nepht for any low lvl AT besides the tank ones or savage its a brutal game. I know from experience.
Ahh but you see I started out as a silver long before I got my LTS. For awhile I was the most vocal silver out there :P
I have one toon of every AT out there all leveled to 40. So I know what ones (in my experience are pants at low levels.
Bad ones at low are The Soldier , The Inferno and I find The Grimore.
Better ones are The Inventor, The Unleashed and The Savage.
And my fave is The Impulse
But yes with ANY AT one must subdue the RAGE QUIT but after that magical number 26 AT's become a lot more potent.
But long ago I did argue for these AT's getting their better powers somewhat sooner than they do. This would make lower mishes easier.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
The game is balanced enough that a level 17 AT can "slog" through Black Fang Docksides and Mindslayer Soul Siphons to hit 40 in a week of casual play, then do UNITY and Q dailies in another week and be geared enough to solo the game. Name any other MMO that lets you do that.
I mean sheesh, no one on Secret World complains that the game is unbalanced because they can't solo Polaris at tier 3. And no one on WoW complains they can't solo Hogger at level 11. It's an MMO, i.e. some content is designed for parties, and an RPG, i.e. some content is designed to rock you until you level up and/or get better gear.
If you want a game where you can solo everything right off the bat, go play Starcraft or something.
The game is balanced enough that a level 17 AT can "slog" through Black Fang Docksides and Mindslayer Soul Siphons to hit 40 in a week of casual play, then do UNITY and Q dailies in another week and be geared enough to solo the game. Name any other MMO that lets you do that.
I mean sheesh, no one on Secret World complains that the game is unbalanced because they can't solo Polaris at tier 3. And no one on WoW complains they can't solo Hogger at level 11. It's an MMO, i.e. some content is designed for parties, and an RPG, i.e. some content is designed to rock you until you level up and/or get better gear.
If you want a game where you can solo everything right off the bat, go play Starcraft or something.
So your suggestion is to do Alerts instead of regular content to level until hitting the cap and then gearing out. Really. Play your way, not mine. Got it.
Comparing Polaris to Serpent Lantern is.....laughable. Ludicrous, even. I wasn't bringing other games into this...so really I'm not even going to address your point further.
However...I can wager(nay, fairly guarantee) most other people on this forum have indeed solo'd Serpent Lantern. Ditto Whiteout. And probably most of the other comic issues or whatever they are. Is that "fair"? Is it balanced? I'd say not.
I'd also like to add....THE GAME POINTED ME RIGHT AT THAT PARTICULAR MISSION AT THAT PARTICULAR LEVEL. If I'm not meant to solo it, TELL ME SO. The game totally did not. In other parts of the game, mission text in red letters specifically advised me to find teammates before attempting mission. I do not ever recall seeing anything like that in Whiteout, Serpent Lantern, Quilopthic land mission(don't recall the name of the arc) or the alternate reality arc with the fake Dr. Destroyer.
I'm not complaining, per se...but I -am- confused about the game design insofar as the aforementioned point.
Pretty much everyone responding has totally missed the point or points I was attempting to make, so I'll be really simple:
Game balance must include the entire leveling arc, not just the level cap.
Balance can(but not must) include teaming.
Fair would be making it so every AT and powerset has the same chance of completing every last bit of content that is level relevant. (But we know that'll never happen)
The aforementioned chance to complete doesn't have to be good, but it should be doable solo in case of teammate shy times.
If any of that is unreasonable....well shucks. All I can say is....it's my opinion on the matter.
Well, you certainly don't create a character at level 40, do you? Certainly not. One must slog through the lower levels to get there, and if the game isn't balanced ALL THE WAY THROUGH....how much retention do you honestly think it'll have?
Lower level characters feeling weaker is one of the few places where this games balance could be considered normal. Plus, there's an easy fix for this... you don't even need to head to the forums and write essays about game balance trying to get the devs to change things... all you need to do is level up. Problem solved.
This is generally the case in level up games... so, I would expect the retention rate, in that regard, would be fine. We all know that the biggest problems with player retention actually happen when they hit 40 and discover there's no end game.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Totally random stat distribution on gear and Questionite 11k gear happened.
And now, this one may be shocking and I'll be probably flamed for writing it...
But CO really do needs its version of Deadmines or Scholomance. :X
A few steps could be taken to improve the mission reward and recognition gear:
1. Make all primaries from level 15-30 have *at least* 1 mod slot, and a small chance at 2 slots. Make all gear from 30-40 have 2 slots, with a miniscule chance at 3 slots.
2. The rewards typically consist of 3 preset pieces of gear and 1 random gear box. If they made it so the preset pieces of gear provided bonuses to 3 stats, they could randomize those stats so every stat is represented at least once. This would mean that it is very likely that at least one piece will provide a bonus to 2 of your stats as well.
