Fair: Everyone has the same choices and opportunities.
Unfair: People do not have same choices and opportunities.
Balanced: All choices have similar levels of benefit.
Unbalanced: Different choices have significantly different levels of benefit.
Those ideas can combine in four ways.
Right now, I would say CO powers are Fair, but Unbalanced.
Is it fair that people who want to play the game as intended have to randomly deal with being gimped? Remember, you have to analyze fairness within the context of the game.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Is it fair that people who want to play the game as intended have to randomly deal with being gimped? Remember, you have to analyze fairness within the context of the game.
Define "as intended", please.
Like, in terms of what you would consider "acceptable" power choices/combinations.
I've seen this said many times before as an argument against balance.. and I'm going to go ahead and be sarcastic.
Oh no! You mean the power sets might be turned into a collection of things that you click to either deal damage, reduce incoming damage, or heal yourself? How terrible that would be!
Oh wait, that's what we have right now, with the only things really differentiating them being their graphics, as well as a few "mechanics" that really just require you to take power X if you want to use power Z to its fullest. And of course knocks, the one shining angel of this games systems.
Many people seem to think that balancing the powers means something like "Okay... everything applies trauma and does the same amount of damage". Sure, that's one way to do it, but it's not the only way, and it's not the best way. The problem is that the best way requires creativity and inovation... and I'd be surprised if anyone on the payroll was willing to waste those things on this game anymore.[/color]
A little different than that. Instead of "everything applies trauma" it's more like, "every set can apply trauma."
Also note, I'm not against a homogenized powerset game. I didn't say it as an argument against balance. Basically all I'm saying is that every set would have similar powers to each other. Like, there wouldn't be the difference between that Martial Arts dragon punch thing that does much more DPS than Haymaker. At the end of the day, tap for tap or charge for charge, the powers would do the same DPS at the exact same energy cost. It's a reskin of another power, with adequate tweaks (half the charge time, half the damage, etc.) and a different animation just for looks to tie it into the flavor of the other set.
It all comes down to each set having similar attacks that will do similar damage so there's no disparity between sets, and less frankenbuilds. The end goal would be to go out-of-set if it goes along with your theme (like doing fire and ice powers, or a dragon man that fights with claws but can also breathe fire), as opposed to having a Might character that doesn't take Haymaker and instead takes the dragon punch because it does more damage. Why can't archery have a maintained single target arrow volley that works just like Two Gun Mojo? Why can't the Fire powerset have a gigantic fireball that wrecks everything in its path like Force Cascade?
I don't see anything in there about "If the hero you want to be happens to have certain powers, you will be weaker than others... because".
Okay.
Most people, when they say "make the game balanced", end up meaning "flatten the stuff I don't like." (Look at Jay's OP and damned-near every post in Hero Games, including some of your own that may have been less-serious than I originally thought)
Especially when they start throwing around the "as intended" phrase. Usually coupled with rants about people who mix powersets and then some drivel about ninjas or clowns or furries or demons or soldiers or aliens or whatever trope they hate.
Which, if that philosophy is followed, just then ends up with the opposite problem a bit later.
I'd gladly sacrifice some mechanical uniqueness (since we likely aren't going to get divergent mechanics that end up equally-balanced) for greater ease of thematic choices.
Teleport is one of the keys to getting ~3000Q per 4 mins... just saying
Also, the game cannot possibly be balanced by a 1-man balance team. There's just too many possible scenarios to account for and too many powers that follow their own rules.
I don't think homogenization is needed. Each framework has something that makes them special. I think that should remain.
For reference.
That's all well and good, but I think that was the intent from the get-go. It's hard to balance things like this when there's so much different math involved. MMOs will never have any kind of balance when they have diversity.
Smackwell forgive the political reference.. not meant to incite a political discussion.
By your definition of fair, homosexuals have the right to marry.. as long as they marry the opposite sex. That is a very unhappy marriage any way you look at it and defeats the purpose of marriage (creating lasting bonds to the benefit of civilization).
In that same vein, being told "you have choices" is bunk without the validity of both choices.
I'm just saying that's manageable balance. Everyone can marry everyone, no exceptions. That's the only way you can have balance, especially in a game with so many powersets and so many factors. There's just so much math to test, and then to put it all into practice... inconceivable!
Honestly, this game will never have balance (good or bad, I'm on the fence really, never been a powergamer here). It's just not possible, not even with a gigantic development team.
I'd gladly sacrifice some mechanical uniqueness (since we likely aren't going to get divergent mechanics that end up equally-balanced) for greater ease of thematic choices.
Gamehobo, you are mixing up my responses with Smack's.
I agree that powers could be balanced much better. Yes.
Again, fairness isn't my problem.
Using the gay marriage example:
It is fair for me to marry a guy, just like it is fair for a woman to marry a guy.
On the other hand, marriage isn't always balanced--I married a nice guy and all (he's a chef), but I didn't get to marry, say Vin Diesel.
Teleport is one of the keys to getting ~3000Q per 4 mins... just saying
Also, the game cannot possibly be balanced by a 1-man balance team. There's just too many possible scenarios to account for and too many powers that follow their own rules.
I don't buy this. I've seen folks say this before, and I just don't see it. I don't see this complicated web of interacting effects that people try to make the freeform system out to be. The majority of the powers in it amount to "push this button to do damage". Here and there you have power X somehow modify Power Y, but it's never in some wild and crazy way... usually it's "makes it do 15% more damage".
"It's too complicated" isn't really an excuse they can use... and to be fair, they've never tried to use it as an excuse, so they quite possibly don't believe that either.a
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Player input can only effect the game once the developers make the decision about which input from which players they're going to implement. It's not the players' fault that some of them had bad ideas... it's the developers fault for implementing those bad ideas rather than the good ones ( and some of the bad ideas never had any origin from players to begin with ).
Other than that, I agree with the opinions presented in your post... well, other than the more restricted freeform system being better, freeform should be as freeform as can be![/COLOR]
Post edited by kaiserin#0958 on
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
The game needs a way to make taking "redundant" attacks worth the opportunity cost of not taking another buff.
Or some other sort of mechanic to make sinking almost a third/a quarter (depending on setup) of your available powers into a single-target attack chain worthwhile. (like with the Dragon's Claws example).
Then again, soft cooldowns (using a combo to enable a special attack, needing to stack a buff for full effectiveness or building up a meter) are both more fluid and less punishing in an action-based game than hard cooldowns that lock out almost a quarter of your build because someone who wasn't foolish enough to go melee knocked/rooted/flew away from you. (I'm counting NPC enemies in this too. Damned grenadiers/birds...)
Cooldowns on melee powers' energy-building heavy-hitters were part of what sparked the melee pass. If they'd made taking more low-tier attacks worthwhile and gone with soft cooldowns, we might've avoided the "spam DC/DW/Massacre/Skewer/Haymaker tap/DU" melee game we have now.
Your tier 1/character creation attack should be its own slot, IMO, right alongside the energy builder. Then take the synergy some of them have and build on it to make it worthwhile. And maybe a dedicated "passive" slot.
Power creep? Yeah. But it's diminished a bit by action economy. Taking two buffs that don't require hitting the target and an attack is always going to be more powerful than taking three attacks. You kind of have to rig the deck in the additional attacks' favor to get people to take them.
All of the above's more an issue for melee, though.
To put things forward from my experience during the beta, while people complain about Force Cascade, Force Cascade is actually one of the few powers left that still operate under those original designs. In all seriousness, as much as people would probably disagree, Champions needs to have it's power system redesigned from the ground up. This free flowing power system does not promote diversity. The newest powers introduced have been substantially stronger than many of the original powers, dwarfing any need to actually get said powers. I also would say the power tray should have been limited to 7+ passive, and remove the stupid **** toggles. If they really want to boost the damage versus cost, then they should do it, not put in an option that isn't really an option.
Power creep in Champions has been terrible. It isn't just bad, it's really bad. People are trying to ignore it and wave a hand on how it isn't a big deal, but it is. The games too easy. And when it's too easy people blast through content too fast, and since the game doesn't provide anything alternative to do at the end, it offers little replay value. Concepts are thrown out the window in favor of the best powers in slot, whether people care to admit it or not. A few take some chump powers, but that really does ignore the rest, especially since many builds don't need all 14 powers (as Champions was originally designed to operate with only 7 powers and one passive) so player builds often have excess powers they only use sometimes.
Hell back in beta we could choose multiple energy builders for different builds for those of us who actually wanted to have builds for separate purposes and there had to be a lot of thought put into them, unlike now where it's just pick the best in slot and be done with it.
As far as players not influencing balance in this game, that's sadly untrue. The devs have caved to the player base since beta on every balance concern and issue. I've watched, since beta, all these things that got implemented which resulted in a game that has progressively gotten easier with more OP powers.
Oh and travel powers were more in depth and expanded in the beta to.
If "you don't keep moving at full speed if you just want to autorun" makes it a power bad for travel, then Super Jump and Swinging both suck pretty bad, too, right?
Swinging and Super Jump are Fun. They are interactive. TP is more conceptual because it doesn't actually work like TP, it works like spirit/phased flight. Except you fall out of it.
It's like a cooldown power - you can't leave it on and go pee, but you're also not doing anything proactive.
But in combat? It's cheap as hell. You can move, not be hit (sorta), become invisible, and have absolute control of your movement, and when things get hairy, you poof away with minimal consequence and almost no need for skill or forethought. It's a better active offense than most active offenses.
Jay - because due to our open system, the only way to balance all the powers one might potentially take is to make them all function the same - this eliminates the diversity in function. Is it possible to absolutely balance for every play-style and power combination while still retaining utmost freedom and individual powers' characteristics? Possibly. But I don't think human devs can do it, for one thing, and for two, it also kills the tiered hero aspects - a street sweeper has no business battling gods, and conversely, a cosmic should be able to wipe the floor with trash. Such disparity in ability demonstrated between Superman and The Cat is only possible in an unbalanced system.
edit to add:
For the record, I do believe our systems are completely broken and need to be redone from the ground up from head to toe - our stats are meaningless, our gear is broken, our powers are pretty but completely inconsistent, and spec trees make the rest of the game nearly redundant. I'm not saying things should stay as they are or that anything should be as ridiculously imbalanced as CO, I'm just saying that things should not be balanced.
I don't buy this. I've seen folks say this before, and I just don't see it. I don't see this complicated web of interacting effects that people try to make the freeform system out to be. The majority of the powers in it amount to "push this button to do damage". Here and there you have power X somehow modify Power Y, but it's never in some wild and crazy way... usually it's "makes it do 15% more damage".
