server was opened to at least some Silver players. I don't know if something similar could be done here, but it might help.)

    Most of the other nerfs can probably be laid to the same thing; Cryptic's kind of a shoestring operation (in case you hadn't noticed), and can't afford to employ a large staff of testers, so they've thrown the position open to Gold volunteers. And the volunteers don't seem to be volunteering in droves...

    That's not quite true. Travel powers used to have a noticeably higher top speed early on. Not Proto-Hawkwing top speed but faster nonetheless. They all got hit with the slow stick because of the very same server instability issues that prompted the Proto-Hawkwings to also get hit with the slow stick. They've known for quite some time that going certain speeds caused problems.
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  • chaelkchaelk Posts: 7,732 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    *grabs popcorn*....'cause I know what's about to happen.

    *munchs popcorn, while keeping count of slander and defamation of character quotes"
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  • kentekokenteko Posts: 80 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    It's appalling and a bit of a dirty tactic to post balance passes (most of which took place more then a year after the fact, making them atrocious bait/switches) that were requested by the players at large. Gravity pulse's nerf was a resounding combination of cries from players who wanted to play content and couldn't (Blood Moon) due to Gravity Pulse trivializing it. Incendiary Rounds and Railgun were SPECIFICALLY pointed out in the PTS threads by PLAYERS, as was Plasma Beam, before they even showed up as patch notes.

    What I'm effectively reading is "Cryptic tried to swindle us" instead of "Cryptic put out content it couldn't effectively test, then had to make changes after the people consuming the content found out the problems." This is incredibly disrespectful and reeks of sour grapes.
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    kenteko wrote: »
    It's appalling and a bit of a dirty tactic to post balance passes (most of which took place more then a year after the fact, making them atrocious bait/switches) that were requested by the players at large. Gravity pulse's nerf was a resounding combination of cries from players who wanted to play content and couldn't (Blood Moon) due to Gravity Pulse trivializing it. Incendiary Rounds and Railgun were SPECIFICALLY pointed out in the PTS threads by PLAYERS, as was Plasma Beam, before they even showed up as patch notes.

    What I'm effectively reading is "Cryptic tried to swindle us" instead of "Cryptic put out content it couldn't effectively test, then had to make changes after the people consuming the content found out the problems." This is incredibly disrespectful and reeks of sour grapes.

    The powers and mechanics that got a nerf were overperforming, no question. But it was not like that is anything new, or was not pointed out long long ago. They should never have made it into the game in this state, and certainly not kept and sold for a year+. It is not like some super secret and obscure combination of circumstances made them severely overpowered, they were just plain and simple overpowered pay-to-win items.
    (almost) None I see is complaining about the nerfs themselves. I hope cryptic doesn't read into it that their choices made now are wrong. It is the choices made a year ago when those items were first added that were wrong, and now they'll just need to handle the fallout.
  • quasimojo1quasimojo1 Posts: 642 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    aiqa wrote: »
    The powers and mechanics that got a nerf were overperforming, no question. But it was not like that is anything new, or was not pointed out long long ago. They should never have made it into the game in this state, and certainly not kept and sold for a year+. It is not like some super secret and obscure combination of circumstances made them severely overpowered, they were just plain and simple overpowered pay-to-win items.
    (almost) None I see is complaining about the nerfs themselves. I hope cryptic doesn't read into it that their choices made now are wrong. It is the choices made a year ago when those items were first added that were wrong, and now they'll just need to handle the fallout.

    Exactly. It's not hard to find similar feedback about many of the items in question in the PTS threads and elsewhere when they were first introduced a year or so ago. It's a fact that Cryptic/PWE benefits by offering overpowered items for microtransaction and only doing a "balance pass" as they introduce the newer versions. Does that mean it's intentional? No, not necessarily, and it doesn't really matter whether it is or not--the effect to the players is the same.

