[*]Mods now give their correct stat values when slotted into Justice gear.
Please define "correct".
If you mean the amounts that they give on live, then you're just making them give the same broken amounts that live gives. There's no way +4 bonus between R7 and R9 isn't broken considering the amount of time and resources it takes to get mods from R7 to R9. (Not to mention the small matter of the number of safeguard catalysts you guys will sell when more people try to make R9 mods... just saying)
It would seem like that should be one of the first things you guys fix if you're wanting to see the true impact of these changes. Coming behind all these "balance fixes" and finally fixing them then is going to throw off your numbers.
Just a thought.
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That's how I took Fluidity to be, the Matrix style dodging.
Seems more like Void with the upgrade.. the longer you block the more effective it is.
Of course, the more you block, the less effective YOU are though.
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Dodge Scaling Update
The new dodge scaling is roughly half of what it is on live. For comparative reasons I will show a small collect of the past changes.
Elusive Monk.
I am a bit torn on this...On Live and with the Live dodge scaling it benefits someone without any dodge rating more. On PTS and with the PTS dodge scaling it benefits someone pushing diminishing returns due to the flat rate%.
If you want to know what the pts% would be for the old version of Elusive monk just cut the live% in half and you have a rough estimate of it.
___________
Justice Gear
I am going to ignore the bug with said gear that I already reported earlier.
Initial release of Justice Gear, although grossly large, had an actual incentive to get justice gear. The 'inflated' mods were fun to play around with and allowed players to see the tip of the iceberg when it comes to passive scaling. The set bonus is meh at best and the values for the gear itself is lacking with legion gear being the superior of the two types in that regard.
Why is the utility gear lacking? I mean, the 76/76 on defense gear is an 'upgrade' from legion's 139 but the utility gear is just a hit at your stats for 2 extra defense. Is it because of the set bonus coupled with the fact that you are changing offense from additive to multiplicative? By itself, 147.4 offense is only 5.5% multiplicative bonus damage
Then again, what is there to do that would justify any gear greater than heroic? Pvp?
*Guess Fluidity isn't as useless as I thought. It's just GAME BREAKING!:rolleyes:
I think there was a reason why Parry's advantage was made into a melee only Advantage.
Suggestion: Change Fluidity's advantage like so.
1) Reduce block time required to 1 second (down from 2).
2) Make the buff last 6-7 (down from 10).
3) Halve the effectiveness of the buff granted. (R1 + adv would be 15%. R2+ adv would be 30% Etc).
4) Give Fluidity a more thematic animation. (Matrix dodging would be cool. ).
4) Give Fluidity a more thematic animation. (Matrix dodging would be cool. ).
I've been wanting this.
Is there currently any power or effect in game that causes a dodge animation?
Fluidity triggering a dodge animation when attacked (like how parry triggers a kick animation) would be cool.
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1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
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Dodge Scaling Update
The new dodge scaling is roughly half of what it is on live. For comparative reasons I will show a small collect of the past changes.
That sounds pretty decent. Looks like about 17% Dodge off just a R5 Gambler's Gem and about 22-23% for Heroic Dodge gear with a R5 GLG. With the Dodge passives giving fixed amounts, they should be even better than on live, and non-dodge passives can still get noticeable amounts of dodge.
_________________________________________________ @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
After this latest batch of changes, I can honestly say I have no further objections to these balance changes. Fluidity still seems a little useless as a block since it doesn't even give you the resistance buff from the default block power, but that's about all.
I think if Fluidity wants to be a block replacer, it should work like this:
Fluidity:
R1=100% Dogde Chance, 200% Avoidance
R2=150% Dogde Chance, 210% Avoidance
R3=200% Dogde Chance, 220% Avoidance
Feel free to comment or change the numbers if you want.
Because the current way it is now, it's more like a toggle defensive form where you have to block to activate it. Just my own honest opinion.
Well that's odd to hear. Whenever I've used PFF, I've noticed it become A LOT more durable once I used the Force Sheath Adv with it. I guess it's just the damage mitigation from Force Sheath doing it then. *shrug*
Still, the Force Shield+Adv/Evasive Maneuvers(with suggested changes) Combo would be better for a PFF user over Fluidity.
It does work better, Force Sheathe reduces the incoming damage to PFF by an amount which makes PFF slightly more durable than before, due to mitigation buff to PFF via Force Sheathe.
For an "all force" theme, Fluidity would be breaking theme (for me), so I'd love to see PFF changes, to make it a better passive without having to build around it so much. There is already a thread about this in the PTS section.
I am -slightly- worried about the numbers dodge wise, however they are a darn sight better than what they used to be, I guess the builds of mine which rely on dodge will just have to fight that little bit smarter or keep everything in LoS and CC the hell out of everything. :rolleyes:
No. You can't find a use for it, that's cool. Myself and many others already have. You don't have to take it, there are over 100 other powers to take to fill your 14 picks if you don't like this one.
No. You can't find a use for it, that's cool. Myself and many others already have. You don't have to take it, there are over 100 other powers to take to fill your 14 picks if you don't like this one.
My sentiments precisely regarding cooltastic's Ego Placate suggestion.
Regarding Dodge/Avoid changes:
- I am not concerned about these changes as much as I was, however I still factor PFF as being affected by the change (and as a result hope PFF is considered when this change is made and buffed accordingly).