"It's too complicated" isn't really an excuse they can use... and to be fair, they've never tried to use it as an excuse, so they quite possibly don't believe that either.a
That's a false premise. The majority of powers in the top end of FFs are more like "push this button with this button and this button to achieve god mode/permastealth/perma 100% dodge/outheal incoming damage". DPS comes second.
Also, the outlying synergies are not the ones that "makes X do 15% more damage"
Nanobot Swarm enables a re-use of a power. Not "makes it do 15% more damage"
Radiance enables self-targeting with energy builder. Used with Revitalize spec it allows fast cycling of cooldowns. Also not "makes it do 15% more damage"
Gas Pellets and Dino devices with AoED is also not "makes it do 15% more damage"
NPG and Eruption rotations? Also nothing to do with 15% more damage.
FF is about how many things your character can do at the same time, not how much damage it does. It is strong because you can have HoTs ticking, uber damage resistance buffs running while putting out consistent damage and being able to pop insta cast bursts of healing or damage as needed.
Such disparity in ability demonstrated between Superman and The Cat is only possible in an unbalanced system.
This SHOULD be a strength in Champions Online that would be a weakness in other IPs. It seems that all the things that SHOULD help the superhero genre be translated into a video game are suck.
One player wants to play as pistol whip girl, the IP allows for that to be as viable as Electroman.
The rules character balance should be based on the Level and Gear of character. That's one of the basis of Role-Play Games.
- -
Why play Phoenix on Marvel Heroes if you have to compare yourself to Squirrel Girl?
or
Would you rather play Sidekicks Universe Online?
OR you should be able to come to Champions Online and create your own identity. Maybe you are a Jack of All trades and in this universe that means you have alot of mediocre powers. Maybe you're master of one and are an awesome weilder of Fire powers. But to claim that the rules of THIS lore should be governed by build type makes no logical sense.
The problem is that there isn't really a fair way to account for every power combination. For instance, how much value/cost do you place on the additional effects of a power? Let's say you set up a scheme where a power's cost is based on its damage, range, activation time, recharge time, and so on. How do you figure out how much the damage type figures into this? What about other effects, like chance to fear or chance to apply clinging flames?
I mean, negative ions is totally worthless unless you take powers to exploit that application, so would the the ability to apply negative ions make a power cheaper, if it's not taken in conjunction w/ other powers to exploit that? If you take a passive that boosts certain damage types, but then take a power of a type that isn't boosted, should said power cost less for you? Is fear more valuable than knockback, or more? If I take aspect of the infernal, should every power that applies deadly poison now cost more for me?
It just becomes a cumbersome mess, and like in comics, there perhaps should be a tiered system when it comes to PvP. I mean, as cool as Batman may be, he kinda lost out on the superpowered lottery when compared to superman or the martian manhunter. Yeah, the comics make a big deal about him competing on their level, but he really doesn't.
If this were a PnP game, the GM could accommodate every build, tailor the experience to them, and veto certain builds that were just put together to be as powerful as possible... here, that isn't an option.
I mean, I suppose they could go back and start setting arbitrary limitations - like you need at least 5 other force powers to get force geyser and cascade, or have really powerful attacks impose a limitation on what TPs could be used right after they are used - like you can't use teleport for 10 seconds after firing off a force cascade or gigabolt, but that just punishes people that take these really powerful attacks because they genuinely fit their concept.
And this last part is what bothers me the most. It's pretty easy to tell when someone takes a combinations of powers that form a cohesive build, but when someone simply cherrypicks their powers to be as effective as possible, then things get frustrating.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
If this were a PnP game, the GM could accommodate every build, tailor the experience to them, and veto certain builds that were just put together to be as powerful as possible... here, that isn't an option.
Isn't it? How is this not a prioritized responsibility being demanded by players? It's a right, not a privilege.
Isn't it? How is this not a prioritized responsibility being demanded by players? It's a right, not a privilege.
A prioritized responsibility to do what? Get Cryptic to play GM and restrict certain builds if they felt those builds were inappropriate for the game? Say goodbye to freeform and "be the hero you want to be" if that's the case. What works for a controlled PnP campaign doesn't automatically apply to MMORPGs or even RPGs in general.
That's a false premise. The majority of powers in the top end of FFs are more like "push this button with this button and this button to achieve god mode/permastealth/perma 100% dodge/outheal incoming damage". DPS comes second.
Also, the outlying synergies are not the ones that "makes X do 15% more damage"
Nanobot Swarm enables a re-use of a power. Not "makes it do 15% more damage"
Radiance enables self-targeting with energy builder. Used with Revitalize spec it allows fast cycling of cooldowns. Also not "makes it do 15% more damage"
Gas Pellets and Dino devices with AoED is also not "makes it do 15% more damage"
NPG and Eruption rotations? Also nothing to do with 15% more damage.
FF is about how many things your character can do at the same time, not how much damage it does. It is strong because you can have HoTs ticking, uber damage resistance buffs running while putting out consistent damage and being able to pop insta cast bursts of healing or damage as needed.
Now, see how easy it was to clearly explain what all those powers do and how they interact? So... where's all this complicated mystery that makes balance impossible to achieve?
The problem is that there isn't really a fair way to account for every power combination [...]
There actually is, so that's not actually a problem. There aren't actually that many power combinations that present a problem, and of the ones there are the effects are predictable and their effect on a character's power level easily gauged... after all, players have been doing this for years.
Isn't it? How is this not a prioritized responsibility being demanded by players? It's a right, not a privilege.
...um... i don't think anyone is demanding that GMs get to tell us how we can and cannot build. Primarily because... you know... from how they've treated the power set... the first thing they would probably say is "NO TELEPATHS".
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
There actually is, so that's not actually a problem. There aren't actually that many power combinations that present a problem, and of the ones there are the effects are predictable and their effect on a character's power level easily gauged... after all, players have been doing this for years.
So what's your solution?
The one that comes to mind is to deny such power combinations to be used and boom instant balance.
You and I both know that it's a stupid solution for obvious reasons, so what's next? Nerf powers on an individual basis? We all know that the majority of the time, power combos are the real issue, so this is hardly a solution.
There's never going to be an ideal balance amongst builds, just accept it.
A prioritized responsibility to do what? Get Cryptic to play GM and restrict certain builds if they felt those builds were inappropriate for the game? Say goodbye to freeform and "be the hero you want to be" if that's the case. What works for a controlled PnP campaign doesn't automatically apply to MMORPGs or even RPGs in general.
The code is the game-master. The code can decide what builds are and are not allowed.
As soon as the game master changes laws, none of those changes exist in a bubble. But the changes came and keep coming.. the problem used to be a crack in the dam, but now no little Dutch boy can plug them.
Ame was in charge of the system at one time.. but the forumites did not take their responsibility seriously and encouraged such great powers as Incapacitates.
What to do now? I don't know.. I am willing to hear what current players think.
Some say do nothing, which I don't agree with.
But maybe there are good ideas they CAN do from the foundation level (not powers) to improve the game experience.
I just don't expect them to. I just wanted to understand what the current playerbase thought since the players here now are not the players here back when.
...um... i don't think anyone is demanding that GMs get to tell us how we can and cannot build. Primarily because... you know... from how they've treated the power set... the first thing they would probably say is "NO TELEPATHS".
The code is the game-master. The code can decide what builds are and are not allowed.
As soon as the game master changes laws, none of those changes exist in a bubble. But the changes came and keep coming.. the problem used to be a crack in the dam, but now no little Dutch boy can plug them.
You realize that denying players the freedom to use such builds goes against the very concept of freeform right?
Ame was in charge of the system at one time.. but the forumites did not take their responsibility seriously and encouraged such great powers as Incapacitates.
So it's the forumites' fault now for imbalance. Way to grasp for straws.
Since there's only the two major comic book brands, I'll have to use their characters in examples.
Is it fair that Daredevil cannot go toe-to-toe with say.....Solomon Grundy?
Or that Batroc the Leaper has absolutely no chance against Superman?
How about if Aquaman had to fight Juggernaut or the Hulk?
No, it's not fair. But what those heroes would end up doing is creatively using their powers to gain a unique advantage to best their foes. Well. In Aquaman's case, anyway. Superman is just hax.
Do you have anything at all like that with a freeform character? Not unless you choose to. Seems to me there's pretty much a choice few powers to pick from if you want your character to be any decent at all, and most certainly the FotM powers for PvP builds.
So the question becomes not "Should Games be Fair" but "What -is- Fair?"
Given the examples above...and the other examples which are provided in the comic book genre(which this game is based heavily upon, right?)........sure it's fair. After all, not everyone can be the golden god that can solo Therakiel or Gravitar.
Except everyone can, if they pick the "right" powers.
So what to do to "balance" the game? Bring every other "not right" power up to those levels? Bring those "god-mode" powers down a few notches? Or do you realize that, as stated above....not every comic book character should be able to take down Galactus and let those that are happy playing "flawed and imperfect" characters play their own game?
Oh snip* Energy Maintenance has become a joke in champions online, making REC and END lose quite alot of usefulness compared to other stats. Should they review the energy cost/energy return system?
+Offense does much less than +Crits but they compete for the same gear slot. Should they remove the Diminishing Returns on +Offense or lower maximum crit chance/severity?
+Dodge does much more mitigation than +Defense.. both do much more that +CrowdControlResist yet they compete for the same gear slot.
Nobody wants to talk about these? :biggrin:
END I think is pretty self-explanatory, more energy right? Yoohoo! But REC on other hand, doesn't really help me build my energy to equilibrium WITHOUT USING THE ENERGY BUILDER. I've actually had moments where my energy is 0 and it wouldn't go back up without using the energy builder. I wish having REC as superstat would give the same benefits as the Support role does, then I would take REC seriously. Nowadays you can have INT with Molecular self-assembly and conviction as a heal. Your energy will be full all times.
Unless you're talking about REC and END as your PRIMARY SUPERSTAT. Rarely I would have these as my main superstats, because there are just other primary superstats that are far more useful. REC and END would be my secondary stats, to help me charge up high-energy attacks, nothing more really.
Crowd Control resistance and CC strenght = Broken now, right? As far the CC mods go, I mean.
Also, I think they should just ditch the Cryptic math they are using for Passives and other stats, things would be so much depressing when you find out that your rank 3 Electric Form buffs your damage by 19% at lvl 40. Or your 100% character defense actually is 40%-50%. Or your 400-800 Offense that gives 40% damage boost, actually gives you 2%.
