I think Cyrone's current Protogen build uses no dodge. he's using CON with PFF last I checked believe it or not, but it works well due to his STR primary.
The new (old?) protogen is a pretty badass brick tank. even does well in VIPER alerts. UGH. VIPER and PFF. the nightmares. :biggrin:
Did he share that build by any chance? I'd love to see it, but couldn't find a link or anything. At least, not in this thread.
I'm using a slightly modified version of what's posted there. These are my current specs, powers remain unchanged for the most part with a few advantages in different areas.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
why not juggernaut though? you doing the STR stacking thing now? Protogen the mighty knock monster will join knock monsters Nova and Vitality?
Not stacking Strength for knocks. Going for those crits.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Not going to lie. I give up. This new Alert further alienates PFF users as it seems to rely heavily on heals being tossed out. May as well run that Alert after having unslotted my Passive, would probably not change the outcome at all. You win Cryptic! I'm done fighting for fixes to my favorite power.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
I feel for you Cyrone. I'm not even close to the PFF advocate that you are and I finally gave up on it a couple weeks ago myself. My "TK Force"-themed character Psytro got to the early Level 30s and I just couldn't take the bug anymore. I used one of his respecs and rebuilt him using Mentalist powers and its passive (Ego something...). Also picked up those new DoT powers. They're pretty neat/fun, actually, and I was finally able to finish leveling him to 40. Yay.
Still, sad that Force/PFF is dead.
When XP earnings during a Double-XP Weekend still feel like I'm underperforming,
there's something terribly wrong with the reward system...
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Original Join Date: Feb 2010.
Not going to lie. I give up. This new Alert further alienates PFF users as it seems to rely heavily on heals being tossed out. May as well run that Alert after having unslotted my Passive, would probably not change the outcome at all. You win Cryptic! I'm done fighting for fixes to my favorite power.
Ya know, I always wondered w/ the buggy regen atm, maybe they should allow the regen rate to scale w/ healing taken (from you or other players inc)- even if healing itself doesn't replenish shield amounts. It'd at least allow healing to have more an effect on the shield, and you could build more freely around PFF, as you can w/ any other defense passive atm.
Prob be really hard to implement something like this- and in a fair way, though.
For those who were wondering. The PFF tank of mine that has tanked EVERYTHING in the game died in a matter of SECONDS during the Fire and Ice Alert. Working as intended.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
For those who were wondering. The PFF tank of mine that has tanked EVERYTHING in the game died in a matter of SECONDS during the Fire and Ice Alert. Working as intended.
Interestingly, there seems to be a new wave of HEALERS using PFF buffed with Compassion in Hybrid role. Their main reason for going that route is to gain a bigger margin of error in Rampages.
I suppose as one door closes, another opens. PFF does make a lot of sense for healers who don't expect to get hit often, but want a buffer against random one-shots, although it's not something I would use myself.
Interestingly, there seems to be a new wave of HEALERS using PFF buffed with Compassion in Hybrid role. Their main reason for going that route is to gain a bigger margin of error in Rampages.
I suppose as one door closes, another opens. PFF does make a lot of sense for healers who don't expect to get hit often, but want a buffer against random one-shots, although it's not something I would use myself.
It's likely due to the fact that Compassion inflates PFF's surface value (Shield numbers) to high values than anything else.
PFF unfortunately, through perhaps a fault by design has never provided users with any form of protection once the shield has dissipated. Nor does it have a layer of damage resistance/absorb for the shield layer itself against damage which is innate to the passive.
This of course means you rely on Unbreakable/IDF/Dodge/Masterful Dodge to be superior forms of damage resistance FOR you + your "Defensive" passive.
And since the bug with PFF seems to be a consistent one, as of yet there is no "cure". It's a crying shame, I am hoping that someday PFF can be an actual defensive passive without consistent functionality issues.
EDIT: For anyone reading these comments and is new to PFF, please note that PFF does not "make incoming healing irrelevant" by utilizing any form of blocking, as a PFF user will take damage to HP through the shield, which means heals will always heal your HP. Rather it as a shield cannot be "healed" by conventional means and relies on Shield Regeneration Rate, Blocking (to double shield regen rate) and Field Surge.
Perhaps it's a problem of expectations? I'm not sure that PFF was ever intended to be a sustained tanking passive. It does very well, better than other defensive passives, against sporadic burst damage. In the Gravitar alert, the players with the highest average resistance levels are the PFF users, who often resist 97-98% of all damage. I think it's a little unreasonable to expect awesome resistance against burst damage AND sustained tanking vs. Frosticus.
LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
Perhaps it's a problem of expectations? I'm not sure that PFF was ever intended to be a sustained tanking passive. It does very well, better than other defensive passives, against sporadic burst damage. In the Gravitar alert, the players with the highest average resistance levels are the PFF users, who often resist 97-98% of all damage. I think it's a little unreasonable to expect awesome resistance against burst damage AND sustained tanking vs. Frosticus.
No. PFF's concept is a force field, shell of energy, psychokinetic armour etc. And as a result it would only be fair to expect to be able to consistently utilize the shield/(whatever you want PFF to be imagined as) in order to provide self protection, not protection in short bursts then randomly bleed out on the sidewalk from "overwhelming damage".
The label "Defensive Passive" is given to passives which are intended to do just that. Defend. In a similar vein, Defensive Passives have been closely associated with tanking because they provide more than the usual amount of defense to the player, allowing them to survive longer in situations where others would likely have a hard time.
As it stands right now, Personal Force Field is technically classed as a Defensive Passive, so I should be able to sustain myself in combat, my focus should be keeping shields at a certain level 80%-100% (personally) so I can continue doing what I am doing.
I will admit that, yes. In Gravitar PFF allows my PFF toon ForceGirl to survive her yellow bubbles multiple times, provided I dodge, but since dodge is a chance based mechanic, I am not always going to dodge, and if I don't I take more damage than I can hope to survive.
PFF grants an absorption level of roughly 95% of damage, allowing 5% to bleed through to your HP. Once the shield is gone. It is gone. It is not coming back quick enough for you to sustain another hit, unless you hit Field Surge, and even then it may not be enough.
It is not unreasonable to expect a "Defensive Passive" to provide consistent defense and not to be a complete mess in some encounters like Fire and Ice.
It is not unreasonable to expect a passive which is meant to provide protection to you to not be a buggy mess of a passive.
Nor is it unreasonable to back changes to it which could allow the passive to have an ease of use without snapping the theme of the passive, namely being a force field.
All that is being asked (or rather has been asked) is that the passive get some attention and a reliable and valid fix, a fix in terms of buggy shield regeneration values per 3 sec in combat and either the addition of a button (similar to NW) which may help it's shield regeneration (which myself and others have repeatedly suggested on forums) or some form of damage resistance baked into the shield layer so the shield itself takes extra resisted values, since it provides no protection after it dissipates, at which time you would likely be exposed and bare. Hell a shield regen per 3 sec value fix would likely be enough.
Fire and Ice seems to be the only instance where there seems to be issues with PFF in terms of sustaining damage.
Fire and Ice alert is the only instance where my shield cannot take a sustained amount of damage. But, as I've stated a few posts back, I'm done fighting for this power as it seems to be "working as intended".
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
No. PFF's concept is a force field, shell of energy, psychokinetic armour etc. And as a result it would only be fair to expect to be able to consistently utilize the shield/(whatever you want PFF to be imagined as) in order to provide self protection, not protection in short bursts then randomly bleed out on the sidewalk from "overwhelming damage".
The label "Defensive Passive" is given to passives which are intended to do just that. Defend. In a similar vein, Defensive Passives have been closely associated with tanking because they provide more than the usual amount of defense to the player, allowing them to survive longer in situations where others would likely have a hard time.
As it stands right now, Personal Force Field is technically classed as a Defensive Passive, so I should be able to sustain myself in combat, my focus should be keeping shields at a certain level 80%-100% (personally) so I can continue doing what I am doing.
I will admit that, yes. In Gravitar PFF allows my PFF toon ForceGirl to survive her yellow bubbles multiple times, provided I dodge, but since dodge is a chance based mechanic, I am not always going to dodge, and if I don't I take more damage than I can hope to survive.
PFF grants an absorption level of roughly 95% of damage, allowing 5% to bleed through to your HP. Once the shield is gone. It is gone. It is not coming back quick enough for you to sustain another hit, unless you hit Field Surge, and even then it may not be enough.
It is not unreasonable to expect a "Defensive Passive" to provide consistent defense and not to be a complete mess in some encounters like Fire and Ice.
It is not unreasonable to expect a passive which is meant to provide protection to you to not be a buggy mess of a passive.
Nor is it unreasonable to back changes to it which could allow the passive to have an ease of use without snapping the theme of the passive, namely being a force field.
You're mostly arguing themes and concepts, which honestly don't have a lot to do with game mechanics. All of the defensive passives have their particular strengths and weaknesses. I'm not saying PFF couldn't use some tweaks, but expecting it to be excellent in all situations is unreasonable, IMHO.
LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
You're mostly arguing themes and concepts, which honestly don't have a lot to do with game mechanics. All of the defensive passives have their particular strengths and weaknesses. I'm not saying PFF couldn't use some tweaks, but expecting it to be excellent in all situations is unreasonable, IMHO.
I only mentioned concepts a few times in my reply, not mostly. However I will say they do mix when looking at powers. Taking into account both mechanics and concept can lead to a better understanding of how to deal with a power and what to expect.
It would be unreasonable for me to expect Fireball to deal Cold Damage, because as the name implies. It is fire.
In game mechanics allow me to run with Invuln and do well in all situations. I don't see why PFF cannot be like this in terms of consistency of usefulness.
VIPER as an organisation have weapons which can invert your passive (PFF) so you take the majority of damage to self and minor to PFF.
You could argue that self healing has got to do with it, but that argument was two years ago on a PTS thread about Personal Force Field Passive.
If for the sake of not wanting to lose the identity of the power as a force field (and generally healing cannot heal force fields), then make the power sturdier within reason, so that it is an accessible in all situations, like other Defensive Passives.
EDIT: Anyway, regardless of how much stuff is typed here, PFF is satisfactory for most content provided you block more than usual. I for one will continue to use it, cause I do purely for theme. It has the potential to be something better but right now, it'll stay dead. Similar to another mechanic I know... :rollseyes:
Field Surge needs to take a mechanic from Resurgence.
Resurgence is supposed to increase the regen rate of Regen to max, as if you'd taken a big hit. Field Surge should apply a "rapid shield regen" buff for 10 - 15 seconds. Something on the order of just under what BLOCKING does for it. So, even if another hit (or hits) take your shield down, as long as the buff exists, you get a higher than normal shield regen.
Force needs a FF repair power. Something like Reconstruction Circuits. Activate it and you get a shield regen going. Applies to any force-based shield. However, since you could potentially have 4(?) different force-based shields going, it should apply to them ONE AT A TIME, with perhaps PFF being given top priority.
And, I'm not saying PFF would be just fine with the above 2 suggestions, it still needs some of it's own tweaks. However, I think most would agree that a FF "heal" power, besides Field Surge, would be nice.
.
-=-=-=-=-=-(CO in-game handle: @WarCan )-=-=-=-=-=- "Okay, you're DEAD, what do you do NEXT?"
Field Surge needs to take a mechanic from Resurgence.
Resurgence is supposed to increase the regen rate of Regen to max, as if you'd taken a big hit. Field Surge should apply a "rapid shield regen" buff for 10 - 15 seconds. Something on the order of just under what BLOCKING does for it. So, even if another hit (or hits) take your shield down, as long as the buff exists, you get a higher than normal shield regen.
Force needs a FF repair power. Something like Reconstruction Circuits. Activate it and you get a shield regen going. Applies to any force-based shield. However, since you could potentially have 4(?) different force-based shields going, it should apply to them ONE AT A TIME, with perhaps PFF being given top priority.
And, I'm not saying PFF would be just fine with the above 2 suggestions, it still needs some of it's own tweaks. However, I think most would agree that a FF "heal" power, besides Field Surge, would be nice.
You've no idea how many times I requested this.
Instead of a reconstruction circuits though I repeatedly suggested that protection field restore personal force field for the shield amount and apply a debuff like bionic shielding
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Even though My character is a lowly level 30 Impulse AT I've found that remembering that using Protection Field and sometimes even Field Surge proactively helps tremendously with survivability.
That is using them when the PFF is full, this may sound stupid but those powers, along with the Energy refraction bubble, energy sheathe, and IDF all prevent damage to your PFF in the same way the PFF does for your health. preventing it from taking as much damage as it would without them. Layering of them is important to survivability.
Even though My character is a lowly level 30 Impulse AT I've found that remembering that using Protection Field and sometimes even Field Surge proactively helps tremendously with survivability.
That is using them when the PFF is full, this may sound stupid but those powers, along with the Energy refraction bubble, energy sheathe, and IDF all prevent damage to your PFF in the same way the PFF does for your health. preventing it from taking as much damage as it would without them. Layering of them is important to survivability.
Well aware of this but those shields take the raw damage so they are, in my opinion, rather pointless.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Interestingly, there seems to be a new wave of HEALERS using PFF buffed with Compassion in Hybrid role. Their main reason for going that route is to gain a bigger margin of error in Rampages.
I suppose as one door closes, another opens. PFF does make a lot of sense for healers who don't expect to get hit often, but want a buffer against random one-shots, although it's not something I would use myself.
