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FC.31.20130824.13 PTS Update

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  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    falchoin wrote: »
    Maybe even apply that 553 bonus hp to all the Justice primary defense items.

    Are there any justice primary defense items, I didn't see one?
  • flamingbunnymanflamingbunnyman Posts: 1,995 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Speaking of primaries, doesn't Quick Reflexes from Dex need to be adjusted anyways? Last time I checked, I couldn't even get 1% of dodge per point with it.

    Are you talking about a character with no Dodge Rating other than QR, or are you stacking QR on top of a bunch of Dodge Rating from other sources (like gear)?

    If QR isn't even giving 3% dodge to someone with no other sources of Dodge Rating, then yes, it needs tweaking. If you're stacking it on top of a bunch of other stuff, it's possibly OK as-is.
    _________________________________________________
    @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
  • joybuzzerxjoybuzzerx Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Are you talking about a character with no Dodge Rating other than QR, or are you stacking QR on top of a bunch of Dodge Rating from other sources (like gear)?

    If QR isn't even giving 3% dodge to someone with no other sources of Dodge Rating, then yes, it needs tweaking. If you're stacking it on top of a bunch of other stuff, it's possibly OK as-is.

    I'll have to disagree. Using it on test with a Quarry build, all mods R7-8, and I got less than 1% Dodge Chance from it.

    Would be better if it actually gave some noticable dodge (read: better than less than 1%), no matter what passive you're using.
  • joybuzzerxjoybuzzerx Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    ayonachan wrote: »
    Critstrike Scaling
    Live% |Critstrike| PTS%
    0.13% "Base" 3.8%
    3.9% 47 13.4%
    11.2% 95 19%
    12.7% 103 19.9%
    27% 198 26.4%
    32.2% 245 28.7%
    36.8% 302 30.8%
    39.6% 349 32.3%
    Note: Base and all numbers have 10 Dexterity.

    Dexterity Scaling
    Live%|Dexterity|PTS%
    0.03% 5 2.2%
    4.6% 63 14.1%
    13.8% 120 20.5%
    24.8% 191 25.5%
    31.6% 249 28.4%
    38% 329 31.4%
    43.8% 461 34.9%


    Dexterity+Critical Strike Scaling
    Live%|Dexterity+CritStrike|PTS%
    34% 72+204 29.5%
    38.5% 134+204 31.7%
    43.5% 249+204 34.7%
    46.2% 461+103 36.8%
    47.7% 461+204 38.2%


    Edit: Only one instance of Penetration Core will take effect. Only one instance of Left Eye of the Ruby Dragon will take effect. Only one instance of Right Eye of the Sapphire Dragon will take effect. All of these require re-equipping of gear in order to work properly. Both eyes are multiplicative and on the same layer as [the current pts] Offense and our only multiplicative form.

    Look this over, it would seem to me (and I could easily be wrong), it looks like shoot for 34% Crit, then move on to other areas of offense or defense.
  • flamingbunnymanflamingbunnyman Posts: 1,995 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Quarry has nothing to do with what I was talking about. Quarry gives Dodge Chance, not Dodge Rating.

    I just did some tests as well. On a character with no powers other than an Energy Builder and AoPM (so I could push Dex as High as possible):

    No gear: Dex 178, QR grants 27 Dodge Rating, Final Dodge: 12% (+2%)
    Heroic Gear slotted for max Dex: Dex 737, QR grants 111 Dodge Rating, Final Dodge 23.5% (10% base, +8.7% from gear, +4.8% from QR)

    The reason you're seeing such small returns is likely because of your gear. Try pulling those super high rank Dodge mods out, and you'll probably see it drop by 1-2%. Remember, it's based on TOTAL rating from all sources; each individual rating isn't calculated separately. (Edit: Nope, I was wrong)

    Edit: Another test:

    Quarry, no gear, no specs, no superstats: 22% dodge.
    Quarry, same gear as above, no specs, no SS: 30.3% dodge.
    Quarry, no gear, no specs, Dex superstats: 22% dodge.
    Quarry, same gear, no specs, Dex superstats: 30.3%.
    Quarry, no gear, R3 QR, Dex superstat: 23% dodge. (+1% from 85 Dex)
    Quarry, same gear, R3 QR, Dex superstat: 31% dodge. (+0.7% from 614 Dex)

    The same test with Lightning Reflexes shows exactly the same results as Quarry received.