That being said..I don't think I'll be running Gravitar as much on Mentella...
EDIT: Just tested on a toon with 19% dodge and who takes advantage of stacking defences (Psion The Psinister), mob wise he seemed to do relatively the same, probably would have done better if I didn't enjoy charging TK wave as much >_>"
He's lost about 9.4% crit chance and perhaps 3% severity? But it didn't seem to impact me much...he was still too much fun
Hmmm...looks like Quarry still took a big hit to Dodge Chance (which may be my build, I was just checking things out before I leave for work )...with LR looking to be good. Haven't checked out NW or WotW.
Bit confused on how Defense works, as I'm not sure just how much of Defenses Resistance actually resists, so not sure how that effects survival.
Yeah - I think Dodge is still a bit low with the current curve, at least when you're not stacking extra powers.
And maybe Avoidance is slightly too high.
Hear me out.
R5 Gamblers in Heroic Avoidance gear - my 40s have ~18% dodge, and 55% avoidance on PTS. Live, that's about 38% dodge I believe, and 58% avoid. So avoid was only slightly lowered, that's cool.
It seems as though we'd get a bit more predictability from something like this:
R5 Gamblers maybe giving ... ~10% dodge? Something like that? While lowering the Avoidance on the Heroic gear (or the curve from Avoidance rating, whatever) so that *base* gear-only Avoidance is 50%, but "baseline" dodge is maybe 20%.
I guess the question is - are the devs trying to rein in the relatively crazy things high-end, wealthy in-game builders can do? I.e. solo Kigitilik, solo Gravitar (sorry monsterdaddy .... I love reading your threads, but I can't help but wondering if they're trying to "rein you in" some)... or give more challenges to more average players even with endgame gear?
I think going from ~ 40% or so Dodge on live and roughly 60% avoidance from gear, to maybe 20-25% dodge and 50% avoidance from gear would potentially make other defensive gear choices more attractive for all players, rather than the current situation on live (all-dodge all-avoid, nothing else really makes a lot of sense)... or the gutting that Dodge gear/chance received during the first iteration.
Thoughts?
Anyone else okay with this idea?
I am just looking to give a bit more predictability. And 55% seems ... odd to me.
Okay, so that's 20% (base) + 35%. So, what if the Heroic gear gave +30% avoid instead? And heck, while we're at it, could we maybe just do away with Avoidance "rating" from most things? Rating is confusing and hides what it does. Flat percentages are much less confusing and much more predictable without having to go to Excel and figure out the translation from "rating" to "real".
What would this do to LR / WotW / Quarry / NW?
Let's assume 10% dodge (base), +10% from an R5 gamblers. That's 20% as the "regular" baseline for most 40s.
Then, let's see...
LR: R1 +30%, R2 + 40%, R3 + 50%.
So R3 LR with Heroic Avoid and a gamblers gem this way would be... exactly 70% dodge.
NW: 10/15/20.
NW R3 (20%) + base (10%) + Gem R5 (10%) = 40% to start.
WotW: 15/20/25.
WotW R3 (25%) + base (10%) + Gem R5 (10%) = 45% to start.
Quarry:
30% base chance to dodge (10% + base 10% + Gem R5 10%) = 30% to start.
It would have better avoidance, though, +15% at base.
I do wonder if 4% dodge from TEM is too low also. 5% would be reasonable, IMO but it always depends on what you stack on top of it all.
What if Gamblers gems just gave a flat 2% dodge from each rank?
So R1 = 2%, R4 = 8%, R5 = 10%, R9 = 18%?
It gets a LOT more predictable how much you're using with each rank than the various curved "ratings".
Rating hides things in translation, but we have posters like ayonachan who work out the math anyway.
Would that be *too* high in combination with other dodge boosts?
R5 Gem = 10%, base = 10%, LR R3 50%, Parry / TEM 4%, EM R3 22%... that would be 96% dodge without any other buffs. BUT that's a hit to damage (TEM), and repeatedly refreshing Evasive Maneuvers.
Or Fluidity would push it higher too, haven't done the math on that.
Bearing in mind also, that most folks may not bother getting uber ranked mods.
I have a few R7s from lockboxes, but I haven't bothered making or buying more.
I typically find R5 to be "enough" for me for most 40s.... but I have altitis like crazy too.
Wow, nice one with the EM fix. That would have been a big problem. Hopefully the slightly longer recharge time will stop people from being able to keep up 2 stacks 24/7.
One thing I did notice is how you just buffed MD. Confused at that. (The advantage I mean but this would mean more damage while having god mode on... So yeah.)
Do you realise that with this new gear you can get AO's down to 20 seconds with r9's and seeing as with everything, you can already get it to 20 seconds on live I believe with this new gear it will be fairly easy to get it to or close to 15 seconds. This means that you'll be able to rotate MD's to keep it up 24/7. Yes that's right you'll be able to get 250% dodge chance and 90% avoidance 24/7 without even needing something like revitalise. Kinda funny if you ask me.
ALSO
'Crashing Wave Kick: Ebb and Flow: This advantage now grants 1% Dodge per stack. '
Was this REALLY needed? I thought the stacks go when you dodge an attack. Unless you are versing gravitar who doesn't hit very often you'll probably find that you dodge the '1 damage' instead of the '1000 damage' which doesn't really make it sound like this was something that was needed. 0.o Ah well, they are both considered 'the pointless skills' in the long list of other skills that are much worse that the cheesy usual stuff.
