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Should Games be Fair?
gamehobo
Posts: 1,970 Arc User
There is a central principal to every successful game (Board game, Childhood game, Game-mastered game, and Video game). The competition and potential for each player begins from a level playing field.
The Hero Games system, in my opinion, does quite a bit to try to manage abilities. It has general abilities that are able to be customized based on a points system. But even greater than the points system, there is a game-master who is responsible for the experience of the players, and when a player goes outside of the balance the GM has the ability to rein them in.
I constantly hear from people who claim that Champions Online will not (and SHOULD not) be balanced. In the forums, the conversation is constantly met with two opposing sides of Customization vs Balancers. I just want to take a current poll of what players feel about the current Champions Online.
I hate to give "suggestions" but the issues listed below have multiple approaches to the issue of inequality and bias. I will try to deconstruct them as much as possible offering not just MY solutions but others I've heard.
- -
Cited Champions Online Inequalities:
Travel Powers:
Ranged Characters have 90ft advantage over melee of which a weak Crowd Control accentuates the disparity. Should Ranged powers cost more power points? Do less damage? Cause the caster to be stationary? Should all melee powers be mobile? Should the Melee DPS role have a default (aka costs nothing) crowd control mechanic?
Energy Maintenance has become a joke in champions online, making REC and END lose quite alot of usefulness compared to other stats. Should they review the energy cost/energy return system?
+Offense does much less than +Crits but they compete for the same gear slot. Should they remove the Diminishing Returns on +Offense or lower maximum crit chance/severity?
+Dodge does much more mitigation than +Defense.. both do much more that +CrowdControlResist yet they compete for the same gear slot.
Finally there is the issue of Build inequality. I personally want to see a stricter tier gating system that requires pre-requisite powers. This would both help new players in understanding the freeform system as well as help curb some of the frankenbuilds that happen in the current tiering system.
I am for the ability to choose between any and all of the frameworks available. Unfortunately the powers are not on their proper tiers, and beyond that the access to ANY power on ANY tier still exists for 7/13 of the choices available.
- -
I believe that Champions Online can be properly governed to become a game again. But to be a game, the competition and potential for each player begins from a level playing field.
If you feel that Champions Online Should NOT be balanced why do you feel this way?
If you feel that Champions Online SHOULD be balanced, what solutions can you offer?
P.S. - In no way do I, or should you, expect Cryptic Studios to act on the things said in this thread. It would cost too much money and has no guaranteed benefit.
The Hero Games system, in my opinion, does quite a bit to try to manage abilities. It has general abilities that are able to be customized based on a points system. But even greater than the points system, there is a game-master who is responsible for the experience of the players, and when a player goes outside of the balance the GM has the ability to rein them in.
I constantly hear from people who claim that Champions Online will not (and SHOULD not) be balanced. In the forums, the conversation is constantly met with two opposing sides of Customization vs Balancers. I just want to take a current poll of what players feel about the current Champions Online.
I hate to give "suggestions" but the issues listed below have multiple approaches to the issue of inequality and bias. I will try to deconstruct them as much as possible offering not just MY solutions but others I've heard.
- -
Cited Champions Online Inequalities:
Travel Powers:
- Acrobatics = 1 TP point = Increased Speed
- Flight = 1 TP point = Increased Speed and Free Movement on Z Axis
- Teleport = 1 TP point = Increased Speed and Free Movement on Z Axis and Invisibility
Ranged Characters have 90ft advantage over melee of which a weak Crowd Control accentuates the disparity. Should Ranged powers cost more power points? Do less damage? Cause the caster to be stationary? Should all melee powers be mobile? Should the Melee DPS role have a default (aka costs nothing) crowd control mechanic?
Energy Maintenance has become a joke in champions online, making REC and END lose quite alot of usefulness compared to other stats. Should they review the energy cost/energy return system?
+Offense does much less than +Crits but they compete for the same gear slot. Should they remove the Diminishing Returns on +Offense or lower maximum crit chance/severity?
+Dodge does much more mitigation than +Defense.. both do much more that +CrowdControlResist yet they compete for the same gear slot.
