Since you guys want them to be on par with player characters, stick to that scope now.
I tend to agree.
But, since vehicles do not require either a subscription nor have a $50 each price tag, I do not think that they should be on par with freeform characters. Perhaps a decent AT.
Which are often very underpowered. How about, on part with the Savage then hmmm?
Sorry about that, I was assuming that we would choose one of the better AT option to balance for as vehicles do carry a cost. I used the term, "decent," instead of, "good," to avoid comments along the lines of, "no AT is good."
Remember, vehicles have to reload, player characters do not.
Not exactly true. Aside from some freeform builds, players do still have to build energy (I haven't tried many archetypes, but the ones I have all require the use of the energy builder as well). This is a pretty similar mechanic to reloading.
I'd like to exchange both the multiple copies of missles that I've bought over the past year, as well and the 10 plasma 3s that I've picked up as well. If you could manage to do this somehow, I'd be extremely grateful.
in game vendor that refunds questionite for plasma beams
Since some people bought the weapon (or the vehicle containing the weapon) with drifter salvage or from another player for G this sort of brings up conversion issues. Instead, allowing the exchange of recently revised weapons for a different weapon of similar declared value might be a more viable option.
Not exactly true. Aside from some freeform builds, players do still have to build energy (I haven't tried many archetypes, but the ones I have all require the use of the energy builder as well). This is a pretty similar mechanic to reloading.
C'mon Smackwell, you know there's plenty of ways to get around using an Energy Builder unless you're throwing full-charge Force Cascades or something, and even then you can avoid the EB with a proper build.
The savage is the sole AT that can take hits because it has a very good self heal(regeneration), has very solid damage AND is actually able to stand reasonably well up against freeforms in pvp even in some cases.
Don't think that PvP should be a consideration for this.
I wouldn't say that the Savage is the sole AT that can take hits, but it is a very decent build for an AT. The Marksman has some potential as well (and can out self-heal the savage under the right circumstances).
But players generate far more energy far faster due to an energy unlock and competent builds don't even have to touch their energy builder 90% of the time. This is especially true of munitions and electricity. Even without killer instinct or ionic revirb, you can cut the time down very, very sharply with molecular self assembly, with the right spec you'd only need about half a second to go from empty to full energy most of the time.
I almost never use my energy builder on any build i make, only if I actually screw up my power timing .
Edit: I'll clarify that, competent build isn't even necessarily a full min/max build, just one thats thematic but still uses popular energy management tricks. But vehicles have to reload every single time they run out of energy, a player character built properly as a freeform will likely often at times only energy build the first 1-2 seconds of a fight.
C'mon Smackwell, you know there's plenty of ways to get around using an Energy Builder unless you're throwing full-charge Force Cascades or something, and even then you can avoid the EB with a proper build.
Look, a bunch of people that have been around the block a few times aren't going to convince me that most people play without using Energy Builders. Not everyone runs Frankenbuilds that cherry-pick powers that make no sense for their characters just to be as effective as possible. There are people who know the tricks but won't use them on characters that don't work. There are people who don't know the tricks. There are Archetypes who don't even have the option to think about the tricks. Lots of people who are still leveling don't have the legroom yet to use those tricks.
I've been running the Undead Heroes Open Missions (on a character who doesn't need an Energy Builder, for whatever that's worth) and what do I see? Lots of people there are using their Energy Builders. I run all kinds of Alerts, and you guessed it, people use Energy Builders.
I think my point stands, saying that players don't have to reload is just false. While I agree that energy costs are out of control right now, I don't think vehicles should be anywhere near "broken Biosteel" levels. Saying that "players don't have to reload" is just like saying that players come with infinite energy right out of the box. That's false. You have to build for it, spend power points, and spend advantage points. If you want a vehicle that has endless energy, I think you need to invest heavily into mods that provide you that luxury, not just slap a few Rank 4 McMods on your ride and call it a day.
Lowbies tend to have to end build quite a bit, as will any build that relies on getting hit (Defiance) for energy but is not getting hit- if you run alerts you are quite more likely to encounter both of these cases.
But even many ATs have little to no end building needed by lvl 40. The ones that don't tend to be the ones that are missing things like an EU and/or a energy-gaining toggle.
Besides, note the 'well-designed' clause. Having energy issues by lvl 40 is not what I'd call 'well-made'. Just because lowbies or inexperienced players or sub-optimal builds are end building more doesn't mean that should be the balancing standard, esp when you use that qualifier.
Anyways, if this were a large balancing pass for normal powers we'd get a free retrain token (I'd hope), so I'd prob be on board w/ the compensation ideas.
We knew that Plasma Beam was OP when we were first testing and playing R2 vehicles. Cryptic was intentionally ignored this because it drove Vehicle Tune Up Kit and R3 vehicle weapon sales.
If you claim otherwise and that Cryptic wasn't aware, then they simply weren't reading the PTS forum thread.
If you can still claim otherwise and that Cryptic wasn't aware, negligence doesn't excuse you from making mistakes. Especially when there was a PTS saying that Plasma Beam was doing so much damage with the intro to R2 vehicles. Cryptic said it was working as designed.
Cryptic said it was working as designed.
__________
As for the thread OP, can we include costume sets from the Store too?
Nighthawk tights removed from use in jackets. (On Purpose)
Victorian dress ribbon color cannot be changed anymore from primary color of dress. (Update Negligence)
Besides, note the 'well-designed' clause. Having energy issues by lvl 40 is not what I'd call 'well-made'. Just because lowbies or inexperienced players or sub-optimal builds are end building more doesn't mean that should be the balancing standard, esp when you use that qualifier.