3. Add to the recognition vendors for cryin' out loud!!! I, (and I'm sure most of the forum-goers as well), made use of them the first week or so On Alert hit, and haven't really bothered much with them again, once we got what we wanted. BTW, can you please add the missing Dr. Ka chin-strap piece to the SCR vendor while you're at it.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Yes, unfortunately the gear for lower level is not as rich as end game. Yes, the SL mission does not state whether it is for solo or team. These are the flaws unfortunately.
Like you mention in an earlier post. In comic books, not all characters are made to be at the same level. Similarly, the archetypes are very stereotypical superhero classes in that sense. Masterful dodge, devour essence, defiance/invulnerability etc are not available for most of them and some do not even have self heals. Hence it may not be possible to balance the powers and ATs such that they are all able to accomplish the same missions. It is a matter of catering to the lowest, highest denominator or somewhere in between.
The fact that it is still possible to complete the mission with a team means it is still acceptable. Perhaps they may wish to include (recommended for 5 players) but still make it available for soloing. I understand you may not necessarily want to play with a team or sometimes you cannot form one. Sadly, I guess this game was meant for a freeform system and the ATs are more of an entry point.
So your suggestion is to do Alerts instead of regular content to level until hitting the cap and then gearing out. Really. Play your way, not mine. Got it.
Comparing Polaris to Serpent Lantern is.....laughable. Ludicrous, even. I wasn't bringing other games into this...so really I'm not even going to address your point further.
However...I can wager(nay, fairly guarantee) most other people on this forum have indeed solo'd Serpent Lantern. Ditto Whiteout. And probably most of the other comic issues or whatever they are. Is that "fair"? Is it balanced? I'd say not.
I'd also like to add....THE GAME POINTED ME RIGHT AT THAT PARTICULAR MISSION AT THAT PARTICULAR LEVEL. If I'm not meant to solo it, TELL ME SO. The game totally did not. In other parts of the game, mission text in red letters specifically advised me to find teammates before attempting mission. I do not ever recall seeing anything like that in Whiteout, Serpent Lantern, Quilopthic land mission(don't recall the name of the arc) or the alternate reality arc with the fake Dr. Destroyer.
I'm not complaining, per se...but I -am- confused about the game design insofar as the aforementioned point.
Pretty much everyone responding has totally missed the point or points I was attempting to make, so I'll be really simple:
Game balance must include the entire leveling arc, not just the level cap.
Balance can(but not must) include teaming.
Fair would be making it so every AT and powerset has the same chance of completing every last bit of content that is level relevant. (But we know that'll never happen)
The aforementioned chance to complete doesn't have to be good, but it should be doable solo in case of teammate shy times.
If any of that is unreasonable....well shucks. All I can say is....it's my opinion on the matter.
It's good that you find the idea "laughable" and "ludicrous", because that's precisely the reaction you should expect at notion that a level 17 should be able to solo everything just because they have money to throw at the Z-store.
Contrary to post-WoW expectations, games are not obliged to stick a "CAUTION: THIS QUEST CONTAINS DANGEROUS CONTENT THAT MAY BE UNSUITABLE FOR UNDERLEVELLED HEROES" label on content that has a chance of killing your character.
The visual cues should have been clear enough. You are going into a blasted, godforsaken wasteland/heavily fortified base/alien ship full of xenocidal nutjobs. It is the lion's den. Expect to get mauled by a lion. Conversely, be disappointed when the lion turns out to be a puzzycat (why is ***** censored? ) and gets two-shotted.
And the game is still fair because even though a character gets rocked, there is nothing stopping them from going out and gaining a few levels, then coming back to try again.
It would only be unfair if character advancement was gated by the completion of that quest without giving the character the tools to complete it. i.e. a Game Over situation like "You cannot advance unless you complete Quest X", yet Quest X requires tool Y that is not available to your AT.
That situation occurs in PvP, and CO can be considered unfair in that regard - certain ATs and builds in certain timezones will never be able to farm significant amounts of Acclaim. However, in PvE, CO can be considered a fair game because all characters are given equal opportunity to advance to level 40, acquire Heroic/Legion/Vigilante gear, farm Questionite and participate in the economy.
I've leveled plenty of ATs, and the few times where I encountered some actual resistance from the npcs was actually some of the most fun times I had. Instead of just "tab target, press damage power, repeat" I actually ended up having to think for a whole second and figure out a short plan. Running the various adventure packs solo were some pretty fun times, and I did it a lot, so much that I got completely burned out on them.