Finally there is the issue of Build inequality. I personally want to see a stricter tier gating system that requires pre-requisite powers. This would both help new players in understanding the freeform system as well as help curb some of the frankenbuilds that happen in the current tiering system.
I am for the ability to choose between any and all of the frameworks available. Unfortunately the powers are not on their proper tiers, and beyond that the access to ANY power on ANY tier still exists for 7/13 of the choices available.
- -
I believe that Champions Online can be properly governed to become a game again. But to be a game, the competition and potential for each player begins from a level playing field.
If you feel that Champions Online Should NOT be balanced why do you feel this way?
If you feel that Champions Online SHOULD be balanced, what solutions can you offer?
P.S. - In no way do I, or should you, expect Cryptic Studios to act on the things said in this thread. It would cost too much money and has no guaranteed benefit.
Post edited by gamehobo on
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@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
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And playing by myself since Aug 2009
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That's the dilemma with superheroes--they're not all created equal. If they were, who'd read comics?
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you want to impose more restrictions that would only harm those trying to make a godo concept build.
just... no
So.. some power is better than another?? well... yea teleport is great..but.. guess what? my characters that are normal humans and pure training.. are not using the best powers, but the ones that make sense.
Regarding travel powers, I think most of them are balanced pretty well. You basically have two columns - Utility and Speed. Super Speed has the least utility (you won't be climbing up any buildings that don't have a fire escape), so it should be the fastest. Flight has great utility - hover, free Z axis movement, so yeah, make it slow. Super Jump has decent utility and decent speed. Should be about even. Acrobatics, being a mix of Super Speed and Super Jump, goes in the middle of those two. I'm not even going to touch on Teleport here because it's in a class all its own.
Ranged vs Melee - I think self-rooting powers should only be for the most powerful attacks, and in a PvP environment, should really only work when you've got someone else rooted. The game tends to favor ranged characters a lot when bosses are involved, in my experience. I know I feel a lot safer fighting Gravitar when I'm 100 damn feet away.
But how do you balance this without neutering ranged characters completely? Nothing really comes to mind. Nothing that really makes sense. Maybe if I activate my Melee power and my opponent was in range when I did so, it would connect regardless of how far they ran away. (Try blocking, you jerk!) It's not realistic, but I don't punch harder in real life if I shake my fist a bit before laying it in.
I'd be all for balancing to prevent frankenbuilds. Kinda. I mean, on one hand, I say let people have their fun. On the other, when every person has a jet to call down and can turn into an angel briefly and fly away... it just looks stupid.
Maybe some sort of built-in powerset synergy could be built in, or maybe "you must have x amount of powers in this power set for this powerset to perform at 100% efficiency." That way you don't have an archer who can make it rain fire while throwing down magical runes to make him invisible, all the while defiling the very air around him while he eats gang members' souls. And he's a robot but that's neither here nor there.
I feel that if such a thing were to happen, many powersets would need more powers to round them out a bit.
Not a very good argument. I have to turn on Super Jump every time I hit the ground.
Design-wise, Teleport is broken. It's the only travel power that requires a stat to be stacked to counter it. It does something no other travel power does (at this point we're talking Teleport and all its derivatives). I personally think Teleport works better as a power with a cooldown than a travel power. Give it all the disadvantages you want, but it still trumps all other travel powers when it comes to utility.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w
Plus, customization is why I play.
And it sucks as a travel power.
Nope. Utility depends on situation and several of the other travel powers mop the floor with teleport in certain situations just as teleport mops the floor with some other travel powers in certain situations. Couple that with the fact that it's not great for actual travel.
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Fair and Balanced are two different things.
Champions on-line, freeform, is absolutely and completely FAIR in all ways. Everyone in a given purchasing tier (Silver or Gold) has exactly the same chances. The only limiting factors are Power Choice and individual Skill.
It is this very fairness that causes the lack of Balance.
You achieve Balance in games such as these by artificially hobbling some characters (for instance, by forcing them to wast time and Skills on utterly useless pre-requisite skills that do nothing but take up space in your Skill Bar for a level or two until you get something better) or artificially buffing others.
