Just couldn't help catching the start of this since I know it was me who stated hitting like a kitten. What SHOULD a might tank spec in these days,in DEX primary??
Also, new Imbue feels more or less like a desperation super-mode. Should move it to Munitions, call it Last Stand, and figure out something else for Imbue.
sorry to bring up the "other" game again..but the new imbue smells of the old defiance.
Also, new Imbue feels more or less like a desperation super-mode. Should move it to Munitions, call it Last Stand, and figure out something else for Imbue.
Actually i have to agree with this. I hate to bring up COX again *cringe* but it reminds me of the original blaster defiance.
Im not apposed to the changes to imbue per se, but i do feel like the changes make it less of a "celestial frame work" power and like you said more of a "offensive desperation" power.
One of imbues design problems in the past was that it lent it self to use out side or the celestial framework or healing play-style.
As Imbue continues to be tweaked on PTS i hope that a healing bonus is added to it or something is done to tie it in with its framework while keeping it useful in free-from builds.
Would it be possible to give Imbue some kind of special function when used from support role? I don't want the new imbue to feel like it was designed from the ground up to be an offensive power.
EDIT:
Ninjaed by gonzolo4584
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
What I want, is INTELLIGENT observation of the Cottage Rule, in moderation, with a side of not nerfing things by more than half their yield in a single swoop. This should be common sense, but it's not. If Imbue is an on next hit damage boost, it should remain an on next hit damage boost. If its yield is decreased, it shouldn't be by a HUGE GIGANTIC NERFHAMMER.
Xao:
I agree with you about general balancing principles, but I'm willing to bet my Q that the Imbue change has next to nothing to do with design principles. It has everything to do with production schedules.
Let's face it, CO has been understaffed for quite some time. As it stands, it looks like Crush is the only systems designer left. Killing Imbue was probably a lot more schedule-friendly than finding the time to track down and fix all the internal bugs and issues with Imbue. Considering there were at least 2 major ones that interact with totally different systems (not being consumed by heals, being additive with base severity), Crush throwing out Imbue and reworking it entirely was probably the best solution available with the resources CO has on the dev side right now. And I assure you, the devs probably know that this isn't the best solution overall for Imbue, but it is the best solution with what they have available.
Welcome to the dark side of game development. It doesn't matter what you want to do, what matters is what you can actually get done in the time frame allotted.
Alright, in case it still isn't clear, I'm going to repeat what I've said about half a dozen times over the course of this thread:
I'm sick of watching the devs butcher things because of whining. This isn't an adjustment, this is a chop shop rework, an adjustment was what they did with Forms. This is bad, this is something you don't do, because it's anti-design.
Yes, a huge overhaul of a bunch of existing mechanics is more of an adjustment, when compared to completely altering the functionality of an existing power into something that vaguely resembles what it originally was. What they did to old Eyebeams is less of a butchering than this.
I don't even understand how the PvPers can't comprehend this, because while melee got dumped on everywhere, PvP is where it got screwed over the hardest.
I also cant comprehend how we're back to doing this so frequently. I thought we were finally past this.
What I want, is INTELLIGENT observation of the Cottage Rule, in moderation, with a side of not nerfing things by more than half their yield in a single swoop. This should be common sense, but it's not. If Imbue is an on next hit damage boost, it should remain an on next hit damage boost. If its yield is decreased, it shouldn't be by a HUGE GIGANTIC NERFHAMMER.
Yes, this actually applies to buffing things too. It also has exceptions to it, and while I could go listing them it would take me pages to list every exception ever learned by a game developer I've seen. There's also a ton of grey area, too. The basic point is this: In most cases, changing a power's core functionality and/or original purpose to something different, is BAD. You can even BUFF the power in the process, it's still BAD. You always run the risk of pissing off a bunch of people when something they have becomes something different, be it because it broke a build, doesn't fit concept any more, or in general just isn't as fun.
This is a something that I thought this game got over ages ago, but here we are with it again. You don't solve a problem by deleting it, or changing it completely, ever.
Isn't the, "true purpose," (phrase taken from your link to the cottage rule) of Imbue to provide a short term damage buff ?
What I am seeing is that Imbue is still going to fulfill its true purpose to a lesser degree.
"An existing power will not have its core functionality and purpose changed, though its strength may be altered and effects secondary to the power's true purpose may be added or removed."
So Imbue will still fulfill its core purpose of increasing damage. Its core functionality is that it did so through increases to critical hit chance and severity. That is not changing. The new imbue is still using the core functionality of critical hits to fulfill its core purpose of increasing damage.
This cottage rule also states that a power's, "strength may be altered."
This is what is happening.
In summary:
Old Imbue: Provided a critical hit chance increase.
New Imbue: Provides a smaller critical hit chance increase but increases its duration.
Old Imbue: Provided a critical hit severity increase.
New Imbue: Provides a smaller critical hit severity increase but increases its duration.
Pretty solid adherence to the cottage rule actually.
As a secondary effect of these changes, since Crit damage is not part of the additive damage buff diminishing returns mode,l Imbue has the potential, depending on how the development cycle pans out, to be the best active offense in the game because most builds (that Ive seen-including ATs) are already pushing heavily into DR with their various additive damage buffs.
An active offense that replaces additive bonuses with multiplicative has truly amazing potential.
I suppose that depends on whether or not you consider a net, true damage increase of 9% to be, "a lot."
It means alot when my crit chance nears 50% and my severity nears 120%. You forget, Severity is a multiplier increase, crit chance is a flat chance, in correlation, think of someone with 60/80 dodge avoidance stacking 24% dodge (EM) onto their build for almost always. Makes a difference, don't it?
It means alot when my crit chance nears 50% and my severity nears 120%. You forget, Severity is a multiplier increase, crit chance is a flat chance, in correlation, think of someone with 60/80 dodge avoidance stacking 24% dodge (EM) onto their build for almost always. Makes a difference, don't it?