    BUG: There is apparently something wrong with the interaction between flat Dodge Chance and Dodge Rating.
    _________________________________________________
    @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
  • sakuratamakisakuratamaki Posts: 59 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Except that i feel slightly gipped to get only 1% dodge from the dex spec tree, compared to the other spec trees that give out something defensives like a large amount of defence from the Str/Ego/Pre or health from End/Str (and sometimes Int as well if your secondary SS is con)
  • flamingbunnymanflamingbunnyman Posts: 1,995 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Well, as I mentioned above, the Dex tree is giving closer to 5% if you aren't using a Dodge granting Passive. I really think that this is a bug.
    _________________________________________________
    @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
  • frankendreadzfrankendreadz Posts: 75 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    a simple suggestion (I Hope)
    As you now have a slider for wings and tails, how about one for each arm, hand?
    Also I kinda like the idea of applying the wing slider to become a universal back slider. that means no need to seperate the sliders for each wing type. the players can then decide if it looks fitting or not.
    Just my 2 cents
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  • flamingbunnymanflamingbunnyman Posts: 1,995 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    gradii wrote: »
    how about making quick reflexes from dex tree grant flat dodge chance like they did with the other stuff?

    I'd thought about suggesting that, but what would you set it at?

    0.1 (which is a fairly common scaling) would make 400 Dex give 40% Dodge, which IMO, is too high.

    0.25 would make that same 400 Dex give 10%, which is OK, but 100 Dex would only give 2.5%. 50 Dex would give just over 1%.

    That's important because if it's a flat Dodge chance, that applies the same to all levels - a lowbie will see virtually no return out of that one point (one third the above values) at 40 Dex. With Rating, the amount you get is based on how close you are to a certain target number; a lowbie with 100 Dex might see a very similar value to a 40 with 400 Dex, because each level has a different target number.

    In other words, it's a good idea, but way harder to balance for all levels.
    _________________________________________________
    @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
  • joybuzzerxjoybuzzerx Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I'd thought about suggesting that, but what would you set it at?

    0.1 (which is a fairly common scaling) would make 400 Dex give 40% Dodge, which IMO, is too high.

    0.25 would make that same 400 Dex give 10%, which is OK, but 100 Dex would only give 2.5%. 50 Dex would give just over 1%.

    That's important because if it's a flat Dodge chance, that applies the same to all levels - a lowbie will see virtually no return out of that one point (one third the above values) at 40 Dex. With Rating, the amount you get is based on how close you are to a certain target number; a lowbie with 100 Dex might see a very similar value to a 40 with 400 Dex, because each level has a different target number.

    In other words, it's a good idea, but way harder to balance for all levels.

    I could be wrong, but I was thinking Gradii meant, have Quick Reflexes grant a flat 2/4/6% (picked numbers) and not base it off DEX stat.

    Though, using your idea, couldn't they do something close to what you're suggesting another way? Like they do with EGO and STR damage bonuses?

    Just picking numbers here btw...

    .1 Dodge for the first 100 DEX, and .025 for every point of DEX over 100? Low levels would see a 10% Dodge at 100 DEX and then at 400 DEX that would be (if my math is correct) 17.5% Dodge.
  • flamingbunnymanflamingbunnyman Posts: 1,995 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    joybuzzerx wrote: »
    I could be wrong, but I was thinking Gradii meant, have Quick Reflexes grant a flat 2/4/6% (picked numbers) and not base it off DEX stat.

    I didn't think of it that way, but yes, that sounds pretty good to me. Easy to change, and no bizarre balance issues when stats are pushed unusually high. I'd probably go with 3/6/9%, but that's just me.
    Though, using your idea, couldn't they do something close to what you're suggesting another way? Like they do with EGO and STR damage bonuses?

    Just picking numbers here btw...

    .1 Dodge for the first 100 DEX, and .025 for every point of DEX over 100? Low levels would see a 10% Dodge at 100 DEX and then at 400 DEX that would be (if my math is correct) 17.5% Dodge.

    I don't know if Specs can be set up that way; as far as I know none we currently have access to work that way. It may require adding new code in order to be able to work that way, and adding new code for a simple effect isn't always as simple as it seems.

    I think your first comment is probably the easier and better one.
    _________________________________________________
    @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
  • joybuzzerxjoybuzzerx Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I didn't think of it that way, but yes, that sounds pretty good to me. Easy to change, and no bizarre balance issues when stats are pushed unusually high. I'd probably go with 3/6/9%, but that's just me.