By making things more Balanced, you make things less FAIR. I'll take Fairness in this case. And an absolute NO WAY IN HELL to worthless pre-requisite powers. Let me take something I'll be able to use, at least to some degree, for the lifetime of the Character.
'Wen considered the nature of time and understood that the universe is, instant by instant, recreated anew. Therefore, he understood, there is in truth no past, only a memory of the past. Blink your eyes, and the world you see next did not exist when you closed them. Therefore, he said, the only appropriate state of the mind is surprise. The only appropriate state of the heart is joy. The sky you see now, you have never seen before. The perfect moment is now. Be glad of it.' Terry Pratchet The Thief Of Time
Assuming I'm properly understanding the proposed central principle you set forth in your first paragraph, I disagree with it. The principle you set forth is critical in E-Sports and other competitive games, but it is not nearly as important in cooperative games like MMORPGs. Yes, there is a competitive element in virtually all MMORPGs in the form of PvP, but this is usually not the focus of the game as it is in purely competitive online games like League of Legends.
On the other hand, I'm generally in agreement with the specifics of your post. Having all powers be roughly in balance contributes to diversity among character concepts and powers, which I believe is good for the game.
To sum up, I agree there should be some balance to powers in Champions Online, and I find all of your suggestions worthy of consideration. What I don't want to see is the sort of petty squabbling among players about tiny discrepancies in class effectiveness that I see in SWTOR, and the resulting constant tweaking/nerfing of powers by the devs in a vain effort to perfectly balance the classes.
Should games be fair? Some of them yes. Many games that are very successful are far from fair despite being in numerous iterations at this point.
Also, some your travel power example is skewed by negating advantages and disadvantages inherent in each of the travel categories relative to the others. Examples: difference in actual travel speed, need or lack of need to keep activating a power, lack of ability to use a power in conjunction with autorun, differences in combat speed among the powers for breaking line of sight among other things, ability to hover to negate fall damage from knocks...I can keep listing things but that should be enough to illustrate the point.
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How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
I'm basing this on just your guys' comments since I don't use teleport very often - If it's so bad as a travel power, then why is it so widely used? There's gotta be something about it, right?
When I talk about utility, I'm talking within the scope of travel powers. Does it make you move fast? Can you get all the way up there with it? Not only does it do both, but it also allows you to escape combat instantly and bypass mobs to get to your destination quicker. That's more utility than I've seen in any other non-teleport-based travel power.
As a side note - why is it a bad travel power?
Kenpo already explained, it is situational. I almost never pvp, and so, I amost never see teleport being used. It is not a bad travel power, it is a power bad for travel (for people using auto-run at least).
"It's situational" is pretty nebulous.
If "you don't keep moving at full speed if you just want to autorun" makes it a power bad for travel, then Super Jump and Swinging both suck pretty bad, too, right?
Customization VS balancers?
...as far as I understand it, imbalance hurts customization, so the idea that those are the two sides of the argument seems rather silly. This game gives many examples on how imbalance forces you to choose between effectiveness and customization ( for extreme examples, see pvp )... so anyone who tries to argue against balance by saying they are pro-customization really seems to have a poorly thought out understanding of the issue.
If anything it would be Balancers VS People Who Like How Things Are Now Because It Benefits Their Choices.
And yes, not only should games be fair, but they need to be fair. Character potency shouldn't be diminished simply because someone picked the wrong theme.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Because you can take two powers. One for actual travel, and then Teleport for the active defense.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
No worries there hun, the amount of rework it would take would be an entirely new game, and as I stated the Original Post that is not the purpose of this conversation.
I agree with this whole-heartedly.
While discussing other games is verbotten I will say that this made me laugh.
I purposefully used the term "fair" and not "balanced". Playing a Healer is different from playing a tank.
As with many elements of Champions Online I feel that this is a statement of what Gwen Stefani calls "Now that you've got it, what you go do about it?" In which they offer OP worms then proceed to release them from the proverbial can.
I just watched all of this video and it does not at all support your argument when it comes to Champions Online. But more to the point of my post.. why SHOULD Champions Online be unfair?
People do take Teleport while leveling.