Crit Chance, Dodge and Avoidance seems like the only numbers that are pretty accurate.
So it's the forumites' fault now for imbalance. Way to grasp for straws.
There is enough fault to go around in many cases. And yes, I am saying people on the forums are a (perhaps the most substantial) driving force to the bias shown in Champions Online. The devs had an even greater requirement of editing, but nonetheless it became clear when powers WERE being "reviewed" the forum's focus was not on balance.
Since there's only the two major comic book brands, I'll have to use their characters in examples.
The Champions IP does not need to adhere to other IPs "rules". As I stated earlier.. this should have been a strength of the IP. The governing factor on how builds work should be based on GAME design, not COMIC design. In any roleplaying game a character's strengths come from their Experience and Gear.
END I think is pretty self-explanatory, more energy right? Yoohoo! But REC on other hand, doesn't really help me build my energy to equilibrium WITHOUT USING THE ENERGY BUILDER. I've actually had moments where my energy is 0 and it wouldn't go back up without using the energy builder. I wish having REC as superstat would give the same benefits as the Support role does, then I would take REC seriously. Nowadays you can have INT with Molecular self-assembly and conviction as a heal. Your energy will be full all times.
There are plenty of ways to have full energy at all times.. the least common of which is stacking REC.
Unless you're talking about REC and END as your PRIMARY SUPERSTAT. Rarely I would have these as my main superstats, because there are just other primary superstats that are far more useful. REC and END would be my secondary stats, to help me charge up high-energy attacks, nothing more really.
My supergroup DE:LTA was a great experiment in stacking high levels of single stats (770 INT on my character for instance). Con, Rec, and End had many problems with the way the game currently treats stats. All stats should provide fair value.
Crowd Control resistance and CC strenght = Broken now, right? As far the CC mods go, I mean.
I invested in CC Resistance with Legion's Gear. It does nothing to the defense of Crowd Control (both PvE Crowd Control and PvP Crowd Control.. please note that the two are completely different systems). Also when they removed Knock Resistance from this slot it created a system where Knock is better Crowd Control than actual Crowd Control.
Even if it did offer crowd control resistance as advertised, I find it hard to believe that being hold immune is as valuable as defense. Your Active Offenses provide free break-free. Your Active Defenses provide defense to take a hit (and hit points aid in break-free). If CCResist gear were the ONLY way to resist holds i could see it being valuable. But as with any economy, it cannot and does not exist in a bubble. So unless any discussion is comprehensive then it can only manage the symptoms while ignoring the disease.
Also, I think they should just ditch the Cryptic math they are using for Passives and other stats, things would be so much depressing when you find out that your rank 3 Electric Form buffs your damage by 19% at lvl 40. Or your 100% character defense actually is 40%-50%. Or your 400-800 Offense that gives 40% damage boost, actually gives you 2%.
Crit Chance, Dodge and Avoidance seems like the only numbers that are pretty accurate.
There is enough fault to go around in many cases. And yes, I am saying people on the forums are a (perhaps the most substantial) driving force to the bias shown in Champions Online.
Not sure that I can agree. I've seen too few instances of developers paying significant attention to forum input to believe this.
I disagree. Governance is not against the freeform system.
Governance is against the freeform system if it decides to do things to it to make it the opposite of a freeform system. What you're advocating is making the freeform system something other than freeform. What you want to do is to deny people the right to use a build that they want just to adhere to your own moral standards on what makes a "legit" build.
There is enough fault to go around in many cases. And yes, I am saying people on the forums are a (perhaps the most substantial) driving force to the bias shown in Champions Online. The devs had an even greater requirement of editing, but nonetheless it became clear when powers WERE being "reviewed" the forum's focus was not on balance.
Because Cryptic has a remarkable track record of listening to player input right? Clearly players on the forums haven't been trying hard enough with feedback these past 3 years. :rolleyes:
Is it fair that Daredevil cannot go toe-to-toe with say.....Solomon Grundy?
Or that Batroc the Leaper has absolutely no chance against Superman?
How about if Aquaman had to fight Juggernaut or the Hulk?
Be done with this comic book arguments for defending this game pathetic lack of any semblance of balance, people.
It isn't even funny.
Because not sure if anybody noticed that in CO the Punisher or generic dual blade ninja actually IS more powerful than Hulk or Superman.
Yes, here Daredevil can go toe-to-toe with Hulk and he's actually the stronger one.
Surely it's because we are all given kryptonite bullets and dual blades made of finest unobtainium.
:biggrin:
So much about this argument of staying true to the genre. As if CO were such game.
It doesn't matter, which genre. CO is a game first , and then is about superheroes. And it fails as a game in this department.
And this game is in need of any semblance of balance.
Even if it had to be done brutally and by any means necessary, no matter how many builds would be butchered in the process.
Because this game died because of lack of even slightest balance.
Lack of balance murdered PvP - most of the people doesn't really want to sacrifice their theme, so they have nothing to do in PvP.
Lack of balance murdered PvE as well - because it is impossible to create content challenging for anyone when we have at least 3 "power tiers" - archetypes, theme driven freeforms, pure powergame freeforms (though even theme freeforms can vastly vary in their effectiveness) - each of those "tiers" having different level of power.
So what remains with no competitive PvP and PvE? A dressing game?
I know that perfect balance in MMO is impossible, but at least games should try to achieve it. CO doesn't even try at least from On Alert.
This is also another reason why it failed so miserably as a game and has so few players.
Right now it isn't "Be the hero you want to be" but "Be the hero you want to be, but only if it includes few must-have combos, otherwise be the gimped you want to be".
So much about customisation.
People are in fear of powerset homogenisation, but given CO state homogenisation would made at least diversity in themes possible.
Answer yourself, how many builds here has mandatory Quarry on physical damage dealers (and even tanks, though it was supposed to be offensive passive) and uses Masterful Dodge+BCR+Conviction combo for survival.
This is how looks diversity in CO. Now.
Lack of balance murdered PvP - most of the people doesn't really want to sacrifice their theme, so they have nothing to do in PvP.
I disagree. PVP is a highly competetive gamemode. You will unsuprisingly find people who will make powerful builds to stay at their competetive best. If someone doesn't want to adapt to PVP's metagame for the sake of their theme then they should expect to have a higher risk of losing or just stay away altogether if they can't handle consistent losing streaks.
Lack of balance murdered PvE as well - because it is impossible to create content challenging for anyone when we have at least 3 "power tiers" - archetypes, theme driven freeforms, pure powergame freeforms (though even theme freeforms can vastly vary in their effectiveness) - each of those "tiers" having different level of power.
That problem lies in Cryptic's inability to make Elite difficulty provide an actual challenge as expected of the term "Elite". Elite difficulty should cater to the players who make pure "powergame" freeforms. Apparently it doesn't currently because people are able to solo Elite mode lairs.
I know that perfect balance in MMO is impossible, but at least games should try to achieve it. CO doesn't even try at least from On Alert.
This is also another reason why it failed so miserably as a game and has so few players
How many other MMORPGs out there in the market have a system as dynamic as Cryptic's freeform system and has managed to pull off balance better?
I disagree. PVP is a highly competetive gamemode. You will unsuprisingly find people who will make powerful builds to stay at their competetive best. If someone doesn't want to adapt to PVP's metagame for the sake of their theme then they should expect to have a higher risk of losing or just stay away altogether if they can't handle consistent losing streaks.
Except not.
EVERY powerset should offer exactly the same possibility for powerbuilding.
If player wants cherry-picking powers, then should be able to do it even if staying within character theme.
Not by making frankenstein monsters.
You can't handwave game inability to provide complete powersets with this way of thinking.
Someone please convince me that this isn't a contradictive statement.
Yes, power level homogenisation DO creates diversity in themes of character builds.
If every powerset would contain attacks comparable to TMG, Force Cascade or Epidemic, then there would be at least reason to stay within powerset without sacrificing your power.
Defend it as hard as you'd like, but bare truth is - CO is broken and lacking in this department. Badly.
That problem lies in Cryptic's inability to make Elite difficulty provide an actual challenge as expected of the term "Elite". Elite difficulty should cater to the players who make pure "powergame" freeforms. Apparently it doesn't currently because people are able to solo Elite mode lairs.
No. Players should NOT be forced to sacrifice their theme to participate in higher level of content.
Not in the game which is advertised as a game letting you play your theme hero.
And effect can be clearly seen.
Especially with Cryptic attitude - "we don't do something for only few players, it isn't profitable enough" - according to it because fewer players uses powerbuilds, we have no emphasis on pvp or challenging content.
And we have also next to none player retention.
How many other MMORPGs out there in the market have a system as dynamic as Cryptic's freeform system and has managed to pull off balance better?
Explain me, what kind of balance Cryptic actually achieved?
This one when you can tank better with offensive passive than with few of dedicated ones?
Or this one when you can play through all the game spamming one starter dual guns maintain, because no higher tier abilities are even close in DPS?
I can't believe that anyone sane can defend current situation, because it's a bad comedy.
I should not be forced to ditch Regen, because other passives (and not even defensive ones) are better for tanking, otherwise I'm underperforming. I should have exactly the same level of performance as any other tank with their tanking passives (and I mean tanking passives, Quarry and AoPM should NOT be in any circumstances more efficient in tanking than dedicated defensive passives).
And frankly, I should also not be forced to stack one stat only to counter a travel power which is an active defence, a pretty good one as well.
And finally, never, ever, player in hybrid role should be a better tank than player in dedicated tanking role.
This system is broken beyond any hope.
Besides, it's hardly competitive - with CO way of having mandatory OP powers a 10 years old can make a powerbuild which will be almost the same as powerbuilds of other ten players (and very diverse to boot).
Because Cryptic has a remarkable track record of listening to player input right? Clearly players on the forums haven't been trying hard enough with feedback these past 3 years. :rolleyes:
I am the type to go back and actually cite sources if needed. But I will stop short and simply say, devs didn't always have a deaf ear to the forums. In fact the first year of the game, the game mechanics were formed almost exclusively by the players.
I cite for, the maximum effect, the case of CO Forum vs Crowd Control. Forums won. Crowd Control lost. The ramifications were felt not only in debuffing/telepathy builds but in melee viability in PvP, Gear viability, and the new Specializations system. The end result, a major game mechanic is a Cluster****. All for the hate of one 2 point advantage
This is one cited example, but there are many other cases where the Forum clamored for a change that decidedly was bias and completely against the health of game balance. If you require proof it will be harder to find because the forums have since been changed, making research more difficult.. but game veterans understand this to be true.