What if Gamblers gems just gave a flat 2% dodge from each rank?
So R1 = 2%, R4 = 8%, R5 = 10%, R9 = 18%?
It gets a LOT more predictable how much you're using with each rank than the various curved "ratings".
Rating hides things in translation, but we have posters like ayonachan who work out the math anyway.
Would that be *too* high in combination with other dodge boosts?
R5 Gem = 10%, base = 10%, LR R3 50%, Parry / TEM 4%, EM R3 22%... that would be 96% dodge without any other buffs. BUT that's a hit to damage (TEM), and repeatedly refreshing Evasive Maneuvers.
Or Fluidity would push it higher too, haven't done the math on that.
Bearing in mind also, that most folks may not bother getting uber ranked mods.
I have a few R7s from lockboxes, but I haven't bothered making or buying more.
I typically find R5 to be "enough" for me for most 40s.... but I have altitis like crazy too.
If it didn't suffer from Diminishing Returns, 18 + 18 = 36% Dodge, so LR would get up to 86% Dodge Chance, so the question would be, would that be to high, especially when one could be LR, slot those, and then use EM.
If it didn't suffer from Diminishing Returns, 18 + 18 = 36% Dodge, so LR would get up to 86% Dodge Chance, so the question would be, would that be to high, especially when one could be LR, slot those, and then use EM.
If you start slotting all dodge you'll no longer have all avoidance meaning that you wont be as high in that area, although you probably still have about 70%.
Wow, nice one with the EM fix. That would have been a big problem. Hopefully the slightly longer recharge time will stop people from being able to keep up 2 stacks 24/7.
One thing I did notice is how you just buffed MD. Confused at that. (The advantage I mean but this would mean more damage while having god mode on... So yeah.)
Do you realise that with this new gear you can get AO's down to 20 seconds with r9's and seeing as with everything, you can already get it to 20 seconds on live I believe with this new gear it will be fairly easy to get it to or close to 15 seconds. This means that you'll be able to rotate MD's to keep it up 24/7. Yes that's right you'll be able to get 250% dodge chance and 90% avoidance 24/7 without even needing something like revitalise. Kinda funny if you ask me.
On Live I have both AOs at 33 Seconds. One lasts for 15 seconds and the other 18 seconds. So can already keep AOs perma. As for ADs...I know personally, I don't find MD to be as effective as other players say it is and still find myself healing.
It's for tanking. Tanks shouldn't be worried about their DPS.
I know we have DPS tanks in the game right now, but that's what a lot of these changes are trying to fix.
well said smackwell
the way i understand it, dodging is SUPPOSED to be a chore. the light dodge you get from the offensive passives is supposed to be slight damage reduction, not be able to tank everything that people build pure tank otherwise to take on. Melee DPS though needs to be looked at[come completely and entirely buffed to be able to compete with ranged builds dps], but that's a different task ad a different time.
Do you realise that with this new gear you can get AO's down to 20 seconds with r9's and seeing as with everything, you can already get it to 20 seconds on live I believe with this new gear it will be fairly easy to get it to or close to 15 seconds. This means that you'll be able to rotate MD's to keep it up 24/7. Yes that's right you'll be able to get 250% dodge chance and 90% avoidance 24/7 without even needing something like revitalise. Kinda funny if you ask me.
Re-read the patch notes they have nerfed Justice Gear to give you what regular level 40 mods give you with the exception of the overlooked mods.
Although, it is fully possible to get Active offenses/defenses/both down to 20 seconds and even 'perma' ES/MD yourself on Live without the use of revitalize. The new justice utility gear gives less cooldown/costdiscount than legion gear of the same caliber.
I don't think that's game breaking at all. we would have been fine without ANY of these changes, now you want them to nerf active offenses too? they are already entertaining nerfing EM, good job folks.
Well, I do fully admit to thinking Quarry needed nerfed or LR buffed.
Would actually love love LOVE to beable to get my AO down to 15 seconds! Need to work for it and totally gear up for it? OKAY! But if I was able to get my AO down to 15 seconds, I could then pick another theme power Maybe take Thundering Kicks!
Well, I do fully admit to thinking Quarry needed nerfed or LR buffed.
Would actually love love LOVE to beable to get my AO down to 15 seconds! Need to work for it and totally gear up for it? OKAY! But if I was able to get my AO down to 15 seconds, I could then pick another theme power Maybe take Thundering Kicks!
Thundering Kicks + Lock and Load with Two Smoking Barrels advantage..GO!
^ I used to have a build which incorporated that on Bionic Bullet before I decided to go more ranged than melee, it was a fantastic combo, especially with INT
Thundering Kicks + Lock and Load with Two Smoking Barrels advantage..GO!
^ I used to have a build which incorporated that on Bionic Bullet before I decided to go more ranged than melee, it was a fantastic combo, especially with INT
Used to have it, on a not really planned out build, untill I realized, "Oh hey! Only need the one single target attack, and it'll allow me to use more AOs!"
So then I switched to MA EB for the martial arts fix.