I don't want to put words in your mouth but this sounds a lot like "if you have to use your Energy Builder at 40, you're playing wrong."
There's a problem with people thinking the way they play is the standard. Power builders, folks who do extensive research, work on builds for weeks in the Powers forums (not your average, casual player) are the standard. It's the kind of thinking that leads to things like Forum Malvanum difficulty.
I'm seriously just baffled that people can actually get behind this "player characters do not have to reload," thing.
I don't want to put words in your mouth but this sounds a lot like "if you have to use your Energy Builder at 40, you're playing wrong."
There's a problem with people thinking the way they play is the standard. Power builders, folks who do extensive research, work on builds for weeks in the Powers forums (not your average, casual player) are the standard. It's the kind of thinking that leads to things like Forum Malvanum difficulty.
I'm seriously just baffled that people can actually get behind this "player characters do not have to reload," thing.
Again, its all moot when you consider something being 'well-designed' would go hand-in-hand w/ it not running into energy issues too often to perform its basic functions. That doesn't mean 'no end building whatsoever', ofc, but if ya see that you have to 'reload' every time you use a power, for ex., something is prob amiss.
Also revisit the point that even many ATs don't often (or ever) have to end build by lvl 40 if you think it only applies to 'power builders'. It really just takes an EU (or something like Unstoppable/Rush) and an energy-granting toggle- that's not really setting high reqs for a build, imo. Nay, I'd say most lvl 40 builds manage to avoid end building just cause it really doesn't take that much by lvl 40 gearing and building guidelines. Only really expensive powers still require more measures by then.
If they stated that they would set the bar lower for vehicles, I think your premise would have more credence. Also, I'm not arguing that content should be balanced for the 'elite'- I'd argue the opposite for stuff that is open mission or avail in public queues, but that's bit of a diff topic.
This issue is becoming more of one just due to the PB and AAM cost hikes. Casting 7+ heavy cannons before a reload isn't really that bad, and ya can still channel tractor beam or grav pulse for a long time, etc. Its just kinda all over the map now and I dun really know where CN is trying to go w/ it. Just circling back to the original point that reloading is starting to be more of an issue for Vehicles when it comes to balancing.
I can fully agree that energy costs are all over the place. You can run around with Grav Pulse firing quite a bit. The latest changes to those three weapons are kinda out there. Fully agreed that you shouldn't have to reload every two or three shots.
Still, vehicles should have to reload, it's part of their design. Just like energy building is. You can build for not having to build energy, and you can take quick reload and something to help build energy as well. I still fully stand by my point that "player characters don't reload" is a silly thing to say.
Yes, I know that energy tricks can be shoehorned into builds, but it becomes silly if you have any consideration for theme. I mean, I have a character that's just a big muscley brute. Super Strength is his only super power. But to be considered "okay" by what some people think is standard, this character needs to be able to reconstruct his body at the molecular level and lunge at his enemies that are already in his face, meanwhile throwing water balloons and snowballs at them while also giving them kissy-kisses with mistletoe so he doesn't have to throw a few energy-building punches at them?
*No, I don't know which devices trigger MSA. :biggrin:
Yes, I know that energy tricks can be shoehorned into builds, but it becomes silly if you have any consideration for theme. I mean, I have a character that's just a big muscley brute. Super Strength is his only super power. But to be considered "okay" by what some people think is standard, this character needs to be able to reconstruct his body at the molecular level and lunge at his enemies that are already in his face, meanwhile throwing water balloons and snowballs at them while also giving them kissy-kisses with mistletoe so he doesn't have to throw a few energy-building punches at them?
*No, I don't know which devices trigger MSA. :biggrin:
Well, if ur talking a thematic Might toon, then you'd have Defiant or Unstoppable I assume, in addition to Enrage. That'd be fine, really. Not everything needs an EU to not struggle w/ energy, and there's alternatives out there ofc.
(and most devices w/ a cd should trigger MSA, which is more of a weird quirk in the programming I'd assume.. but I'll take it )
I guess it makes sense that tank vehicles have more energy issues than others, but I'd also argue the tank role for players has an unnecc energy penalty and that doesn't need to be copied as a limitation- since its not like hover tanks gain energy on hit or when using Dampening Field (the 'vehicle block', I've been told).
Perhaps, in CN's world, a move like the new PB is meant to be a dps move analogous to Force Cascade. I dunno, but if so then I'd expect *huge* damage per total cast, but also viable alternatives for setups that can't really afford it.
If you want a vehicle that has endless energy, I think you need to invest heavily into mods that provide you that luxury, not just slap a few Rank 4 McMods on your ride and call it a day.
I just want to respond to this, because it struck me as being way out of line with reality.
Here's the reality: I ran a vehicle with plasma beam (rank 2), and 2x rank 6 biosteel, and 2x rank 6 enemy hull scanner (cost reduction, which is why those are relevant). I had to reload. That felt about right - I could do a fair bit, but sustained combat forced me to "use my energy builder" equivalent.
After the biosteel nerf, those same 2x r6 biosteel provide literally negligible energy regeneration - they don't give me even one extra shot of plasma beam inbetween reloads. But I could still get... I forget the exact numbers, but something like three or four shots off, which was tolerable.
After the final plasma beam nerf? Two shots and I'm out of ammo; I could probably be toting 2x r9 biosteel and have to reload just as often. This is not fun.
So no, there was NEVER a time where you could "just slap a few Rank 4 McMods on" and get unlimited ammo. You needed at a minimum Rank 7 mods, in all four slots, devoted to ammo management, and you know what? That counts as "heavy investment" in my book.
