I agree with the PFF comments. I just started using it on a munitions toon of mine, and w/the correct gear and strategy it works wonders. Can you apply Defiance to your test please? I know it would be somewhat difficult and time consuming as it doesn't have any REAL info in the tooltip.
I agree with the PFF comments. I just started using it on a munitions toon of mine, and w/the correct gear and strategy it works wonders. Can you apply Defiance to your test please? I know it would be somewhat difficult and time consuming as it doesn't have any REAL info in the tooltip.
Defiance is tricky to number crunch because of the way it builds with time, but I'll try tomorrow.
Okay, ran tests with Defiance and 200 con. I determined that one stack of Defiance seems to add about 10% damage resistance, and unlike invulnerability it is in the same layer as PD/ED, rather than being a separate mitigation layer. As such, its best toughness ratio (computed as above) is 1.85 with 6 stacks and 25% base mitigation. This is almost strictly worse than invulnerability; the only real benefit is that you do gain energy with every stack added (this appears to be influenced by con and energy strength (from recovery)).
Overall, Invulnerability and Regeneration appear to be the passive defenses to beat; there is no fight duration where one of those two is not the favored defense, unless you are fighting something that almost exclusively uses slow attacks. LR, PFF, and Defiance seem reasonably balanced against one another, as all three defenses have glaring holes.
Okay, ran tests with Defiance and 200 con. I determined that one stack of Defiance seems to add about 10% damage resistance, and unlike invulnerability it is in the same layer as PD/ED, rather than being a separate mitigation layer. As such, its best toughness ratio (computed as above) is 1.85 with 6 stacks and 25% base mitigation.
I got about the same numbers on my first two posts with numbers in this thread. And Ari has around 250 CON, but he gets about 11-12% damage resistance per stack. Did you happen to write down how much energy he got back per hit? With 247 CON, Ari gets back 52 energy from Defiance. I'm wondering how well that scales with CON as well.
Well guys, I'm confused a bit. In some other threads it's stated that Defiant is best used against Cosmics/Lengendaries and that Invuln is best used against regular mobs. However, the information posted just recently in this thread say that they are equal in terms of effectiveness.
Rox is built to be a straightup tank. I want him to be an efficient damage soaker for my team. I've found that Invuln has been somewhat subpar in the past against cosmics and would like to know how Defiant becomes better at tanking them. What I don't understand is that if these resistant %'s are equal how does having to wait for 6 (or is it 8) stacks of defiant beat the constant resistance of Invuln??
Well guys, I'm confused a bit. In some other threads it's stated that Defiant is best used against Cosmics/Lengendaries and that Invuln is best used against regular mobs. However, the information posted just recently in this thread say that they are equal in terms of effectiveness.
Well, behavior has changed on PTS, so don't count on the information in this thread remaining accurate for much longer.]
Well, behavior has changed on PTS, so don't count on the information in this thread remaining accurate for much longer.]
I thought I said the information posted just recently...did I not? As in the hard numbers from test in the last couple of posts put 6 stacks of Defiant on par with Invuln. I want to know what is meant by Defiant being able to handle Cosmics better. Or has this change made that point moot?
I think i can provide the answer you are looking for. The percentage damage resistance gain makes defiance at 6 stacks better than invuln against cosmics/legendaries because they hit so hard. Due to the nature of %'s, the damage received (as in actual damage taken. Not to be confused with damage resistance) is on a scaling value. So the harder the hit, the more damage resisted. And the difference between say 35%(invuln) and 50-60%(defiance) grows greatly with the more damage that you are hit with. We all know that shadow destroyer has crazy 8-15k shots. The difference between damage resistence between invuln and six stacks of defiance (i'm talking on the pts) is about 20-30%. Invuln hides this difference against smaller hits by the absortion factor. But with large hits (anything more than around 1k) the absorption is not strong enough to make up for the difference in damage resistance that defiance gives.
So, that is why invuln is better against "soft" hits. Truthfully, against a 10k shot, anything more 3 stacks (assuming you have more than 200 CON) of Defiance is better than invuln. This may not be exactly factual this second on the live server as invuln is improperly scaling, but more than 4 stacks on live is better still against hard hits. On pts/past Vib bay, 3 stack 4 stacks or more will be better.