It means alot when my crit chance nears 50% and my severity nears 120%. You forget, Severity is a multiplier increase, crit chance is a flat chance, in correlation, think of someone with 60/80 dodge avoidance stacking 24% dodge (EM) onto their build for almost always. Makes a difference, don't it?
...Seeing as we're getting pretty close to the OTHER problem with new Imbue here, I suppose I should spill my thoughts on the OTHER reason this is a bad change. Since after all, we're headed in that direction, anyway, and I don't see reason keeping my mouth shut in hopes this goes live and I turn out to be right.
New imbue provides the GREATEST real world benefit to builds on the extremes of the crit scale. That is to say, builds with 0 or near 0 crit chance, to which the average DPS increase from a maxed imbue is closer to 25%, and builds that push extreme amounts of crit chance, which will now have a near 100% chance (or an ACTUAL 100% chance in some rare cases) to crit with every single attack, making it an even more borked version of old imbue since it lasts much, much longer, even if you take into account non-consuming powers.
STILL LIKING THE SOUND OF YOUR HORRIBLE CHANGE NOW?
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
1) Change its cooldown to 90 seconds to standarize it.
2) Have it grant 42/50/60% all damage strength to standardize it.
3) Have it grant standard breakfree damage.
3) Remove energy costs to standardize it.
4) Possibly NERF the max amount of crit/severity so it doesn't make Ice Sheath and LocknLoad look like the dummies' picks, I recomend 20/20 @ 50% hp or even lower.
...Seeing as we're getting pretty close to the OTHER problem with new Imbue here, I suppose I should spill my thoughts on the OTHER reason this is a bad change. Since after all, we're headed in that direction, anyway, and I don't see reason keeping my mouth shut in hopes this goes live and I turn out to be right.
New imbue provides the GREATEST real world benefit to builds on the extremes of the crit scale. That is to say, builds with 0 or near 0 crit chance, to which the average DPS increase from a maxed imbue is closer to 25%, and builds that push extreme amounts of crit chance, which will now have a near 100% chance (or an ACTUAL 100% chance in some rare cases) to crit with every single attack, making it an even more borked version of old imbue since it lasts much, much longer, even if you take into account non-consuming powers.
STILL LIKING THE SOUND OF YOUR HORRIBLE CHANGE NOW?
I do have to agree that Imbue's time to get a rework was here.
Problem is, I don't see why it had to be an Active Offense. Last I checked, the problem was it wasn't dropping when you healed, so it was constant Crit-Heal.
Sounds like the people taking the hardest hit on this are:
Con-based PVP snipers.
Healers.
I say focus on the healers. PvP in this game is so broken, and so many PvPers are ridiculously obsessive about ANY changes to their clown builds- you won't make them happy. "Oh noes, you tried to create balance in the game! Now I don't WIN!!! Boo!" *Ragequit, burn self with cigarettes wearing mom's nightgown*
Now you're bending things out of shape, I see no reason to continue arguing with you.
Of course you don't. Your argument regarding the application of the cottage rule has been shown to lack merit.
1) It still fulfills its core purpose of increasing the effect of powers that can crit.
2) It fulfills its purpose using the core functionality of the critical hit system.
3) It continues to affect next hit powers.
The changes to this power are primarily matters of degree and duration.
Now, that said, I thought that Imbue, as it existed previously, was a decent power that would have been better served by tweaks and fixes rather than the changes we got. But what we got does adhere to the cottage rule.
so many PvPers are ridiculously obsessive about ANY changes to their clown builds- you won't make them happy. "Oh noes, you tried to create balance in the game! Now I don't WIN!!! Boo!" *Ragequit, burn self with cigarettes wearing mom's nightgown*
Actually those most focused on and calling for balance have, historically, been the PvP community. The most common arguments that balance doesnt matter have been from PVEers pointing out that NPCs dont care about facing an unbalanced or OP build/power.
I do have to agree that Imbue's time to get a rework was here.
Problem is, I don't see why it had to be an Active Offense. Last I checked, the problem was it wasn't dropping when you healed, so it was constant Crit-Heal.
Sounds like the people taking the hardest hit on this are:
Con-based PVP snipers.
Healers.
I say focus on the healers. PvP in this game is so broken, and so many PvPers are ridiculously obsessive about ANY changes to their clown builds- you won't make them happy. "Oh noes, you tried to create balance in the game! Now I don't WIN!!! Boo!" *Ragequit, burn self with cigarettes wearing mom's nightgown*
They should've simply fixzed it, but the internal problems imbue caused as an ONH have been detrimental, can they fix Gas Arrow now that Imbue isn't ONH anymore?
I know you are. I've been aware of it since they posted the notes. The first thing I thought was "Oh, those AoPM builds already using imbue are going to love the hell out of this change."
The hilarious part, is it SUCKS for mid line builds, and really does end up being around a 9% damage increase with nothing to make up for that. Like I keep saying, average builds that don't intentionally break EVERY facet of the game get SCREWED OVER by this crap. Every time. Like clockwork.
I was HOPING it wouldn't come out in the wash before the power went live, because that would keep people griping about imbue a bit longer, so hopefully the power butchering doesn't move to another power quite so soon. Imbue is lost, I'm still mad, but imbue is lost. This stuff always makes it off the PTS in some form.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
I know you are. I've been aware of it since they posted the notes. The first thing I thought was "Oh, those AoPM builds already using imbue are going to love the hell out of this change."
The hilarious part, is it SUCKS for mid line builds, and really does end up being around a 9% damage increase with nothing to make up for that. Like I keep saying, average builds that don't intentionally break EVERY facet of the game get SCREWED OVER by this crap. Every time. Like clockwork.
I was HOPING it wouldn't come out in the wash before the power went live, because that would keep people griping about imbue a bit longer, so hopefully the power butchering doesn't move to another power quite so soon. Imbue is lost, I'm still mad, but imbue is lost. This stuff always makes it off the PTS in some form.