I think that it is important to note that each player, assuming you are referring to Freeform builds, already does begin from a level playing field as regards to powers and such. Some of course may have more understanding of, and experience with, the use of said powers....but that is to be expected in any game that has existed for more than a few seconds.
A game does not need for each playing piece to be equal in order for the game itself to be balanced (a pawn is generally nowhere near as powerful as a Queen in chess for example).
That said, I do think that CO would benefit from having some greater semblance of balance between powers of the same tier.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
bad power for travel != bad travel power
Swinging has its avoidance adv, that is very nice certain builds, like 'the master' at.
I only ever saw superjump being used by Hulk clones. If not bad, then at least it's an annoying power in mu opinion. But just like swinging, superjump has a defensive advantage, I admit I have no idea how effective it is.
Those are examples of travelpowers being situational.
Btw, I am all for more balance. But I am unconvinced that travelpowers are what needs to be looked at first.
Yes, it's a great example of how in this game you have to sacrifice effectiveness for "coolness". Teleport is cool, and that's why people take it. They don't take it because it's a good travel power.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Ditto on this. It's always going to me Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock, Jedi, Bugs Bunny, Robot, Ferret, Plasma, Solenoid, etc.
I don't really have an issue with how it works (I would prefer a slower starting speed instead of instant full speed.. but I dont want to bring up my preferences here). I do take issue to its cost. Both purchase cost and energy cost.
Athletics to me should be the cheapest and slowest base travel power for each hero (everyone can run.. even Blob). If you want more than that (move faster, jump higher, fly, swing, add stealth, add aura) should each be assigned their own cost.
Not to mention I do not want to be forced into travel powers. For my concept (a baseline human) I do not want to be forced into swinging or "second style of running". But I receive no compensation for choosing to be "weak". In a system where there is no negative governance for the added effective powers .. this game is continually offering self gimping.
Specifically every new player I'd spoken to speaks to this as an issue with the game's design's "Gimp Yo Self" game design style.
I have used both the Hero System and Mutants & Mastermind system and this deconstructed version is used.
I use Super Jump on most of my characters. It's a great travel power. If your definition of a travel power being bad or annoying is "I have to actually be playing the game for this power to be effective" then I think you're judging the powers in the wrong way.
And I don't think that's what Kenpo meant by the powers being situational. A bit of hold resist or avoidance is effective in any combat situation (unless you're like, not getting hit, but that's a pretty specific situation). What's more effective is a complete threat drop at full speed of your travel power while in the middle of combat. A little bit of avoidance or hold resist doesn't compare to that. If I could Super Jump at full speed and height in the middle of combat, knock all foes in melee range away a few feet, and then have them forget I'm there... that would be comparable.
Some might say it's cool, others might say they like having a free "OH S***" button that also lets them skip trash mobs.
Exactly this. I don't care at all which powers are considered best, I choose powers based on what fits a given character (which can also lead to having redundant or highly situational powers).
I don't understand why you feel you would have to sacrifice your choices..
So you'd propose taking extra powers in lieu of travel powers? Out of curiosity, would you really want to just walk everywhere?
I think that right now, most of the travel powers are balanced just fine. I think it's fine that they exist in their own separate bubble of balance of speed vs. height. That said though, a "build your own" travel power system would be an interesting idea - being able to customize how fast/high you can go by spending points in different areas.
You misunderstood me there, I don't feel that way at all. I'm perfectly fine with my power choices, even if some my characters have powers that are actually redundant for them and very rarely get used at all. As long as the power in question fits the character I have in mind, that's fine.
Well.. now that the game has vehicles.. maybe. But my actual suggestion was to give a "fast run" travel power to every character as a base travel power and enhance it with "Travel Power Advantages"
As I said, the functions of the different powers are fine to me. Their cost in the current system is not. I have no problem with someone who wants to teleport. Just spend the 5 travel advantage points it would cost to get it.
Convenience is not such a strange thing to take into account when rating powers.
Invisibility/teleport is not a threat drop, and doesnt even work against higher level enemies.
That little bit of avoidance is very good for certain builds in certain fight, it being not good for other situations is what makes it situational.
And even for the content where enemies that can not see you for the duration of teleport, you can not attack while using teleport. For team based content, using teleport all the time to make sure you never get hit, makes you a completely useless part of the team.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Fix'd that.