B
Lack of balance murdered PvP - most of the people doesn't really want to sacrifice their theme, so they have nothing to do in PvP.
Lack of balance murdered PvE as well - because it is impossible to create content challenging for anyone when we have at least 3 "power tiers" - archetypes, theme driven freeforms, pure powergame freeforms (though even theme freeforms can vastly vary in their effectiveness) - each of those "tiers" having different level of power.
So what remains with no competitive PvP and PvE? A dressing game?
I agree. With no baseline, how can we hope to balance what difficulty even IS? What is extremely difficult for one is a cakewalk for another of the same level, same amount of Tier 3 powers, same amount of stat points..
My character also has one look. So playing doll dress-up lost its appeal long ago
Except not.
EVERY powerset should offer exactly the same possibility for powerbuilding.
If player wants cherry-picking powers, then should be able to do it even if staying within character theme.
Not by taking making frankenstein monsters.
You can't handwave game inability to provide complete powersets with this way of thinking.
I was unaware that "theme" was a gold standard that everyone has to subscribe to if they wanted to participate in PvP.
Yes, power level homogenisation DO creates diversity in themes of character builds.
If every powerset would contain attacks comparable to TMG, Force Cascade or Epidemic, then there would be at least reason to stay within powerset without sacrrificing your power.
Comparable how? In terms of damage? Make Force Cascade and Fireball output the exact base damage for example? How about energy costs? Advantages?
How do you balance out advantage vs energy cost vs damage output vs recharge time vs maintain / charged / tap vs ranged / melee effectively across all powers for each powerset? Do you have some winning formula to do this? I sure don't. I doubt anyone has it, not even Cryptic.
Let's start by giving Fireball KB like Cascade has. But wait! Fireball also has clinging flames! Let's give Force Cascade a DoT as well to balance both! Oh yeah, Cascade also has a hold advantage too right? Oh, by the way, MA has only two ranged attacks. What's up with that? It needs more! Other powersets have more! Give MA more ranged attacks for balance!
Yadda yadda yadda...
Why bother giving an individual power unique flair about them? Make them all carbon copies of each other from different powersets! That's diversity and not to mention balance!
Defend it as hard as you'd like, but bare truth is - CO is broken and lacking in this department. Badly.
I'm defending nothing. I just don't take an idealist stance that balance is actually something attainable in this game. There are far too many variables, and variables of variables to consider. Why CO is "broken" is because of that fact and is by-product of the freeform system.
No. Players should NOT be forced to sacrifice their theme to participate in higher level of content.
Not in the game which is advertised as a game letting you play your theme hero.
Oh okay then, let's just get rid of varying difficulty levels. According to your suggestion, everyone is going to have the same types of powers anyway regardless of whichever powerset they choose them from anyway.
By the way, it's very possible to create a powerful build and give it a theme. I don't get this mindset of powergame != theme.
Explain me, what kind of balance Cryptic actually achieved?
This one when you can tank better with offensive passive than with few of dedicated ones?
Or this one when you can play through all the game spamming one starter dual guns maintain, because no higher tier abilities are even close in DPS?
I can't believe that anyone sane can defend current situation, because it's a bad comedy.
I'll tell you what's even badder comedy: People who still cling onto the illusion that Cryptic has the ingenuity (and resources, lol) to make the whole system "balanced" without doing a complete overhaul of the current freeform system that we have and in turn changing the game that drastically. You want balance, and yet want to keep the freeform system with a structure that goes against balance. It ain't going to happen. Either keep the freeform system as it is, or go purely AT. You want pure AT? I sure as heck don't, but if there's any realistic balance to be expected, then it's with a pure AT system.
I should not be forced to ditch Regen, because other passives (and not even defensive ones) are better for tanking, otherwise I'm underperforming.
And frankly, I should also not be forced to stack one stat only to counter a travel power which is an active defence, a pretty good one as well.
No one's forcing you to"ditch" Regen. It's still a good passive. You can still make a decent Regen tank. You're just creating the burden for yourself for not picking up "better" powers out there. I'm pretty sure you'll find a lot of players out there who don't powerbuild like crazy and still manage to get through a lot of the current content just fine.
Why bother giving an individual power unique flair about them? Make them all carbon copies of each other from different powersets! That's diversity and not to mention balance!
Thing is, it's still a far better solution than current state of the game.
Balance patches are standard in this industry. Blizzard does it most of the time.
This is why some games are succesful and do have any meaningful playerbase.
I'll tell you what's even badder comedy: People who still cling onto the illusion that Cryptic has the ingenuity (and resources, lol) to make the whole system "balanced" without doing a complete overhaul of the current freeform system that we have and in turn changing the game that drastically. You want balance, and yet want to keep the freeform system with a structure that goes against balance. It ain't going to happen. Either keep the freeform system as it is, or go purely AT. You want pure AT? I sure as heck don't, but if there's any realistic balance to be expected, then it's with a pure AT system.
I'll be blunt.
I know that Cryptic will never fix it. It's well beyond their level of competence, resources and a good will.
A new game would be needed to make it right.
Look at present state of PvP.
Look also at present state of competitive PvE..
People are skipping content which requires really heavy powerbuilding.
No one's forcing you to"ditch" Regen. It's still a good passive. You can still make a decent Regen tank. You're just creating the burden for yourself for not picking up "better" powers out there. I'm pretty sure you'll find a lot of players out there who don't powerbuild like crazy and still manage to get through a lot of the current content just fine.
Through a lot of current lower tier content you say. Because Regen isn't as effective choice as others and by sticking with Regen I'm punishing my effectiveness.
I'm not a masochist, of course I do take a better power. It's a game, it's all about effectiveness.
It was an example, I removed Regen from my tanks except the one used for farming Comic Issues and alerts.
In short - Cryptic did it wrong. This isn't the standard of MMO industry. This is why this game died as an effective MMO and will never be better.
Answer yourself, how many builds here has mandatory Quarry on physical damage dealers (and even tanks, though it was supposed to be offensive passive) and uses Masterful Dodge+BCR+Conviction combo for survival.
This is how looks diversity in CO. Now.
The only one of my 60 plus characters which has quarry is the archer. I'm more likely to use,WoTw, Nightwarrior(for the wet pants shuffle) or Aoed, so other people get a boost too.
I have 1 character with masteful dodge, now if only I could remember to use it.
The only character with conviction is a healer.
I will admit to liking the smaller combo of BCR & resurgence.
<insert sarcasm here>
To solve this problem, lets just have one set of powers with different special effects and names, that way everyone is the same.
No that won't work, then everyone will complain that they are all the same, why bother having different power sets.
NO problem, we have one power set and let people name theirs when they make a character. HMM no then they migth put in different ranks.
OK, one powerset and nothing above rank1. hmm then their gear and specs might make them better.
OK one powerset, all powers rank 1, no spec tree adn all gear is cosmetic.
there all balanced
Time to go play my unbalanced(mentally) characters
Thing is, it's still a far better solution than current state of the game.
Balance patches are standard in this industry. Blizzard does it most of the time.
This is why some games are succesful and do have any meaningful playerbase.
Make a couple of powersets, give them different names and different animations, but make them completely identical mechanics-wise, and then treat the players like complete morons thinking that they wouldn't take a second to realize that it's all as good just playing a single powerset ever, just with different cosmetics.
That's what you call a solution. Your solution completely goes against the point of freeform. Might as well stop offering gold subscription since freeform is the point of going gold in the first place, and get rid of the freeform slots in the process.
I know that Cryptic will never fix it. It's well beyond their level of competence, resources and a good will.
I've yet to see anyone come up with a "solution" that represents a higher level of competence, something other than "we need balance" and "game is broken".
Through a lot of current lower tier content you say. Because Regen isn't as effective choice as others and by sticking with Regen I'm punishing my effectiveness.
I'm not a masochist, of course I do take a better power. It's a game, it's all about effectiveness.
It was an example, I removed Regen from my tanks except the one used for farming Comic Issues and alerts.
This was because you wanted a more effective way of farming and not because Regen is an ineffective choice.
"be the hero you want to be"? I don't read it as a "be the hero you want to be, but please, gimp yourself first".
You must be really in love with current state of game mechanic to defend it so fiercely. Or really benefitting from it.
It doesn't make it by any means succesful as a MMO. It's dead. It works only because Cryptic can milk it, not like it will ever improve or anything.
Well, servers are still online, but it only makes it a zombie game. It still moves.
No, really, you can't convice me because I know I'm right.
And good attempt at fixing mechanicss at least partially would be making tiers meaningful.
So lower tier abilities can't be even more powerful than those of higher tiers, or they can be made powerful only having higher tier ability from the same set (like, for example - you can't buy rank 2 or 3 without having enough powers from the same set - or rather framework, because many powersets right now lack even slotted passives).
"be the hero you want to be"? I don't read it as a "be the hero you want to be, but please, gimp yourself first".
You must be really in love with current state of game mechanic to defend it so fiercely. Or really benefitting from it.
I'm not defending it right now because of the current state of it. I've made my disagreements with the game's direction and have remarked on various other problems enough times before around here.
I'm defending it right now against ludicrous ideas about game balance, like yours about making every powerset identical with each other except for cosmetics being much better than what we have now. "Homogenization leads to diversity". Seriously?
Do I think that current game mechanics are perfect? No. Do I want game balance if possible? Yes. Do I think that there's a realistic way to do it? No.
And good attempt at fixing mechanicss at least partially would be making tiers meaningful.
So lower tier abilities can't be even more powerful than those of higher tiers, or even made powerful without having higher tier ability from the same set (like, for example - you can't buy rank 2 or 3 without having enough powers from the same set - or rather framework, because many powersets right now lack even slotted passives).
This would be at least a good start.
So let me ask, in which tier would you put TGM in? Something higher than the tiers that AR and rocket launcher are in, because TGM outperforms both in DPS at the moment? Or do we ramp up AR's and rocket launcher's damage to be better than TGM's, or make TGM weaker since it's a low tier power?
I don't know about you but being able to choose AR or rocket launcer earlier than a pair of pistols seems silly to me.
Then again it all isn't about accessing uber powerful powers at lower tiers when they should be accessible at higher tiers. A build isn't reliant on that single power alone. There are powers at higher tiers that aren't powerful like Cascade that are just as important for a build.
So let me ask, in which tier would you put TGM in? Something higher than the tiers that AR and rocket launcher are in, because TGM outperforms both in DPS at the moment? Or do we ramp up AR's and rocket launcher's damage to be better than TGM's, or make TGM weaker since it's a low tier power?