Edit: Oh, and the above? That's for spamming just plasma beam. Want to fit in anything else, like a healing drone or anti-air missiles? You needed a lot more ammo regen than I had, that's for sure.
If only they made stupid random changes to powers still to keep the game interesting. I don't care about stupid expensive vehicle parts and if they need to be nerfed or not. I just wish they would play around with numbers on the powers randomly just to change up viable builds now and again. Who cares if it's balanced anymore.
From the time vehicles were announced I thought it has to be like happen in STO, ship battles are ship battles, ground battles are ground battles.
At some point in the development, the idea of having mixed fights mainly because some people rejected vehicles has finally starting biting CN back and it will continue doing it no matter how much balancing they do. It is not much different from having PVE and PVP all together.
I would say that the solution is:
1) Normally vehicles will work as a device travel power but with no combat allowed, so you can use it for long distances. On damage the player should get out the vehicle automatically.
2) Instances with vehicles should be all time in vehicle. Like SC or LI no more character choosing not using vehicles on those instances
3) The rest of the instances should follow either the device travel power approach or even better no vehicle at all.
Instances like forum malvanum were vehicles made bearable its bad design should be tuned properly.
I never said the energy cost for plasma beam is okay. I basically said the opposite.
I never said you did - you may note that the statement I was objecting to wasn't anything about current PB cost, but the one where you defended the biosteel nerf by claiming that pre-nerf was easy-mode infinite energy.
about 10 have int,rec or end as a SS. and most of those are at's.
I use my talents to get int/rec/end
My utility gear has cost discount. usually once I get the energy unlock at about 24-25, it has no energy problems.
some of the at's are like that anyway. Mind has no energy problems, once it's unlock is available.
yes some require using the EB and some don't, it depends on what powers you use and how much energy they take and how they get it.
I have a ranged dps who can heal with overdrive and no Pre stat. she builds energy attacking and can then transfer it to others with Celestial conduit.
Maintains.
same as MSA, depends on what your aim is, what you use.
Biosteel would have been great if they cut the frequency of the ticks OR the amount. They nuked both. Plasma beam would have been fine if they made the plasma sheer stack on the player, OR eliminated it and gave it a dps boost. They made it so even well modded a bike can only fire 2 blasts AND cut the dps. AA missiles would have been fine if they cut the damage, upped the energy, OR nerfed the buff. THEY DID ALL 3.
There's definitely an air of blas
In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008. RIP Caine
I'm going to clarify what I mean by a thematic build. It doesn't necessarily mean staying to only 1-2 powersets, but generally supportive powers such as molecular self assembly are neutral in theme. They can fit any kind of character from magic to technology to purely natural. Any thematic built freeform is generally going to have molecular self assembly because it has no real major graphical effect.
Just because it doesn't fit in a powerset doesn't mean it's not a decent fit. A super strength muscle guy for example may have molecular self assembly more as a means that he's very physically fit and has a little bit of endurance .
Ah yes. My dumb muscle-bound brute also has to be super intelligent to bring them cooldown timers down to really squeeze the energy out of MSA.
And (I haven't used it in a while) doesn't it have a tech-ish look to it, similar to Reconstruction Circuits, or did they remove the effect when they made the auras? It wasn't the first "everyone needs to have this power" that I never took because the effects didn't look right.
@taco - Sorry if it seems that I'm hand-waving the issue. I do think the nerfs were hamfisted, and I agree 100% that there should be some kind of refund system (don't know if I've posted that or only said it in-channel). It makes perfect sense that if heroes get retcons when a power changes, so should a vehicle.
Honestly when I first saw that patch on PTS, I thought "No way is this going to stay like this. This'll go a few rounds of changes," especially since we weren't in the middle of some new content that plasma beam was overperforming in. Then after I heard the results of people testing it, I thought my hunch was confirmed. Boy was I surprised.
However. I am part of the "If it's over performing, expect it to be nerfed," crowd. I'm surprised that Two Gun Mojo has lasted, what, two years in its current incarnation? I fully expect it to be nerfed. Just like Boomerang Toss, or Throwing Blades, whichever it was. I've always rolled with the punches when it came to nerfs.
I'll still use vehicles when I can get them re-equipped (I blew most of my Questionite arming a bike for Mechanon...) and just like I expect over-performers to be nerfed, I expect under-performers to be fixed. I also think that guy who started selling off his weapons the day the patch went up on PTS was acting a bit too hasty (pretty sure we're talking about the same guy). There's been three changes to Plasma Beam in a very short time; I don't expect this time to be the last.
Did anyone lsiten when I said this would happen? When I warned that nerf-herders and tryhards would cause this kinda crap?
Nooooooooo.
Taco's got every right to be pissed. And this needs to serve as a lesson as to why every single cry for a nerf must be shot down, shouted down, and mocked off the board without mercy.
Everyone take note: This is exactly how you convey constructive criticism towards the matter at hand.
I look forward to the day when people can be rational about things that are essentially not a big deal instead of flipping out and name calling everyone who doesn't agree with them. I love that counter arguments to my general support of balance, which includes nerfs, is to be called a douchebag.
There was never a reason to gear more than one or two vehicles out. Having the exact same loadout on 10+ was excessive. You want to be cavalier with how you spend your money, fine. Coming to the boards, throwing around how you spent SO much money, and acting like a child over something so incredibly minor in the grand scheme of things does not make me care about your opinion or position.
Even after these nerfs, vehicles are still very powerful for what they are considering you need to invest far less into them then you would a powerful FF build.
'Constructive criticism' has obviously failed. It was ignored. And it was derided like you're doing now.