    Personally, I'd like to see something similar to Evasion. Basically, a reason to take these specs, even if one is already high in those areas. At the same time, I'd hate to see the spec trees lose reasons to max the super stats.

    So the idea of flat rate increases, but giving returns such as .025 per point (or something like .020 or .033...whatever) doesn't seem bad either, but they'd likely need to figure out the best spot to put them to give a reason to actually take them, without allowing some builds to go overboard. Balancing issues I'm sure.
  • blademaster5121blademaster5121 Posts: 956 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Quick Reflexes should grant dodge at the same level Con's spec (Reflection?) grants dodge.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 7,153 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Flat percentages seem to be the way to go instead of dodge rating from what I am seeing.

    If Gambler's Gems were to grant flat %, Could it be made so that they would not outshine dodge passives but still retain their value?
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  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 7,153 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    gradii wrote: »
    only problem I can think of is ego dex builds using it to get 80% crit chance xD

    IMO 60% crit chance is ok if you build around it, but 80%?

    and yes I am aware of the 100% crit chance ego blade builds and I think that's fine, since only ego weaponry will benefit from the full 100% anyway.

    Eww, 80% crit chance.

    I think 60% base/resting crit chance is way too high.

    I even think my Psion The Psinister's 52% chance is abnormally high, I for one welcome the crit chance/severity (if Sev has been touched) change. That is because I seem to gain chance across the board with my crit geared toons loosing 9% at worst.

    I was referring to the dodge portion of the gems. Since ratings are a little low to say the least, I was merely wondering if Dodge Rating from Gems could be changed to a flat % so they would still have relative value in comparison to what they currently are on LIVE.
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  • falchoinfalchoin Posts: 363 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    ...I was referring to the dodge portion of the gems. Since ratings are a little low to say the least, I was merely wondering if Dodge Rating from Gems could be changed to a flat % so they would still have relative value in comparison to what they currently are on LIVE.

    I would rather a small shift to increase the effectiveness of dodge rating from the current PTS values. Otherwise there would be almost nothing left using dodge rating (specs) and what would be available would be mostly useless.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • jamesbonnelljamesbonnell Posts: 171 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Yeah. I pondered a flat increase for dodge from Gambler's gems a few pages ago. ;)

    As a complete wild guesstimate, 2% per rank might work.

    Sure, for Legion / Justice gear, that's a possible 18% x 2 (+36%) if people have R9s.

    For Legion/Justice gear, with R5s alone, that might be +20% dodge.

    Personally, though, I expect that most 40s have Heroic gear, and maybe R4s / R5s. Those are easy enough to come by through playing alone. Or maybe that's just me...

    Disclaimer: I have neither R8s nor R9s, and only a handful of R7s from lockboxes.
  • joybuzzerxjoybuzzerx Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Yeah. I pondered a flat increase for dodge from Gambler's gems a few pages ago. ;)

    As a complete wild guesstimate, 2% per rank might work.

    Sure, for Legion / Justice gear, that's a possible 18% x 2 (+36%) if people have R9s.

    For Legion/Justice gear, with R5s alone, that might be +20% dodge.

    Personally, though, I expect that most 40s have Heroic gear, and maybe R4s / R5s. Those are easy enough to come by through playing alone. Or maybe that's just me...

    Disclaimer: I have neither R8s nor R9s, and only a handful of R7s from lockboxes.

    I thought of that too, but then thought...that'll give LR +36% Dodge.
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  • joybuzzerxjoybuzzerx Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    gradii wrote: »
    LR is too iffy. why not let it achieve 100% dodge? or at least 90%?

    Wouldn't 100% dodge chance mean always avoid however much one can avoid?
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  • joybuzzerxjoybuzzerx Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    gradii wrote: »
    it would. but do one of 2 things: lower the avoid from LR to about 60% at 40 with basic gear, and have the passive grant 100% dodge at rank 3.

    OR

    somehow implement a way for LR to reach 100% dodge with full avoid but ONLY if you fully invest in dodge specs and take at least 2 rank 5 gambler gems

    I'd rather see a limit of how high one's chance to dodge can be, with a way to get 100% avoid, so one can feel like they're actually dodging. At least with LR.
  • fudgemonstafudgemonsta Posts: 1,532 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    ...gradii, please read over what you just wrote. Focus on the numbers, if you could please.
    @HangingDeath

    Deliciously nutritious!
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  • joybuzzerxjoybuzzerx Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    gradii wrote: »
    also a good idea, but if the dodge chance doesnt stay at above 50% it doesn't feel like lightning reflexes.