Not necessary. Let's say TGM stays in its place but is WEAKER as such low tier power should be. Then it CAN be made as strong as now with buying further ranks, but not before said ranks are unlocked by having more powers from the same powerset.
Or other way - powers performance starts low but then also incerases with number of powers from the same powerset.
Either way player actually would have to invest into powerset for unlocking its full strength.
Also, right now TGM is plain broken and should be cut down anyway (not that it's only broken power, but this one is ridiculous as it is now).
Not necessary. Let's say TGM stays in its place but is WEAKER as such low tier power should be. Then it CAN be made as strong as now with buying further ranks, but not before said ranks are unlocked by having more powers from the same powerset.
Or other way - powers performance starts low but then also incerases with number of powers from the same powerset.
Either way player actually would have to invest into powerset for unlocking its full strength.
This only pigeon-holes players into sticking to a single powerset to make their powers from their set more powerful, and punishes players for choosing powers from other sets, thus working against freeform and in turn making it less valuable as a selling point for the game.
This only pigeon-holes players into sticking to a single powerset to make their powers from their set more powerful, and punishes players for choosing powers from other sets, thus working against freeform and in turn making it less valuable as a selling point for the game.
I see no problem with it.
It's logical - either you are medium level in everything or really good but only in a narrow field of expertise. This is how balance is usually made in games, including PnP roleplay ones.
CO tried to be original and wiser than rest of the world, reinventing the wheel, and that's why it failed so badly.
Players shouldn't be able to be equally good in few powersets as are players specialised in only one - they should be sacrificing power for flexibility.
I see no problem with it.
It's logical - either you are medium level in everything or really good but only in a narrow field of expertise. This is how balance is usually made in games, including PnP roleplay ones.
CO tried to be original and wiser than rest of the world, reinventing the wheel, and that's why it failed so badly.
Players shouldn't be able to be equally good in few powersets as are players specialised in only one.
What works for other games doesn't necessarily apply here.
Players using multiple powers from various powersets don't necessarily get the best of everything. There's a limited number of powers you can have and you have to go through tier prerequisites to access them. It's not like you can cherry pick to your heart's delight with no restriction, you still go through tiers, especially during the early tiers. Players already can't have the best of everything from all sets. At times you don't even use powers from every single set there is available either. At times you're worse off picking a single power from a set without taking another from that same set.
That's not drawback enough that we have to punish players even more by taking away ranking versatility with your idea?
I get the "jack of all trades but master of none" concept, and I know what it's like in other games and why it's okay for those games. CO isn't those other games. Freeform is the cream of the crop mechanic for this game and your idea punishes players unfairly and would make them even wonder why they even bothered with Freeform in the first place. They might as well play like an AT according to your idea.
Also, you do know that Freeform is the selling point of a gold subscription right?
What works for other games doesn't necessarily apply here.
I'm afraid it also applies here and it's painfully obvious looking at CO popularity or rather lack of it and PvP queques.
You can deny it, but state of the game speaks for itself.
Look how well CO fared by ignoring this principle.
I get the "jack of all trades but master of none" concept, and I know what it's like in other games and why it's okay for those games. CO isn't those other games. Freeform is the cream of the crop mechanic for this game and your idea punishes players unfairly and would make them even wonder why they even bothered with Freeform in the first place. They might as well play like an AT according to your idea.
Also, you do know that Freeform is the selling point of a gold subscription right?
I'm subscribed right now.
What I can't understand with your attitude - how exactly specialisation defeats reason for freeform?
Player still would be able to chose between powers from few powersets, yes, he'd be no longer equally good in everything, but that's the point of balance in gaming. Archetypes are far more limited than that - they can't chose powers even within powerset.
And yes, for this idea to work all powersets would have to be more fleshed than are now.
More powers, at least one offensive, one defensive, one support passive, active defence/offense and heal in every powerset.
This is why I'm thinking about it more as a kind of utopia. It will not happen. Right now fixing CO mechanics would be probably even more consuming than working at NWO... From the scratch.
But one can dream and play CO waiting for a better game, you know.
Maybe right now people still pay per month for the right to steamroll through content. But how many people ditched subscripion to this time, because gameplay was lacking?
I'm afraid it also applies here and it's painfully obvious looking at CO popularity or rather lack of it and PvP queques.
You can deny it, but state of the game speaks for itself.
Look how god CO fared by ignoring this principle.
I blame the state of the game to three things:
1) Lack of content
2) Lack of communication
3) Poor customer / technical support
I consider those three reasons to be the reasons and not game mechanics.
Player still would be able to chose between powers from few powersets, yes, he'd be no longer equally good in everything, but that's the point of balance in gaming. Archetypes are far more limited than that - they can't chose powers even within powerset.
Players already cannot be good in everything, and you want them to be even worse off. There are still restrictions with the current freeform system that have already been explained in my previous post. Your idea is to encourage players into using the freeform system to become glorified ATs and not actual freeforms.
Archetypes are limited because they're meant to be. The limitation is to provide incentive for a silver player to either go gold or get a freeform slot. It's already understood why they are limited compared to freeforms.
And yes, for this idea to work all powersets would have to be more fleshed than are now.
More powers, at least one offensive, one defensive, one support passive, active defence/offense and heal in every powerset.
Regardless of our disagreement, I wouldn't mind more power choices from each set. Good grief Telepathy needs more love. Might could use some new additions too.
I blame the state of the game to three things:
1) Lack of content
2) Lack of communication
3) Poor customer / technical support
I consider those three reasons to be the reasons and not game mechanics.
You are ignoring all complains ever made about dead of PvP and no need for teaming, then.
If broken mechanics causes game to be unpopular, it's also responsible for lack of content - especially with Cryptic stance that game isn't worth upgrading if it has not enough population/income.
Players already cannot be good in everything, and you want them to be even worse off. There are still restrictions with the current freeform system that have already been explained in my previous post.
Of course they can. By virtue of cherry-picking powers as you see fit you can have maxed DPS at range as well as in melee while being also a tank able to heal yourself with no need for any healer.
It's not really hard.
Truth be told, not only powers. Specialisations and new gear also spoiled few things.
Archetypes are limited because they're meant to be. The limitation is to provide incentive for a silver player to either go gold or get a freeform slot. It's already understood why they are limited compared to freeforms.
It has nothing to do with my statement - there is nothing wrong with players having to chose their field of expertise. It will not turn freeforms into archetypes by no longer being equally best in anything.
You are ignoring all complains ever made about dead of PvP and no need for teaming, then.
If broken mechanics causes game to be unpopular, it's also responsible for lack of content - especially with Cryptic stance that game isn't worth upgrading if it has not enough population/income.
The game was designed to be focused on PvE first, PvP second, so you're not going to sell me on the PvP reason.
Lack of content eventually gives people little to nothing to do and that drives away people, broken mechanics or not.
Of course they can. By virtue of cherry-picking powers as you see fit you can have maxed DPS at range as well as in melee while being also a tank able to heal yourself with no need for any healer.
It's not really hard.
So what's wrong with being able to heal myself if I'm a tank?
What's wrong with being able to DPS at range and melee as well if I wanted to?
You clearly do not get the point of freeform if you even have to mention these. I'm having a hard time believing that you're subscribed. Are you telling me that you don't use self-heals, active defenses or other buffs? Are you telling me that it's actually a bad thing being able to heal yourself without a need for a healer? If your answer is yes to both, I have an island to sell to you.
If you really are subscribed and are using a freeform system, I'd recommend that you convert to silver, put the money where the mouth is and play ATs instead because that seems to be more to your liking.
Comments
Is it fair that people who want to play the game as intended have to randomly deal with being gimped? Remember, you have to analyze fairness within the context of the game.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Define "as intended", please.
Like, in terms of what you would consider "acceptable" power choices/combinations.
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The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
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Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
A little different than that. Instead of "everything applies trauma" it's more like, "every set can apply trauma."
Also note, I'm not against a homogenized powerset game. I didn't say it as an argument against balance. Basically all I'm saying is that every set would have similar powers to each other. Like, there wouldn't be the difference between that Martial Arts dragon punch thing that does much more DPS than Haymaker. At the end of the day, tap for tap or charge for charge, the powers would do the same DPS at the exact same energy cost. It's a reskin of another power, with adequate tweaks (half the charge time, half the damage, etc.) and a different animation just for looks to tie it into the flavor of the other set.
It all comes down to each set having similar attacks that will do similar damage so there's no disparity between sets, and less frankenbuilds. The end goal would be to go out-of-set if it goes along with your theme (like doing fire and ice powers, or a dragon man that fights with claws but can also breathe fire), as opposed to having a Might character that doesn't take Haymaker and instead takes the dragon punch because it does more damage. Why can't archery have a maintained single target arrow volley that works just like Two Gun Mojo? Why can't the Fire powerset have a gigantic fireball that wrecks everything in its path like Force Cascade?
Better governance of builds would have alleviated that.
Oh it'll never happen, diva. This is Champions Online.. you've crossed the vestibule
Okay.
Most people, when they say "make the game balanced", end up meaning "flatten the stuff I don't like." (Look at Jay's OP and damned-near every post in Hero Games, including some of your own that may have been less-serious than I originally thought)
Especially when they start throwing around the "as intended" phrase. Usually coupled with rants about people who mix powersets and then some drivel about ninjas or clowns or furries or demons or soldiers or aliens or whatever trope they hate.
Which, if that philosophy is followed, just then ends up with the opposite problem a bit later.
I'd gladly sacrifice some mechanical uniqueness (since we likely aren't going to get divergent mechanics that end up equally-balanced) for greater ease of thematic choices.
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The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
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Also, the game cannot possibly be balanced by a 1-man balance team. There's just too many possible scenarios to account for and too many powers that follow their own rules.
That's all well and good, but I think that was the intent from the get-go. It's hard to balance things like this when there's so much different math involved. MMOs will never have any kind of balance when they have diversity.
I'm just saying that's manageable balance. Everyone can marry everyone, no exceptions. That's the only way you can have balance, especially in a game with so many powersets and so many factors. There's just so much math to test, and then to put it all into practice... inconceivable!
Honestly, this game will never have balance (good or bad, I'm on the fence really, never been a powergamer here). It's just not possible, not even with a gigantic development team.
That's a good way to put it.
I agree that powers could be balanced much better. Yes.
Again, fairness isn't my problem.
Using the gay marriage example:
It is fair for me to marry a guy, just like it is fair for a woman to marry a guy.