Actually, all those AoPM min/maxers are swapping to Ego Surge with Nimble Mind advantage, which scales off con, not rec like it technically should, its pretty much Imbue's little bro, this imbue change benefits the DPS folk most of all, or naturally high crit types (40%+). Especially low con.
Of course you don't. Your argument regarding the application of the cottage rule has been shown to lack merit.
No it hasn't. All you've done is tried to make one piece of core functionality look like it's the whole thing. You try this all you wish, but it doesn't change the solid fact that Imbue is an On-Next-Hit, this IS core functionality, and it's being changed.
In fact, I'd argue that crits aren't even a notable part of the core functionality. They're the delivery method, sure, but what makes the power different from others? What makes it interesting? On-Next-Hit.
Let's put it this way: You could change it to be a flat, multiplicative damage buff that disables crits, paint "CRITICAL HIT" on the UI and no one would notice this difference. Changing it to an active offense? There's no way you're hiding that.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
I honestly don't see what all the ******** is about. PvE'er mysself here, and I'm not noticing much of a difference damagewise. In fact, I rather like Imbue more now, because you can crit more often than once while the buff's active. HW build, STR CON/REC, and I get around 10-11k crits both with Imbue as is on live, and as is on PTS.
Actually, all those AoPM min/maxers are swapping to Ego Surge with Nimble Mind advantage, which scales off con, not rec like it technically should, its pretty much Imbue's little bro, this imbue change benefits the DPS folk most of all, or naturally high crit types (40%+). Especially low con.
I'm not buying it. The reason people use Imbue is for guaranteed crits. On heals, and spikes, at the same time, if you're exploiting. It's not going to replace Ascension, but I do see it eventually becoming the thing to have as your backup AO.
What's going to happen here is the "league cycle:" People abandon the recently changed/nerfed thing whether it sucks or not, especially if it does suck under certain circumstances, but is still amazing under others.
If it really does suck, we don't hear about it until it gets buffed again, besides griping over how bad it is. If it doesn't suck people realize this about 2-6 months down the line and suddenly it's being cried about again. The time it takes for this to happen is generally relative to how bad the nerf was, and if it's still good in some ways and not others, what ways it's still good. Other factors can include cyclical nerfing around it, as well as new synergies being found.
...Actually, on second thought, the amount of time it takes to come back into the awareness of most people would be a contributor to how well it stops the nerf cycle from moving on. Oh well, min maxers ruin everything as usual! You're right about that one, good game.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
No it hasn't. All you've done is tried to make one piece of core functionality look like it's the whole thing. You try this all you wish, but it doesn't change the solid fact that Imbue is an On-Next-Hit, this IS core functionality, and it's being changed.
In fact, I'd argue that crits aren't even a notable part of the core functionality. They're the delivery method, sure, but what makes the power different from others? What makes it interesting? On-Next-Hit.
Let's put it this way: You could change it to be a flat, multiplicative damage buff that disables crits, paint "CRITICAL HIT" on the UI and no one would notice this difference. Changing it to an active offense? There's no way you're hiding that.
It still affects your next hit, just not as much. That is a matter of degree, not core functionality.
If On-Next-Hit were the core functionality, and, "crits aren't even a notable part of the core functionality," then a change that made it trigger as it did previously, but do nothing other than change the color of your travel power, would qualify as serving its core functionality. Obviously that is not the case.
I reiterate:
It provides a buff a broad category of powers...as it did before.
It uses the same functionality, critical hits, that it did before.
It continues to buff powers used subsequent to its activation.
In addition, it has its duration increased.
If, during the development process, it gains standard AO elements it will provide all of the benefits of old Imbue (though to a lesser degree) and benefits that Imbue never previously provided (as + all damage will affect powers that Imbue could not and of course there is break free strength)
It still affects your next hit, just not as much. That is a matter of degree, not core functionality.
Note I mentioned a "grey area" earlier. Yeah, this is stepping over that thin line by quite a bit. The devil is in the details: A power simply being able to effect your next attack does NOT qualify it for being an On-Next-Hit.
This is akin to changing Nasus' Q to a damage buff in League of Legends, this was actually suggested at one point and the community outright FLAMED the person for about three pages before the thread was locked.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
For what its worth:
I think Xao and Ashen both have valid interpretations of the "Cottage Rule".
Rules and laws by nature are subjective and open to interpretation.
I don't think either one of you can objectively prove that the others interpretation is objectively wrong.
just my 2 cents.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
No it hasn't. All you've done is tried to make one piece of core functionality look like it's the whole thing. You try this all you wish, but it doesn't change the solid fact that Imbue is an On-Next-Hit, this IS core functionality, and it's being changed.
In fact, I'd argue that crits aren't even a notable part of the core functionality. They're the delivery method, sure, but what makes the power different from others? What makes it interesting? On-Next-Hit.
Let's put it this way: You could change it to be a flat, multiplicative damage buff that disables crits, paint "CRITICAL HIT" on the UI and no one would notice this difference. Changing it to an active offense? There's no way you're hiding that.
1. In the past Ame has personalty stated that he hates imbue because it makes it hard to balance the game.
2. GC has personally stated that he views PVP as insignificant. 1+2=the devs didn't like how imbue worked and don't care about pvp.
And this is a major mistake of the devs, because pvp is a way to give an infinite end game for a game. Because the fights are never the same due to the players.
Endgame they can't do, even in pve, since more than 3 years.
And while this time, CO have 5 mc channels or less, every year, for many months before a F2P/major update which up the population to 8/16 mc channels, before down to 5 again some months later. Bis and repetita.
If they didn't want pvp, they shouldn't have done it for the 2009 release. The players could know than pvp is not wanted here and could not buy this game or taking Lts.