    I'd like to believe that these mistakes/actions are all in the past, but so far there's not much to base that particular opinion on. At any rate, there's nothing "disrespectful" about consumers holding a company somewhat accountable for their previous business decisions by posting a timeline (oh, the drama!)
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  • thatcursedwolfthatcursedwolf Posts: 484 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    quasimojo1 wrote: »
    At any rate, there's nothing "disrespectful" about consumers holding a company somewhat accountable for their previous business decisions by posting a timeline (oh, the drama!)

    Just like there's no disrespect if you say "with all due respect" or "I'm not saying your a $BAD_THING" first, right?

    Phrasing is import. Bait and switch has a connotation to it that implies malice, forethought, and impropriety.
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  • selpheaselphea Posts: 1,229 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Should Night Avenger AT and Throwing Blades be part of that too?

    I also don't think you need to do a lot of testing to know that a cash shop device that gives god mode should be handled very very delicately.

    Same with a stacking DoT attack doing over twice the damage of the average player DoT per stack, while having more than twice the range of the average targeted AoE and affecting an area 11 times bigger than other targeted AoEs.

    Still, most of these things were introduced before Cryptic North. CN simply had the unenviable job of cleaning up the mess. The content that CN has made so far - the Laser Sword and Telepathy additions, as well as Justice Gear, seem to have been done with more reception to player feedback. There's been a few instances where CN has toned down something from an initial, ridiculously strong incarnation before ever leaving PTS.
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    edited March 2014
    kenteko wrote: »
    \
    What I'm effectively reading is "Cryptic tried to swindle us" instead of "Cryptic put out content it couldn't effectively test, then had to make changes after the people consuming the content found out the problems."

    Very well put.
    quasimojo1 wrote: »
    Does that mean it's intentional? No, not necessarily, and it doesn't really matter whether it is or not--the effect to the players is the same.

    The problem is that you're labeling it as bait-and-switch, which is intentional fraud.
    selphea wrote: »
    Still, most of these things were introduced before Cryptic North. CN simply had the unenviable job of cleaning up the mess.

    This is a good point. It's very doubtful that they looked on the previous team's calendar and saw "A sufficient amount of time has passed since we've made these overpowered items, time for the ol' bait-and-switch nerf."
    biffsig.jpg
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    It doesn't matter that it was intentional or due to poor planning that these things were introduced. It matters that it happened. That means taking responsibility for the things they add to the game, especially the things that are being sold for real money.


    While some of you think topics like these are just for giggles, the sad part is that 95% of players will never voice their concerns and simply leave. No one will ever know if they saw this trend and left or if it was simply due to another game grabbing their attention.
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  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    edited March 2014
    sterga wrote: »
    It doesn't matter that it was intentional or due to poor planning that these things were introduced. It matters that it happened. That means taking responsibility for the things they add to the game, especially the things that are being sold for real money.

    It does matter that it happened, and I do think this is an important topic, but the problem is that by calling it a bait-and-switch, you're a) not promoting friendly discourse, and b) inviting the topic to go off the rails by having people come in and counter that claim. If it ends up turning into a big fight over what it actually is, the topic gets closed and then gets no further attention. Not what we want, is it?
    biffsig.jpg
  • iamruneiamrune Posts: 964 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    It does matter that it happened, and I do think this is an important topic, but the problem is that by calling it a bait-and-switch, you're a) not promoting friendly discourse, and b) inviting the topic to go off the rails by having people come in and counter that claim. If it ends up turning into a big fight over what it actually is, the topic gets closed and then gets no further attention. Not what we want, is it?

    So, can't we rename it?
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    It does matter that it happened, and I do think this is an important topic, but the problem is that by calling it a bait-and-switch, you're a) not promoting friendly discourse, and b) inviting the topic to go off the rails by having people come in and counter that claim. If it ends up turning into a big fight over what it actually is, the topic gets closed and then gets no further attention. Not what we want, is it?

    I read that as a statement on how some people feel about it, or (warning to cryptic) how it could be perceived, not as an actual accusation backed up with proof.
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    edited March 2014
    iamrune wrote: »
    So, can't we rename it?

    If the thread author requests it. While I personally don't agree with the claim, I won't force words into his mouth.
    biffsig.jpg
  • quasimojo1quasimojo1 Posts: 642 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    The problem is that you're labeling it as bait-and-switch, which is intentional fraud.