Yeah, I'll stick to AoRP on my healers. PFF would trade off too much for the personal shield in that case.
I have avoided PFF for a long time as I never understood how to use it effectively. This thread has been invaluable. I would appreciate some advice on this new toon. He basically came about as a bad pun based on the new wrench unlock. Hence Monkey Wrench, a lost astronaut who returns to Earth smuggled aboard a Qularr ship (short version). His intelligence, size and strength have been augmented so he uses gadgets to fight crime...and a giant monkey wrench. This is what I have come up with. I couldn't determine from this thread if the phalanx defence system advantage boosts PFF regen, or merely adds a layer of protection over it. I suspect the latter, as otherwise it would be a no brainer and would have been mentioned before:
Looks like a fun build. Really like the theme behind it. Though, having Intelligence as a super star I would drop Nanos other Swarm for MSA as I didn't see an energy unlock. As for Phalanx Defense and every other advantage for blocks, it only bolsters the damage mitigation on the shield. No effect to the regen.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Looks like a fun build. Really like the theme behind it. Though, having Intelligence as a super star I would drop Nanos other Swarm for MSA as I didn't see an energy unlock. As for Phalanx Defense and every other advantage for blocks, it only bolsters the damage mitigation on the shield. No effect to the regen.
Excellent point about the unlock, don't know how I missed that. I thought that Phalanx defense wouldn't proc the extra shield regen, but i wish it did Thanks for your help .
If anyone needs further help in regards to this passive feel free to PM me here on the forums or post here in this thread. I browse the forums frequently but can't bring myself to play right now.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
I'd delete Serpentina right now and replace her with a PFF tank if they'd just fix the regen bug.
This. I've been waiting for pff to work properly so I can make one for a while now. Cyrone really got me interested in it, but I just can't bring myself to build one knowing it's bugged.
In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008. RIP Caine
Oh, Grav is easy with PFF. It's the mooks that give you trouble. Not sure about Frosty though, since I haven't done Fire 'n Ice yet.
Frosty one shots me on Protogen. Kenina gets me in a few hits. Absolutely ********.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Yeah, Frosticus is brutal. I think only my Defiance tank can take a hit from him, and even then he needs dedicated support backup to last. There are many situations that he'll do around like 20k points of raw damage.
The tidbit about Kenina taking the build down is a bit surprising, though. On a badly-organized team with only one tank, I managed to use Chisoku (Way of the Warrior martial artist, usually has around 40-50 dodge chance alongside high Constitution) and reliably take her attacks without any major incident. She's much weaker than Frosticus, but she does seem to have infrequent bouts where she'll just flip out with a surprisingly powerful AoE or something.
I dunno. If only I could get more F&I runs that didn't end with 7 pugs leaving after one death.
Yea, Kenina can be tanked by dps FFs- you just gotta block her 3-4 sec cast vengeance thingy (hits very hard in an AoE- no indicator other than the cast anim and the wind-up sound) and her fireball (which is properly telegraphed) and have enough heals to recover afterwards. Ya can also run out of her Conflag if ur ranged, I think.
Otherwise she has a large amount of time between her attacks to recover (part of the reason Frosticus is much more deadly- he just does not relent in comparison). I know PFF is weak now, but it shouldn't be unviable vs. Kenina if dps can also do it.
Well, I think we finally have a reasonable in game demonstration of the fact that PFF needs some form of built in damage mitigation on top of the shield. I mean, it's not that I expect every PFF tank to be able to Tank frosticus, but when a 100% dodge build like Protogen can't manage it then something is very wrong.
Also, the low shields regen penalty needs to go entirely. It serves no purpose except to make sure that a PFF that's at low shields never recovers.
____________________________________
That Dork In The Suspenders, signing out.
I had a 243% damage resist Defiance tank with Laser Knight plus about 50-60% damage debuffs still get torn to shreds without outside heals. The only reliable tank builds I have who can take him without outside heals are both 100% dodge builds. (But if they get Frost Spired I need to press Masterful Dodge right away AND hope to get freed ASAP.)
I tried my PFF on Kenina and you can survive if you block all of her charge-ups but she usually gets me with the untelegraphed AoE.
On Frosticus surviving with PFF usually means blocking until Masterful Dodge is up or I lose Agg LOL!
Well, I think we finally have a reasonable in game demonstration of the fact that PFF needs some form of built in damage mitigation on top of the shield. I mean, it's not that I expect every PFF tank to be able to Tank frosticus, but when a 100% dodge build like Protogen can't manage it then something is very wrong.