If you just want to steamroll everything in your path without thinking, I have good news... the vast overwhelming majority of the content in this game will allow you to do that. They were even nice enough to make it so that you can completely avoid any content that might challenge you for even a second, and you can still get to level 40 and get the best gear in the game.
You've been given these options... if you don't take them, then complain to yourself because you're the one making it hard on yourself. Why won't you be fair to yourself?
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
As a reminder, Adventure packs are (or were last I checked) advertised as for level 11+ and for solo or group play.
Someone playing an AT that they paid for, going in to content that is advertised as appropriate for their character, should have some expectation that the content will not be unbeatable for that toon.
That said, I completely agree that not all content will, or even should, be soloable or doable at every level. But AP's were designed for solo and for low level play. Remember, the way group size scaling works, that an AP can actually be MORE difficult in a group than solo (of course a tank and spank group can mitigate the quirks of the scaling system).
I don't agree with all of the complaints about the SL runs described here. I have beaten SL on multiple sub-level 20 AT's (Marksman and Mind) myself, and know others that have done the same. But the argument that SL is not meant for low level characters or solo play is incorrect.
I've leveled plenty of ATs, and the few times where I encountered some actual resistance from the npcs was actually some of the most fun times I had. Instead of just "tab target, press damage power, repeat" I actually ended up having to think for a whole second and figure out a short plan. Running the various adventure packs solo were some pretty fun times
The first step to balancing a game is generating your baselines. "Baselines" are average, expected values of just about everything...
...The point of baselines isn't to limit players or crush their potential; it's to establish the minimum expected values that we eagerly hope players will work to exceed.
I could go back and change the precedent factors that generated it, such as changing the stat peak at a given level, or changing the itemization budget, but if those values don't change, I can't change this value without invalidating everything else that derives from those precedents.
Comments
Totally random stat distribution on gear and Questionite 11k gear happened.
And now, this one may be shocking and I'll be probably flamed for writing it...
But CO really do needs its version of Deadmines or Scholomance. :X
Ahh but you see I started out as a silver long before I got my LTS. For awhile I was the most vocal silver out there :P
I have one toon of every AT out there all leveled to 40. So I know what ones (in my experience are pants at low levels.
Bad ones at low are The Soldier , The Inferno and I find The Grimore.
Better ones are The Inventor, The Unleashed and The Savage.
And my fave is The Impulse
But yes with ANY AT one must subdue the RAGE QUIT but after that magical number 26 AT's become a lot more potent.
But long ago I did argue for these AT's getting their better powers somewhat sooner than they do. This would make lower mishes easier.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
I mean sheesh, no one on Secret World complains that the game is unbalanced because they can't solo Polaris at tier 3. And no one on WoW complains they can't solo Hogger at level 11. It's an MMO, i.e. some content is designed for parties, and an RPG, i.e. some content is designed to rock you until you level up and/or get better gear.
If you want a game where you can solo everything right off the bat, go play Starcraft or something.
So your suggestion is to do Alerts instead of regular content to level until hitting the cap and then gearing out. Really. Play your way, not mine. Got it.
Comparing Polaris to Serpent Lantern is.....laughable. Ludicrous, even. I wasn't bringing other games into this...so really I'm not even going to address your point further.
However...I can wager(nay, fairly guarantee) most other people on this forum have indeed solo'd Serpent Lantern. Ditto Whiteout. And probably most of the other comic issues or whatever they are. Is that "fair"? Is it balanced? I'd say not.
I'd also like to add....THE GAME POINTED ME RIGHT AT THAT PARTICULAR MISSION AT THAT PARTICULAR LEVEL. If I'm not meant to solo it, TELL ME SO. The game totally did not. In other parts of the game, mission text in red letters specifically advised me to find teammates before attempting mission. I do not ever recall seeing anything like that in Whiteout, Serpent Lantern, Quilopthic land mission(don't recall the name of the arc) or the alternate reality arc with the fake Dr. Destroyer.
I'm not complaining, per se...but I -am- confused about the game design insofar as the aforementioned point.
Pretty much everyone responding has totally missed the point or points I was attempting to make, so I'll be really simple:
Game balance must include the entire leveling arc, not just the level cap.
Balance can(but not must) include teaming.
Fair would be making it so every AT and powerset has the same chance of completing every last bit of content that is level relevant. (But we know that'll never happen)
The aforementioned chance to complete doesn't have to be good, but it should be doable solo in case of teammate shy times.
If any of that is unreasonable....well shucks. All I can say is....it's my opinion on the matter.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
Lower level characters feeling weaker is one of the few places where this games balance could be considered normal. Plus, there's an easy fix for this... you don't even need to head to the forums and write essays about game balance trying to get the devs to change things... all you need to do is level up. Problem solved.