    Well, all I can say is, if you think nitpicking the title of the thread is more important than the context of the message or, more importantly, the ethics of this type of microcommerce shenanigans, whether intentional or not, then I think you are missing the point.

    I would also like to give CN the benefit of the doubt.

    However, let's think about some possible things a well-intentioned company might consider in these kinds of situations:

    1.) A statement addressing why customers might have more confidence about purchasing cash shop items in the future (or not.)
    2.) When powers are changed, affected players are generally offered a Retcon token. A similar mechanism could be offered to exchange cash shop items if nerfed.
    3.) When the developers realize that a microcommerce item is going to need to be changed when they get around to it, they could pause the sales of the item or at least inform the customers that they plan to review the item.
    4.) If all of the above is impossible, and it's impossible to generally balance an item before release, maybe it shouldn't be offered via microcommerce at all?
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  • quasimojo1quasimojo1 Posts: 642 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    aiqa wrote: »
    I read that as a statement on how some people feel about it, or (warning to cryptic) how it could be perceived, not as an actual accusation backed up with proof.

    Yes. It is possible to use the words bait and switch without it being a legal accusation.

    Bait-and-Switch1.jpg

    I think that it accurately describes the potential perception of many of those affected.
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  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    quasimojo1 wrote: »
    Yes. It is possible to use the words bait and switch without it being a legal accusation.

    Except in the context of the title of your post you are making that accusation, as well as the tone of your posts.
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  • iamruneiamrune Posts: 964 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Except in the context of the title of your post you are making that accusation, as well as the tone of your posts.

    This is my read as well, if you want to make the accusation, own it, don't play at it like a *troll trying to make someone else say it.


    *Note I am not calling you or anyone else a troll, but this IS classic troll tactics.
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    edited March 2014
    quasimojo1 wrote: »
    Well, all I can say is, if you think nitpicking the title of the thread is more important than the context of the message or, more importantly, the ethics of this type of microcommerce shenanigans, whether intentional or not, then I think you are missing the point.

    The reason is because that's my only concern with this thread. I'm not saying anything for or against the actual actions of nerfing or changing paid-for items because I personally don't care. I own some of the items that you're putting in the bait-and-switch scheme, but I don't care that they're being nerfed because I personally think they should be. However, I also believe that there's no excuse* for leaving the items in their broken state for so long and then fixing them later, when they want to do an update to them. So I hope that clarifies my position here. I'm not missing any point, I just simply don't care about that one.

    *Other than the fact that it appears we didn't have an active development team for a long time, and now it seems the small team we do have is stretched thin, so they can't get around to fixing all the bugs ever.
    I would also like to give CN the benefit of the doubt.

    However, let's think about some possible things a well-intentioned company might consider in these kinds of situations:

    1.) A statement addressing why customers might have more confidence about purchasing cash shop items in the future (or not.)
    2.) When powers are changed, affected players are generally offered a Retcon token. A similar mechanism could be offered to exchange cash shop items if nerfed.
    3.) When the developers realize that a microcommerce item is going to need to be changed when they get around to it, they could pause the sales of the item or at least inform the customers that they plan to review the item.
    4.) If all of the above is impossible, and it's impossible to generally balance an item before release, maybe it shouldn't be offered via microcommerce at all?

    The thread title implies that you're not giving them the benefit of the doubt, to be honest. You're making a pretty bad accusation with it. But more to the point, plenty of people got refunds for their Prototype Hawkwings when their speed was initially reduced. Why don't you consider that option?
    biffsig.jpg
  • r9xchaosr9xchaos Posts: 533
    edited March 2014
    The thing with the nerf is that is is unfair...



    It is like you are Buying a TV with color and HD function.. then after you have it like 1 months in your Livingroom they come and remove the HD and Color Function from the TV...
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    r9xchaos wrote: »
    The thing with the nerf is that is is unfair...



    It is like you are Buying a TV with color and HD function.. then after you have it like 1 months in your Livingroom they come and remove the HD and Color Function from the TV...