I believe that, both, the additive damage bonus and the critical chance bonus for melee attacks are void if you get two smoking barrels.
I know for a fact that the additive damage bonus is removed. The Critical Chance bonus is extremely hard to test.
At least we can still put an hour of shredded on mobs ?
I would think *not sure* the idea is to use Lock N Load -> Munition Attacks -> Thunder Kicks for dodge bonus and lower the recharge on Lock N Load -> Repeat.
I would think *not sure* the idea is to use Lock N Load -> Munition Attacks -> Thunder Kicks for dodge bonus and lower the recharge on Lock N Load -> Repeat.
^ This. I used Thundering for when it went into CD mode :biggrin:
The crit bonus shows up on tooltip. I just tested it and the crit bonus stays. The energy cost reduction also stays.
Wah? Enlighten me please wise Ayonachan!
Just because the crit bonus is on the tool-tip doesn't mean it doesnt have a -critchance for melee tag. Cost reduction is something you can test though~
You can apply a theoretically endless shredded debuff duration on mobs on, both, live and pts. The advantage on shred and the underused power known as Viper's Fangs is the easiest way to apply said debuff. Nothing too special or broken about it since it is only duration which is increased...still 525600 minutes(that would be 2628000 procs of shredded debuff not including the time lost from activation and execution) of shredded debuff on any given mob is a bit 'op' then again if the mob can live for the amount of time it took to stack said debuff that high then the mob in question is the 'op' part...
I hope someone gets the reference..I really do...partly because I'm now singing it..
I did some checking (on just the numbers, didn't actually take my characters into fights or anything) but here's generally what I got from the perspective of the average user.
Quarry R3 w/ Heroic Dodge/Avoid Gear (R5s)
31% dodge chance
w/ Evasive Maneuvers R2 w/Advantage: 49% (R2 now gives 18% as opposed to 20%)
Lightning Reflexes R3 w/ Blue Dodge/Avoid Gear (I dropped the ball on this one, sorry people)
67.8% dodge chance (60% base)
w/ Concentrated Lead Tempest: 83%
Specialist confirmed for awesome.
Presumably any other passive that doesn't have dodge built in too. Mmmmm...
Oh, and one more thing that I need to mention before I have to go! I don't think it's massive dodge/avoid that's the MAIN problem. It's the massive healing people are capable of that make the game too easy. A Hybrid with 10 Pre can heal 1.2k with Conviction and crit for potentially 2.4k. This isn't so bad, however, because that's just 10 Pre and a hefty spike or a good heal debuff'll still kill the hybrid... however, stack Bonus Healing, Pre, AoPM, and various specs along with craptons of Con, along with dodge/avoid gear (on Live, not here) and you can survive anything. I once saw someone facetank Cybermind's virus rain with BUBBLES while the rest of the team but myself died. Not to mention the PvP horror stories of too much healing...
Oh, and Ascension also grants a big healing bonus.
Just because the crit bonus is on the tool-tip doesn't mean it doesnt have a -critchance for melee tag. Cost reduction is something you can test though~
You can apply a theoretically endless shredded debuff duration on mobs on, both, live and pts. The advantage on shred and the underused power known as Viper's Fangs is the easiest way to apply said debuff. Nothing too special or broken about it since it is only duration which is increased...still 525600 minutes(that would be 2628000 procs of shredded debuff not including the time lost from activation and execution) of shredded debuff on any given mob is a bit 'op' then again if the mob can live for the amount of time it took to stack said debuff that high then the mob in question is the 'op' part...
I hope someone gets the reference..I really do...partly because I'm now singing it..
What exactly am I missing? Now I might not have payed attention enough, but I don't recall my Viper's Fang using hero keeping the shredded debuff on the target without refreshing it, but maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention.
The one good thing to come out of this is Lightning Reflexes makes sense now. Before, I could never figure out why anyone would take LR over Quarry with freeform. It's just too bad Quarry's dodge chance had to be gutted to the point that it's garbage now. Although I was against the dodge changes, I was hoping most of the dodge passive offenses would be capable of hitting the 50% mark with rank 3 and the right gear. That isn't the case. So I'll be one of the many that will be making the switch to LR.
With that said, I hope the devs have the decency to do the the following when this whole thing goes live:
1) Free retcon
2) Unbind Legion gear
3) Free mod removals for so many days
At least give us the opportunity to earn our globals back so we can replace what we need to.
The one good thing to come out of this is Lightning Reflexes makes sense now. Before, I could never figure out why anyone would take LR over Quarry with freeform. It's just too bad Quarry's dodge chance had to be gutted to the point that it's garbage now. Although I was against the dodge changes, I was hoping most of the dodge passive offenses would be capable of hitting the 50% mark with rank 3 and the right gear. That isn't the case. So I'll be one of the many that will be making the switch to LR.
With that said, I hope the devs have the decency to do the the following when this whole thing goes live:
1) Free retcon
2) Unbind Legion gear
3) Free mod removals for so many days
At least give us the opportunity to earn our globals back so we can replace what we need to.
At the most I can only see point 1 being a possibility. Unbinding Legion Gear and free mod removals...I cannot see that happening ever, but I could be wrong.
At the most I can only see point 1 being a possibility. Unbinding Legion Gear and free mod removals...I cannot see that happening ever, but I could be wrong.