If you're saying that my reply to you was in any way "deriding constructive criticism", you're sadly mistaken. Nothing in your post was constructive; it was just a vindictive, sweeping attack of insults against anyone who ever had a legitimate view on imbalances in the game. Also I have stated previously that I'm not in support of the Plasma Beam nerf and suggested that some sort of compensation be carried out. Misdirected anger much?
If you're saying that my reply to you was in any way "deriding constructive criticism", you're sadly mistaken. Nothing in your post was constructive; it was just a vindictive, sweeping attack of insults against anyone who ever had a legitimate view on imbalances in the game. Also I have stated previously that I'm not in support of the Plasma Beam nerf and suggested that some sort of compensation be carried out. Misdirected anger much?
Take a nap.
Your sarcasm is clearly OP. Something has to be done about it, but what?
Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
Did anyone lsiten when I said this would happen? When I warned that nerf-herders and tryhards would cause this kinda crap?
Nooooooooo.
Taco's got every right to be pissed. And this needs to serve as a lesson as to why every single cry for a nerf must be shot down, shouted down, and mocked off the board without mercy.
Listen? Why yes, we did listen to your cries of doom and gloom. Problem is, some of us actually want balance, not endless power inflation.
Right now, balance means a buff to plasma beam; reducing its cost significantly should be good enough. Also, buffs to most other vehicle weapons. And mini-mines. And a small nerf to 2GM. And so on and so forth.
So if you could stop trying to spread doom and gloom in every thread where someone dares to ask for balance, I, personally, would appreciate it. Thanks!
We can stop saying TGM needs a nerf now. Its one of the first powers that have been updated to the new balanced formula. What we need is more powers to fall in line with it, not for us to progress back.
Plasma Beam did need a nerf, just not a triple one.
It's a huge screw up and it's ticked people off and the nerf-heads are gloating "Haha told you so!", what do you expect of anyone at this point? People, are, angry.
Personal attacks against people expressing an opinion about how the game should be balanced might very well result in those who think that certain elements were out of balance losing any concern over the feelings of those who support the attacks. Its really hard to muster sympathy for people calling other players idiots, nerf-heads, calling for anyone who disagrees with them on matters of game balance to be banned, and so on.
Am I glad that people lost money on game elements that no longer serve the purpose for which they were purchased ? No. I have always supported the idea that if a cash shop item is nerfed heavily after being sold as working as intended refunds should be offered. I think that this particular aspect of Cryptic's treatment of its player base indicates very poor ethical standards on the part of those making the decisions.
I also note that Cryptic has a history of excessive balance swings. They seem to rarely make small incremental changes but rather sweeping massive modifications. This seems to be another example of that.
I also note that Cryptic has a history of excessive balance swings. They seem to rarely make small incremental changes but rather sweeping massive modifications. This seems to be another example of that.
The interesting thing is that they were - prior to this latest nerf - actually proceeding carefully a little bit at a time, avoiding over-nerfing. So people complained about getting nerfed multiple times, instead. Some people are never happy...
The interesting thing is that they were - prior to this latest nerf - actually proceeding carefully a little bit at a time, avoiding over-nerfing.
Must have missed that stage. The heavy handed over-nerf (and over-buff for that matter) approach goes back to launch. If something is a bit of an outlier it gets hit with a hammer until it is all but useless.
Must have missed that stage. The heavy handed over-nerf (and over-buff for that matter) approach goes back to launch. If something is a bit of an outlier it gets hit with a hammer until it is all but useless.
Well, compare to things like the dodge nerf, and the crit nerf, and all three prior plasma beam nerfs... Cryptic North has been doing pretty well up until now. Honestly, it kinda feels like someone pushed this patch to live by accident...
Well, compare to things like the dodge nerf, and the crit nerf, and all three prior plasma beam nerfs... Cryptic North has been doing pretty well up until now. Honestly, it kinda feels like someone pushed this patch to live by accident...
My take on the worst of the nerfs over the last five years is a knowledgeable and hardworking dev at his desk playing with the most recent iteration of a given balance adjustment when a suit walks by and asks, "you're still working on that ?!?!? You have any idea how over budget this patch is ?!?! Push it live. Now !!!"
There was never a reason to gear more than one or two vehicles out.
Unless you care about cosmetics. I personally don't care about vehicle appearances, but it's not a ridiculous thing to care about, any more than collecting any other sort of costume.
If vehicles were better designed this wouldn't be a problem (either as travel powers, or as reskinnable devices) this wouldn't be a factor, but, well...
Please stop talking about "knowing that the game WILL shut down." You don't know that and the only thing that comes out of statements like that is arguments.
@bluegrass, please dial it back a notch. I know you're angry, but insulting other players is not going to help you get your point across, and if it continues and derails the thread with further insults and it gets out of hand, I'll have to close it. Thanks.
I wouldn't say that i'm sympathetic but understanding why they are reacting this way.
You have some good points though but remember, at this point I am not even sure anything is worth talking about here.
And yes they have a long history of excessive balance swings. It's so bipolar and it's a mistake they seem to never learn from.
I think the real mistake is, honestly, sacrificing the games identity in the end with the introduction of the Archtypes. That, is the worst mistake ever made. It could, have been avoided, but now there is no fixing it .
I think that ATs could have been a fine addition by having them better built. If CO is going to have the equivalent of character classes then each should have been designed to be on par with a reasonably well built FF of the same theme. Make them something that even a subscriber might be interested in playing if he wants to have a solid character of the given theme without having to spend hours testing or reading build guides.
Everyone pointing fingers at one another trying to find the villain. Well, if the position is still open....allow me to provide the narration. :cool:
Yes, the PB Nerf was pretty much 90% spot on the money. It was rushed, it needed more time, and it's cost is too high. That being said....cut the cost a touch and it performs pretty well in the grand scope of things.