    Not even close to an approximation of what's going on.
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  • quasimojo1quasimojo1 Posts: 642 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Is this the Forumites team pile-on? :smile:

    I think I've been pretty clear and consistent about what my opinion is, and there's no need to try to put words in my mouth.

    If this were just about me or the few bucks I've dropped, I'd certainly just bring it up with support. I happen to think it's a significant, ongoing issue affecting lots of people, many have left the game over it in the past, and that it merits discussion.
    LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.

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  • fr0gurtfr0gurt Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    The thread title implies that you're not giving them the benefit of the doubt, to be honest. You're making a pretty bad accusation with it. But more to the point, plenty of people got refunds for their Prototype Hawkwings when their speed was initially reduced. Why don't you consider that option?

    Also when the legacy devices got nerfed, the devs also unbound them all so that players could sell off excess copies or distribute them to other characters.

    The accusation of the Dodge/Crit changes as a nerf to Legion gear is weak to begin with -- it affects all gear that grants Dodge and Crit. Also left out were buffs to Offense, Dodge abilities, and low Dodge/Crit scores that also came with the balance pass.

    As far as the new nerfs to vehicle weapons go... When powers get nerfed, affected characters get a free retcon token. We could once again go the legacy device route and apply a maintenance token to all current vehicles that will pop out all mods for free.
  • r9xchaosr9xchaos Posts: 533
    edited March 2014
    Not even close to an approximation of what's going on.


    Mh can you explain me how it is not?


    I bought Keys for Lockboxes to get Drifter Salvage... based on the ZEN price of a key i bough Keys worth 40 Dollars ....with this i bought FireAnt ...


    MY Incendary Rounds will be nerfed... i paid for it and then it will be nerfed...


    Bait n Switch
  • lafury001200lafury001200 Posts: 567 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    My 2 locals:

    I don't think this is malicious or bait and switch really, but focusing on the title when the op made it clear he didn't mean it in a legal sense does not seem fair. Further, one cannot be charged with a count of bait and switch, it would have to be fraud, larceny, g larceny, etc etc etc.

    I think what's happening is simply them tinkering with existing items (training) while offering upgrades in an attempt to make money. And imo, it's a stalling tactic. They can say they are working on the game without addressing the elephant in the room, the lack of new content.

    Finally this isn't really a legal issue. If you feel cheated, contact your financial institution and they will back you up too the hilt, but understand one thing before going that route: YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO PLAY CO,STO,NW, AND UPCOMING SUPER SECRET PROJECT WHATEVER EVER AGAIN.
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    r9xchaos wrote: »
    Mh can you explain me how it is not?


    I bought Keys for Lockboxes to get Drifter Salvage... based on the ZEN price of a key i bough Keys worth 40 Dollars ....with this i bought FireAnt ...


    MY Incendary Rounds will be nerfed... i paid for it and then it will be nerfed...


    Bait n Switch

    Called game balance, and what is going on will be brought in line with the other powers it is similar to. It isn't a bait and switch because game balance is an ongoing process. For it to be a bait and switch, which the OP and you are completely using the term wrong, they would have to have sold the item to you with the promise that it would not be adjusted or brought in line in the future. And which is also funny, because you wouldn't complain if the item received a buff. In fact the hypocrisy of this thread is that if these items were boosted instead no one would be saying bait and switch then.

    Furthermore, you didn't pay cash for this item, you paid for the vehicle it was attached to, at best. And if you bought it on the auction house, then you paid no money for it to begin with, since the in game currency is owned by Cryptic, not you. The game evolves and changes and as the game changes they eventually balance things. I am sorry you can't snipe something without repercussions anymore with this weapon, but if something breaks the game, it needs to be fixed, regardless if you believe it's unfair or not.
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  • sistersiliconsistersilicon Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    r9xchaos wrote: »
    Mh can you explain me how it is not?


    I bought Keys for Lockboxes to get Drifter Salvage... based on the ZEN price of a key i bough Keys worth 40 Dollars ....with this i bought FireAnt ...