On the other hand, marriage isn't always balanced--I married a nice guy and all (he's a chef), but I didn't get to marry, say Vin Diesel.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
I was asking Smackwell (as community moderator) for leeway to keep from being called for a "Flaming" political post. Which was not the intent.
Also, we should ALL be allowed to marry Channing Diesel-Jolie-Pitt
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I don't buy this. I've seen folks say this before, and I just don't see it. I don't see this complicated web of interacting effects that people try to make the freeform system out to be. The majority of the powers in it amount to "push this button to do damage". Here and there you have power X somehow modify Power Y, but it's never in some wild and crazy way... usually it's "makes it do 15% more damage".
"It's too complicated" isn't really an excuse they can use... and to be fair, they've never tried to use it as an excuse, so they quite possibly don't believe that either.a
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Player input can only effect the game once the developers make the decision about which input from which players they're going to implement. It's not the players' fault that some of them had bad ideas... it's the developers fault for implementing those bad ideas rather than the good ones ( and some of the bad ideas never had any origin from players to begin with ).
Other than that, I agree with the opinions presented in your post... well, other than the more restricted freeform system being better, freeform should be as freeform as can be![/COLOR]
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
The game needs a way to make taking "redundant" attacks worth the opportunity cost of not taking another buff.
Or some other sort of mechanic to make sinking almost a third/a quarter (depending on setup) of your available powers into a single-target attack chain worthwhile. (like with the Dragon's Claws example).
Then again, soft cooldowns (using a combo to enable a special attack, needing to stack a buff for full effectiveness or building up a meter) are both more fluid and less punishing in an action-based game than hard cooldowns that lock out almost a quarter of your build because someone who wasn't foolish enough to go melee knocked/rooted/flew away from you. (I'm counting NPC enemies in this too. Damned grenadiers/birds...)
Cooldowns on melee powers' energy-building heavy-hitters were part of what sparked the melee pass. If they'd made taking more low-tier attacks worthwhile and gone with soft cooldowns, we might've avoided the "spam DC/DW/Massacre/Skewer/Haymaker tap/DU" melee game we have now.
Your tier 1/character creation attack should be its own slot, IMO, right alongside the energy builder. Then take the synergy some of them have and build on it to make it worthwhile. And maybe a dedicated "passive" slot.
Power creep? Yeah. But it's diminished a bit by action economy. Taking two buffs that don't require hitting the target and an attack is always going to be more powerful than taking three attacks. You kind of have to rig the deck in the additional attacks' favor to get people to take them.
All of the above's more an issue for melee, though.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
_______________________________
The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
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Power creep in Champions has been terrible. It isn't just bad, it's really bad. People are trying to ignore it and wave a hand on how it isn't a big deal, but it is. The games too easy. And when it's too easy people blast through content too fast, and since the game doesn't provide anything alternative to do at the end, it offers little replay value. Concepts are thrown out the window in favor of the best powers in slot, whether people care to admit it or not. A few take some chump powers, but that really does ignore the rest, especially since many builds don't need all 14 powers (as Champions was originally designed to operate with only 7 powers and one passive) so player builds often have excess powers they only use sometimes.
Hell back in beta we could choose multiple energy builders for different builds for those of us who actually wanted to have builds for separate purposes and there had to be a lot of thought put into them, unlike now where it's just pick the best in slot and be done with it.
As far as players not influencing balance in this game, that's sadly untrue. The devs have caved to the player base since beta on every balance concern and issue. I've watched, since beta, all these things that got implemented which resulted in a game that has progressively gotten easier with more OP powers.
Oh and travel powers were more in depth and expanded in the beta to.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Swinging and Super Jump are Fun. They are interactive. TP is more conceptual because it doesn't actually work like TP, it works like spirit/phased flight. Except you fall out of it.
It's like a cooldown power - you can't leave it on and go pee, but you're also not doing anything proactive.
You kinda just feel like this.
But in combat? It's cheap as hell. You can move, not be hit (sorta), become invisible, and have absolute control of your movement, and when things get hairy, you poof away with minimal consequence and almost no need for skill or forethought. It's a better active offense than most active offenses.
Jay - because due to our open system, the only way to balance all the powers one might potentially take is to make them all function the same - this eliminates the diversity in function. Is it possible to absolutely balance for every play-style and power combination while still retaining utmost freedom and individual powers' characteristics? Possibly. But I don't think human devs can do it, for one thing, and for two, it also kills the tiered hero aspects - a street sweeper has no business battling gods, and conversely, a cosmic should be able to wipe the floor with trash. Such disparity in ability demonstrated between Superman and The Cat is only possible in an unbalanced system.
edit to add:
For the record, I do believe our systems are completely broken and need to be redone from the ground up from head to toe - our stats are meaningless, our gear is broken, our powers are pretty but completely inconsistent, and spec trees make the rest of the game nearly redundant. I'm not saying things should stay as they are or that anything should be as ridiculously imbalanced as CO, I'm just saying that things should not be balanced.
That's a false premise. The majority of powers in the top end of FFs are more like "push this button with this button and this button to achieve god mode/permastealth/perma 100% dodge/outheal incoming damage". DPS comes second.
Also, the outlying synergies are not the ones that "makes X do 15% more damage"
Nanobot Swarm enables a re-use of a power. Not "makes it do 15% more damage"
Radiance enables self-targeting with energy builder. Used with Revitalize spec it allows fast cycling of cooldowns. Also not "makes it do 15% more damage"
Gas Pellets and Dino devices with AoED is also not "makes it do 15% more damage"
NPG and Eruption rotations? Also nothing to do with 15% more damage.
FF is about how many things your character can do at the same time, not how much damage it does. It is strong because you can have HoTs ticking, uber damage resistance buffs running while putting out consistent damage and being able to pop insta cast bursts of healing or damage as needed.
This SHOULD be a strength in Champions Online that would be a weakness in other IPs. It seems that all the things that SHOULD help the superhero genre be translated into a video game are suck.
One player wants to play as pistol whip girl, the IP allows for that to be as viable as Electroman.
The rules character balance should be based on the Level and Gear of character. That's one of the basis of Role-Play Games.
- -
Why play Phoenix on Marvel Heroes if you have to compare yourself to Squirrel Girl?
or
Would you rather play Sidekicks Universe Online?
OR you should be able to come to Champions Online and create your own identity. Maybe you are a Jack of All trades and in this universe that means you have alot of mediocre powers. Maybe you're master of one and are an awesome weilder of Fire powers. But to claim that the rules of THIS lore should be governed by build type makes no logical sense.
I mean, negative ions is totally worthless unless you take powers to exploit that application, so would the the ability to apply negative ions make a power cheaper, if it's not taken in conjunction w/ other powers to exploit that? If you take a passive that boosts certain damage types, but then take a power of a type that isn't boosted, should said power cost less for you? Is fear more valuable than knockback, or more? If I take aspect of the infernal, should every power that applies deadly poison now cost more for me?
It just becomes a cumbersome mess, and like in comics, there perhaps should be a tiered system when it comes to PvP. I mean, as cool as Batman may be, he kinda lost out on the superpowered lottery when compared to superman or the martian manhunter. Yeah, the comics make a big deal about him competing on their level, but he really doesn't.
If this were a PnP game, the GM could accommodate every build, tailor the experience to them, and veto certain builds that were just put together to be as powerful as possible... here, that isn't an option.
I mean, I suppose they could go back and start setting arbitrary limitations - like you need at least 5 other force powers to get force geyser and cascade, or have really powerful attacks impose a limitation on what TPs could be used right after they are used - like you can't use teleport for 10 seconds after firing off a force cascade or gigabolt, but that just punishes people that take these really powerful attacks because they genuinely fit their concept.
And this last part is what bothers me the most. It's pretty easy to tell when someone takes a combinations of powers that form a cohesive build, but when someone simply cherrypicks their powers to be as effective as possible, then things get frustrating.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Isn't it? How is this not a prioritized responsibility being demanded by players? It's a right, not a privilege.
A prioritized responsibility to do what? Get Cryptic to play GM and restrict certain builds if they felt those builds were inappropriate for the game? Say goodbye to freeform and "be the hero you want to be" if that's the case. What works for a controlled PnP campaign doesn't automatically apply to MMORPGs or even RPGs in general.
Now, see how easy it was to clearly explain what all those powers do and how they interact? So... where's all this complicated mystery that makes balance impossible to achieve?
There actually is, so that's not actually a problem. There aren't actually that many power combinations that present a problem, and of the ones there are the effects are predictable and their effect on a character's power level easily gauged... after all, players have been doing this for years.
...um... i don't think anyone is demanding that GMs get to tell us how we can and cannot build. Primarily because... you know... from how they've treated the power set... the first thing they would probably say is "NO TELEPATHS".
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
So what's your solution?
The one that comes to mind is to deny such power combinations to be used and boom instant balance.
You and I both know that it's a stupid solution for obvious reasons, so what's next? Nerf powers on an individual basis? We all know that the majority of the time, power combos are the real issue, so this is hardly a solution.
There's never going to be an ideal balance amongst builds, just accept it.
The code is the game-master. The code can decide what builds are and are not allowed.
As soon as the game master changes laws, none of those changes exist in a bubble. But the changes came and keep coming.. the problem used to be a crack in the dam, but now no little Dutch boy can plug them.
Ame was in charge of the system at one time.. but the forumites did not take their responsibility seriously and encouraged such great powers as Incapacitates.
What to do now? I don't know.. I am willing to hear what current players think.
Some say do nothing, which I don't agree with.
But maybe there are good ideas they CAN do from the foundation level (not powers) to improve the game experience.
I just don't expect them to. I just wanted to understand what the current playerbase thought since the players here now are not the players here back when.
#TelepathyNOW sounded like a demand to me. HAHA
You realize that denying players the freedom to use such builds goes against the very concept of freeform right?
So it's the forumites' fault now for imbalance. Way to grasp for straws.
Since there's only the two major comic book brands, I'll have to use their characters in examples.
Is it fair that Daredevil cannot go toe-to-toe with say.....Solomon Grundy?
Or that Batroc the Leaper has absolutely no chance against Superman?
How about if Aquaman had to fight Juggernaut or the Hulk?
No, it's not fair. But what those heroes would end up doing is creatively using their powers to gain a unique advantage to best their foes. Well. In Aquaman's case, anyway. Superman is just hax.
Do you have anything at all like that with a freeform character? Not unless you choose to. Seems to me there's pretty much a choice few powers to pick from if you want your character to be any decent at all, and most certainly the FotM powers for PvP builds.