I wonder what that feeling would be like for a Dev to think that they got SO MUCH FEEDBACK over the weekend and to find that it has mainly been arguments saying the same thing, for quite a few number of pages. >.>
I'm sure this will be helpful in one way or another but boy has it been my popcorn all day!
I think this issue is difficult to address. ONH are rare and interesting but it also makes game mechanics bite in terms of balance. I agree that this was done due to lack of time and I personally think this AO is great because it can help several types of builds. Unless I'm misunderstanding it of course. I think it's most beneficial to healers who can get more bite in their healing and damage. At the end of the day, Imbue wasn't terribly useful to Celestial as a whole. Maybe there was some interesting way to use it that I never thought about but I always thought of it as useless to my Celestial hybrid healer. Now it has a much greater range of use and I can see it becoming much more useful then it was before.
I say stuff and I say things, sometimes together but only when I'm feeling adventurous.
It still affects your next hit, just not as much. That is a matter of degree, not core functionality.
Personally i never use Active Offenses before a fight, because i normally hold them back
for when i get hold. So i have for example an Elder Worm MV in a Unity Quest, i hit Imbue
to hit them with an totally overpowered 7k Defile or Rocket .. what means maybe they loose
half of their life, and after that i hope to kill them before they spam their annoying hold.
Often they still manage to get the hold out, and thats when i want to use my AO, since
i simply hate spamming the Z-key.
Yeah .. i can use it of course also before fight if i know that mob doesn't spam holds, but
then i mostly also don't care if i need a second longer to kill him .. as long as he also don't
uses knockbacks.
So personally .. for me it would be a better Idea if they make it an AO that makes me immun
to holds and knocks for 12 seconds .. lol
This is actually a really good point and it slipped right past me. Also, Enrage isn't the one that REALLY broke it, Aggressor is. You bring the Aggressor change up, and no one who doesn't have their head up their rear will disagree with you. Enrage at least has a few of the tricks you can use to break the rule going for it. Aggressor, and classic Might as a whole, really don't.
Large reason I don't like this as is with the AO tag is it is taking up time for other AOs (adding further to this, its 'timed' need for most of its bang, i.e. injury, makes it compete for other AO cooldowns even more). AOs have a niche for breaking holds, and we have good ones in my opinion that do a lot of cool stuff in addition. We don't really need another AO.
If this is going to be pure critness, remove the AO limitation.
If it simply must be an AO, it should have more of what every other AO has. Doesn't need to be as much, perhaps, but still.
Ultimately, the 30/30 bonus hinges on a not-entirely-ideal condition, so you have to consider there are times when the bonus is not going to equal that. '30/30' without that consideration is false.
If the gradient were narrowed some from the current 12 - 30, to like 20/30, then it progressively becomes a more reliable number and can be counted upon as a serious buff without additional bonuses.
And no, 3 seconds of this is not worth 2 ADV points, as it stands.
These threads with like two or three people arguing like petulant children over why their opinion of what a power should be is why our feedback rarely gets read... You realize that right?
If I was crush, and I came in on Monday to see this 20 page thread of Xao and whoever else just arguing like fools for 15 pages. I'd just give up reading it right then and there and never bother to go through and try to pick out the few posts of constructive criticism.
It's just like back when Captain Fabulous would always start a giant trolling argument every PTS thread.
Honestly, the mods should just delete all posts that aren't formatted in the outlined "bug report" format, or that contain no suggested tweaking of certain power changes with intelligently explained reasoning and numbers backing it.
So does this mean that all the powers that were changed to no longer crit ever. Like Sigils and gas arrows. Due to problems with how they worked with Imbue. Going to get their ability to crit, back now?
So does this mean that all the powers that were changed to no longer crit ever. Like Sigils and gas arrows. Due to problems with how they worked with Imbue. Going to get their ability to crit, back now?
I'm hoping for this. I want to see Gas Arrow become semi-helpful again to a Marksman or offensive archer.
blah blah blah PvP is never at fault for anything because no one listens to us, whine whine[/I]
I'm not normally that juvenile but that's how you responded to me, and it's equally lacking.
Try and absolve the PvP community all you like but this power was iffy ever since Celestial rolled out. But PvE builds found it useful and I think it lasted as long as it did because PvP had other things to cry out about.
But once they got on their whine train and yelled about it in thread after thread and in any Dev meet event, you can be your bottom dollar the Dev know the hue and cry came from PvP.
The PvE community was relatively willing to go through the fixes of On Next Hit powers in general and Imbue in particular. But the PvP community -had- to have a fix for something that will never get fixed.
PvP balance.
This isn't the kind of game with classes and hard restrictions on powers, those game can kind of balance [go check the WoW PvP forums to see what it's like in those games and you'll understand why perfect balance will never happen here.]
But I never said it wasn't nessisary to fix it, on the contrary I said..
Doesn't mean PvP is somehow not the reason for the replacement with Imbue with something else with it's name.
That said, I might actually use it but not in any of the builds I have that use it now, it's not the same at all.
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
So does this mean that all the powers that were changed to no longer crit ever. Like Sigils and gas arrows. Due to problems with how they worked with Imbue. Going to get their ability to crit, back now?
Funny story: Some DoTs can crit again, and have been for months now: ego sprites, toxic nanites, Hex of suffering, annnnd that's all I can remember off the top of my head atm.
Oh, the Collective will pets... Right, they can even be imbued to be perma crit and everything.
If this were a pvp thing, near-permanent ascension impunity from non-removable
flight would have been touched.
Oh they'll get to it eventually.
PvP gets things nerfed all the time, but usually only one thing at a time.
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
And this is a major mistake of the devs, because pvp is a way to give an infinite end game for a game. Because the fights are never the same due to the players.
I've made the same argument for RP and it's community. So I feel you. RP has the added benefit of being far easier to please, Dev time wise and nothing we want 'nerfs' PvE or PvP. But lets face it, we're embarrassing to the 'neighbors'
If they didn't want pvp, they shouldn't have done it for the 2009 release. The players could know than pvp is not wanted here and could not buy this game or taking Lts.