    I agree. I'd even say it needs to be better than 50%. I'm thinking maybe a dodge chance cap of 90-95% with the ability to obtain 100% avoid. Of course, one should have to work for both.
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  • sinistro1978sinistro1978 Posts: 280 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    gradii wrote: »
    LR is too iffy. why not let it achieve 100% dodge? or at least 90%?

    Actually I think LR is sitting pretty right now. With the right gear and mods you can roughly hit 75% dodge and 80% avoidance with just LR alone. For an AT, that's really nothing to scoff at. As for free form, all you need is Evasive Maneuvers rank 2 and Parry w/ Elusive Monk to hit 100% dodge.

    Although I hate the fact Quarry's nerf came a year too late, I can honestly say that my losses are minimal. With the new LR I have the same dodge percentage that I did with old Quarry, my avoidance is 10% higher, and all I really lost was 1k with a Dragon's Claw crit (with SS Dex build). I can't complain.

    Anyways, is it true that SS Ego & Str outperforms Dex in crit chance? I haven't really experimented with SS Str or Ego since these changes. If that is the case, then something needs to be done with SS Dex's Combat Training. There is absolutely no reason why Str>Dex with crit chance, especially when you consider how much SS Str has going for it.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • eatmoreseatmores Posts: 23 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    gradii wrote: »
    LR is too iffy. why not let it achieve 100% dodge? or at least 90%?

    100% dodge is not dodge anymore, it's defense. You should never be able to reach 100% dodge except for very short bursts (Masterful Dodge). Dodge is all about playing the RNG game. If you want predictable defenses we already have Defiance and Invulnerability.
  • rtmartma Posts: 1,200 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    The Dodge nerf shouldn't affect those of average or lower Geared builds, like myself, I can only manage Heroic Gear and lvl 40 and lvl 5 mods gives decent boost but shouldn't be punished, can understand the 'Power Creep' to be curbed but whatever, Despairity and all that.
    Want to get to know me a bit better, Click me and take a read of My Dragon Profile Page, it's a bit dated but still relevant.

    I take this quote from a review that I agree with.

    "customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 7,153 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    LR: - Currently fine, 50% dodge chance is a static value which will always be there, there ARE powers outside of LR which increase dodge to a substantial amount. As others have said 100% dodge SHOULD NOT EXIST without using Masterful Dodge.

    Granting 100% dodge should only be in short bursts, hence why the AD exists.

    Base level LR is at 50% guys, that is without using any other powers, like Thundering Kicks for example.

    Any higher than 50% on LR by itself and it would be like your hero was on crack constantly vibrating in one spot being able to dodge everything. :rolleyes:
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 7,153 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    rtma wrote: »
    The Dodge nerf shouldn't affect those of average or lower Geared builds, like myself, I can only manage Heroic Gear and lvl 40 and lvl 5 mods gives decent boost but shouldn't be punished, can understand the 'Power Creep' to be curbed but whatever, Despairity and all that.

    The Dodge Nerf should take into account all types of power combinations and builds when it is being done. Currently it completely ignores two defensive passives (PFF and Regen), offensive based builds (which do not grant dodge from passives), Non conventional builds in higher level content and Archetypes as a whole.

    I am sure they will eventually take those into consideration when they think about implementing such a change.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 7,153 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Anyways, is it true that SS Ego & Str outperforms Dex in crit chance? I haven't really experimented with SS Str or Ego since these changes. If that is the case, then something needs to be done with SS Dex's Combat Training. There is absolutely no reason why Str>Dex with crit chance, especially when you consider how much SS Str has going for it.

    Currently on LIVE I can gain 52% crit chance with my Psion The Psinister build (Ranged TK), I normally get a lower % chance with DEX primary around 44 to 48%?

    However DEX primary is still damn awesome.
  • selpheaselphea Posts: 1,229 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Any higher than 50% on LR by itself and it would be like your hero was AGENT MOTHERF***ING SMITH

    Fixed, and totally valid character theme :cool:
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 7,153 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    selphea wrote: »
    Fixed, and totally valid character theme :cool:

    LOL, I hope my point was pretty much clear, with combinations of powers high dodge is still attainable.