Also, the low shields regen penalty needs to go entirely. It serves no purpose except to make sure that a PFF that's at low shields never recovers.
I've been saying PFF needs damage mitigation to shield layer for longer than I care to state, it seems others are finally picking up on the idea or rather realising, lol.
Ideas which I've thrown around are:
- Damage Absorb which is a set percentage on the shields, meaning this percentage of damage is totally ignored/non existent.
- Damage Resistance value which would act as a resist all value (Similar to what Ego Form and ID Mastery have baked in, but would likely be higher as it is a defensive passive) which would be either static or start off high and lower to a point as shield value goes down. (Or start low and build up to a point)
- Variable Dodge % which increases in combat to reduce the damage your shield takes (scaling in a way similar to the previous idea of damage resistances)
- PFF Button - This idea basically adds a button to PFF (AT NO EXTRA COST, like Night Warrior Passive), which somehow helps with keeping PFF up and in the green in combat. This could either be by making this button do a variety of things:
1 - "Focused Force" - Toggle ability which greatly increases shield regen per 3 sec (via increasing the value or decreasing time period between shield regens) as a trade off your damage output is reduced by a % as this toggle is active and increases your energy costs.
2 - "Reverberating Force" - Click Ability which converts a percentage of your outgoing damage into shield number (e.g. a 1k Force Blast would add 400/450 shield points to your PFF) and this would apply to all your attacks for the duration of the buff. Which would have a CD ofc.
3 - "Field Burst" - Tap ability which hits your foes in an AoE around you, the amount of foes hit increases the amount of shield value you get back (e.g. 400 could be the base shield regen number. Hitting 5 foes with Field Burst would = 2k added to shield)
^ All of those would be baked into PFF and would NOT be advantages in any way shape or form. (Of course I am not suggesting adding ALL of these into PFF, one of them would be quite enough.)
Protogen ditched dodge and focused on defense, I've seen it in action and it works relatively well from what I've seen, but he is more might based so when used in combination it's pretty impressive.
I for one still use dodge but I've backed it up with defense. This seems to work relatively well including against SL VIPER units as well. If anything I just have to worry more about my actual HP levels and attacking than anything else.
The thing about the low shields penalty is...add that to the in combat bug we now have and have had for close to if not over a year now, that is pathetic.
Without blocking PFF is ridiculously easy to remove and we all know this, well, we as in those who actually use the power.
As for Kenina and Frosticious, I've found that they have side attacks which randomly strike out (Ice Dagger and something else from Kenina) which are stupidly powerful and difficult to recover from if someone doesn't take the aggro and you haven't prepared your shields for the impact.
you sure? since the dodge nerf the maximum I've ever got on a non dodge passive character is 60-70% at any one time.
before the dodge nerf was another story.
Well, I achieved 154.1% dodge rate constantly with WoTW + Gear Gear is Heroic Agility with a rank 7 Gamblers core for dodge. Adding both WoTW and the Heroic Agility together giving me ~36% dodge)
Based on the assumption that WoTW + Gear granted me 36%, it'd be possible to get 118.1% dodge from those stacking alone.
Gear alone can grant 26% dodge IIRC, moreso if you use above rank 7s, so adding that 26% to the combination should grant 144.1% dodge.
(My values may be a little off, I'll go check now)
Comments
Did he share that build by any chance? I'd love to see it, but couldn't find a link or anything. At least, not in this thread.
Specializations:
Strength: Physical Peak (3/3)
Strength: Aggression (2/2)
Strength: Brutality (2/2)
Strength: Overpower (3/3)
Guardian: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Guardian: Locus (2/2)
Guardian: Ruthless (2/2)
Guardian: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (2/3)
Vindicator: Modified Gear (1/2)
Vindicator: Mass Destruction (2/3)
Mastery: Strength Mastery (1/1)
And yes, he no longer dodges.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Not stacking Strength for knocks. Going for those crits.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
I really want to like PFF.
(I really want to like Medical Nanites too, but that seems even more hopeless.)
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Still, sad that Force/PFF is dead.
When XP earnings during a Double-XP Weekend still feel like I'm underperforming,
there's something terribly wrong with the reward system...
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Original Join Date: Feb 2010.
Ya know, I always wondered w/ the buggy regen atm, maybe they should allow the regen rate to scale w/ healing taken (from you or other players inc)- even if healing itself doesn't replenish shield amounts. It'd at least allow healing to have more an effect on the shield, and you could build more freely around PFF, as you can w/ any other defense passive atm.
Prob be really hard to implement something like this- and in a fair way, though.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Interestingly, there seems to be a new wave of HEALERS using PFF buffed with Compassion in Hybrid role. Their main reason for going that route is to gain a bigger margin of error in Rampages.