I mean they unbound Legacy Devices right?
Yes, they did. As much as Legion's Breastplate of Agility and Gambler mods (high rank) cost, it would be of extremely poor taste to tell players to "suck it up" with their losses due to these changes. I currently have 3 toons sporting such gear/mods, and at least 2 will need complete revamps. That's like 9-10k worth of globals, and that may even be low-balling it.
The one good thing to come out of this is Lightning Reflexes makes sense now. Before, I could never figure out why anyone would take LR over Quarry with freeform. It's just too bad Quarry's dodge chance had to be gutted to the point that it's garbage now. Although I was against the dodge changes, I was hoping most of the dodge passive offenses would be capable of hitting the 50% mark with rank 3 and the right gear. That isn't the case. So I'll be one of the many that will be making the switch to LR.
With that said, I hope the devs have the decency to do the the following when this whole thing goes live:
1) Free retcon
2) Unbind Legion gear
3) Free mod removals for so many days
At least give us the opportunity to earn our globals back so we can replace what we need to.
I don't recall 100%, but I can swear Quarry hit 50% With R3 and the right gear. Also, don't underestimate those who prefer more damage over more dodge.
Really, I only took Quarry because the dodge was better than LR, the avoidance was less, but not so much less for to really notice the difference, while the damage was quite a bit more.
Quarry also has other things going for it, the +INT/EGO. It's been lowered too, but it's just not something I would discount just yet.
I don't recall 100%, but I can swear Quarry hit 50% With R3 and the right gear. Also, don't underestimate those who prefer more damage over more dodge.
Really, I only took Quarry because the dodge was better than LR, the avoidance was less, but not so much less for to really notice the difference, while the damage was quite a bit more.
Quarry also has other things going for it, the +INT/EGO. It's been lowered too, but it's just not something I would discount just yet.
Quarry Rank 3 with Legion's Breastplate of Agility (2 rank 9 Gambler's) = 38% dodge on PTS right now. On live it's 74%. That's almost 50% less. Definitely enough that some, like myself, will feel forced to go with an alternative. If the changes weren't so drastic, I could see Cryptic saying it's not enough to ruin one's gameplay, so reimbursement is not necessary. That isn't the case with these changes. They're rather huge for some of us, and that's not an over exaggeration. Just look at the numbers.
Quarry Rank 3 with Legion's Breastplate of Agility (2 rank 9 Gambler's) = 38% dodge on PTS right now. On live it's 74%. That's almost 50% less. Definitely enough that some, like myself, will feel forced to go with an alternative. If the changes weren't so drastic, I could see Cryptic saying it's not enough to ruin one's gameplay, so reimbursement is not necessary. That isn't the case with these changes. They're rather huge for some of us, and that's not an over exaggeration. Just look at the numbers.
It's still the most defensive of the offensive passives, by a huge margin.
People that were using it in lieu of LR, yeah. I can see you wanting to switch.
But people that are using it as an Offensive Passive with damage versatility and good defenses, they should still be okay.
Though they may want to look at re-implementing a part of the "charge time scales dodge chance" thing that they dropped with On Alert.
Maybe with something like "attacks that take over 2 seconds to charge grant you 1.5x your listed dodge chance". So a dodge of 30% becomes 45%. With no penalty to dodge on fast attacks.
It allows dodge gear/passives to still help against higher-hitting PvE content, without making dodge gear a no-brainer for everyone, and without making Quarry stronger than LR at LR's proscribed job.
I'm making this up off the top of my head, so the numbers probably need to be tweaked.
Comments
Please define "correct".
If you mean the amounts that they give on live, then you're just making them give the same broken amounts that live gives. There's no way +4 bonus between R7 and R9 isn't broken considering the amount of time and resources it takes to get mods from R7 to R9. (Not to mention the small matter of the number of safeguard catalysts you guys will sell when more people try to make R9 mods... just saying)
It would seem like that should be one of the first things you guys fix if you're wanting to see the true impact of these changes. Coming behind all these "balance fixes" and finally fixing them then is going to throw off your numbers.
Just a thought.
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Seems more like Void with the upgrade.. the longer you block the more effective it is.
Of course, the more you block, the less effective YOU are though.
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The new dodge scaling is roughly half of what it is on live. For comparative reasons I will show a small collect of the past changes.
Live%|Dodge#|PTS1%(Old initial release version)|PTS2%(current)
10%|Base|10% 10%
N/a% |76| 12.4% 15.4%
42.5% |153| 14.6% 19.7%
54.5% |292| 18% 25.5%
55.3% |306| 18.3% 26%
61.7% |445| 21.1% 30.1%
_____________
Elusive Monk.
I am a bit torn on this...On Live and with the Live dodge scaling it benefits someone without any dodge rating more. On PTS and with the PTS dodge scaling it benefits someone pushing diminishing returns due to the flat rate%.
PTS% | Dexterity| Dodge(This is only on the Live Version) | LiveDodge%-10%Base |Avoidance#
4% 5 1.6 0.6%1.6
4.4% 45 15 5.2% 15
4.5% 63 21 7% 21
4.7% 85 28 9.2% 28
5% 134 44 13.5% 44
5.1% 191 63 18% 63
5.7% 214 70 19.5% 70
6% 249 82 21.8% 82
6.6% 329 109 26.4% 109
7% 373 123 28.5% 123
7.3% 417 138 30.5% 138
7.7% 461 152 32.4% 152
If you want to know what the pts% would be for the old version of Elusive monk just cut the live% in half and you have a rough estimate of it.