I think this is a bit unfair.
This game wasn't made primarily with PvP in mind and there's no helping that. There's too much freedom for balancing to ever get that mythical sweet spot where every choice or at least most of them have some viability and fun value for the player base.
In general I think the PvP community has good and bad points;
Good-
Dedication and persistence in getting good content for their use.
A core of smart, tactical and number crunching people
General sportsman like attitudes
Bad-
A willingness to find, break and exploit anything in the game and then make sure it's nerfed for all, not just PvP
Amazing ingratitude for all the content the Devs do for them
A patronizing and elitist attitude that makes people want to PvP less
Oddly human in the sum up I think
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
So does this mean that all the powers that were changed to no longer crit ever. Like Sigils and gas arrows. Due to problems with how they worked with Imbue. Going to get their ability to crit, back now?
I believe it was said they would again be able to crit after they got the option to make them crit per hit. Which apparently takes a while to code.
These threads with like two or three people arguing like petulant children over why their opinion of what a power should be is why our feedback rarely gets read... You realize that right?
If I was crush, and I came in on Monday to see this 20 page thread of Xao and whoever else just arguing like fools for 15 pages. I'd just give up reading it right then and there and never bother to go through and try to pick out the few posts of constructive criticism.
It's just like back when Captain Fabulous would always start a giant trolling argument every PTS thread.
Honestly, the mods should just delete all posts that aren't formatted in the outlined "bug report" format, or that contain no suggested tweaking of certain power changes with intelligently explained reasoning and numbers backing it.
Of course, because you, like Sanguine, disagree with me and are just fine with what's here. Can't beat your opponent? Villainize them. Actually, villainize them, even if you CAN beat them. Villaize them even if you've already beaten them. It's politician 101 here, always villainize the opposition!
Might I remind you, however, that one of the more recent threads on this subject contained such gems as "FOR THE LOVE OF GOD FIX THIS ****!" Now, if you want to start calling people petulant children, you best remind yourself that there's been quite a bit of whining by the PvP community that I could very well call the same thing. ...And in the future, probably will.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
So, can we go ahead and change Ascension to be an Active Defense (with the shared AD cooldown) now that Imbue is an Active Offense?
Assuming "completely remove its travel component from the game" isn't an option, of course.
Haha not enough people are complaining about ascension and the travel component. Too many PvPers are using it and part of the reason besides CC being broken that melee is not viable in pvp.
Of course, because you, like Sanguine, disagree with me and are just fine with what's here. Can't beat your opponent? Villainize them. Actually, villainize them, even if you CAN beat them. Villaize them even if you've already beaten them. It's politician 101 here, always villainize the opposition!
Might I remind you, however, that one of the more recent threads on this subject contained such gems as "FOR THE LOVE OF GOD FIX THIS ****!" Now, if you want to start calling people petulant children, you best remind yourself that there's been quite a bit of whining by the PvP community that I could very well call the same thing. ...And in the future, probably will.
I don't pvp. Couldn't even remotely care about pvp anymore in this game. It's a joke. I come from a background playing shooters professionally, and the "competitive" side of every MMORPG ever has always made me laugh.
And you should be villainized, since you literally just spew your own totally one sided opinions about everything and have never even bothered to look at the situation from any other side, just your own stubborn position.
Imbue is now a much more versatile power that can be utilized by any number of people because it's no longer locked to CON. It boosts crit and severity by a pretty hefty flat amount and once it's more final, with a damage bonus and breakfree, it will be quite literally the best "all around" crit active offense.
All you take from it is: "WAAAAAH IT'S NOT AN ON NEXT HIT EFFECT ANYMORE! WAAAAH!"
Of course, because you, like Sanguine, disagree with me and are just fine with what's here. Can't beat your opponent? Villainize them. Actually, villainize them, even if you CAN beat them. Villaize them even if you've already beaten them. It's politician 101 here, always villainize the opposition!
Might I remind you, however, that one of the more recent threads on this subject contained such gems as "FOR THE LOVE OF GOD FIX THIS ****!" Now, if you want to start calling people petulant children, you best remind yourself that there's been quite a bit of whining by the PvP community that I could very well call the same thing. ...And in the future, probably will.
Really? You don't see who the devs talk to then, Malware may have posted on the forums, but this was being discussed by the devs since On Alert, oh, and funnily enough, PvPers just wanted the fix, you know who suggested this change? A PvE player, many of which wanted it REMOVED.
And you should be villainized, since you literally just spew your own totally one sided opinions about everything and have never even bothered to look at the situation from any other side, just your own stubborn position.
Imbue is now a much more versatile power that can be utilized by any number of people because it's no longer locked to CON. It boosts crit and severity by a pretty hefty flat amount and once it's more final, with a damage bonus and breakfree, it will be quite literally the best "all around" crit active offense.
All you take from it is: "WAAAAAH IT'S NOT AN ON NEXT HIT EFFECT ANYMORE! WAAAAH!"
And this^ Sanguine puts it in better words than I can.
Personally I find the issue with Imbue is that its too strong now, once its finalized I expect it to be nerfed a bit further.
Thinking about celestial, perhaps making it boost healing or count twice for crit with heals?
It would be all for nothing if a celestial couldn't find a use for it.
this power was iffy ever since Celestial rolled out.
So were in agreement then.
Can we drop the pvp argument for now?
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Comments
Con/Str/Dex are all good tank options.
sorry to bring up the "other" game again..but the new imbue smells of the old defiance.
Actually i have to agree with this. I hate to bring up COX again *cringe* but it reminds me of the original blaster defiance.
Im not apposed to the changes to imbue per se, but i do feel like the changes make it less of a "celestial frame work" power and like you said more of a "offensive desperation" power.
One of imbues design problems in the past was that it lent it self to use out side or the celestial framework or healing play-style.
