In the comics, Spider Man gets beaten to a pulp all the time.
If people are going to use this argument: He can't dodge 100% of the time and resist damage 100% of the time.
And neither can you. People that are seriously asking for 100% dodge and avoidance all the time are simple, 100% objectively wrong and they obviously have no idea what they're talking about.
Didn't ask for 100% Dodge. Just said it was more than 50%. And watching Spidey dodge Wolvie, I'd say it's more than 50% But asking for 100% Avoid is about actually dodging. And yes, when someone dodges something in comics, they don't take any damage
Currently on LIVE I can gain 52% crit chance with my Psion The Psinister build (Ranged TK), I normally get a lower % chance with DEX primary around 44 to 48%?
However DEX primary is still damn awesome.
Yeah, but on PTS I'm sitting at 36% crit with Legion's Gloves of Precision, Vigilante's Critical Belt, 2/3 Combat Training and 350 Dex. Granted, it actually ends up being 42% with Vindicator's 3/3 Focused Strikes tacked on, but it seems like Combat Training depending on critical strike rating is putting it at a disadvantage. SS Str and Ego doesn't go off rating and instead gives a percentage based on the amount of Str or secondary super stats you have.
The same goes for Quick Reflexes, which is going off dodge rating and not a percentage. Both Quick Reflexes and Combat Training needs to be changed.
Personally I'd like to see Combat Training give a percentage based on secondaries, like Ego's Sixth Sense. Offense (what CT currently scales with) seems rather limited when compared to how much you can push your super stats. Quick Reflexes imho should still scale with Dex, but give a percentage instead of rating.
If Combat Training is going to be changed (and I dont think dex needs much love, rec and end are still of much worse), it better be really limited.
Right now on PTS with dex you don't really need crit rating mods, so you can go all out with offense mods, already giving you a nice damage boost. Then if that offense would also improve you crit chance by a flat percentage things would get severely overpowered really fast.
Add to that the over the top severity you can get with dex specs, and the 10% damage increase to your overall damage you can get from Expose Weakness, and damage gets out of hand.
Like it is now r3 Combat Training gives a crit rating of 15% of your offense, and that is not base offense from item, but the offense you see in your character screen. So with the new gear and offense mods and The Best Defense, and the Agrassive Stance specs your offense can get to 700 or so, that gives you 105 crit rating. On top of all the other stuff you get from the dex specs, in my opinion that is more then enough, dex primary is still a top contender for doing the top dps in CO.
On top of that, doing offense stacking in this way also increases your defense by a lot, giving you a really nice damage resistance.
Yeah, but on PTS I'm sitting at 36% crit with Legion's Gloves of Precision, Vigilante's Critical Belt, 2/3 Combat Training and 350 Dex. Granted, it actually ends up being 42% with Vindicator's 3/3 Focused Strikes tacked on, but it seems like Combat Training depending on critical strike rating is putting it at a disadvantage. SS Str and Ego doesn't go off rating and instead gives a percentage based on the amount of Str or secondary super stats you have.
That's odd, I know that my CharmCaster looses around 5% crit chance from 40s to around that value and her DEX is a lot less. (but she does use AoPM)
Psion looses 9.4-10% chance (resting) but still crits like crazy (ESPECIALLY ON THE TK WAVE :biggrin:)
Mainly these changes to crit benefit me, I've gained a whole lot on my healer from 0.1% to 4.5% crit chance from this change alone.
I've only ever used Vigilante gear on one toon.
I've never bothered to check on the crit chance that I gain from specs in addition to my resting chance, it feels like Psion crits ALOT more than he does on LIVE (maybe not a lot more but there is a considerable difference from what I can see anyway.)
I think being able to reach 70-75% dodge on LR should be easily done if you sacrifice crit specs or such for it. more than that maybe never, or only slightly more.
You pick a defensive passive, you should be just that, defensive. Maybe what to do is give offensive passives a +% to their crit, just for being an offensive passive.
you know what? the whole idea that offensive passives are only for dps is wrong.
Offensive passives aren't only for offense? Well, then they need to make sure defensive passives aren't just for defense
Mind you, I support such a change. Just imagine it... Defiance, Invulnerability, Regeneration, PFF, and Lightning Reflexes all having a damage bonus on them
you know what? the whole idea that offensive passives are only for dps is wrong.
you should be able to be just as durable with ANY passive, or at least almost.
however to do this you MUST sacrifice some damage, crit or whatever.
some players want a good mix of offense and defense for a hybrid character, and thats exactly one of the reasons having a freeform system is so awesome.
for instance, my toon Zweihander, she's tough for a unstoppable toon, tanky, but does considerably less damage than your average all DPSer HW toon.