So the question becomes not "Should Games be Fair" but "What -is- Fair?"
Given the examples above...and the other examples which are provided in the comic book genre(which this game is based heavily upon, right?)........sure it's fair. After all, not everyone can be the golden god that can solo Therakiel or Gravitar.
Except everyone can, if they pick the "right" powers.
So what to do to "balance" the game? Bring every other "not right" power up to those levels? Bring those "god-mode" powers down a few notches? Or do you realize that, as stated above....not every comic book character should be able to take down Galactus and let those that are happy playing "flawed and imperfect" characters play their own game?
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
Nobody wants to talk about these? :biggrin:
END I think is pretty self-explanatory, more energy right? Yoohoo! But REC on other hand, doesn't really help me build my energy to equilibrium WITHOUT USING THE ENERGY BUILDER. I've actually had moments where my energy is 0 and it wouldn't go back up without using the energy builder. I wish having REC as superstat would give the same benefits as the Support role does, then I would take REC seriously. Nowadays you can have INT with Molecular self-assembly and conviction as a heal. Your energy will be full all times.
Unless you're talking about REC and END as your PRIMARY SUPERSTAT. Rarely I would have these as my main superstats, because there are just other primary superstats that are far more useful. REC and END would be my secondary stats, to help me charge up high-energy attacks, nothing more really.
Crowd Control resistance and CC strenght = Broken now, right? As far the CC mods go, I mean.
Also, I think they should just ditch the Cryptic math they are using for Passives and other stats, things would be so much depressing when you find out that your rank 3 Electric Form buffs your damage by 19% at lvl 40. Or your 100% character defense actually is 40%-50%. Or your 400-800 Offense that gives 40% damage boost, actually gives you 2%.
Crit Chance, Dodge and Avoidance seems like the only numbers that are pretty accurate.
It's messed up.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
@Pallih in game
I disagree. Governance is not against the freeform system.
There is enough fault to go around in many cases. And yes, I am saying people on the forums are a (perhaps the most substantial) driving force to the bias shown in Champions Online. The devs had an even greater requirement of editing, but nonetheless it became clear when powers WERE being "reviewed" the forum's focus was not on balance.
The Champions IP does not need to adhere to other IPs "rules". As I stated earlier.. this should have been a strength of the IP. The governing factor on how builds work should be based on GAME design, not COMIC design. In any roleplaying game a character's strengths come from their Experience and Gear.
There are plenty of ways to have full energy at all times.. the least common of which is stacking REC.
My supergroup DE:LTA was a great experiment in stacking high levels of single stats (770 INT on my character for instance). Con, Rec, and End had many problems with the way the game currently treats stats. All stats should provide fair value.
I invested in CC Resistance with Legion's Gear. It does nothing to the defense of Crowd Control (both PvE Crowd Control and PvP Crowd Control.. please note that the two are completely different systems). Also when they removed Knock Resistance from this slot it created a system where Knock is better Crowd Control than actual Crowd Control.
Even if it did offer crowd control resistance as advertised, I find it hard to believe that being hold immune is as valuable as defense. Your Active Offenses provide free break-free. Your Active Defenses provide defense to take a hit (and hit points aid in break-free). If CCResist gear were the ONLY way to resist holds i could see it being valuable. But as with any economy, it cannot and does not exist in a bubble. So unless any discussion is comprehensive then it can only manage the symptoms while ignoring the disease.
I obviously agree.
Not sure that I can agree. I've seen too few instances of developers paying significant attention to forum input to believe this.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Governance is against the freeform system if it decides to do things to it to make it the opposite of a freeform system. What you're advocating is making the freeform system something other than freeform. What you want to do is to deny people the right to use a build that they want just to adhere to your own moral standards on what makes a "legit" build.
"Fair" indeed.
Because Cryptic has a remarkable track record of listening to player input right? Clearly players on the forums haven't been trying hard enough with feedback these past 3 years. :rolleyes:
Be done with this comic book arguments for defending this game pathetic lack of any semblance of balance, people.
It isn't even funny.
Because not sure if anybody noticed that in CO the Punisher or generic dual blade ninja actually IS more powerful than Hulk or Superman.
Yes, here Daredevil can go toe-to-toe with Hulk and he's actually the stronger one.
Surely it's because we are all given kryptonite bullets and dual blades made of finest unobtainium.
:biggrin:
So much about this argument of staying true to the genre. As if CO were such game.
It doesn't matter, which genre. CO is a game first , and then is about superheroes. And it fails as a game in this department.
And this game is in need of any semblance of balance.
Even if it had to be done brutally and by any means necessary, no matter how many builds would be butchered in the process.
Because this game died because of lack of even slightest balance.
Lack of balance murdered PvP - most of the people doesn't really want to sacrifice their theme, so they have nothing to do in PvP.
Lack of balance murdered PvE as well - because it is impossible to create content challenging for anyone when we have at least 3 "power tiers" - archetypes, theme driven freeforms, pure powergame freeforms (though even theme freeforms can vastly vary in their effectiveness) - each of those "tiers" having different level of power.
So what remains with no competitive PvP and PvE? A dressing game?
I know that perfect balance in MMO is impossible, but at least games should try to achieve it. CO doesn't even try at least from On Alert.
This is also another reason why it failed so miserably as a game and has so few players.
Right now it isn't "Be the hero you want to be" but "Be the hero you want to be, but only if it includes few must-have combos, otherwise be the gimped you want to be".
So much about customisation.
People are in fear of powerset homogenisation, but given CO state homogenisation would made at least diversity in themes possible.
Answer yourself, how many builds here has mandatory Quarry on physical damage dealers (and even tanks, though it was supposed to be offensive passive) and uses Masterful Dodge+BCR+Conviction combo for survival.
This is how looks diversity in CO. Now.
I disagree. PVP is a highly competetive gamemode. You will unsuprisingly find people who will make powerful builds to stay at their competetive best. If someone doesn't want to adapt to PVP's metagame for the sake of their theme then they should expect to have a higher risk of losing or just stay away altogether if they can't handle consistent losing streaks.
That problem lies in Cryptic's inability to make Elite difficulty provide an actual challenge as expected of the term "Elite". Elite difficulty should cater to the players who make pure "powergame" freeforms. Apparently it doesn't currently because people are able to solo Elite mode lairs.
How many other MMORPGs out there in the market have a system as dynamic as Cryptic's freeform system and has managed to pull off balance better?
I'll wait.
Homogenisation creates diversity.
Someone please convince me that this isn't a contradictive statement.
Except not.
EVERY powerset should offer exactly the same possibility for powerbuilding.
If player wants cherry-picking powers, then should be able to do it even if staying within character theme.
Not by making frankenstein monsters.
You can't handwave game inability to provide complete powersets with this way of thinking.
Yes, power level homogenisation DO creates diversity in themes of character builds.
If every powerset would contain attacks comparable to TMG, Force Cascade or Epidemic, then there would be at least reason to stay within powerset without sacrificing your power.
Defend it as hard as you'd like, but bare truth is - CO is broken and lacking in this department. Badly.
No.
Players should NOT be forced to sacrifice their theme to participate in higher level of content.
Not in the game which is advertised as a game letting you play your theme hero.
And effect can be clearly seen.
Especially with Cryptic attitude - "we don't do something for only few players, it isn't profitable enough" - according to it because fewer players uses powerbuilds, we have no emphasis on pvp or challenging content.
And we have also next to none player retention.
Explain me, what kind of balance Cryptic actually achieved?
This one when you can tank better with offensive passive than with few of dedicated ones?
Or this one when you can play through all the game spamming one starter dual guns maintain, because no higher tier abilities are even close in DPS?
I can't believe that anyone sane can defend current situation, because it's a bad comedy.
I should not be forced to ditch Regen, because other passives (and not even defensive ones) are better for tanking, otherwise I'm underperforming. I should have exactly the same level of performance as any other tank with their tanking passives (and I mean tanking passives, Quarry and AoPM should NOT be in any circumstances more efficient in tanking than dedicated defensive passives).
And frankly, I should also not be forced to stack one stat only to counter a travel power which is an active defence, a pretty good one as well.
And finally, never, ever, player in hybrid role should be a better tank than player in dedicated tanking role.
This system is broken beyond any hope.
Besides, it's hardly competitive - with CO way of having mandatory OP powers a 10 years old can make a powerbuild which will be almost the same as powerbuilds of other ten players (and very diverse to boot).
I am the type to go back and actually cite sources if needed. But I will stop short and simply say, devs didn't always have a deaf ear to the forums. In fact the first year of the game, the game mechanics were formed almost exclusively by the players.
I cite for, the maximum effect, the case of CO Forum vs Crowd Control. Forums won. Crowd Control lost. The ramifications were felt not only in debuffing/telepathy builds but in melee viability in PvP, Gear viability, and the new Specializations system. The end result, a major game mechanic is a Cluster****. All for the hate of one 2 point advantage
This is one cited example, but there are many other cases where the Forum clamored for a change that decidedly was bias and completely against the health of game balance. If you require proof it will be harder to find because the forums have since been changed, making research more difficult.. but game veterans understand this to be true.
I agree. With no baseline, how can we hope to balance what difficulty even IS? What is extremely difficult for one is a cakewalk for another of the same level, same amount of Tier 3 powers, same amount of stat points..
My character also has one look. So playing doll dress-up lost its appeal long ago
I was unaware that "theme" was a gold standard that everyone has to subscribe to if they wanted to participate in PvP.
Comparable how? In terms of damage? Make Force Cascade and Fireball output the exact base damage for example? How about energy costs? Advantages?
How do you balance out advantage vs energy cost vs damage output vs recharge time vs maintain / charged / tap vs ranged / melee effectively across all powers for each powerset? Do you have some winning formula to do this? I sure don't. I doubt anyone has it, not even Cryptic.
Let's start by giving Fireball KB like Cascade has. But wait! Fireball also has clinging flames! Let's give Force Cascade a DoT as well to balance both! Oh yeah, Cascade also has a hold advantage too right? Oh, by the way, MA has only two ranged attacks. What's up with that? It needs more! Other powersets have more! Give MA more ranged attacks for balance!
Yadda yadda yadda...
Why bother giving an individual power unique flair about them? Make them all carbon copies of each other from different powersets! That's diversity and not to mention balance!
I'm defending nothing. I just don't take an idealist stance that balance is actually something attainable in this game. There are far too many variables, and variables of variables to consider. Why CO is "broken" is because of that fact and is by-product of the freeform system.