As Imbue continues to be tweaked on PTS i hope that a healing bonus is added to it or something is done to tie it in with its framework while keeping it useful in free-from builds.
Would it be possible to give Imbue some kind of special function when used from support role? I don't want the new imbue to feel like it was designed from the ground up to be an offensive power.
EDIT:
Ninjaed by gonzolo4584
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
How about reopening the damn Z-Store already.
^This!^ I want my Z-store on PTS, and all my costumes back.
Xao:
I agree with you about general balancing principles, but I'm willing to bet my Q that the Imbue change has next to nothing to do with design principles. It has everything to do with production schedules.
Let's face it, CO has been understaffed for quite some time. As it stands, it looks like Crush is the only systems designer left. Killing Imbue was probably a lot more schedule-friendly than finding the time to track down and fix all the internal bugs and issues with Imbue. Considering there were at least 2 major ones that interact with totally different systems (not being consumed by heals, being additive with base severity), Crush throwing out Imbue and reworking it entirely was probably the best solution available with the resources CO has on the dev side right now. And I assure you, the devs probably know that this isn't the best solution overall for Imbue, but it is the best solution with what they have available.
Welcome to the dark side of game development. It doesn't matter what you want to do, what matters is what you can actually get done in the time frame allotted.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
A lot.
Isn't the, "true purpose," (phrase taken from your link to the cottage rule) of Imbue to provide a short term damage buff ?
What I am seeing is that Imbue is still going to fulfill its true purpose to a lesser degree.
"An existing power will not have its core functionality and purpose changed, though its strength may be altered and effects secondary to the power's true purpose may be added or removed."
So Imbue will still fulfill its core purpose of increasing damage. Its core functionality is that it did so through increases to critical hit chance and severity. That is not changing. The new imbue is still using the core functionality of critical hits to fulfill its core purpose of increasing damage.
This cottage rule also states that a power's, "strength may be altered."
This is what is happening.
In summary:
Old Imbue: Provided a critical hit chance increase.
New Imbue: Provides a smaller critical hit chance increase but increases its duration.
Old Imbue: Provided a critical hit severity increase.
New Imbue: Provides a smaller critical hit severity increase but increases its duration.
Pretty solid adherence to the cottage rule actually.
As a secondary effect of these changes, since Crit damage is not part of the additive damage buff diminishing returns mode,l Imbue has the potential, depending on how the development cycle pans out, to be the best active offense in the game because most builds (that Ive seen-including ATs) are already pushing heavily into DR with their various additive damage buffs.
An active offense that replaces additive bonuses with multiplicative has truly amazing potential.
I suppose that depends on whether or not you consider a net, true damage increase of 9% to be, "a lot."
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Is that of an On-Next-Hit, NOT an Active Offense.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
It means alot when my crit chance nears 50% and my severity nears 120%. You forget, Severity is a multiplier increase, crit chance is a flat chance, in correlation, think of someone with 60/80 dodge avoidance stacking 24% dodge (EM) onto their build for almost always. Makes a difference, don't it?
My mistake. I was not multiplying correctly.
The core purpose is to increase the effect of powers that can crit.
The new imbue will still increase the effect of your next hit, though to a lesser degree than before.
The core functionality is still that it fulfills its core purpose using the critical hit system, just to a lesser degree.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
...Seeing as we're getting pretty close to the OTHER problem with new Imbue here, I suppose I should spill my thoughts on the OTHER reason this is a bad change. Since after all, we're headed in that direction, anyway, and I don't see reason keeping my mouth shut in hopes this goes live and I turn out to be right.
New imbue provides the GREATEST real world benefit to builds on the extremes of the crit scale. That is to say, builds with 0 or near 0 crit chance, to which the average DPS increase from a maxed imbue is closer to 25%, and builds that push extreme amounts of crit chance, which will now have a near 100% chance (or an ACTUAL 100% chance in some rare cases) to crit with every single attack, making it an even more borked version of old imbue since it lasts much, much longer, even if you take into account non-consuming powers.
STILL LIKING THE SOUND OF YOUR HORRIBLE CHANGE NOW?
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Now you're bending things out of shape, I see no reason to continue arguing with you.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
1) Change its cooldown to 90 seconds to standarize it.
2) Have it grant 42/50/60% all damage strength to standardize it.
3) Have it grant standard breakfree damage.
3) Remove energy costs to standardize it.
4) Possibly NERF the max amount of crit/severity so it doesn't make Ice Sheath and LocknLoad look like the dummies' picks, I recomend 20/20 @ 50% hp or even lower.
I'm aware of this, read my previous post, duh.
Problem is, I don't see why it had to be an Active Offense. Last I checked, the problem was it wasn't dropping when you healed, so it was constant Crit-Heal.
Sounds like the people taking the hardest hit on this are:
Con-based PVP snipers.
Healers.
I say focus on the healers. PvP in this game is so broken, and so many PvPers are ridiculously obsessive about ANY changes to their clown builds- you won't make them happy. "Oh noes, you tried to create balance in the game! Now I don't WIN!!! Boo!" *Ragequit, burn self with cigarettes wearing mom's nightgown*
Of course you don't. Your argument regarding the application of the cottage rule has been shown to lack merit.
1) It still fulfills its core purpose of increasing the effect of powers that can crit.
2) It fulfills its purpose using the core functionality of the critical hit system.
3) It continues to affect next hit powers.
The changes to this power are primarily matters of degree and duration.
Now, that said, I thought that Imbue, as it existed previously, was a decent power that would have been better served by tweaks and fixes rather than the changes we got. But what we got does adhere to the cottage rule.
Actually those most focused on and calling for balance have, historically, been the PvP community. The most common arguments that balance doesnt matter have been from PVEers pointing out that NPCs dont care about facing an unbalanced or OP build/power.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
They should've simply fixzed it, but the internal problems imbue caused as an ONH have been detrimental, can they fix Gas Arrow now that Imbue isn't ONH anymore?