    From a base perspective, I do wonder if this 50% is applied evenly in all situations and ticks of damage like LR currently is, if not then perhaps 50% is too low, but if
    With the right gear and mods you can roughly hit 75% dodge and 80% avoidance with just LR alone.

    Holds true then I don't see what is wrong with LR's current base value of dodge. Since the DoT alteration and avoidance scales with SSS but dodge doesn't.
  • joybuzzerxjoybuzzerx Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    LR: - Currently fine, 50% dodge chance is a static value which will always be there, there ARE powers outside of LR which increase dodge to a substantial amount. As others have said 100% dodge SHOULD NOT EXIST without using Masterful Dodge.

    Granting 100% dodge should only be in short bursts, hence why the AD exists.

    Base level LR is at 50% guys, that is without using any other powers, like Thundering Kicks for example.

    Any higher than 50% on LR by itself and it would be like your hero was on crack constantly vibrating in one spot being able to dodge everything. :rolleyes:

    I'd argue that Spider-Man dodges more than 50% :p
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 7,153 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    joybuzzerx wrote: »
    I'd argue that Spider-Man dodges more than 50% :p

    He uses [Spider Sense Passive] This passive is currently not in game or NPC only... which brings me to another point..

    Will these dodge changes mean that NPC's will be equally affected? Or will they still remain annoying with LR?
  • joybuzzerxjoybuzzerx Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    He uses [Spider Sense Passive] This passive is currently not in game or NPC only... which brings me to another point..

    That's the energy unlock passive that gives a burst of energy and 5% dodge chance (stacks up to ten times) for 10 seconds every time you dodge an attack, right?
  • nesnonesno Posts: 116 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Well this thread eroded fast.


    -
  • cptmillenniumcptmillennium Posts: 454 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I agree with those who stated dodge should never be able to hit 100% without MD. Dodge is a gamble, or else it's just another form of guaranteed protection like Invulnerability.

    I wouldn't mind seeing Avoidance able to hit 100%, at least in bursts.
    __________________________________________________
    The poster formerly known as Lightwave!
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 7,153 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I wouldn't mind seeing Avoidance able to hit 100%, at least in bursts.

    I could be wrong but wouldn't that eliminate damage all together upon dodge? 100% avoidance that is.

    Akin to Immunity?
  • cptmillenniumcptmillennium Posts: 454 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    100% avoidance would eliminate all damage, yeah. That could work under the right conditions though.

    Maybe you only hit 100% avoidance if the RNG lands on a number less than 20% of your chance to dodge, for example.
    __________________________________________________
    The poster formerly known as Lightwave!
  • atompenguinatompenguin Posts: 89 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    joybuzzerx wrote: »
    I'd argue that Spider-Man dodges more than 50% :p

    In the comics, Spider Man gets beaten to a pulp all the time.

    If people are going to use this argument: He can't dodge 100% of the time and resist damage 100% of the time.

    And neither can you. People that are seriously asking for 100% dodge and avoidance all the time are simple, 100% objectively wrong and they obviously have no idea what they're talking about.
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    -One Shots
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  • flamingbunnymanflamingbunnyman Posts: 1,995 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    joybuzzerx wrote: »
    I'd argue that Spider-Man dodges more than 50% :p

    Base 10% + LR 50% + Elusive Monk 4% + Evasive Maneuvers 22% = 78% Dodge chance (Plus whatever he gets from gear and specs).

    Does that sound closer?
    _________________________________________________
    @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
  • tditstdits Posts: 561 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I could be wrong but wouldn't that eliminate damage all together upon dodge? 100% avoidance that is.

    Akin to Immunity?

    Yes, although this is how dodge works in most games. I'm not against one-hundred percent avoidance, necessarily, but i think it should only be possible for people who both have LR and invest heavily in avoidance or people using other dodge passives who invest heavily in avoidance and use Masterful Dodge. Everyone else should get stuck at around ninetyish avoidance even with MD.

    This would of course, require little if any dodge bonuses from gear, as you'd be stacking avoidance instead.
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  • crypticbuxomcrypticbuxom Posts: 4,630 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Okay. We're done with the testing now. When's the next patch? Include a purpose of why we are testing please. If not at least include a reward (lost dev action figure) for the time invested.
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