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Daniel Stahl is giving interviews again.
Terilynn asks Dan a direct question about STO's staffing levels in the face of Neverwinter's launch. Dan's answer has me convinced:
Cryptic had definite plans to shut Champions Online down. It would have happened by now, but NCSoft forced them to change their plans by closing City of Heroes first.
At this point, we need to demand answers from Jack Emmert and Brad Stokan on the future of this game and this community.
Terilynn asks Dan a direct question about STO's staffing levels in the face of Neverwinter's launch. Dan's answer has me convinced:
Cryptic had definite plans to shut Champions Online down. It would have happened by now, but NCSoft forced them to change their plans by closing City of Heroes first.
At this point, we need to demand answers from Jack Emmert and Brad Stokan on the future of this game and this community.
Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
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I do not see where you are getting this idea.
All they're just saying is that they can move people from job to job like they have been doing because their engine is similar. Which means that once Neverwinter is launched, developer levels will normalize. Right now it's all over at NW and STO.
Caliga's PRIMUS Database! --XXX--The Caliga Build: Threatening Haymakers! --XXX-- Caliga and Conquer fanart!
Don't get me wrong, it's probably true, but there is no basis for that anywhere in the interview.
"Every criticism, judgment, diagnosis, and expression of anger is the tragic expression of an unmet need." - Marshall Rosenberg
Oh wait, leme make a small edit in that quote so that it fits within the context of this game and not STO:
"Every criticism, judgment, diagnosis, and expression of anger is the tragic expression of an unmet need, as long as you give a damn." - Jenny's edit
There was nothing in that article that even came close to your quote. Nice try in stirring up trouble but I guess we are just too smart for you.
Why do you think developer levels will normalize?
And it's kind of bare in STO, too. (Foundry and KDF, for example)
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Deep down in my heart. I believe.
A lizard can dream ;_;
Some players have expressed fears that there was a bleed-off of personnel from CO when Neverwinter entered development... but nobody cares about those comic book nerds, so don't bother asking about it during the interview...
I was hoping his response would end with "For example, this didn't happen with Champions Online when STO was launched so..."
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Normalize, not even out. It probably came from how things have worked here in the past. The main difference, IMO, this time is that STO launched before the end of the year and NWO spilled over into the next year, therefore extending the "Cryptic CO Vacation 2012" into 2013.
Now this might not be the case but I choose to optimistically(somewhat) follow how things have played out here in the past. If I'm wrong...well...then we're doomed. I dunno. <shrugs>
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
Or normalize in that "the official headcount for X game is 30, and is currently running on 10 because of NW. In the coming year we will normalize that headcount officially. To 10."
*Sometimes jokes sting with so many hints of the truth that they hurt to make. This would be one such situation.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
Neither do I, yet I can see how someone might interpret this response Dan Stahl provided.
So Cryptic ramping up the development staff and going to a 6 day work week is a response to the success of STO. There seems to have been very little development activity here. Does that mean CO is not doing so well?
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So where are the CO devs going to come from? A hiring binge? Stahl:
Does that sound like hiring to enlarge the dev team to you? Sounds to me like the same game-shuffling that's always gone on, with little to no new openings.
And none of this excuses the silence.
Don't you think, with all the sturm und drang in here since Paragon's Black Friday at the end of August, that Stokan couldn't at least pop in to say "Hey, I know things are thin right now, but we have big plans for the new year."? We don't even merit that much. All we get is one lockbox-shilling event after another until... what?
Last night, on Twitter, I proposed "Reach For the Sky" by Social Distortion as an appropriate theme song for this game. Fatalistic, yet defiant. I don't want to see the day it changes to "God Save the Queen" by The Sex Pistols, but Johnny Rotten sneering "No future for you!" is cutting closer to the truth every day Emmert and Stokan say nothing.
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
Based on my math, CO has max 9 "assigned" (51+9=60/2=30). How many it actually has before we "normalize," prolly 3 - the folks who post over on PTS.
(Splo posted, and he's still a Crytic Dev who reads our forums, but I'm under no illusion that he actually still works for CO)
It's not the first time this has happened.
(The other $64,000 question is that Cryptic hasn't handled an original IP since City of Heroes, and most of the guys behind that IP aren't here. So considering we haven't heard Cryptic attached to any other IPs and the only one they own is Champions, well, maybe...)