Yes... picking between customization and effectiveness is technically an option.
"Okay everyone... you can have milk or tea. By the way, the tea is made with water from a public toilet that hasn't been cleaned in weeks. But it's fair because everyone could just drink the milk.... oh... there's lactose intolerant people here? ... hey look, vehicles."
Your statement could also be changed to read "It's fair because everyone can choose to pick the good powers" and still essentially retain its original meaning... in fact, it cuts right to the point. So yes, in a very strict numbers (forget all that superpowers stuff) sense, the game is fair.
The question that you then need to ask, is this fair within the context of the game?
This game isn't just about cobbling together the best numbers, it also happens to about this silly little thing called creating characters. It's sort of like going to a chinese buffet, paying, and then having the waiter tell you "Oh, by the way, most of what is on the buffet is just garbage that we got from the dumpster of the resteraunt next door... but it's fair because you can just pick the foods that aren't that."
The question becomes, why have all this variety if it isn't going to be balanced? Why offer people a choice between a 1 dollar bill and a 10 dollar bill? The fact that some powers are just plain better ( oddly enough, the newer ones attached to the most recent archetype ) is then in fact mocking those people who play this game for the customization...much like some pvpers who will mock themebuilders in the vein of "ha ha, you're obsessed with all that be the hero you want to be garbage, and you fail because of it".
It's just too bad that the "make the game so easy that imbalances are mostly irrelevant" plan doesn't pan out in pvp.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
I have effective, optimized toons, and thematic toons with powers that don't synergize well.
The game is so easy that both work fine in PvE once past level 15 or so.
But what about PvP? If you are into that, then you have to build optimized toons--that is the nature of PvP in a game where the "skill" is largely in character construction, not twitch-play.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Sure, but it's not just Teleport that's "inconvenient." You can't wave away all the other bonuses it gets just because of that. All other inconvenient powers don't get it.
You can get your enemies and other players that aren't statted for it to not be able to target you. Temporary or not, it's a threat drop. With most NPCs it's all you need to get completely out of combat. And the fact that it's 100% speed right off the bat means that you can break Line of Sight easier than other travel powers, when it comes to those higher-level enemies.
A person could also just not engage in combat. This isn't specific to Teleport.
Anyway, I don't think Teleport is here to be scrutinized, so I'm going to stop talking about it. Unless it's radically changed, I don't think I'll ever think it's balanced, and the ones who like using it will continue to say it's fine.
Ha!
Edit: The thing is, if there's no content where it matters if you place first or fifth or 20th, then "you survived the fight" is good enough. The balance doesn't really matter for the most part. Now if rewards in things like Bleak Harbinger were based on how much DPS you can pump out, the imbalance would matter.
Only thing I can think of (that still works) that required a high placement in the scoreboard was Takofanes, unless they changed him. Other than that, does placement matter anywhere else?
I used a quote of what you said to say what I want to say.
Interestingly enough, when people want to respond to this concept, they often say "Well, you just can't make it so every build is equal... for example, if someone just takes 14 rank 0, single target damage powers, there's no way that build could be equal to a well built build." My response to that is.... who is doing that? Show me a single person who has that build and actually uses it to play the game...you can't, because people aren't. What theme would that be anyway? Man-O-Many-Bolts?
No, PvP does not require that the game be designed so as to only have a handful of viable powers. Furthermore, the idea that people can build ineffective builds does not transfer into a need for there to only be a few powers that are effective.... in fact, wouldn't that actually exacerbate the problem of people making ineffective builds? After all, the more ineffective powers there are, the more ineffective builds you can make.
The real problem is lack of themed abilities that are useful in pvp. When someone wants to make a fire using character, they might not want a power that requires them to write force powers, or the ability to chuck large bits of concrete, into their character's story They also don't want to have to add into the story "Oh, and even though he can cause mass destruction with fire, he's not that good at actually hurting anyone with it." They do want some defenses for their character, meaningful ones even, but it's just a lot more fun if those defensive abilities fit your theme.