So, if you have 2 active defenses and defiance then you will probably feel alot better than if you have invuln (again assuming you have enough CON to make it worthwhile). Since you said you are a "true tank", you should have more CON than STR and that's not an issue
I apologize if this post is unclear or unorganized, i'm writing on my cell. And this is unfortunately is how i stay awake in cold lecture halls
I thought I said the information posted just recently...did I not?
The information posted recently is not from PTS. On Live, Invulnerability outperforms Defiance even against Cosmics. On Test, Defiance pretty consistently performs better against large hits.
Okay neat! So it would actually be beneficial for me to take Invuln and Defiance so that I can properly tank in end game missions? And yes I'm STR/CON with PRE secondary.
Next question would be about building your defiant stacks. When a room has cleared and all that is left is said cosmic how do we build up our stacks when all he's hitting for is 8-15K?? The only thing I can think of is to spam Defensive Combo which makes me wonder if taking the advantage is worth it. How often will its adv add a defiant stack since it says "a chance to?"
The information posted recently is not from PTS. On Live, Invulnerability outperforms Defiance even against Cosmics. On Test, Defiance pretty consistently performs better against large hits.
Could've sworn I saw one of you say you were posting numbers from PTS. I might've been thinking of a different thread I had just read. Sorry for the confusion.
Easiest way is defensive combo w/advantage. I'd assume a "real" tank would have that anyway. I'm not too sure, as I'm a STR/CON dps build. But i know that power builds a lot of aggro. The 2nd easiest and safest way is to crank an active defense from the start. I'd say masterful dodge 1st though that you can still build aggro (unbreakable will go away after you attack).
Yeah, I do have Defensive Combo, just not the advantage...don't need it currently. Hmm...now I need to figure out how to squeeze in Masterful Dodge. Here's what I'm planning (minus MD).
Talents: Level 1:Superhuman Level 6:Mighty Level 9:Enduring Level 12:Physical Conditioning Level 15:Impressive Physique Level 18:Shrug It Off Level 21:Paramilitary Training
Of these I have a few that serve the same purpose. Beatdown and Shuriken Throw are my short and long ranged agro grabbers. Mighty Leap could possibly go due to Shuriken but I like being able to jump into a crowd when needed.
Thunderclap, Telekinetic Eruption, and Shockwave also have similar purposes. Shockwave fulfils this best but has a timer. I usually use TK Eruption & Thunderclap to fill the gap. Now it probably wouldn't hurt to lose one of these. What I was thinking is I could either lose Thunderclap (losing the CS adv) but keeping Telekinetic Maelstrom. This allows me to stay with theme as well as keeping a stun (which stuns bosses btw...claping doesn't). OR I could lose Telekinetic Maelstrom which has a large END requirement (allowing me to focus more on PRE or possibly INT making Shockwave come up more often).
I'm leaning more towards Thunderclap. I like it's low END cost and the stun it puts on henchmen but I find myself using Shockwave the most with ST attacks or my other AoEs filling the gap more than it.
Okay neat! So it would actually be beneficial for me to take Invuln and Defiance so that I can properly tank in end game missions? And yes I'm STR/CON with PRE secondary.
Next question would be about building your defiant stacks. When a room has cleared and all that is left is said cosmic how do we build up our stacks when all he's hitting for is 8-15K?? The only thing I can think of is to spam Defensive Combo which makes me wonder if taking the advantage is worth it. How often will its adv add a defiant stack since it says "a chance to?"
Well, you also have block and active defenses to help last out against the Cosmic/Legendary until your stacks build up. Hopefully there's a minion lingering or the cosmic is laying down attacks small enough for your Shield to let you survive.
Plus, by the time you FIRST reach the cosmic your stacks should already be high from clearing the room... though once you die you're SOL.
And lastly, ranked up you start at 2 stacks of Defiance. While not incredibly high, 2 stacks does soak up some damage and goes to 3 stacks very quick.
I'm liking Defiance at around lvl 35. I guess it's not as good as soaking up damage as INV but I don't want to waste a super stat on STR (even on my Force toon). The extra energy it gives me is substantial and keeps my tank topped off during a fight, around 50 energy every 3 seconds (assuming I'm getting attacked).
One might say Force Sheath + INV is better than Defiance. They may be right but I hate *having* to remember to click it every 8 seconds... and Force Sheath + Defiance means no energy problems what-so-ever for stuff like Cascade or Power Armor.
I know I've been quoted as saying that I'd be working on a new Passives update with all passives listed, not just defenses, and with fixes in to account for Free to play, but I am unavoidably unable due to serious emergency health issues.