Offensive passives should focus on Offense. Defense should focus on Defense. Otherwise don't call them offense or defense passives.
Being just as durable with any passive is a horrible idea. You want to be Offensive and still tank a bit, then go offensive in your passive and take IDF. it helps. There are many ways to combine powers to be a tanky offensive badass without making all the passive similar.
you know what? the whole idea that offensive passives are only for dps is wrong.
you should be able to be just as durable with ANY passive, or at least almost.
however to do this you MUST sacrifice some damage, crit or whatever.
some players want a good mix of offense and defense for a hybrid character, and thats exactly one of the reasons having a freeform system is so awesome.
for instance, my toon Zweihander, she's tough for a unstoppable toon, tanky, but does considerably less damage than your average all DPSer HW toon.
There's a problem with this.
Damage roles.
People who are picking passives based on mechanical reasons don't pick offensive passives because they're good, they pick offensive passives because they have to use an offensive passive in order to use the Offensive roles.
That 25% non-additive damage bonus is pretty huge, and is part of why Quarry was so popular. Since it let you get Lightning Reflexes-level defense while getting full benefit from the Ranged or Melee damage role. Those role bonuses more than make up for Quarry having a bit less of an additive damage bonus than the other passives.
"Sacrificing some damage on an offensive passive to get defense almost as good as a defensive passive" sounds good in theory, but then you throw that into one of the offensive roles, and you end up with "almost as much tankiness as a defensive passive but with more than 25% more actual damage than a Tank role character".
And that leads us back to the same reason why Quarry and gear dodge/avoid are being nerfed in the first place, because they invalidate defensive passives (and the Tank role).
If we wanted to do your suggestion right, we'd need an entire revamp of the roles to where Tank role has something as valuable for survival as the Melee/Ranged Damage roles' damage boost is valuable to damage. (and you might also want to make Tank role better for survival than Hybrid role, which right now it isn't.)
The logical extension of the above changes is, arguably, the removal of role restrictions on passives. Which I'd be okay with, if it's done right. But I know a lot of people that emphatically would not be okay with that.
At which point we're looking at an entirely different set of changes.
I'm frankly tired of seeing toons with WotW being able to dodge as much as LR toons. If you want to tank, choose a tank passive. If you want to do lots of damage, you are going to have to sacrifice lots of survivability.
I'm welcoming these changes more and more by the day.
I'm frankly tired of seeing toons with WotW being able to dodge as much as LR toons. If you want to tank, choose a tank passive. If you want to do lots of damage, you are going to have to sacrifice lots of survivability.
I'm welcoming these changes more and more by the day.
I think it's more people want to feel like a superhero Maybe stop thinking tank/dps and think...superhero
I'm frankly tired of seeing toons with WotW being able to dodge as much as LR toons. If you want to tank, choose a tank passive. If you want to do lots of damage, you are going to have to sacrifice lots of survivability.
I'm welcoming these changes more and more by the day.
I think rather than the issue being more about theme/concept it is more about the -time- when these changes have been proposed/discussed.
This should really have happened a lot earlier than it did, to minimize the impact it would have had, but that's not the case so, I guess as time goes on we'll have to see how it all turns out for a final iteration.
Hopefully it will be something manageable and to most people's liking without killing off a chunk of builds/players etc
Hopefully it will be something manageable and to most people's liking without killing off a chunk of builds/players etc
Considering that a lot of concepts won't be as liveable anymore (at least players who really dipped into dodge gear) some powers do need to change.
A bit off topic, PFF is a prime example of a power that really needs more of a buff considering that you can't rely on dodge anymore. Perhaps some regen to the bubble every time you attempt to knock a target once every 3 seconds.
What I'm trying to say is that no passive or build alone should be totally reliable on its gear.
Considering that a lot of concepts won't be as liveable anymore (at least players who really dipped into dodge gear) some powers do need to change.
A bit off topic, PFF is a prime example of a power that really needs more of a buff considering that you can't rely on dodge anymore. Perhaps some regen to the bubble every time you attempt to knock a target once every 3 seconds.
What I'm trying to say is that no passive or build alone should be totally reliable on its gear.
It needs innate scaling damage resistance (30-70% high to low shields), shield regen should not go down when taking damage and it should get an inbuilt click heal. [Regarding PFF that is]
IMO anyway, having damage resistance which scaled making it tougher to loose the shielding (to prolong the inevitable cracking) should be a staple for PFF as a defensive passive. In built click heal will also aid PFF. The regen penalty should flat out not exist.
I just wonder if maybe we'll see Defense being a better...defense for super heroes
I'm looking forward to Defense being more useful, too. But I just hope the Offense/Defense insanity doesn't replace a random chance of tankiness to a guaranteed tankiness with a side of higher damage.