Also, on the note of customization and heals ( just to stick it further to the customization vs balance concept ), I don't really see customization when I see everyone picking the exact same healing powers, with the primary reason being that there isn't anything else. I've thought up a cornucopia of defensive powers that would not only be effective, not only be thematic, but that would also be unique while at the same time not requiring any real innovation because they actually incorporate effects already present in the game engine...so it's not as if something different couldn't be implemented, and "more different things" is pretty much the core of where customization comes from... not "everyone takes the same thing'.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
I agree with on the former point.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
A continuation of the powerset reviews we had until about a year ago would be good enough for me.
Edit: After considering this a bit more, cryptic is not able to do reviews without the need to later nerf the reviewed powers. So only those reviews would not be good.
That's because they're directly linked.
Like you said, once you take all the theme and graphics and interest in particular mechanics out of the equation, the game is fair because everyone has the option to just not pick all the bad powers.
However, you can't take theme out of the equation, not in Champions Online, because afterwards you don't really have a game left that anyone is interested in playing. Fairness has to be taken within the context of "Is the game fair when people are using the builds they want to use?"
I'd prefer a comprehensive all-powersets review so they can establish equality between all the powers in all the powersets. The one-by-one method only managed to somewhat balance the powers against the other powers in their powerset.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
I do think powersets would benefit from more reviews. I do not worry about fairness, though.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
People love their characters and want them to thrive. No one wants to be the weakest player, or completely ineffective. I have NEVER come in first on an open mission, and it's not for a lack of trying. I have never been much use at all in a boss fight, and it's not for lack of trying. I have never been able to survive (or do anything) in against Gravitar type villains, and it's not for lack of trying. It's not just PvP. Champions Online simply doesn't like my build and playstyle.
I think the problem is more foundational than powerset reviews. To me the order of reviews goes:
- - -
I think the history of the game has been a systemic and consistent loosening of the reins of game mechanic governance. Damage has increased. Tanking has become literally invincible. Healing has become irrelevant (except for self-healing).
The reason I am unwilling to listen to the vocal minority that does not desire game fairness is because it has not worked. Champions Online has been an experiment, and the experiment is failing. Less Governed means more bias.. and unless you happen to be one of the very few who benefit from said bias your dissatisfaction will grow.
What is have left in Champions Online is a player-base full of people who benefit from the bias. But far greater numbers have left the game citing build bias as a large contributing factor. Historically, players have returned to the game when there is a new balance pass. This to me points to a player desire or need for fairness. Additionally, existing players respec, re-roll, re-gear, and overall re-engage. All of these are possible monetization techniques.
I simply do not understand those who say Champions Online should actively accept SO much bias at the core of its game and simultaneously claim to want the game to thrive.
- -
Balance ---> Less Balance ----> Less Balance
Thriving Pvp ---> Less PvP ---> Little to No PvP
Active Playerbase ---> Fewer Players ---> Fewer Players
I think the trends are intrinsically linked.
The thing is, what if you want to do your part as a team member, but you also like building for concept. Say you want to play a guy like Punisher, but in order to keep up the DPS with others, and maybe help beat that dumb Inventor nemesis, you have to also throw fire snakes and throw magical sigils on the ground.
I know you can "win" at PVE with a marginal build, but the way the game is, people who want to restrict themselves with theme are kinda punished for doing so. Might be a better idea to cater to the ones that like theme.
Of course powersets might then be homogenized, but I don't think that hurts anyone.
Yeah the game is fair, but I think it's not as fun if you have to break your concept to be good.
I would say they need to be balanced, rather than fair. A subtle difference, but a difference nonetheless.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Yes, and to be fair to cryptic they have done the honorable thing and tried to completely kill interest in pvp through various means so that people don't make the mistake of trying to participate in the hero games.
But is that really a good excuse? If your motto at your job is "Well, so long as nobody notices that I'm doing my job poorly then it's okay...", is that going to lead to good things? In this case, absoloutely not because the need to keep the game easy so that power imbalances don't show is severely holding the game back in terms of giving us something new to do.
Gravitar made an example of this. Gravitar was something new in a few ways, one of which was testing character survivability, and due to this Gravitar has a way of making people with unoptimized builds feel like they're really just a waste of a team slot, and that the person repeatedly rezzing them could probably contribute more dps if they didn't have to constantly be rezzing people who's themes didn't fit the tools the game offers to deal with that fight.