When these clear up, I'll be able to get back to this. Hopefully, it will be soon.
I don't want to see you immortalized in CO the way Coyote was immortalized in CoH.......the price is too high
Well, I have good news then. The state of my health is "Out of the woods" now, and I'm on the road to recovery. How complete the recovery is still up in the air, but I'm making progress.
Well, I have good news then. The state of my health is "Out of the woods" now, and I'm on the road to recovery. How complete the recovery is still up in the air, but I'm making progress.
Goodbye my sweet sticky thread, soon to be archived to "unknown poster".
I no longer have the will to even pretend to maintain this.
Had the first post, may as well drop in the last.
ooh! This is my rare opportunity to say what happened last year now. It will all be ascribed to "Unknown poster" shortly, so....
In early February 2011, I had a heart attack. It wasn't instantly debilitating, as I've had life-long heart trouble stemming from a congenital birth defect, transposition of the great vessels.
I'd been basically healthy and fine (or so I thought) for years, but creeping symptoms that I had ascribed to simple aging were really tiny warnings that I wasn't doing so good, and led up to the attack that nearly killed me twice. I was in arrhythmia for two months after the attack.
It also left me totally screwed up for six months with another six months of recovery time required, most of that time I was unable to work, or couldn't find a job. Had no insurance either, one of the "blessings" of working in a non-union, no representation field such as the service industry.
Finally got back to work a few months ago, doing work that I can only describe as "exhausting", but the exercise has been good for me, and I'm surprised I've made as much of a recovery as I have now, so at least I'm almost back on track again.
Are the infos about the difference between Invulnerability and Defiance up to date?
Atm I can't see any point in taking invulnerability ingame.
(I would like to pick Invu, but I don't want to cripple myself)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Defiance seems superior to me.
Are the infos about the difference between Invulnerability and Defiance up to date?
Atm I can't see any point in taking invulnerability ingame.
(I would like to pick Invu, but I don't want to cripple myself)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Defiance seems superior to me.
The info the OP has is not up-to-date
I will only state what you are asking for:
Invul scales off your super stats. The flat damage reduction is more powerful than you think it is and the bonus to resistance to all damage makes it an easy to use, pick-up-and-go passive.
Defiance has an internal energy gain, a more indirect relationship with enrage(much lamer now..), the passive also doesn't lower the amount of time it takes to stack it when you rank it up. Ranking it up, now, means that you get 1 more stack that keeps refreshing while your idle(but if you reach +1 over the refresh limit you lose all your stacks when you return to idle but they build back up over time...ignoring this bit will make your head hurt less..)
Currently there isn't any content that the player cannot complete with defiance/invul.
What I mean by this is that you can melee tank gravitar with both, defiance and invul but defiance handles the high damage better than invul does(solo at least...if you include dodge&avoidance then the scale starts getting tipped)
Invul is also the better choice for upkeep as well as mitigation.
Invul doesn't require any build-up (unlike defiance) and invul also handles almost all attacks better than defiance due to the flat damage reduction. For me, it would take an attack greater than 2.5k to make defiance 'better' and even then, if I dodged it then invul will take back the crown. Also dodge+blocking attacks up to 14kish spits even more in defiance's face but attacks over 14k means that defiance can stand alone as the winner of the mazo contest.
So...Invul is better than defiance!? No, Invul and defiance are just two passives who excel at the same thought but when applied, the more useful passive is the one that the player chooses.
Defiance has energy and an appetite for heavy damage, Invul has any super stat combination and bullet/poison/bleeding-resistant sparkles.
In a nutshell, try out both(if you can) or choose one and work around it to suit your style of play.
Oh and PvP is much different than PvE since players can think and may have counters to facing tank-y builds...but sometimes PvP is just the same as PvE...
I warn you, if your chasing the strongest and toughest mobs then try to avoid Destroid terminators...you cannot survive an un-dodged attack from them using anything else but PFF(or using the sidekick exploit)
I am still wondering the difference between Defiance and Invulnerability.
I love to play as tank cause most of the time I solo exp until level 40 then only start to do alert.
I have a Behemoth. Currently, he is using level 3 Defiance, constitution 200+ and 12k+ hp. As stated in the description of Defiance, the defense it gives you base on your Constitution. Constitution also gives you more self-heal with Enrage advantage(forget the advantage name). He is having 277 defense.