Biosteel was fixed for the most part. It's not a huge deal overal since it's not, like some would believe, the "ONLY" way to build a vehicle.
People are still using vehicles and they're starting to look at other builds instead of X+Y+Z = The Only Win. I don't see people in zonechat anymore ONLY taking people for teams if they have PB. In the end, call it what you like, but I'm calling it 1 energy cost adjustment away from successful. Overall, I am FAR more concerned with the haste of the last PTS push than anything that really came from it and that's with Heavy Cannon getting a boost so it's actually being used ingame.
Overall, yes, this did take too many steps but there were unforseen consequences and 2 people who pretty much sabotaged Vehicles 2.0 from the beginning to end by flooding the original thread to where it was useless and actual data was buried. Honestly, if alot of the mistakes of 2.0 had been caught and handled properly before it went live then most of the opposition present in this thread wouldn't have a leg to stand on because it wouldn't have been OP so there wouldn't have been any nerfs for them to be angry about. Sheer wouldn't have gone live in the 1st place. The age old stacking bug wouldn't have shown up at the Mechanon OM. People wouldn't have yelled at each other in zonechat over it. Sheer wouldn't have needed to be killed. People would not have been angry about it. Heck, we might have even had more stuff in BM right now and people would be too busy going after it and not squabbling here over bait and switch conspiracy theories(of which I do not subscribe to just so we're clear on that).
Blue: You're an angry person. Take a few breaths and calm down a notch. Witch Hunts for people who do not share your opinions is not the solution. I, for example, do not share your opinions on the majority of topics but ya know what....that's ok. I do not see why you would want overpowered easy-mode things in the game where you can fall alseep at the keyboard rolling over anything in your path because that is not how I, personally, game(neither of us are alone in our opinions as evidenced in this thread though). The difference, though, is night and day on approach. There simply is no need for all this name calling and constant attempts to try to assign those who disagree with you in such a negative light. I do not go around shadowy corners twirling my mustache between my fingers and trying to bring about the death of this game with every action I take(we actually have someone for that job around here already who shall remain nameless). I suspect both of us wish to enjoy this game, neither of us wish for it's demise, and both want what they feel is best. I'm just not as negative about the whole thing.
Xan: Now you I'm going to give the rare benefit of the doubt about in order to explain a few things. The way I see it you're The King of The Bitter CoXers who has only reappeared on these forums to stoke the flames and anger of the recent patching in a quest for personal amusement and to see your own prophecy of the demise of this game, which has no right to even exist since your game of choice no longer exists, and dance upon it's grave while spiriting the few people(it's not the majority of the playerbase, they didn't all come from City, let's not even pretend either of us believe that) who knew better all along to the promised land of the return of your beloved game and thus making you a digital messiah and setting the Superhero MMO World back into perfect balance as one game rises from the ashes like a majestic phoenix and the vile horrid CO dies the death it so richly deserves.
So while this is a public forum and you are entitled to be here so long as you don't break any more rules in some kind of epic(hilarious) meltdown of near Biblical Proportions I just have to ask. If you're not here to "watch the world burn" as they say...what purpose DO you serve on these forums? Is it just to cause mayhem while you spread the word of your super top secret ulta important thing that nobody else could possibly know about to your legion of loyal followers? Is there more?
Honestly, in the end, people are angry now. CN will likely have to, I hope, do some additional very very minor adjustments on the energy cost of PB and take steps in the future to improve the PTS to Live Process. Then the majority of us can get back to where we were before all of this business...and some can find their next point of complaint. So things will pretty much go back to normal.
Unless you care about cosmetics. I personally don't care about vehicle appearances, but it's not a ridiculous thing to care about, any more than collecting any other sort of costume.
If vehicles were better designed this wouldn't be a problem (either as travel powers, or as reskinnable devices) this wouldn't be a factor, but, well...
How people spend their money is not my concern until it gets shoved in my face in a whiny rant. Being unhappy about the PB nerf is one thing, going insane in the forums and throwing around insults is another. Especially considering the changes aren't that bad. It's more a question of how people are reacting to the latest nerf, not that it happened.
Comments
I tend to agree.
But, since vehicles do not require either a subscription nor have a $50 each price tag, I do not think that they should be on par with freeform characters. Perhaps a decent AT.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Sorry about that, I was assuming that we would choose one of the better AT option to balance for as vehicles do carry a cost. I used the term, "decent," instead of, "good," to avoid comments along the lines of, "no AT is good."
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Not exactly true. Aside from some freeform builds, players do still have to build energy (I haven't tried many archetypes, but the ones I have all require the use of the energy builder as well). This is a pretty similar mechanic to reloading.
Thanks!
XS
C'mon Smackwell, you know there's plenty of ways to get around using an Energy Builder unless you're throwing full-charge Force Cascades or something, and even then you can avoid the EB with a proper build.
Don't think that PvP should be a consideration for this.
I wouldn't say that the Savage is the sole AT that can take hits, but it is a very decent build for an AT. The Marksman has some potential as well (and can out self-heal the savage under the right circumstances).
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Look, a bunch of people that have been around the block a few times aren't going to convince me that most people play without using Energy Builders. Not everyone runs Frankenbuilds that cherry-pick powers that make no sense for their characters just to be as effective as possible. There are people who know the tricks but won't use them on characters that don't work. There are people who don't know the tricks. There are Archetypes who don't even have the option to think about the tricks. Lots of people who are still leveling don't have the legroom yet to use those tricks.