Gravitar isn't pvp. Gravitar is innovation in pve, which ends up highlighting the problems with the unfair distribution of power in the freeform system. We can't push the envelope on pve because imbalance won't let it work, so we're forced to stay in the safe shallow end of the development pool.
I've seen this said many times before as an argument against balance.. and I'm going to go ahead and be sarcastic.
Oh no! You mean the power sets might be turned into a collection of things that you click to either deal damage, reduce incoming damage, or heal yourself? How terrible that would be!
Oh wait, that's what we have right now, with the only things really differentiating them being their graphics, as well as a few "mechanics" that really just require you to take power X if you want to use power Z to its fullest. And of course knocks, the one shining angel of this games systems.
Many people seem to think that balancing the powers means something like "Okay... everything applies trauma and does the same amount of damage". Sure, that's one way to do it, but it's not the only way, and it's not the best way. The problem is that the best way requires creativity and inovation... and I'd be surprised if anyone on the payroll was willing to waste those things on this game anymore.
I'm actually very interested to know what you believe the difference between fair and balanced are... hopefully while citing some examples of things that are fair but unbalanced... and things that are unfair but balanced.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Unfair: People do not have same choices and opportunities.
Balanced: All choices have similar levels of benefit.
Unbalanced: Different choices have significantly different levels of benefit.
Those ideas can combine in four ways.
Right now, I would say CO powers are Fair, but Unbalanced.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
I don't think homogenization is needed. Each framework has something that makes them special. I think that should remain.
For reference.
Elec - Low Energy Ranged DPS
Ice - Crowd Control DPS
Fire - Enviroment Control DPS
Wind - Knock DPS
Force - High Energy All around
Archery - Mobile 100ft DPS
Gadgeteering - Environment Control Support
Munitions - Physical Melee/Range All around
Power Armor - Concurrent Casting System
Telekinesis - Paranormal Melee/Range All Around
Telepathy - Crowd Control (formerly pets and heals)
Celestial - Healing
Darkness - Ranged Paranormal DPS
Sorcery - Buffs
Infernal - DoT DPS
Beastial - Bloody Charge Up Melee
Might - Charge Power Up Melee+Knock
Claws - Charge Up Melee + Crits
Dual Blade - AoE Melee
Single Blade - Bloody Click Melee
Unarmed - Click Melee (All Around Melee)
Earth - ???
Heavy Weapons - ???
- -
These framework characterizations have gotten much more homogenized in powers passes past. But I personally hope that the distinctions between the playstyles grows.
Smackwell forgive the political reference.. not meant to incite a political discussion.
By your definition of fair, homosexuals have the right to marry.. as long as they marry the opposite sex. That is a very unhappy marriage any way you look at it and defeats the purpose of marriage (creating lasting bonds to the benefit of civilization).
In that same vein, being told "you have choices" is bunk without the validity of both choices.
I take Teleport because it makes sense in my head for the toon - for instance, my most recent concept, 404, is "the little man who wasn't there"; his "costume" is a gray flannel suit, his bio reads "ERROR - FILE NOT FOUND", he's a Night Avenger AT who uses Sneak (basically invisibility) most of the time, and his travel power is based on the idea that when he needs to be over there, he is suddenly no longer here. It makes more sense for him than a more useful power like Flight or Jet Pack, or a more fun one like Swinging. (Seriously, Swinging is one of the most fun powers, travel or otherwise, in the whole game.)
As for "fairness", I cannot help but hear Sarah and the Goblin King in my head:
"That's not fair!"
"You say that so often. I wonder what your basis for comparison is."
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Hahaha. :biggrin:
With that said, I do agree with you on defense vs dodge, offense vs crit and innate crowd-control on melee (like we had before On Alert).
Have to disagree on Rec/End, as they actually gained quite a bit of added value from On Alert. They're not the absolute requirement to use any power without energy builder spam that you (seem) to want them to be, but they gained the most from the On Alert changes.