And this can be said about this game. Champions COULD be so much better if they did this...but it's not happening, obviously. Why?
According to this quote, it's because Champions isn't "performing". There's no development here because this game is a risk investment to them. At least....that's what I read out of it and apply this logic to Champions Online.
I'd really like Emmert to come here and bullspit us too. I want to hear how he'll try to whitewash this.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
The flip side being, if Cryptic doesn't add anything to the game, there is no growth and thereby no new players/money coming in.
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You may be right... and you may be wrong. But there is no use worrying about it. Just go enjoy the game for as long as you can.
@Tiresias
Tiresias: Celestial/Darkness (Support)
Ravish: Bestial/Might/Unarmed (Tank)
I swear, using again and again the same excuse is what makes Cryptic one of the most, in not the most, pathetic game companies. And I'm not talking about developers, but about their executives.
I've seen it before.
We won't invest in KDF because it's not "performing.
Or we won't invest in CO PvP because it's not "performing".
Whatever.
This way of thinking makes Cryptic mediocre, making them releasing an unfinished game with only 1,5 factions instead of full 2 (hello, KDF). And thinking that this is okay.
No wonder that CoX needed to be sold to NCSoft to be improved (aside of NCSoft dropping idiot ball by closing it).
It's not too difficult to see this pattern. I only wonder how quick it will show in NWN - with this very cryptic way of thinking, game's already doomed before it even starts.
Do Blizzard ditched Horde, because I wasn't "performing" and less people were playing it? No. They tried to even player numbers. And even now SOE makes new investments in DCUO, to actually gain more players.
This is how things are done. And since Cryptic definitively is unable to understand it, they will never produce anything of lasting value.
And before somebody says that other game companies have more resources and money.
Yup, they have. Because they earned it.
And you should really try Klingon Defence Force, a faction which is not closely supervised by Star Trek owners.
It's pretty much like playing CO inside of STO.
Since I started worked on Champions Online, never once has anyone mentioned shutting it down.
While we are not a blockbuster like STO, we are profitable and making content within our means.
Would I like for Champions to make more money? Of course. I will do what I can to help it reach that goal, because this is a business at the end of the day. I will be trying to both increase value for existing players, bring in new players, and get players to buy new things. It's my job, and I like being good at my job.
That being said, though, Champions is performing well with regard to expectations. I can't divulge any numbers, and I don't know every number, but no one's told me to start panicking. Right now, the chief concern is putting together a communication plan -- and yes, we're working on that. I've been talking with forumites and reading the posts, and we're going to find ways to communicate without tearing the devs away from making content.
As for Dan Stahl's comments, as other people have noted, he isn't saying anything about Champions. It seems a pretty big leap to take much from the interview.
I'll accept this as a proper answer about any assumptions that me or anyone else have made about the game shutting down. If you guys at Cryptic fix the communication issues you have with Champions I'm sure it will help pretty much every aspect. The only doubt is that you guys don't seem to have a problem with communicating with the players of STO.
CoX refugee here, and I have to say your visibility on the forums and in the game has been very appreciated.
We were spoiled by easy and constant communication with our devs and generally unconcerned to ambivalent about the lack of communication from NCSoft. So the much more limited communication with the CO staff and Cryptic's and PWE's silence on CO compared to STO and NWN could be worrisome to those who are now rightfully gun-shy of investing in a new game. Caustic forum communities don't help but are nothing new nor unique to this game.
As wary as I am, I'm getting to like this game. Fortunately it shares an engine with two newer games so unlike CoX it hasn't painted itself into a corner. I don't need to see big changes all the time (and I was not a fan of the post-alpha incarnate system and raids). As long as things get poked and prodded and generally fixed I'll be satisfied with the occasional chunk of new content.
I'd certainly like to donate my time to help make this work.
This has me thinking seriously about re-subscribing and totally alting-out, Mr. Turtle. I am a big fan of Champions Online, want to see its potential truly reached and am willing to spend some G. A lot of us have been very disheartened. But that is only because we LOVES us some Champions and have been feeling a little neglected of late. Thanks for the input.