I've been running the Undead Heroes Open Missions (on a character who doesn't need an Energy Builder, for whatever that's worth) and what do I see? Lots of people there are using their Energy Builders. I run all kinds of Alerts, and you guessed it, people use Energy Builders.
I think my point stands, saying that players don't have to reload is just false. While I agree that energy costs are out of control right now, I don't think vehicles should be anywhere near "broken Biosteel" levels. Saying that "players don't have to reload" is just like saying that players come with infinite energy right out of the box. That's false. You have to build for it, spend power points, and spend advantage points. If you want a vehicle that has endless energy, I think you need to invest heavily into mods that provide you that luxury, not just slap a few Rank 4 McMods on your ride and call it a day.
But even many ATs have little to no end building needed by lvl 40. The ones that don't tend to be the ones that are missing things like an EU and/or a energy-gaining toggle.
Besides, note the 'well-designed' clause. Having energy issues by lvl 40 is not what I'd call 'well-made'. Just because lowbies or inexperienced players or sub-optimal builds are end building more doesn't mean that should be the balancing standard, esp when you use that qualifier.
Anyways, if this were a large balancing pass for normal powers we'd get a free retrain token (I'd hope), so I'd prob be on board w/ the compensation ideas.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
If you claim otherwise and that Cryptic wasn't aware, then they simply weren't reading the PTS forum thread.
If you can still claim otherwise and that Cryptic wasn't aware, negligence doesn't excuse you from making mistakes. Especially when there was a PTS saying that Plasma Beam was doing so much damage with the intro to R2 vehicles. Cryptic said it was working as designed.
Cryptic said it was working as designed.
__________
As for the thread OP, can we include costume sets from the Store too?
Nighthawk tights removed from use in jackets. (On Purpose)
Victorian dress ribbon color cannot be changed anymore from primary color of dress. (Update Negligence)
I don't want to put words in your mouth but this sounds a lot like "if you have to use your Energy Builder at 40, you're playing wrong."
There's a problem with people thinking the way they play is the standard. Power builders, folks who do extensive research, work on builds for weeks in the Powers forums (not your average, casual player) are the standard. It's the kind of thinking that leads to things like Forum Malvanum difficulty.
I'm seriously just baffled that people can actually get behind this "player characters do not have to reload," thing.
Also revisit the point that even many ATs don't often (or ever) have to end build by lvl 40 if you think it only applies to 'power builders'. It really just takes an EU (or something like Unstoppable/Rush) and an energy-granting toggle- that's not really setting high reqs for a build, imo. Nay, I'd say most lvl 40 builds manage to avoid end building just cause it really doesn't take that much by lvl 40 gearing and building guidelines. Only really expensive powers still require more measures by then.
If they stated that they would set the bar lower for vehicles, I think your premise would have more credence. Also, I'm not arguing that content should be balanced for the 'elite'- I'd argue the opposite for stuff that is open mission or avail in public queues, but that's bit of a diff topic.
This issue is becoming more of one just due to the PB and AAM cost hikes. Casting 7+ heavy cannons before a reload isn't really that bad, and ya can still channel tractor beam or grav pulse for a long time, etc. Its just kinda all over the map now and I dun really know where CN is trying to go w/ it. Just circling back to the original point that reloading is starting to be more of an issue for Vehicles when it comes to balancing.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Still, vehicles should have to reload, it's part of their design. Just like energy building is. You can build for not having to build energy, and you can take quick reload and something to help build energy as well. I still fully stand by my point that "player characters don't reload" is a silly thing to say.
Yes, I know that energy tricks can be shoehorned into builds, but it becomes silly if you have any consideration for theme. I mean, I have a character that's just a big muscley brute. Super Strength is his only super power. But to be considered "okay" by what some people think is standard, this character needs to be able to reconstruct his body at the molecular level and lunge at his enemies that are already in his face, meanwhile throwing water balloons and snowballs at them while also giving them kissy-kisses with mistletoe so he doesn't have to throw a few energy-building punches at them?
*No, I don't know which devices trigger MSA. :biggrin:
(and most devices w/ a cd should trigger MSA, which is more of a weird quirk in the programming I'd assume.. but I'll take it
I guess it makes sense that tank vehicles have more energy issues than others, but I'd also argue the tank role for players has an unnecc energy penalty and that doesn't need to be copied as a limitation- since its not like hover tanks gain energy on hit or when using Dampening Field (the 'vehicle block', I've been told).
Perhaps, in CN's world, a move like the new PB is meant to be a dps move analogous to Force Cascade. I dunno, but if so then I'd expect *huge* damage per total cast, but also viable alternatives for setups that can't really afford it.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
I just want to respond to this, because it struck me as being way out of line with reality.
Here's the reality: I ran a vehicle with plasma beam (rank 2), and 2x rank 6 biosteel, and 2x rank 6 enemy hull scanner (cost reduction, which is why those are relevant). I had to reload. That felt about right - I could do a fair bit, but sustained combat forced me to "use my energy builder" equivalent.
After the biosteel nerf, those same 2x r6 biosteel provide literally negligible energy regeneration - they don't give me even one extra shot of plasma beam inbetween reloads. But I could still get... I forget the exact numbers, but something like three or four shots off, which was tolerable.
After the final plasma beam nerf? Two shots and I'm out of ammo; I could probably be toting 2x r9 biosteel and have to reload just as often. This is not fun.
So no, there was NEVER a time where you could "just slap a few Rank 4 McMods on" and get unlimited ammo. You needed at a minimum Rank 7 mods, in all four slots, devoted to ammo management, and you know what? That counts as "heavy investment" in my book.