    MY Incendary Rounds will be nerfed... i paid for it and then it will be nerfed...


    Bait n Switch

    So now we're back to my original point: Why does anybody think they're immune to balance changes because they acquired something by cash?

    Where does that logically end? Does it make a difference if the zen I use to buy from C-store comes from my credit card or Q farming? Would a nerf to something I won from a gamblebox scale with the number of keys I bought? What if I sell it or buy it on the auction house? How does that apply to items unlocked by a monthly or lifetime subscription?

    Or did you expect Cryptic to have everything perfectly balanced on day one and remain perfectly balanced every day thereafter regardless of what else changes? Because Warlords of Draenor is celebrating WoW's 10th anniversary with some major changes to healing, if you haven't heard.

    If you don't expect change from an MMO, you're hopelessly naive.
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  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited March 2014
    But isn't it lovely convenient for the seller, when things are unbalanced in an obviously beneficial (for the buyer) way practically each time when they're released?

    Isn't it a bit strange, how conveniently these couldn't be checked and balanced, each time? Not like these glitches weren't obvious and pretty easy to find.

    Aren't coincidences a wonderful thing? :smile:

    But the most important question is. Will players finally learn to not buy things blind, but to wait and see? :smile:
  • flyingfinnflyingfinn Posts: 8,399 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Atleast they gave me a free Prototype Hawk Jet. Well, the Zen i spend on them anyway and got to keep the Jets.
    And it's only money, you can allways get more of it.
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  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    flyingfinn wrote: »
    And it's only money, you can allways get more of it.

    I am tempted to have a sig now....
  • viivsyn2viivsyn2 Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    r9xchaos wrote: »
    Mh can you explain me how it is not?


    I bought Keys for Lockboxes to get Drifter Salvage... based on the ZEN price of a key i bough Keys worth 40 Dollars ....with this i bought FireAnt ...


    MY Incendary Rounds will be nerfed... i paid for it and then it will be nerfed...


    Bait n Switch

    AGREED!

    i bought keys as well so i could get an arrowhead.. after something like 50 lockboxes (50 dollars worth) i got the arrow head plus i was about to get a desert fox with the salvage..

    i feel completely ripped off and really don't think i'll be spending anymore money on the game if the stuff i buy could possible be nerfed.. or removed

    mass grave for vehicles coming up from cryptic
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • thatcursedwolfthatcursedwolf Posts: 484 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    viivsyn2 wrote: »
    mass grave for vehicles coming up from cryptic

    Maybe they'll unbind vehicles so they can be scooped up from all the ragequitters.
    This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Unfortunately, a game with a complex set of combat mechanics like CO is going to be subject to nerfs and balances just like any other MMORPGs. Combat-specific items bought from the Z-store aren't exempt from such balances if they're found to be overpowered in some way. A disclaimer to inform the player before making the purchase, stating that the vehicles are subject to balances, might help a little.

    That's not to say that more extensive testing couldn't have been done on the PTS before the vehicle mods went live. If during testing and with the right mod setup it's found that a player is able to solo cosmics or wipe out the Bloodmoon undead heroes with ease then something obviously could have been done to tweak them.
  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,073 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Just for my personal thought.

    Incen/Railgun nerf are for making ppl to spent more money on Mark3 weapons. Everything are OP while they want to sell it.
    spend-all-the-money.jpg
  • selpheaselphea Posts: 1,229 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    monaahiru wrote: »
    Just for my personal thought.

    Incen/Railgun nerf are for making ppl to spent more money on Mark3 weapons. Everything are OP while they want to sell it.

    As long as we don't get Mk3 Incendiary and Railgun with +20ft range...
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    So now we're back to my original point: Why does anybody think they're immune to balance changes because they acquired something by cash?

    It's less of a question of being immune to nerfs but more of a question as to why thing that need a nerf are being sold. It's a question of ethics, not power balancing.

    It almost seems like PWI / Cryptic is experimenting with F2P tactics to see how well they work. In this case, powerful items are being released. Customers are get used to having that power. Power is then nerfed and a new powerful item is released. It creates a desire to maintain power by spending money.
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