Yep--thanks for commenting on this thread. Trailturtle's posts really do mean a lot.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
See this explains a lot. If you are throwing bodies at QA, you'll either knock the other QA testers out or scare the jeebus out of them. No one wants a body thrown at them. Also, bodies can't actually QA, they need fingers and hands and eyeballs for that. :biggrin:
@Lohr
I've got a meeting tentatively planned for Monday, and crowdsourcing is definitely part of the agenda. There are a couple ideas that, if we end up going forward with them, would hugely benefit from player involvement, especially in roles like spotting -- "Hey, here's this thing that exists in-game that matches the criteria TrailTurtle mentioned." The devs might know more about the backend of the game, but in terms of creativity and finding new ways to do that, players are always better.
I can't speak for Cryptic QA, but at PWE, our QA teams are downstairs (relative to my vantage point). In fact, we might be able to take out a few with a well-placed and over-sized slinky. :biggrin:
On the topic of getting players to buy things. I have always been willing to buy things. As long as I'm actually BUYING the thing in question and not buying a CHANCE at the thing in question. If you want my money, you are going to have to actually offer something up for sale, at a reasonable price. If you offer something that I want for sale for a reasonable price, I will purchase it. I'm not paying the equivalent of $18 for an item in a game.. $5 possible but it had better be spectacular, $2 maybe, $1 no problem. I might be willing to pay more for an item I can access account wide, but not much more. But at the rate at which you have been putting out things that I would be willing to pay for and with the stipend I have saved up, it is going to take a while for you to burn through my supply so that I get to the point where I have to pay money to get something. If something costs more than I feel it is worth to me, I'm not going to buy it.
Tearing the devs away from their work might be what is needful every now and again. No one can sit and stare at lines of code for interminable hours without a break. and it wouldn't take more than five minutes out of their time to pop on here. They wouldn't have to read the entirety of the forums. You are busy perusing the forums on a regular basis, take 30 seconds to fire off an email to an appropriate dev with a link in it to the forum post they might need to respond to. They can read that post/thread and respond in just a couple of minutes. It really is that simple. Maybe they might need to check and see if they are allowed to reveal a certain piece of information but if not they can leave that piece out and at least say "Hi, we are aware of this issue" or "Hi, thanks for the kudos" or "Hi, we were NOT aware of that issue and will look into it."
And Dan Stahl can take a flying leap. I quit Star Trek Online when it became Star Farming Online and I'm surely not going back to it now that it is Star Farming Online With Lockboxes! I've already got one foot out the door here because of Grindonite and lockboxes. If it wasn't for all the money I've poured into this game, I'd already be gone.
The Forumite formerly known as Galeforce.
If you want my money, there is a fairly simple way to get it since I am fairly free with how I spend it. First, produce something I consider to be worth buying. Second, offer it up for sale. Don't lock it behind a gambling scam. If I want something, I am perfectly happy to pay for it. But I will not purchase a CHANCE to get it, When I pay money, I have a perfectly logical right to expect to get what I want.
Yep. The development team at Paragon Studios were caught pretty flat-footed too. They had a new issue
Man. This sounds SO familiar Zwill...err...TrailTurtle...
No. Dan's comments are attributed to Cryptic.
Glad to see CO has broken off and formed its own studio...
CO has had many opportunities to succeed. However, most of them have been bungled or pissed away (especially once Jackie-boy had a new shiny starship to play with). And because of COURSE that COULDN'T be Cryptic's fault (Oh no! No way! Never!) it must just mean that the property itself isn't well received.
The fact is, the game released half-done and then nerfed it on Day 0. That soured would-be players immediately.
And when they got stung for it, did they learn?
Nope. They tried to wring MORE out of their players right away. That drove even more players away.
Pretty much from the get-go, this game has been focused on "what'll make the most cash" at the expense of "What will make players WANT to play this game".
At this point, the only things keeping CO alive is the it's being milked for every last cent and the fact that Cryptic is contractually obligated to turn back the Champions IP to Hero Games if they closed down CO.
"Champions-Online and Star Trek Online contained hundreds of hours of mediocre content!"
and "nothing was polished".
--Jack Emmert
Story goes that the people with Paragon didn't get much notice either.
I won't blame you TT but those above you and around you really do not seem to understand this player base.
Do it. Then go over to cryptic and do it again. And get it on video.
@Lohr
I'd like to second this. Please, enough with the lockboxes already.