End has a good spec tree and some pretty good Reverbs. Rec has a spec tree and works decently as a secondary superstat, along with fueling Supernatural Power (and no longer competing with Dex/Str). Crit strike gear makes Dex not a necessity for crits, cooldown redux gear makes Int less-great-by-comparison for energy upkeep, softcaps make heavy Str investment redundant except in PvP, softcaps make heavy Ego investment redundant unless you want hyoog Cascade/Geyser knock, Con/Pre are still good for the things they're always good for, etc
Since they aren't eating up half your superstat choices anymore, but they (mainly Rec) aren't baked into nearly every piece of offense gear, I'd wager that builds using Rec/End as one of their superstats have increased since On Alert. As opposed to before, when most everyone would grab Rec from gear minor/talents, take Int, and mostly ignore End unless they were Elec/Wind/Cascade.
The travel power thing, I can't agree with. Now, if Teleport allowed you to attack/heal while phased, or offered actual instantaneous transport, you'd have a much stronger case.
The game, in my opinion, eventually needs to be balanced such that build goals or equivalent benchmarks are available to every theme, if you so choose to use them.
Two examples off the top of my head:
1. Heal debuffs and energy form stripping (for stuff like Ao'Quephoth or however the hell you spell it). Those abilities are on a very limited subset of powers, with almost no thematic flexibility. They make some content (limited though it may be) almost unfinishable without access to one or both of those things. There needs to be more options there that don't require superstrength, magic, dark magic or hitting something with a sword (heavy or otherwise, though lol at Single Blade's form advantage). Why not make it so sufficient CC attempts debuff the energy form, or let Fire have a cauterize or something? Nanite-infused bullets, chi-sealing strike, there's tons of ways those things could be handled. Or, y'know...don't put in a boss with such extreme self-healing that removing his leech form and debuffing his healing is the only way to kill him.
2. Self-heals. If you want to self-heal, you can either be glowy, metally, magicky or fiery. Kinda limiting. While I've pretty much resigned myself to using Conviction or Empathic Healing on damned-near everyone (Conviction I think of as either a temp force field, a second wind/healing surge or something similar;Empathic is fire generally), it would be nice to have more options. Not just healing, but damage mitigation (like Smoochan mentioned). Though that gets into the territory of self-buffing/team-buffing, and that's a forgotten Elder God compared to Crowd Control.
Now, do the two things I mentioned above mean that you have to nerf those healing/debuffing abilities or lock them behind higher/stricter tier requirements?
No. And it doesn't mean you have to move the game back towards a CoX-style pool of limited choices nailed to a railroad track.
A lot of the "frankenbuild" talk that gets thrown around is usually construed as "they use powers that aren't in the same set or T4 framework" or "they use a power combination that doesn't match a preconceived notion". Both of those "reasons" are utter bollocks.
Power groupings are a way to throw a bunch of related powers together in one spot, not a blueprint to build a character with.
The freeform build system doesn't need to end up a casualty of the devs taking the AT way out to balance things. Adding more thematically-neutral or differently-themed options for some of the basic build staples (defenses, self-heals, attacks that hit hard in general) would fix the problem of people making "FrankenBuilds" of the same subset of powers without either sodomizing everything to oblivion with the nerfbat or locking people down to a glorified CoX build.
Talk of "balance" and "suggestions" is almost always a euphemism for "remove the stuff I don't like, because other people shouldn't like what I hate!"
Then again, it's a slow evening.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
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Less whistling, more fighting.
I am not against this, just completely without any hope this will ever happen.
That pretty well convinced me that "this is good for utility, this is good for speed" etc... Don't matter in the slightest to the devs.
I think it goes without saying that the soft caps need to be diminished quite a bit. In fact, it'd be great if defense and offense lost em entirely, so it'd be more possible to build a defensive specced character instead of everyone and their mom being dodge focused. Hell, ATs already lost a few soft caps, and they straight up outperform freeforms in terms of the dps race.
Some people have cried "Balance!" when I point this out, they get less self heals, etc... Well, I pay for mine, so balance can bite me. It's always been a sticking point for me that I'm basically paying money to build a character that's disadvantaged right out of the gate, in terms of numbers.
RIP Caine