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Justice Gear
I am going to ignore the bug with said gear that I already reported earlier.
Initial release of Justice Gear, although grossly large, had an actual incentive to get justice gear. The 'inflated' mods were fun to play around with and allowed players to see the tip of the iceberg when it comes to passive scaling. The set bonus is meh at best and the values for the gear itself is lacking with legion gear being the superior of the two types in that regard.
Why is the utility gear lacking? I mean, the 76/76 on defense gear is an 'upgrade' from legion's 139 but the utility gear is just a hit at your stats for 2 extra defense. Is it because of the set bonus coupled with the fact that you are changing offense from additive to multiplicative? By itself, 147.4 offense is only 5.5% multiplicative bonus damage
Then again, what is there to do that would justify any gear greater than heroic? Pvp?
Suggestion: Change Fluidity's advantage like so.
1) Reduce block time required to 1 second (down from 2).
2) Make the buff last 6-7 (down from 10).
3) Halve the effectiveness of the buff granted. (R1 + adv would be 15%. R2+ adv would be 30% Etc).
4) Give Fluidity a more thematic animation. (Matrix dodging would be cool.
No. 4 was just my preference sticking out. :P
Is the attitude necessary? Just post the numbers and it's more likely to be taken seriously. It's on PTS for a reason: The power is not final yet.
I've been wanting this.
Is there currently any power or effect in game that causes a dodge animation?
Fluidity triggering a dodge animation when attacked (like how parry triggers a kick animation) would be cool.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
That sounds pretty decent. Looks like about 17% Dodge off just a R5 Gambler's Gem and about 22-23% for Heroic Dodge gear with a R5 GLG. With the Dodge passives giving fixed amounts, they should be even better than on live, and non-dodge passives can still get noticeable amounts of dodge.
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Fluidity:
R1=100% Dogde Chance, 200% Avoidance
R2=150% Dogde Chance, 210% Avoidance
R3=200% Dogde Chance, 220% Avoidance
Feel free to comment or change the numbers if you want.
Because the current way it is now, it's more like a toggle defensive form where you have to block to activate it. Just my own honest opinion.
It does work better, Force Sheathe reduces the incoming damage to PFF by an amount which makes PFF slightly more durable than before, due to mitigation buff to PFF via Force Sheathe.
For an "all force" theme, Fluidity would be breaking theme (for me), so I'd love to see PFF changes, to make it a better passive without having to build around it so much. There is already a thread about this in the PTS section.
I am -slightly- worried about the numbers dodge wise, however they are a darn sight better than what they used to be, I guess the builds of mine which rely on dodge will just have to fight that little bit smarter or keep everything in LoS and CC the hell out of everything. :rolleyes:
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No. You can't find a use for it, that's cool. Myself and many others already have. You don't have to take it, there are over 100 other powers to take to fill your 14 picks if you don't like this one.
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My sentiments precisely regarding cooltastic's Ego Placate suggestion.
Regarding Dodge/Avoid changes:
- I am not concerned about these changes as much as I was, however I still factor PFF as being affected by the change (and as a result hope PFF is considered when this change is made and buffed accordingly).
That being said..I don't think I'll be running Gravitar as much on Mentella...
EDIT: Just tested on a toon with 19% dodge and who takes advantage of stacking defences (Psion The Psinister), mob wise he seemed to do relatively the same, probably would have done better if I didn't enjoy charging TK wave as much >_>"
He's lost about 9.4% crit chance and perhaps 3% severity? But it didn't seem to impact me much...he was still too much fun
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Bit confused on how Defense works, as I'm not sure just how much of Defenses Resistance actually resists, so not sure how that effects survival.
And maybe Avoidance is slightly too high.
Hear me out.
R5 Gamblers in Heroic Avoidance gear - my 40s have ~18% dodge, and 55% avoidance on PTS. Live, that's about 38% dodge I believe, and 58% avoid. So avoid was only slightly lowered, that's cool.
It seems as though we'd get a bit more predictability from something like this:
R5 Gamblers maybe giving ... ~10% dodge? Something like that? While lowering the Avoidance on the Heroic gear (or the curve from Avoidance rating, whatever) so that *base* gear-only Avoidance is 50%, but "baseline" dodge is maybe 20%.
I guess the question is - are the devs trying to rein in the relatively crazy things high-end, wealthy in-game builders can do? I.e. solo Kigitilik, solo Gravitar (sorry monsterdaddy .... I love reading your threads, but I can't help but wondering if they're trying to "rein you in" some)... or give more challenges to more average players even with endgame gear?
I think going from ~ 40% or so Dodge on live and roughly 60% avoidance from gear, to maybe 20-25% dodge and 50% avoidance from gear would potentially make other defensive gear choices more attractive for all players, rather than the current situation on live (all-dodge all-avoid, nothing else really makes a lot of sense)... or the gutting that Dodge gear/chance received during the first iteration.
Thoughts?
Anyone else okay with this idea?
I am just looking to give a bit more predictability. And 55% seems ... odd to me.