Oh okay then, let's just get rid of varying difficulty levels. According to your suggestion, everyone is going to have the same types of powers anyway regardless of whichever powerset they choose them from anyway.
By the way, it's very possible to create a powerful build and give it a theme. I don't get this mindset of powergame != theme.
I'll tell you what's even badder comedy: People who still cling onto the illusion that Cryptic has the ingenuity (and resources, lol) to make the whole system "balanced" without doing a complete overhaul of the current freeform system that we have and in turn changing the game that drastically. You want balance, and yet want to keep the freeform system with a structure that goes against balance. It ain't going to happen. Either keep the freeform system as it is, or go purely AT. You want pure AT? I sure as heck don't, but if there's any realistic balance to be expected, then it's with a pure AT system.
No one's forcing you to"ditch" Regen. It's still a good passive. You can still make a decent Regen tank. You're just creating the burden for yourself for not picking up "better" powers out there. I'm pretty sure you'll find a lot of players out there who don't powerbuild like crazy and still manage to get through a lot of the current content just fine.
Thing is, it's still a far better solution than current state of the game.
Balance patches are standard in this industry. Blizzard does it most of the time.
This is why some games are succesful and do have any meaningful playerbase.
Dosen't change fact that it will be far easier to go powerbuild with no theme.
I'll be blunt.
I know that Cryptic will never fix it. It's well beyond their level of competence, resources and a good will.
A new game would be needed to make it right.
Look at present state of PvP.
Look also at present state of competitive PvE..
People are skipping content which requires really heavy powerbuilding.
Theme should be freakin competitive standard possible to achieve if game is advertised by it.
Otherwise you have broken product - not that it's surprising to anyone that CO IS a product broken beyond any repair. Right now it's obvious.
Through a lot of current lower tier content you say. Because Regen isn't as effective choice as others and by sticking with Regen I'm punishing my effectiveness.
I'm not a masochist, of course I do take a better power. It's a game, it's all about effectiveness.
It was an example, I removed Regen from my tanks except the one used for farming Comic Issues and alerts.
In short - Cryptic did it wrong. This isn't the standard of MMO industry. This is why this game died as an effective MMO and will never be better.
The only one of my 60 plus characters which has quarry is the archer. I'm more likely to use,WoTw, Nightwarrior(for the wet pants shuffle) or Aoed, so other people get a boost too.
I have 1 character with masteful dodge, now if only I could remember to use it.
The only character with conviction is a healer.
I will admit to liking the smaller combo of BCR & resurgence.
<insert sarcasm here>
To solve this problem, lets just have one set of powers with different special effects and names, that way everyone is the same.
No that won't work, then everyone will complain that they are all the same, why bother having different power sets.
NO problem, we have one power set and let people name theirs when they make a character. HMM no then they migth put in different ranks.
OK, one powerset and nothing above rank1. hmm then their gear and specs might make them better.
OK one powerset, all powers rank 1, no spec tree adn all gear is cosmetic.
there all balanced
Time to go play my unbalanced(mentally) characters
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Make a couple of powersets, give them different names and different animations, but make them completely identical mechanics-wise, and then treat the players like complete morons thinking that they wouldn't take a second to realize that it's all as good just playing a single powerset ever, just with different cosmetics.
That's what you call a solution. Your solution completely goes against the point of freeform. Might as well stop offering gold subscription since freeform is the point of going gold in the first place, and get rid of the freeform slots in the process.
No thanks.
Doesn't change the fact that theme or no theme is completely up to player choice and isn't a requirement to play the game.
I've yet to see anyone come up with a "solution" that represents a higher level of competence, something other than "we need balance" and "game is broken".
Show me this advertisement please.
This was because you wanted a more effective way of farming and not because Regen is an ineffective choice.
Game's still running by the way.
You must be really in love with current state of game mechanic to defend it so fiercely. Or really benefitting from it.
If any choice has any more effective alternatives then it is ineffective.
It doesn't make it by any means succesful as a MMO. It's dead. It works only because Cryptic can milk it, not like it will ever improve or anything.
Well, servers are still online, but it only makes it a zombie game. It still moves.
No, really, you can't convice me because I know I'm right.
And good attempt at fixing mechanicss at least partially would be making tiers meaningful.
So lower tier abilities can't be even more powerful than those of higher tiers, or they can be made powerful only having higher tier ability from the same set (like, for example - you can't buy rank 2 or 3 without having enough powers from the same set - or rather framework, because many powersets right now lack even slotted passives).
This would be at least a good start.
I'm not defending it right now because of the current state of it. I've made my disagreements with the game's direction and have remarked on various other problems enough times before around here.
I'm defending it right now against ludicrous ideas about game balance, like yours about making every powerset identical with each other except for cosmetics being much better than what we have now. "Homogenization leads to diversity". Seriously?
Do I think that current game mechanics are perfect? No. Do I want game balance if possible? Yes. Do I think that there's a realistic way to do it? No.
So make all choices completely identical so there would be virtually a single choice, which is good as no choice at all? Got it.
So let me ask, in which tier would you put TGM in? Something higher than the tiers that AR and rocket launcher are in, because TGM outperforms both in DPS at the moment? Or do we ramp up AR's and rocket launcher's damage to be better than TGM's, or make TGM weaker since it's a low tier power?
I don't know about you but being able to choose AR or rocket launcer earlier than a pair of pistols seems silly to me.
Then again it all isn't about accessing uber powerful powers at lower tiers when they should be accessible at higher tiers. A build isn't reliant on that single power alone. There are powers at higher tiers that aren't powerful like Cascade that are just as important for a build.
Not necessary. Let's say TGM stays in its place but is WEAKER as such low tier power should be. Then it CAN be made as strong as now with buying further ranks, but not before said ranks are unlocked by having more powers from the same powerset.
Or other way - powers performance starts low but then also incerases with number of powers from the same powerset.
Either way player actually would have to invest into powerset for unlocking its full strength.
Also, right now TGM is plain broken and should be cut down anyway (not that it's only broken power, but this one is ridiculous as it is now).
This only pigeon-holes players into sticking to a single powerset to make their powers from their set more powerful, and punishes players for choosing powers from other sets, thus working against freeform and in turn making it less valuable as a selling point for the game.
The idea would work better for an AT system.
I see no problem with it.
It's logical - either you are medium level in everything or really good but only in a narrow field of expertise. This is how balance is usually made in games, including PnP roleplay ones.
CO tried to be original and wiser than rest of the world, reinventing the wheel, and that's why it failed so badly.
Players shouldn't be able to be equally good in few powersets as are players specialised in only one - they should be sacrificing power for flexibility.
What works for other games doesn't necessarily apply here.
Players using multiple powers from various powersets don't necessarily get the best of everything. There's a limited number of powers you can have and you have to go through tier prerequisites to access them. It's not like you can cherry pick to your heart's delight with no restriction, you still go through tiers, especially during the early tiers. Players already can't have the best of everything from all sets. At times you don't even use powers from every single set there is available either. At times you're worse off picking a single power from a set without taking another from that same set.
That's not drawback enough that we have to punish players even more by taking away ranking versatility with your idea?
I get the "jack of all trades but master of none" concept, and I know what it's like in other games and why it's okay for those games. CO isn't those other games. Freeform is the cream of the crop mechanic for this game and your idea punishes players unfairly and would make them even wonder why they even bothered with Freeform in the first place. They might as well play like an AT according to your idea.
Also, you do know that Freeform is the selling point of a gold subscription right?
You can deny it, but state of the game speaks for itself.
Look how well CO fared by ignoring this principle.
I'm subscribed right now.
What I can't understand with your attitude - how exactly specialisation defeats reason for freeform?
Player still would be able to chose between powers from few powersets, yes, he'd be no longer equally good in everything, but that's the point of balance in gaming. Archetypes are far more limited than that - they can't chose powers even within powerset.
And yes, for this idea to work all powersets would have to be more fleshed than are now.
More powers, at least one offensive, one defensive, one support passive, active defence/offense and heal in every powerset.
This is why I'm thinking about it more as a kind of utopia. It will not happen. Right now fixing CO mechanics would be probably even more consuming than working at NWO... From the scratch.
But one can dream and play CO waiting for a better game, you know.
Maybe right now people still pay per month for the right to steamroll through content. But how many people ditched subscripion to this time, because gameplay was lacking?
I blame the state of the game to three things:
1) Lack of content
2) Lack of communication
3) Poor customer / technical support
I consider those three reasons to be the reasons and not game mechanics.
I already stated the reasons rather clearly in the previous two posts. I don't see the need to keep repeating myself.
Players already cannot be good in everything, and you want them to be even worse off. There are still restrictions with the current freeform system that have already been explained in my previous post. Your idea is to encourage players into using the freeform system to become glorified ATs and not actual freeforms.
Archetypes are limited because they're meant to be. The limitation is to provide incentive for a silver player to either go gold or get a freeform slot. It's already understood why they are limited compared to freeforms.
Regardless of our disagreement, I wouldn't mind more power choices from each set. Good grief Telepathy needs more love. Might could use some new additions too.
If broken mechanics causes game to be unpopular, it's also responsible for lack of content - especially with Cryptic stance that game isn't worth upgrading if it has not enough population/income. Because you are wrong and your reasons aren't viable. Of course they can. By virtue of cherry-picking powers as you see fit you can have maxed DPS at range as well as in melee while being also a tank able to heal yourself with no need for any healer.
It's not really hard.
Truth be told, not only powers. Specialisations and new gear also spoiled few things. It has nothing to do with my statement - there is nothing wrong with players having to chose their field of expertise. It will not turn freeforms into archetypes by no longer being equally best in anything.
The game was designed to be focused on PvE first, PvP second, so you're not going to sell me on the PvP reason.
Lack of content eventually gives people little to nothing to do and that drives away people, broken mechanics or not.
Which translates to "I'm not going to bother addressing your arguments so I'm just going to call you wrong."
So what's wrong with being able to heal myself if I'm a tank?
What's wrong with being able to DPS at range and melee as well if I wanted to?
You clearly do not get the point of freeform if you even have to mention these. I'm having a hard time believing that you're subscribed. Are you telling me that you don't use self-heals, active defenses or other buffs? Are you telling me that it's actually a bad thing being able to heal yourself without a need for a healer? If your answer is yes to both, I have an island to sell to you.
If you really are subscribed and are using a freeform system, I'd recommend that you convert to silver, put the money where the mouth is and play ATs instead because that seems to be more to your liking.