I'm looking forward to Defense being more useful, too. But I just hope the Offense/Defense insanity doesn't replace a random chance of tankiness to a guaranteed tankiness with a side of higher damage.
The only trend I'm really seeing is a switch to hybrid role and def passives or aopm thanks to the dodge/avoid. Except, in the mean time, AT players relying on that extra dodge/avoid for mitigation are SoL.
It's not really a new state of balance if FFs can rebuild while most ATs have no real recourse. I've seen what 300+ def on live does for mitigation, and its far from impressive.
The only real brightside "if i could call it that" to dodge being gutted is that ffs in pvp will be decently vulnerable again... until they start rotating MD and Resurge =P.
To summarize - it basically just looks like it will further reduce effective power choices, but not actually prevent the "mage tank" anyway. In a game that prides itself on customization...
The only trend I'm really seeing is a switch to hybrid role and def passives or aopm thanks to the dodge/avoid. Except, in the mean time, AT players relying on that extra dodge/avoid for mitigation are SoL.
It's not really a new state of balance if FFs can rebuild while most ATs have no real recourse. I've seen what 300+ def on live does for mitigation, and its far from impressive.
The only real brightside "if i could call it that" to dodge being gutted is that ffs in pvp will be decently vulnerable again... until they start rotating MD and Resurge =P.
To summarize - it basically just looks like it will further reduce effective power choices, but not actually prevent the "mage tank" anyway. In a game that prides itself on customization...
But...I already have MD and Resurgence rotating O.O Whooot! My concept allowed me to stay ahead of the curve!
The only trend I'm really seeing is a switch to hybrid role and def passives or aopm thanks to the dodge/avoid. Except, in the mean time, AT players relying on that extra dodge/avoid for mitigation are SoL.
ATs were really competent thanks to On Alert specifically because of the dodge gear making anything survivable without heals.
I want to test their survivability on the PTS as things are, but that requires time to get to the content that is strong enough to test it and players to team with who are in the like mindset. There's no incentive for anyone to go that far to test right now.
I hoped they would tweak things a little more. I don't like it when Cryptic is being silent. It makes me think they intend to push this live the way it is.
Actually a lot of hands were on the NWO server merger which effects all their games, so no one was probably available to work on this for the whole week.
Comments
Didn't ask for 100% Dodge. Just said it was more than 50%. And watching Spidey dodge Wolvie, I'd say it's more than 50%
Yeah, but on PTS I'm sitting at 36% crit with Legion's Gloves of Precision, Vigilante's Critical Belt, 2/3 Combat Training and 350 Dex. Granted, it actually ends up being 42% with Vindicator's 3/3 Focused Strikes tacked on, but it seems like Combat Training depending on critical strike rating is putting it at a disadvantage. SS Str and Ego doesn't go off rating and instead gives a percentage based on the amount of Str or secondary super stats you have.
The same goes for Quick Reflexes, which is going off dodge rating and not a percentage. Both Quick Reflexes and Combat Training needs to be changed.
Personally I'd like to see Combat Training give a percentage based on secondaries, like Ego's Sixth Sense. Offense (what CT currently scales with) seems rather limited when compared to how much you can push your super stats. Quick Reflexes imho should still scale with Dex, but give a percentage instead of rating.
Right now on PTS with dex you don't really need crit rating mods, so you can go all out with offense mods, already giving you a nice damage boost. Then if that offense would also improve you crit chance by a flat percentage things would get severely overpowered really fast.
Add to that the over the top severity you can get with dex specs, and the 10% damage increase to your overall damage you can get from Expose Weakness, and damage gets out of hand.
Like it is now r3 Combat Training gives a crit rating of 15% of your offense, and that is not base offense from item, but the offense you see in your character screen. So with the new gear and offense mods and The Best Defense, and the Agrassive Stance specs your offense can get to 700 or so, that gives you 105 crit rating. On top of all the other stuff you get from the dex specs, in my opinion that is more then enough, dex primary is still a top contender for doing the top dps in CO.
On top of that, doing offense stacking in this way also increases your defense by a lot, giving you a really nice damage resistance.
That's odd, I know that my CharmCaster looses around 5% crit chance from 40s to around that value and her DEX is a lot less. (but she does use AoPM)
Psion looses 9.4-10% chance (resting) but still crits like crazy (ESPECIALLY ON THE TK WAVE
Mainly these changes to crit benefit me, I've gained a whole lot on my healer from 0.1% to 4.5% crit chance from this change alone.
I've only ever used Vigilante gear on one toon.
I've never bothered to check on the crit chance that I gain from specs in addition to my resting chance, it feels like Psion crits ALOT more than he does on LIVE (maybe not a lot more but there is a considerable difference from what I can see anyway.)