Okay, so that's 20% (base) + 35%. So, what if the Heroic gear gave +30% avoid instead? And heck, while we're at it, could we maybe just do away with Avoidance "rating" from most things? Rating is confusing and hides what it does. Flat percentages are much less confusing and much more predictable without having to go to Excel and figure out the translation from "rating" to "real".
What would this do to LR / WotW / Quarry / NW?
Let's assume 10% dodge (base), +10% from an R5 gamblers. That's 20% as the "regular" baseline for most 40s.
Then, let's see...
LR: R1 +30%, R2 + 40%, R3 + 50%.
So R3 LR with Heroic Avoid and a gamblers gem this way would be... exactly 70% dodge.
NW: 10/15/20.
NW R3 (20%) + base (10%) + Gem R5 (10%) = 40% to start.
WotW: 15/20/25.
WotW R3 (25%) + base (10%) + Gem R5 (10%) = 45% to start.
Quarry:
30% base chance to dodge (10% + base 10% + Gem R5 10%) = 30% to start.
It would have better avoidance, though, +15% at base.
I do wonder if 4% dodge from TEM is too low also. 5% would be reasonable, IMO but it always depends on what you stack on top of it all.
What if Gamblers gems just gave a flat 2% dodge from each rank?
So R1 = 2%, R4 = 8%, R5 = 10%, R9 = 18%?
It gets a LOT more predictable how much you're using with each rank than the various curved "ratings".
Rating hides things in translation, but we have posters like ayonachan who work out the math anyway.
Would that be *too* high in combination with other dodge boosts?
R5 Gem = 10%, base = 10%, LR R3 50%, Parry / TEM 4%, EM R3 22%... that would be 96% dodge without any other buffs. BUT that's a hit to damage (TEM), and repeatedly refreshing Evasive Maneuvers.
Or Fluidity would push it higher too, haven't done the math on that.
Bearing in mind also, that most folks may not bother getting uber ranked mods.
I have a few R7s from lockboxes, but I haven't bothered making or buying more.
I typically find R5 to be "enough" for me for most 40s.... but I have altitis like crazy too.
One thing I did notice is how you just buffed MD.
Do you realise that with this new gear you can get AO's down to 20 seconds with r9's and seeing as with everything, you can already get it to 20 seconds on live I believe with this new gear it will be fairly easy to get it to or close to 15 seconds. This means that you'll be able to rotate MD's to keep it up 24/7. Yes that's right you'll be able to get 250% dodge chance and 90% avoidance 24/7 without even needing something like revitalise. Kinda funny if you ask me.
ALSO
'Crashing Wave Kick: Ebb and Flow: This advantage now grants 1% Dodge per stack. '
Was this REALLY needed? I thought the stacks go when you dodge an attack. Unless you are versing gravitar who doesn't hit very often you'll probably find that you dodge the '1 damage' instead of the '1000 damage' which doesn't really make it sound like this was something that was needed. 0.o Ah well, they are both considered 'the pointless skills' in the long list of other skills that are much worse that the cheesy usual stuff.
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If it didn't suffer from Diminishing Returns, 18 + 18 = 36% Dodge, so LR would get up to 86% Dodge Chance, so the question would be, would that be to high, especially when one could be LR, slot those, and then use EM.
If you start slotting all dodge you'll no longer have all avoidance meaning that you wont be as high in that area, although you probably still have about 70%.
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On Live I have both AOs at 33 Seconds. One lasts for 15 seconds and the other 18 seconds. So can already keep AOs perma. As for ADs...I know personally, I don't find MD to be as effective as other players say it is and still find myself healing.
well said smackwell
the way i understand it, dodging is SUPPOSED to be a chore. the light dodge you get from the offensive passives is supposed to be slight damage reduction, not be able to tank everything that people build pure tank otherwise to take on. Melee DPS though needs to be looked at[come completely and entirely buffed to be able to compete with ranged builds dps], but that's a different task ad a different time.
Re-read the patch notes they have nerfed Justice Gear to give you what regular level 40 mods give you with the exception of the overlooked mods.
Although, it is fully possible to get Active offenses/defenses/both down to 20 seconds and even 'perma' ES/MD yourself on Live without the use of revitalize. The new justice utility gear gives less cooldown/costdiscount than legion gear of the same caliber.
o.O Where did I ever say nerf AOs?
In your IMAGINAAAAAATION
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Well, I do fully admit to thinking Quarry needed nerfed or LR buffed.
Would actually love love LOVE to beable to get my AO down to 15 seconds! Need to work for it and totally gear up for it? OKAY! But if I was able to get my AO down to 15 seconds, I could then pick another theme power
Thundering Kicks + Lock and Load with Two Smoking Barrels advantage..GO!
^ I used to have a build which incorporated that on Bionic Bullet before I decided to go more ranged than melee, it was a fantastic combo, especially with INT
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I know for a fact that the additive damage bonus is removed. The Critical Chance bonus is extremely hard to test.
At least we can still put an hour of shredded on mobs
Used to have it, on a not really planned out build, untill I realized, "Oh hey! Only need the one single target attack, and it'll allow me to use more AOs!"
So then I switched to MA EB for the martial arts fix.
I would think *not sure* the idea is to use Lock N Load -> Munition Attacks -> Thunder Kicks for dodge bonus and lower the recharge on Lock N Load -> Repeat.