Edit: Oh, and the above? That's for spamming just plasma beam. Want to fit in anything else, like a healing drone or anti-air missiles? You needed a lot more ammo regen than I had, that's for sure.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
At some point in the development, the idea of having mixed fights mainly because some people rejected vehicles has finally starting biting CN back and it will continue doing it no matter how much balancing they do. It is not much different from having PVE and PVP all together.
I would say that the solution is:
1) Normally vehicles will work as a device travel power but with no combat allowed, so you can use it for long distances. On damage the player should get out the vehicle automatically.
2) Instances with vehicles should be all time in vehicle. Like SC or LI no more character choosing not using vehicles on those instances
3) The rest of the instances should follow either the device travel power approach or even better no vehicle at all.
Instances like forum malvanum were vehicles made bearable its bad design should be tuned properly.
I never said you did - you may note that the statement I was objecting to wasn't anything about current PB cost, but the one where you defended the biosteel nerf by claiming that pre-nerf was easy-mode infinite energy.
I have about 100 alts, about 20 are at's.
about 10 have int,rec or end as a SS. and most of those are at's.
I use my talents to get int/rec/end
My utility gear has cost discount. usually once I get the energy unlock at about 24-25, it has no energy problems.
some of the at's are like that anyway. Mind has no energy problems, once it's unlock is available.
yes some require using the EB and some don't, it depends on what powers you use and how much energy they take and how they get it.
I have a ranged dps who can heal with overdrive and no Pre stat. she builds energy attacking and can then transfer it to others with Celestial conduit.
Maintains.
same as MSA, depends on what your aim is, what you use.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
There's definitely an air of blas
RIP Caine
Ah yes. My dumb muscle-bound brute also has to be super intelligent to bring them cooldown timers down to really squeeze the energy out of MSA.
And (I haven't used it in a while) doesn't it have a tech-ish look to it, similar to Reconstruction Circuits, or did they remove the effect when they made the auras? It wasn't the first "everyone needs to have this power" that I never took because the effects didn't look right.
@taco - Sorry if it seems that I'm hand-waving the issue. I do think the nerfs were hamfisted, and I agree 100% that there should be some kind of refund system (don't know if I've posted that or only said it in-channel). It makes perfect sense that if heroes get retcons when a power changes, so should a vehicle.
Honestly when I first saw that patch on PTS, I thought "No way is this going to stay like this. This'll go a few rounds of changes," especially since we weren't in the middle of some new content that plasma beam was overperforming in. Then after I heard the results of people testing it, I thought my hunch was confirmed. Boy was I surprised.
However. I am part of the "If it's over performing, expect it to be nerfed," crowd. I'm surprised that Two Gun Mojo has lasted, what, two years in its current incarnation? I fully expect it to be nerfed. Just like Boomerang Toss, or Throwing Blades, whichever it was. I've always rolled with the punches when it came to nerfs.
I'll still use vehicles when I can get them re-equipped (I blew most of my Questionite arming a bike for Mechanon...) and just like I expect over-performers to be nerfed, I expect under-performers to be fixed. I also think that guy who started selling off his weapons the day the patch went up on PTS was acting a bit too hasty (pretty sure we're talking about the same guy). There's been three changes to Plasma Beam in a very short time; I don't expect this time to be the last.
Everyone take note: This is exactly how you convey constructive criticism towards the matter at hand.
There was never a reason to gear more than one or two vehicles out. Having the exact same loadout on 10+ was excessive. You want to be cavalier with how you spend your money, fine. Coming to the boards, throwing around how you spent SO much money, and acting like a child over something so incredibly minor in the grand scheme of things does not make me care about your opinion or position.
Even after these nerfs, vehicles are still very powerful for what they are considering you need to invest far less into them then you would a powerful FF build.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
If you're saying that my reply to you was in any way "deriding constructive criticism", you're sadly mistaken. Nothing in your post was constructive; it was just a vindictive, sweeping attack of insults against anyone who ever had a legitimate view on imbalances in the game. Also I have stated previously that I'm not in support of the Plasma Beam nerf and suggested that some sort of compensation be carried out. Misdirected anger much?
Take a nap.
Your sarcasm is clearly OP. Something has to be done about it, but what?
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
Listen? Why yes, we did listen to your cries of doom and gloom. Problem is, some of us actually want balance, not endless power inflation.
Right now, balance means a buff to plasma beam; reducing its cost significantly should be good enough. Also, buffs to most other vehicle weapons. And mini-mines. And a small nerf to 2GM. And so on and so forth.
So if you could stop trying to spread doom and gloom in every thread where someone dares to ask for balance, I, personally, would appreciate it. Thanks!
Plasma Beam did need a nerf, just not a triple one.
Personal attacks against people expressing an opinion about how the game should be balanced might very well result in those who think that certain elements were out of balance losing any concern over the feelings of those who support the attacks. Its really hard to muster sympathy for people calling other players idiots, nerf-heads, calling for anyone who disagrees with them on matters of game balance to be banned, and so on.
Am I glad that people lost money on game elements that no longer serve the purpose for which they were purchased ? No. I have always supported the idea that if a cash shop item is nerfed heavily after being sold as working as intended refunds should be offered. I think that this particular aspect of Cryptic's treatment of its player base indicates very poor ethical standards on the part of those making the decisions.
I also note that Cryptic has a history of excessive balance swings. They seem to rarely make small incremental changes but rather sweeping massive modifications. This seems to be another example of that.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
The interesting thing is that they were - prior to this latest nerf - actually proceeding carefully a little bit at a time, avoiding over-nerfing. So people complained about getting nerfed multiple times, instead. Some people are never happy...