It doesn't seem like STO is going to get much better. There looks to be even MORE rep farming/grinds and lockboxes in store for STO.
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Two things worth noting:
1) One of my rules is that as a Community Manager, my job is to know everything about everything. At PWE, I'm hearing nothing about threats to Champions, and I'm hearing that they're watching how I/we progress towards goals with positive vibes.
2) Disagree. It's not a gold mine, and I don't have all the data, but we're not in financial danger. This game doesn't survive reluctantly, or guiltily, or as a write-off: Champions keeps running on its own merits.
I'd like to know where this jewel of information comes from. Can you supply link to info, please?
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
Trail...you're the ONLY one that speaks to us on a regular basis. Nobody else does. Or seems to care to. At this point, the above statement makes sense because you are the only one drawing a salary from this game's intake. Which I have ZERO problem with.
(Also, please note the above statement is PURE CONJECTURE, with the only exception being that zero problem statement!!)
However, it's a combination of the amount of time it has been since any new content came down the pipe, the lack of communication, forgotten bug fixes, and general shoving lockboxes down the throats of the customers that is souring most everyone to the game and the developers. (I think. Again, conjecture solely based on what I pick up from the forums and ingame channel chat. NOT ZONE CHAT, dear gods. )
To hear you say you're trying is good news indeed...but it's also just you saying it. Hope only goes so far, my friend. As fantastic as you are, you're still just one man against the corporation. I think most people truly are glad to hear your announcements concerning the game....I know I am....but after so much abuse, the dog still expects the kick, not the kiss, if you understand my meaning.
In closing, I'd like to believe this game will get the attention it deserves..but from the history of lack of action and what is currently happening...the only conclusion I can draw is.....not good. I won't even say what I really think, just that it is not good news.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
Wow this is pure awesomeness! Much needed in these times of rampant forum negativity.
Any spoiler about what we'll get in 2013 please?
Honestly, I know it's probably frustrating for you as well, but if you can't even tell us how many folks Cryptic has working on CO it doesn't fill me with confidence.
If the devs are really working their asses off with everything they've got with little time between basic duties and QA and the biggest addition we've gotten has been stuff we allegedly don't really want and a mission that takes all of 60 seconds to complete as the prelude to our big "event" - the first event in like a year, that doesn't really boad well for either their ability or numbers.
I get that you guys are strapped, but what happened with the CoX shut down? Why was there not, at the very least, a mass mailing being sent out to everyone and their mother? Or some sort of a refer a friend program "conveniently" in place "coincidentally" announced around the same time as the CoX closure?
I mean, you guys see what we see right? Why it looks like there's nobody really trying? How the excuses of "we just aren't making that much money" really don't mean anything when STO has been getting injections since before CO even launched?
How it feels like the players really aren't being listened to when we ask for motorcycles that can take us from point A to point B and instead get Tank Devices?
I mean, I get it, you guys need to make money, but why can't we even get a post saying, "we hear you guys, but the population is buying more keys/mods/whatevers than costumes/cosmetics/APs/whatevers" before things blow up like this?
Why is CO always in such a crappy a reactive position? Why do you guys need yet another communication reformatting whatever the hell? This is like the 5th time over that you guys have "hammered out a solution."
And where the hell is Stokan?
RIP Caine
He needs to answer why he doesn't listen to his player base and why PWE wont take a chance at building this game up. isn't the saying "to make money you have to spend money?"
I love this game, but I just feel its being ran into the ground, and I hate feeling that way. There are SOOO many creative people here, I like to think I am too. I just wish it felt like our voices were heard.
Trailturtle, thank for letting us know that communication is being looked at. The notification provides more reassurance to players then you know.
As for community help, I would like to remind you and other staff that I am more than willing to help the community in anyway I can. I think It'd be fun to help with something aside from just managing the contests in-game.
Flare's guide to hosting and judging costume contests!
(link under construction)
Trailturtle, I especially owe you apologies and gratitude. There are days a job like yours can be thankless, and I made this one of those days for you. You're words have restored some hope for folks like me who love this community and want to see it thrive.
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
i as well aplogise for my behavior. i can only say it is becuase i care deeply for this game. and belive this game can be soo much more then what it is. my emotions get out of hand time to time
tt, i want to thank you for coming in here and telling us what us. for me that the best thing i could/want and hope for. im very gratiful for that.