^ This. I used Thundering for when it went into CD mode :biggrin:
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Wah? Enlighten me please wise Ayonachan!
Just because the crit bonus is on the tool-tip doesn't mean it doesnt have a -critchance for melee tag. Cost reduction is something you can test though~
You can apply a theoretically endless shredded debuff duration on mobs on, both, live and pts. The advantage on shred and the underused power known as Viper's Fangs is the easiest way to apply said debuff. Nothing too special or broken about it since it is only duration which is increased...still 525600 minutes(that would be 2628000 procs of shredded debuff not including the time lost from activation and execution) of shredded debuff on any given mob is a bit 'op' then again if the mob can live for the amount of time it took to stack said debuff that high then the mob in question is the 'op' part...
I hope someone gets the reference..I really do...partly because I'm now singing it..
Quarry R3 w/ Heroic Dodge/Avoid Gear (R5s)
31% dodge chance
w/ Evasive Maneuvers R2 w/Advantage: 49% (R2 now gives 18% as opposed to 20%)
Lightning Reflexes R3 w/ Blue Dodge/Avoid Gear (I dropped the ball on this one, sorry people)
67.8% dodge chance (60% base)
w/ Concentrated Lead Tempest: 83%
Specialist confirmed for awesome.
Night Warrior w/ Heroic Dodge/Avoid Gear (R5s)
38% dodge chance
Night Warrior w/ Legion Dodge/Dodge/Avoid Gear (R5s, R4 Avoid)
44% dodge chance
All in all, I'd say the numbers feel comfortable. BCRs will still fire off at reasonable rates for dodge-based passives.
However...
Defiance w/ Heroic Dodge/Avoid Gear (R4s)
17.8% dodge chance
Presumably any other passive that doesn't have dodge built in too. Mmmmm...
Oh, and one more thing that I need to mention before I have to go! I don't think it's massive dodge/avoid that's the MAIN problem. It's the massive healing people are capable of that make the game too easy. A Hybrid with 10 Pre can heal 1.2k with Conviction and crit for potentially 2.4k. This isn't so bad, however, because that's just 10 Pre and a hefty spike or a good heal debuff'll still kill the hybrid... however, stack Bonus Healing, Pre, AoPM, and various specs along with craptons of Con, along with dodge/avoid gear (on Live, not here) and you can survive anything. I once saw someone facetank Cybermind's virus rain with BUBBLES while the rest of the team but myself died. Not to mention the PvP horror stories of too much healing...
Oh, and Ascension also grants a big healing bonus.
Just something to keep an eye on. HINT HINT HINT.
What exactly am I missing? Now I might not have payed attention enough, but I don't recall my Viper's Fang using hero keeping the shredded debuff on the target without refreshing it, but maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention.
Had the duration at 3 hours once on Kigatilik.
I guess if I stopped using Tiger's Bite I might have noticed LOL!
Sooo good!
With that said, I hope the devs have the decency to do the the following when this whole thing goes live:
1) Free retcon
2) Unbind Legion gear
3) Free mod removals for so many days
At least give us the opportunity to earn our globals back so we can replace what we need to.
At the most I can only see point 1 being a possibility. Unbinding Legion Gear and free mod removals...I cannot see that happening ever, but I could be wrong.
I mean they unbound Legacy Devices right?
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Yes, they did. As much as Legion's Breastplate of Agility and Gambler mods (high rank) cost, it would be of extremely poor taste to tell players to "suck it up" with their losses due to these changes. I currently have 3 toons sporting such gear/mods, and at least 2 will need complete revamps. That's like 9-10k worth of globals, and that may even be low-balling it.
I don't recall 100%, but I can swear Quarry hit 50% With R3 and the right gear. Also, don't underestimate those who prefer more damage over more dodge.
Really, I only took Quarry because the dodge was better than LR, the avoidance was less, but not so much less for to really notice the difference, while the damage was quite a bit more.
Quarry also has other things going for it, the +INT/EGO. It's been lowered too, but it's just not something I would discount just yet.
Quarry Rank 3 with Legion's Breastplate of Agility (2 rank 9 Gambler's) = 38% dodge on PTS right now. On live it's 74%. That's almost 50% less. Definitely enough that some, like myself, will feel forced to go with an alternative. If the changes weren't so drastic, I could see Cryptic saying it's not enough to ruin one's gameplay, so reimbursement is not necessary. That isn't the case with these changes. They're rather huge for some of us, and that's not an over exaggeration. Just look at the numbers.
It's still the most defensive of the offensive passives, by a huge margin.
People that were using it in lieu of LR, yeah. I can see you wanting to switch.
But people that are using it as an Offensive Passive with damage versatility and good defenses, they should still be okay.
Though they may want to look at re-implementing a part of the "charge time scales dodge chance" thing that they dropped with On Alert.
Maybe with something like "attacks that take over 2 seconds to charge grant you 1.5x your listed dodge chance". So a dodge of 30% becomes 45%. With no penalty to dodge on fast attacks.
It allows dodge gear/passives to still help against higher-hitting PvE content, without making dodge gear a no-brainer for everyone, and without making Quarry stronger than LR at LR's proscribed job.
I'm making this up off the top of my head, so the numbers probably need to be tweaked.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
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