I know you are. I've been aware of it since they posted the notes. The first thing I thought was "Oh, those AoPM builds already using imbue are going to love the hell out of this change."
The hilarious part, is it SUCKS for mid line builds, and really does end up being around a 9% damage increase with nothing to make up for that. Like I keep saying, average builds that don't intentionally break EVERY facet of the game get SCREWED OVER by this crap. Every time. Like clockwork.
I was HOPING it wouldn't come out in the wash before the power went live, because that would keep people griping about imbue a bit longer, so hopefully the power butchering doesn't move to another power quite so soon. Imbue is lost, I'm still mad, but imbue is lost. This stuff always makes it off the PTS in some form.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Actually, all those AoPM min/maxers are swapping to Ego Surge with Nimble Mind advantage, which scales off con, not rec like it technically should, its pretty much Imbue's little bro, this imbue change benefits the DPS folk most of all, or naturally high crit types (40%+). Especially low con.
No it hasn't. All you've done is tried to make one piece of core functionality look like it's the whole thing. You try this all you wish, but it doesn't change the solid fact that Imbue is an On-Next-Hit, this IS core functionality, and it's being changed.
In fact, I'd argue that crits aren't even a notable part of the core functionality. They're the delivery method, sure, but what makes the power different from others? What makes it interesting? On-Next-Hit.
Let's put it this way: You could change it to be a flat, multiplicative damage buff that disables crits, paint "CRITICAL HIT" on the UI and no one would notice this difference. Changing it to an active offense? There's no way you're hiding that.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Assuming "completely remove its travel component from the game" isn't an option, of course.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
_______________________________
The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
_______________________________
I'm not buying it. The reason people use Imbue is for guaranteed crits. On heals, and spikes, at the same time, if you're exploiting. It's not going to replace Ascension, but I do see it eventually becoming the thing to have as your backup AO.
What's going to happen here is the "league cycle:" People abandon the recently changed/nerfed thing whether it sucks or not, especially if it does suck under certain circumstances, but is still amazing under others.
If it really does suck, we don't hear about it until it gets buffed again, besides griping over how bad it is. If it doesn't suck people realize this about 2-6 months down the line and suddenly it's being cried about again. The time it takes for this to happen is generally relative to how bad the nerf was, and if it's still good in some ways and not others, what ways it's still good. Other factors can include cyclical nerfing around it, as well as new synergies being found.
...Actually, on second thought, the amount of time it takes to come back into the awareness of most people would be a contributor to how well it stops the nerf cycle from moving on. Oh well, min maxers ruin everything as usual! You're right about that one, good game.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
It still affects your next hit, just not as much. That is a matter of degree, not core functionality.
If On-Next-Hit were the core functionality, and, "crits aren't even a notable part of the core functionality," then a change that made it trigger as it did previously, but do nothing other than change the color of your travel power, would qualify as serving its core functionality. Obviously that is not the case.
I reiterate:
It provides a buff a broad category of powers...as it did before.
It uses the same functionality, critical hits, that it did before.
It continues to buff powers used subsequent to its activation.
In addition, it has its duration increased.
If, during the development process, it gains standard AO elements it will provide all of the benefits of old Imbue (though to a lesser degree) and benefits that Imbue never previously provided (as + all damage will affect powers that Imbue could not and of course there is break free strength)
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Note I mentioned a "grey area" earlier. Yeah, this is stepping over that thin line by quite a bit. The devil is in the details: A power simply being able to effect your next attack does NOT qualify it for being an On-Next-Hit.
This is akin to changing Nasus' Q to a damage buff in League of Legends, this was actually suggested at one point and the community outright FLAMED the person for about three pages before the thread was locked.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
I think Xao and Ashen both have valid interpretations of the "Cottage Rule".
Rules and laws by nature are subjective and open to interpretation.
I don't think either one of you can objectively prove that the others interpretation is objectively wrong.
just my 2 cents.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Where were the cottage rule cries for enrage?
And this is a major mistake of the devs, because pvp is a way to give an infinite end game for a game. Because the fights are never the same due to the players.
Endgame they can't do, even in pve, since more than 3 years.
And while this time, CO have 5 mc channels or less, every year, for many months before a F2P/major update which up the population to 8/16 mc channels, before down to 5 again some months later. Bis and repetita.
If they didn't want pvp, they shouldn't have done it for the 2009 release. The players could know than pvp is not wanted here and could not buy this game or taking Lts.
I'm sure this will be helpful in one way or another but boy has it been my popcorn all day!
I think this issue is difficult to address. ONH are rare and interesting but it also makes game mechanics bite in terms of balance. I agree that this was done due to lack of time and I personally think this AO is great because it can help several types of builds. Unless I'm misunderstanding it of course. I think it's most beneficial to healers who can get more bite in their healing and damage. At the end of the day, Imbue wasn't terribly useful to Celestial as a whole. Maybe there was some interesting way to use it that I never thought about but I always thought of it as useless to my Celestial hybrid healer. Now it has a much greater range of use and I can see it becoming much more useful then it was before.
I say stuff and I say things, sometimes together but only when I'm feeling adventurous.
I'm @blu8 in game!
Personally i never use Active Offenses before a fight, because i normally hold them back
for when i get hold. So i have for example an Elder Worm MV in a Unity Quest, i hit Imbue
to hit them with an totally overpowered 7k Defile or Rocket .. what means maybe they loose
half of their life, and after that i hope to kill them before they spam their annoying hold.
Often they still manage to get the hold out, and thats when i want to use my AO, since
i simply hate spamming the Z-key.
Yeah .. i can use it of course also before fight if i know that mob doesn't spam holds, but
then i mostly also don't care if i need a second longer to kill him .. as long as he also don't
uses knockbacks.