This is generally the case in level up games... so, I would expect the retention rate, in that regard, would be fine. We all know that the biggest problems with player retention actually happen when they hit 40 and discover there's no end game.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
A few steps could be taken to improve the mission reward and recognition gear:
1. Make all primaries from level 15-30 have *at least* 1 mod slot, and a small chance at 2 slots. Make all gear from 30-40 have 2 slots, with a miniscule chance at 3 slots.
2. The rewards typically consist of 3 preset pieces of gear and 1 random gear box. If they made it so the preset pieces of gear provided bonuses to 3 stats, they could randomize those stats so every stat is represented at least once. This would mean that it is very likely that at least one piece will provide a bonus to 2 of your stats as well.
3. Add to the recognition vendors for cryin' out loud!!! I, (and I'm sure most of the forum-goers as well), made use of them the first week or so On Alert hit, and haven't really bothered much with them again, once we got what we wanted. BTW, can you please add the missing Dr. Ka chin-strap piece to the SCR vendor while you're at it.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Yes, unfortunately the gear for lower level is not as rich as end game. Yes, the SL mission does not state whether it is for solo or team. These are the flaws unfortunately.
Like you mention in an earlier post. In comic books, not all characters are made to be at the same level. Similarly, the archetypes are very stereotypical superhero classes in that sense. Masterful dodge, devour essence, defiance/invulnerability etc are not available for most of them and some do not even have self heals. Hence it may not be possible to balance the powers and ATs such that they are all able to accomplish the same missions. It is a matter of catering to the lowest, highest denominator or somewhere in between.
The fact that it is still possible to complete the mission with a team means it is still acceptable. Perhaps they may wish to include (recommended for 5 players) but still make it available for soloing. I understand you may not necessarily want to play with a team or sometimes you cannot form one. Sadly, I guess this game was meant for a freeform system and the ATs are more of an entry point.
It's good that you find the idea "laughable" and "ludicrous", because that's precisely the reaction you should expect at notion that a level 17 should be able to solo everything just because they have money to throw at the Z-store.
Contrary to post-WoW expectations, games are not obliged to stick a "CAUTION: THIS QUEST CONTAINS DANGEROUS CONTENT THAT MAY BE UNSUITABLE FOR UNDERLEVELLED HEROES" label on content that has a chance of killing your character.
The visual cues should have been clear enough. You are going into a blasted, godforsaken wasteland/heavily fortified base/alien ship full of xenocidal nutjobs. It is the lion's den. Expect to get mauled by a lion. Conversely, be disappointed when the lion turns out to be a puzzycat (why is ***** censored?
And the game is still fair because even though a character gets rocked, there is nothing stopping them from going out and gaining a few levels, then coming back to try again.
It would only be unfair if character advancement was gated by the completion of that quest without giving the character the tools to complete it. i.e. a Game Over situation like "You cannot advance unless you complete Quest X", yet Quest X requires tool Y that is not available to your AT.
That situation occurs in PvP, and CO can be considered unfair in that regard - certain ATs and builds in certain timezones will never be able to farm significant amounts of Acclaim. However, in PvE, CO can be considered a fair game because all characters are given equal opportunity to advance to level 40, acquire Heroic/Legion/Vigilante gear, farm Questionite and participate in the economy.
If you just want to steamroll everything in your path without thinking, I have good news... the vast overwhelming majority of the content in this game will allow you to do that. They were even nice enough to make it so that you can completely avoid any content that might challenge you for even a second, and you can still get to level 40 and get the best gear in the game.
You've been given these options... if you don't take them, then complain to yourself because you're the one making it hard on yourself. Why won't you be fair to yourself?
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Really you don't know why that word is censored?:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::
Someone playing an AT that they paid for, going in to content that is advertised as appropriate for their character, should have some expectation that the content will not be unbeatable for that toon.
That said, I completely agree that not all content will, or even should, be soloable or doable at every level. But AP's were designed for solo and for low level play. Remember, the way group size scaling works, that an AP can actually be MORE difficult in a group than solo (of course a tank and spank group can mitigate the quirks of the scaling system).
I don't agree with all of the complaints about the SL runs described here. I have beaten SL on multiple sub-level 20 AT's (Marksman and Mind) myself, and know others that have done the same. But the argument that SL is not meant for low level characters or solo play is incorrect.
Amen to that.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
I do, but it's ridiculous because the word has many uses in a non-vulgar/sexual context.
Squish mitten.
....what? I filled my mitten with chocolate pudding, now it goes squish.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
And I learned a new word on urbandictionary today
This is from the ORIGINAL systems designer for CO. The exact thing he feared happening.. happened. And the result is.. Uncle Cluster.