I suppose as one door closes, another opens. PFF does make a lot of sense for healers who don't expect to get hit often, but want a buffer against random one-shots, although it's not something I would use myself.
It's likely due to the fact that Compassion inflates PFF's surface value (Shield numbers) to high values than anything else.
PFF unfortunately, through perhaps a fault by design has never provided users with any form of protection once the shield has dissipated. Nor does it have a layer of damage resistance/absorb for the shield layer itself against damage which is innate to the passive.
This of course means you rely on Unbreakable/IDF/Dodge/Masterful Dodge to be superior forms of damage resistance FOR you + your "Defensive" passive.
And since the bug with PFF seems to be a consistent one, as of yet there is no "cure". It's a crying shame, I am hoping that someday PFF can be an actual defensive passive without consistent functionality issues.
EDIT: For anyone reading these comments and is new to PFF, please note that PFF does not "make incoming healing irrelevant" by utilizing any form of blocking, as a PFF user will take damage to HP through the shield, which means heals will always heal your HP. Rather it as a shield cannot be "healed" by conventional means and relies on Shield Regeneration Rate, Blocking (to double shield regen rate) and Field Surge.
My Characters on PRIMUS
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__________________________
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
No. PFF's concept is a force field, shell of energy, psychokinetic armour etc. And as a result it would only be fair to expect to be able to consistently utilize the shield/(whatever you want PFF to be imagined as) in order to provide self protection, not protection in short bursts then randomly bleed out on the sidewalk from "overwhelming damage".
The label "Defensive Passive" is given to passives which are intended to do just that. Defend. In a similar vein, Defensive Passives have been closely associated with tanking because they provide more than the usual amount of defense to the player, allowing them to survive longer in situations where others would likely have a hard time.
As it stands right now, Personal Force Field is technically classed as a Defensive Passive, so I should be able to sustain myself in combat, my focus should be keeping shields at a certain level 80%-100% (personally) so I can continue doing what I am doing.
I will admit that, yes. In Gravitar PFF allows my PFF toon ForceGirl to survive her yellow bubbles multiple times, provided I dodge, but since dodge is a chance based mechanic, I am not always going to dodge, and if I don't I take more damage than I can hope to survive.
PFF grants an absorption level of roughly 95% of damage, allowing 5% to bleed through to your HP. Once the shield is gone. It is gone. It is not coming back quick enough for you to sustain another hit, unless you hit Field Surge, and even then it may not be enough.
It is not unreasonable to expect a "Defensive Passive" to provide consistent defense and not to be a complete mess in some encounters like Fire and Ice.
It is not unreasonable to expect a passive which is meant to provide protection to you to not be a buggy mess of a passive.
Nor is it unreasonable to back changes to it which could allow the passive to have an ease of use without snapping the theme of the passive, namely being a force field.
All that is being asked (or rather has been asked) is that the passive get some attention and a reliable and valid fix, a fix in terms of buggy shield regeneration values per 3 sec in combat and either the addition of a button (similar to NW) which may help it's shield regeneration (which myself and others have repeatedly suggested on forums) or some form of damage resistance baked into the shield layer so the shield itself takes extra resisted values, since it provides no protection after it dissipates, at which time you would likely be exposed and bare. Hell a shield regen per 3 sec value fix would likely be enough.
Fire and Ice seems to be the only instance where there seems to be issues with PFF in terms of sustaining damage.
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"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
You're mostly arguing themes and concepts, which honestly don't have a lot to do with game mechanics. All of the defensive passives have their particular strengths and weaknesses. I'm not saying PFF couldn't use some tweaks, but expecting it to be excellent in all situations is unreasonable, IMHO.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
I only mentioned concepts a few times in my reply, not mostly. However I will say they do mix when looking at powers. Taking into account both mechanics and concept can lead to a better understanding of how to deal with a power and what to expect.
It would be unreasonable for me to expect Fireball to deal Cold Damage, because as the name implies. It is fire.
In game mechanics allow me to run with Invuln and do well in all situations. I don't see why PFF cannot be like this in terms of consistency of usefulness.
VIPER as an organisation have weapons which can invert your passive (PFF) so you take the majority of damage to self and minor to PFF.
You could argue that self healing has got to do with it, but that argument was two years ago on a PTS thread about Personal Force Field Passive.
If for the sake of not wanting to lose the identity of the power as a force field (and generally healing cannot heal force fields), then make the power sturdier within reason, so that it is an accessible in all situations, like other Defensive Passives.