So personally .. for me it would be a better Idea if they make it an AO that makes me immun
to holds and knocks for 12 seconds .. lol
This is actually a really good point and it slipped right past me. Also, Enrage isn't the one that REALLY broke it, Aggressor is. You bring the Aggressor change up, and no one who doesn't have their head up their rear will disagree with you. Enrage at least has a few of the tricks you can use to break the rule going for it. Aggressor, and classic Might as a whole, really don't.
And I suppose this is agreeable. As that's more or less part of the "grey area."
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
If this is going to be pure critness, remove the AO limitation.
If it simply must be an AO, it should have more of what every other AO has. Doesn't need to be as much, perhaps, but still.
Ultimately, the 30/30 bonus hinges on a not-entirely-ideal condition, so you have to consider there are times when the bonus is not going to equal that. '30/30' without that consideration is false.
If the gradient were narrowed some from the current 12 - 30, to like 20/30, then it progressively becomes a more reliable number and can be counted upon as a serious buff without additional bonuses.
And no, 3 seconds of this is not worth 2 ADV points, as it stands.
If I was crush, and I came in on Monday to see this 20 page thread of Xao and whoever else just arguing like fools for 15 pages. I'd just give up reading it right then and there and never bother to go through and try to pick out the few posts of constructive criticism.
It's just like back when Captain Fabulous would always start a giant trolling argument every PTS thread.
Honestly, the mods should just delete all posts that aren't formatted in the outlined "bug report" format, or that contain no suggested tweaking of certain power changes with intelligently explained reasoning and numbers backing it.
Snark never dies.
I'm hoping for this. I want to see Gas Arrow become semi-helpful again to a Marksman or offensive archer.
I'm not normally that juvenile but that's how you responded to me, and it's equally lacking.
Try and absolve the PvP community all you like but this power was iffy ever since Celestial rolled out. But PvE builds found it useful and I think it lasted as long as it did because PvP had other things to cry out about.
But once they got on their whine train and yelled about it in thread after thread and in any Dev meet event, you can be your bottom dollar the Dev know the hue and cry came from PvP.
The PvE community was relatively willing to go through the fixes of On Next Hit powers in general and Imbue in particular. But the PvP community -had- to have a fix for something that will never get fixed.
PvP balance.
This isn't the kind of game with classes and hard restrictions on powers, those game can kind of balance [go check the WoW PvP forums to see what it's like in those games and you'll understand why perfect balance will never happen here.]
But I never said it wasn't nessisary to fix it, on the contrary I said..
Doesn't mean PvP is somehow not the reason for the replacement with Imbue with something else with it's name.
That said, I might actually use it but not in any of the builds I have that use it now, it's not the same at all.
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
Funny story: Some DoTs can crit again, and have been for months now: ego sprites, toxic nanites, Hex of suffering, annnnd that's all I can remember off the top of my head atm.
Oh, the Collective will pets... Right, they can even be imbued to be perma crit and everything.
Snark never dies.
Oh they'll get to it eventually.
PvP gets things nerfed all the time, but usually only one thing at a time.
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
I've made the same argument for RP and it's community. So I feel you. RP has the added benefit of being far easier to please, Dev time wise and nothing we want 'nerfs' PvE or PvP. But lets face it, we're embarrassing to the 'neighbors'
I think this is a bit unfair.
This game wasn't made primarily with PvP in mind and there's no helping that. There's too much freedom for balancing to ever get that mythical sweet spot where every choice or at least most of them have some viability and fun value for the player base.
In general I think the PvP community has good and bad points;
Good-
Dedication and persistence in getting good content for their use.
A core of smart, tactical and number crunching people
General sportsman like attitudes
Bad-
A willingness to find, break and exploit anything in the game and then make sure it's nerfed for all, not just PvP
Amazing ingratitude for all the content the Devs do for them
A patronizing and elitist attitude that makes people want to PvP less
Oddly human in the sum up I think
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
I believe it was said they would again be able to crit after they got the option to make them crit per hit. Which apparently takes a while to code.
+5 to Sanguine
Of course, because you, like Sanguine, disagree with me and are just fine with what's here. Can't beat your opponent? Villainize them. Actually, villainize them, even if you CAN beat them. Villaize them even if you've already beaten them. It's politician 101 here, always villainize the opposition!
Might I remind you, however, that one of the more recent threads on this subject contained such gems as "FOR THE LOVE OF GOD FIX THIS ****!" Now, if you want to start calling people petulant children, you best remind yourself that there's been quite a bit of whining by the PvP community that I could very well call the same thing. ...And in the future, probably will.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Haha not enough people are complaining about ascension and the travel component. Too many PvPers are using it and part of the reason besides CC being broken that melee is not viable in pvp.
I don't pvp. Couldn't even remotely care about pvp anymore in this game. It's a joke. I come from a background playing shooters professionally, and the "competitive" side of every MMORPG ever has always made me laugh.
And you should be villainized, since you literally just spew your own totally one sided opinions about everything and have never even bothered to look at the situation from any other side, just your own stubborn position.
Imbue is now a much more versatile power that can be utilized by any number of people because it's no longer locked to CON. It boosts crit and severity by a pretty hefty flat amount and once it's more final, with a damage bonus and breakfree, it will be quite literally the best "all around" crit active offense.
All you take from it is: "WAAAAAH IT'S NOT AN ON NEXT HIT EFFECT ANYMORE! WAAAAH!"
Snark never dies.
Really? You don't see who the devs talk to then, Malware may have posted on the forums, but this was being discussed by the devs since On Alert, oh, and funnily enough, PvPers just wanted the fix, you know who suggested this change? A PvE player, many of which wanted it REMOVED.
And this^ Sanguine puts it in better words than I can.
Personally I find the issue with Imbue is that its too strong now, once its finalized I expect it to be nerfed a bit further.
It would be all for nothing if a celestial couldn't find a use for it.
Can we drop the pvp argument for now?
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.