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
You pick a defensive passive, you should be just that, defensive. Maybe what to do is give offensive passives a +% to their crit, just for being an offensive passive.
Offensive passives aren't only for offense? Well, then they need to make sure defensive passives aren't just for defense
Mind you, I support such a change. Just imagine it... Defiance, Invulnerability, Regeneration, PFF, and Lightning Reflexes all having a damage bonus on them
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Offensive passives should focus on Offense. Defense should focus on Defense. Otherwise don't call them offense or defense passives.
Being just as durable with any passive is a horrible idea. You want to be Offensive and still tank a bit, then go offensive in your passive and take IDF. it helps. There are many ways to combine powers to be a tanky offensive badass without making all the passive similar.
There's a problem with this.
Damage roles.
People who are picking passives based on mechanical reasons don't pick offensive passives because they're good, they pick offensive passives because they have to use an offensive passive in order to use the Offensive roles.
That 25% non-additive damage bonus is pretty huge, and is part of why Quarry was so popular. Since it let you get Lightning Reflexes-level defense while getting full benefit from the Ranged or Melee damage role. Those role bonuses more than make up for Quarry having a bit less of an additive damage bonus than the other passives.
"Sacrificing some damage on an offensive passive to get defense almost as good as a defensive passive" sounds good in theory, but then you throw that into one of the offensive roles, and you end up with "almost as much tankiness as a defensive passive but with more than 25% more actual damage than a Tank role character".
And that leads us back to the same reason why Quarry and gear dodge/avoid are being nerfed in the first place, because they invalidate defensive passives (and the Tank role).
If we wanted to do your suggestion right, we'd need an entire revamp of the roles to where Tank role has something as valuable for survival as the Melee/Ranged Damage roles' damage boost is valuable to damage. (and you might also want to make Tank role better for survival than Hybrid role, which right now it isn't.)
The logical extension of the above changes is, arguably, the removal of role restrictions on passives. Which I'd be okay with, if it's done right. But I know a lot of people that emphatically would not be okay with that.
At which point we're looking at an entirely different set of changes.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
_______________________________
The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
_______________________________
-sorry, that comes out a snarkier than intended.
I'm welcoming these changes more and more by the day.
I think it's more people want to feel like a superhero
I think rather than the issue being more about theme/concept it is more about the -time- when these changes have been proposed/discussed.
This should really have happened a lot earlier than it did, to minimize the impact it would have had, but that's not the case so, I guess as time goes on we'll have to see how it all turns out for a final iteration.
Hopefully it will be something manageable and to most people's liking without killing off a chunk of builds/players etc
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
Batmans a superhero.
If Batman gets shot he dies.
Deliciously nutritious!
Why he wears armor to go along with his agility
Dat armour.
Deliciously nutritious!
Considering that a lot of concepts won't be as liveable anymore (at least players who really dipped into dodge gear) some powers do need to change.
A bit off topic, PFF is a prime example of a power that really needs more of a buff considering that you can't rely on dodge anymore. Perhaps some regen to the bubble every time you attempt to knock a target once every 3 seconds.
What I'm trying to say is that no passive or build alone should be totally reliable on its gear.
It needs innate scaling damage resistance (30-70% high to low shields), shield regen should not go down when taking damage and it should get an inbuilt click heal. [Regarding PFF that is]
IMO anyway, having damage resistance which scaled making it tougher to loose the shielding (to prolong the inevitable cracking) should be a staple for PFF as a defensive passive. In built click heal will also aid PFF. The regen penalty should flat out not exist.
I just wonder if maybe we'll see Defense being a better...defense for super heroes
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
The only trend I'm really seeing is a switch to hybrid role and def passives or aopm thanks to the dodge/avoid. Except, in the mean time, AT players relying on that extra dodge/avoid for mitigation are SoL.
It's not really a new state of balance if FFs can rebuild while most ATs have no real recourse. I've seen what 300+ def on live does for mitigation, and its far from impressive.
The only real brightside "if i could call it that" to dodge being gutted is that ffs in pvp will be decently vulnerable again... until they start rotating MD and Resurge =P.
To summarize - it basically just looks like it will further reduce effective power choices, but not actually prevent the "mage tank" anyway. In a game that prides itself on customization...
But...I already have MD and Resurgence rotating O.O Whooot! My concept allowed me to stay ahead of the curve!
/o/
\o\
/o/
ATs were really competent thanks to On Alert specifically because of the dodge gear making anything survivable without heals.
I want to test their survivability on the PTS as things are, but that requires time to get to the content that is strong enough to test it and players to team with who are in the like mindset. There's no incentive for anyone to go that far to test right now.
I hoped they would tweak things a little more. I don't like it when Cryptic is being silent. It makes me think they intend to push this live the way it is.