EDIT: Anyway, regardless of how much stuff is typed here, PFF is satisfactory for most content provided you block more than usual. I for one will continue to use it, cause I do purely for theme. It has the potential to be something better but right now, it'll stay dead. Similar to another mechanic I know... :rollseyes:
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Resurgence is supposed to increase the regen rate of Regen to max, as if you'd taken a big hit. Field Surge should apply a "rapid shield regen" buff for 10 - 15 seconds. Something on the order of just under what BLOCKING does for it. So, even if another hit (or hits) take your shield down, as long as the buff exists, you get a higher than normal shield regen.
Force needs a FF repair power. Something like Reconstruction Circuits. Activate it and you get a shield regen going. Applies to any force-based shield. However, since you could potentially have 4(?) different force-based shields going, it should apply to them ONE AT A TIME, with perhaps PFF being given top priority.
And, I'm not saying PFF would be just fine with the above 2 suggestions, it still needs some of it's own tweaks. However, I think most would agree that a FF "heal" power, besides Field Surge, would be nice.
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You've no idea how many times I requested this.
Instead of a reconstruction circuits though I repeatedly suggested that protection field restore personal force field for the shield amount and apply a debuff like bionic shielding
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
That is using them when the PFF is full, this may sound stupid but those powers, along with the Energy refraction bubble, energy sheathe, and IDF all prevent damage to your PFF in the same way the PFF does for your health. preventing it from taking as much damage as it would without them. Layering of them is important to survivability.
Well aware of this but those shields take the raw damage so they are, in my opinion, rather pointless.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Yeah, I'll stick to AoRP on my healers. PFF would trade off too much for the personal shield in that case.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
PowerHouse (Link to this build)
Name: Monkey Wrench
Archetype: Freeform
Super Stats:
Level 6: Endurance (Primary)
Level 10: Intelligence (Secondary)
Level 15: Strength (Secondary)
Talents:
Level 1: The Invincible
Level 6: Investigator
Level 9: Bodybuilder
Level 12: Body and Mind
Level 15: Discipline Training
Level 18: Boundless Reserves
Level 21: Healthy Mind
Powers:
Level 1: Bludgeon
Level 1: Experimental Blaster (Rank 2, Rank 3, Death Ray)
Level 6: Experimental Burst Ray (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 8: Personal Force Field (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Brute Strike (Concussion)
Level 14: Energy Shield (Phalanx Defense System)
Level 17: Field Surge (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 20: Orbital Cannon (Rank 2, Anvil of Dawn)
Level 23: Bionic Shielding (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 26: Masterful Dodge
Level 29: Nanobot Swarm
Level 32: Concentration
Level 35: Energy Wave (Hardened Particle Matrix)
Level 38: Miniaturization Drive (Reciprocating Gizmo)
Travel Powers:
Level 6: Jet Boots (Rank 2)
Level 35: Athletics
Specializations:
Endurance: Readiness (3/3)
Endurance: Gear Utilization (2/3)
Endurance: Power Overwhelming (3/3)
Endurance: Hardened (2/2)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (2/3)
Vindicator: Modified Gear (1/2)
Vindicator: Mass Destruction (2/3)
Guardian: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Guardian: Locus (2/2)
Guardian: Ruthless (2/2)
Guardian: The Best Defense (3/3)
Mastery: Endurance Mastery (1/1)
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Excellent point about the unlock, don't know how I missed that. I thought that Phalanx defense wouldn't proc the extra shield regen, but i wish it did
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
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This. I've been waiting for pff to work properly so I can make one for a while now. Cyrone really got me interested in it, but I just can't bring myself to build one knowing it's bugged.
RIP Caine
Oh, Grav is easy with PFF. It's the mooks that give you trouble. Not sure about Frosty though, since I haven't done Fire 'n Ice yet.
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Frosty one shots me on Protogen. Kenina gets me in a few hits. Absolutely ********.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
He one shots Protogen?! EEP!
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The tidbit about Kenina taking the build down is a bit surprising, though. On a badly-organized team with only one tank, I managed to use Chisoku (Way of the Warrior martial artist, usually has around 40-50 dodge chance alongside high Constitution) and reliably take her attacks without any major incident. She's much weaker than Frosticus, but she does seem to have infrequent bouts where she'll just flip out with a surprisingly powerful AoE or something.
I dunno. If only I could get more F&I runs that didn't end with 7 pugs leaving after one death.