Must have missed that stage. The heavy handed over-nerf (and over-buff for that matter) approach goes back to launch. If something is a bit of an outlier it gets hit with a hammer until it is all but useless.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Well, compare to things like the dodge nerf, and the crit nerf, and all three prior plasma beam nerfs... Cryptic North has been doing pretty well up until now. Honestly, it kinda feels like someone pushed this patch to live by accident...
My take on the worst of the nerfs over the last five years is a knowledgeable and hardworking dev at his desk playing with the most recent iteration of a given balance adjustment when a suit walks by and asks, "you're still working on that ?!?!? You have any idea how over budget this patch is ?!?! Push it live. Now !!!"
Sigh, Mini-mines.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
If vehicles were better designed this wouldn't be a problem (either as travel powers, or as reskinnable devices) this wouldn't be a factor, but, well...
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Please stop talking about "knowing that the game WILL shut down." You don't know that and the only thing that comes out of statements like that is arguments.
@bluegrass, please dial it back a notch. I know you're angry, but insulting other players is not going to help you get your point across, and if it continues and derails the thread with further insults and it gets out of hand, I'll have to close it. Thanks.
I think that ATs could have been a fine addition by having them better built. If CO is going to have the equivalent of character classes then each should have been designed to be on par with a reasonably well built FF of the same theme. Make them something that even a subscriber might be interested in playing if he wants to have a solid character of the given theme without having to spend hours testing or reading build guides.
But water under the bridge and all.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Yes, the PB Nerf was pretty much 90% spot on the money. It was rushed, it needed more time, and it's cost is too high. That being said....cut the cost a touch and it performs pretty well in the grand scope of things.
Biosteel was fixed for the most part. It's not a huge deal overal since it's not, like some would believe, the "ONLY" way to build a vehicle.
People are still using vehicles and they're starting to look at other builds instead of X+Y+Z = The Only Win. I don't see people in zonechat anymore ONLY taking people for teams if they have PB. In the end, call it what you like, but I'm calling it 1 energy cost adjustment away from successful. Overall, I am FAR more concerned with the haste of the last PTS push than anything that really came from it and that's with Heavy Cannon getting a boost so it's actually being used ingame.
Overall, yes, this did take too many steps but there were unforseen consequences and 2 people who pretty much sabotaged Vehicles 2.0 from the beginning to end by flooding the original thread to where it was useless and actual data was buried. Honestly, if alot of the mistakes of 2.0 had been caught and handled properly before it went live then most of the opposition present in this thread wouldn't have a leg to stand on because it wouldn't have been OP so there wouldn't have been any nerfs for them to be angry about. Sheer wouldn't have gone live in the 1st place. The age old stacking bug wouldn't have shown up at the Mechanon OM. People wouldn't have yelled at each other in zonechat over it. Sheer wouldn't have needed to be killed. People would not have been angry about it. Heck, we might have even had more stuff in BM right now and people would be too busy going after it and not squabbling here over bait and switch conspiracy theories(of which I do not subscribe to just so we're clear on that).
Blue: You're an angry person. Take a few breaths and calm down a notch. Witch Hunts for people who do not share your opinions is not the solution. I, for example, do not share your opinions on the majority of topics but ya know what....that's ok. I do not see why you would want overpowered easy-mode things in the game where you can fall alseep at the keyboard rolling over anything in your path because that is not how I, personally, game(neither of us are alone in our opinions as evidenced in this thread though). The difference, though, is night and day on approach. There simply is no need for all this name calling and constant attempts to try to assign those who disagree with you in such a negative light. I do not go around shadowy corners twirling my mustache between my fingers and trying to bring about the death of this game with every action I take(we actually have someone for that job around here already who shall remain nameless). I suspect both of us wish to enjoy this game, neither of us wish for it's demise, and both want what they feel is best. I'm just not as negative about the whole thing.
Xan: Now you I'm going to give the rare benefit of the doubt about in order to explain a few things. The way I see it you're The King of The Bitter CoXers who has only reappeared on these forums to stoke the flames and anger of the recent patching in a quest for personal amusement and to see your own prophecy of the demise of this game, which has no right to even exist since your game of choice no longer exists, and dance upon it's grave while spiriting the few people(it's not the majority of the playerbase, they didn't all come from City, let's not even pretend either of us believe that) who knew better all along to the promised land of the return of your beloved game and thus making you a digital messiah and setting the Superhero MMO World back into perfect balance as one game rises from the ashes like a majestic phoenix and the vile horrid CO dies the death it so richly deserves.
So while this is a public forum and you are entitled to be here so long as you don't break any more rules in some kind of epic(hilarious) meltdown of near Biblical Proportions I just have to ask. If you're not here to "watch the world burn" as they say...what purpose DO you serve on these forums? Is it just to cause mayhem while you spread the word of your super top secret ulta important thing that nobody else could possibly know about to your legion of loyal followers? Is there more?
Honestly, in the end, people are angry now. CN will likely have to, I hope, do some additional very very minor adjustments on the energy cost of PB and take steps in the future to improve the PTS to Live Process. Then the majority of us can get back to where we were before all of this business...and some can find their next point of complaint. So things will pretty much go back to normal.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
How people spend their money is not my concern until it gets shoved in my face in a whiny rant. Being unhappy about the PB nerf is one thing, going insane in the forums and throwing around insults is another. Especially considering the changes aren't that bad. It's more a question of how people are reacting to the latest nerf, not that it happened.
We should all be so fortunate to have the worst thing happen to us be one of our toys breaking.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
-=-=-=-=-=-(CO in-game handle: @WarCan )-=-=-=-=-=-
"Okay, you're DEAD, what do you do NEXT?"