Otherwise she has a large amount of time between her attacks to recover (part of the reason Frosticus is much more deadly- he just does not relent in comparison). I know PFF is weak now, but it shouldn't be unviable vs. Kenina if dps can also do it.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Also, the low shields regen penalty needs to go entirely. It serves no purpose except to make sure that a PFF that's at low shields never recovers.
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I had a 243% damage resist Defiance tank with Laser Knight plus about 50-60% damage debuffs still get torn to shreds without outside heals. The only reliable tank builds I have who can take him without outside heals are both 100% dodge builds. (But if they get Frost Spired I need to press Masterful Dodge right away AND hope to get freed ASAP.)
I tried my PFF on Kenina and you can survive if you block all of her charge-ups but she usually gets me with the untelegraphed AoE.
On Frosticus surviving with PFF usually means blocking until Masterful Dodge is up or I lose Agg LOL!
I've been saying PFF needs damage mitigation to shield layer for longer than I care to state, it seems others are finally picking up on the idea or rather realising, lol.
Ideas which I've thrown around are:
- Damage Absorb which is a set percentage on the shields, meaning this percentage of damage is totally ignored/non existent.
- Damage Resistance value which would act as a resist all value (Similar to what Ego Form and ID Mastery have baked in, but would likely be higher as it is a defensive passive) which would be either static or start off high and lower to a point as shield value goes down. (Or start low and build up to a point)
- Variable Dodge % which increases in combat to reduce the damage your shield takes (scaling in a way similar to the previous idea of damage resistances)
- PFF Button - This idea basically adds a button to PFF (AT NO EXTRA COST, like Night Warrior Passive), which somehow helps with keeping PFF up and in the green in combat. This could either be by making this button do a variety of things:
1 - "Focused Force" - Toggle ability which greatly increases shield regen per 3 sec (via increasing the value or decreasing time period between shield regens) as a trade off your damage output is reduced by a % as this toggle is active and increases your energy costs.
2 - "Reverberating Force" - Click Ability which converts a percentage of your outgoing damage into shield number (e.g. a 1k Force Blast would add 400/450 shield points to your PFF) and this would apply to all your attacks for the duration of the buff. Which would have a CD ofc.
3 - "Field Burst" - Tap ability which hits your foes in an AoE around you, the amount of foes hit increases the amount of shield value you get back (e.g. 400 could be the base shield regen number. Hitting 5 foes with Field Burst would = 2k added to shield)
^ All of those would be baked into PFF and would NOT be advantages in any way shape or form. (Of course I am not suggesting adding ALL of these into PFF, one of them would be quite enough.)
Protogen ditched dodge and focused on defense, I've seen it in action and it works relatively well from what I've seen, but he is more might based so when used in combination it's pretty impressive.
I for one still use dodge but I've backed it up with defense. This seems to work relatively well including against SL VIPER units as well. If anything I just have to worry more about my actual HP levels and attacking than anything else.
The thing about the low shields penalty is...add that to the in combat bug we now have and have had for close to if not over a year now, that is pathetic.
Without blocking PFF is ridiculously easy to remove and we all know this, well, we as in those who actually use the power.
As for Kenina and Frosticious, I've found that they have side attacks which randomly strike out (Ice Dagger and something else from Kenina) which are stupidly powerful and difficult to recover from if someone doesn't take the aggro and you haven't prepared your shields for the impact.
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Try making an MA PFF build. Take Thundering Kicks Rank 2 with Floating Lotus Blossom Advantage and get Agility Legions/Heroic/Justice.
You should be able to achieve 100% and more dodge, but as for keeping it up consistently...that'd be another issue.
I reckon it's possible if you went FoTT and STR/DEX/CON or something and grabbed an attack like Dragon Kick for Rush buffs.
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Well, I achieved 154.1% dodge rate constantly with WoTW + Gear Gear is Heroic Agility with a rank 7 Gamblers core for dodge. Adding both WoTW and the Heroic Agility together giving me ~36% dodge)
Based on the assumption that WoTW + Gear granted me 36%, it'd be possible to get 118.1% dodge from those stacking alone.
Gear alone can grant 26% dodge IIRC, moreso if you use above rank 7s, so adding that 26% to the combination should grant 144.1% dodge.
(My values may be a little off, I'll go check now)
EDIT: My values were off a bit.
Heroic Agility + 143 Dodge chance from Rank 7 Gamblers Gem alone = 19.1% dodge chance
WoTW grants 20% Dodge chance
Overall = 39.1% dodge chance
With 20 stacks (max) of Floating Lotus Blossom + Rank 2 Thundering Kicks = 154.1% dodge chance.
Excluding 20% from WoTW = 134.1% dodge from the aforementioned combo of attack and gear.
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