My another character is using Invulnerability with constitution 200+ and 10k+hp. Even though he is having 310 defense, but I find that most of the time is that my behemoth is getting lesser damage from Gravitar compare to my freeform. But the advantage of my freeform is that he is having circuit reconstruct to self heal and also devour essence.
I am working on another freeform which is using regeneratete as passive. He has devour essence and nanobot swarm to heal himself. Currently is having 310+ defense. I have not tested him out with Gravitar. But with all the self heal power, I find that I don't have to block any huge attacks from Jack Fool whereas the 2 characters above need to block.
Others can probably explain this much better. But here is the big difference.
Defiance, when properly stated, can you get a much larger over all damage resistance. Dont look at the resistance from gear and spec trees. That wont show what your defense passive is doing on top of that. at approx 300 Con you should be getting 18%ish defense, per stack of defiance.
Invulnerable on the other hand offers less over all resistance. about 75 to 80% depending on your super stats. Its main advantage is after calculating resistance it offers a flat damage mitigation. This mitigation alone can take minor hits and remove them to absolute minimum damage.
So Invulnerable allows you to take barrages of small hits and mitigate them to next to nothing where Defiance will only reduce damage by a percentage. However, as Defiance has a higher base resistance it starts to be more favorable as the hits get larger. Where raw resistance will beat out flat mitigation.
Others can probably explain this much better. But here is the big difference.
Defiance, when properly stated, can you get a much larger over all damage resistance. Dont look at the resistance from gear and spec trees. That wont show what your defense passive is doing on top of that. at approx 300 Con you should be getting 18%ish defense, per stack of defiance.
Invulnerable on the other hand offers less over all resistance. about 75 to 80% depending on your super stats. Its main advantage is after calculating resistance it offers a flat damage mitigation. This mitigation alone can take minor hits and remove them to absolute minimum damage.
So Invulnerable allows you to take barrages of small hits and mitigate them to next to nothing where Defiance will only reduce damage by a percentage. However, as Defiance has a higher base resistance it starts to be more favorable as the hits get larger. Where raw resistance will beat out flat mitigation.
True but in the Mega D invasions..ppl will be begging for a defensive passive buff of some sort or another. I saw my friends FF Defiant/bestial/might build die against Mega D's and some Invuln ppl survive.
That said I have seen some people with Invuln and dodge/avoid then sliced and diced, which is worrying.
I am concerned that my 14.5k hp (370 CON) Behemoth may not survive this invasion...I had high hopes for my Master AT, but after seeing that damage from these guys sort of bypasses dodge/avoid mechanic like a DW to defense, I am very worried.
I am sure FF builds will do well against these bullies. I have NO doubt about that, the majority of FF players IMO are very talented in building and could get around this issue that all non 120ft sniping power AT's will have.
I cant express how sorry I feel for Melee DPS AT's...Melee in general actually...
This event MIGHT give Impulse AT's who run PFF some kind of (dare I say) "Edge" over other defensive passives. Even though at 100% shields it will still let ~5% damage through to you and fall damage bypasses PFF, and ofc VIPER soliders do as well :mad:!!!
PFF through block can do quite well for about 3-4 seconds against Mega D Eye Beam, well a 6.5k one anyway.
But I am probably wrong lol, I can see AoPM builds running with dodge tanks and uber healers doing well in this event. Shielding and Active Defensives like Breakable, Masterful Dodge and Field Surge will to next to nothing against these monsters.
Active Defenses do need a buff to get upto scratch with current standards of damage IMO
Others can probably explain this much better. But here is the big difference.
Defiance, when properly stated, can you get a much larger over all damage resistance. Dont look at the resistance from gear and spec trees. That wont show what your defense passive is doing on top of that. at approx 300 Con you should be getting 18%ish defense, per stack of defiance.
Invulnerable on the other hand offers less over all resistance. about 75 to 80% depending on your super stats. Its main advantage is after calculating resistance it offers a flat damage mitigation. This mitigation alone can take minor hits and remove them to absolute minimum damage.
So Invulnerable allows you to take barrages of small hits and mitigate them to next to nothing where Defiance will only reduce damage by a percentage. However, as Defiance has a higher base resistance it starts to be more favorable as the hits get larger. Where raw resistance will beat out flat mitigation.
Where Defiance excels is taking the big schtick attacks from boss++. The big hits are space far apart. So it's very bursty DPS.. Versus crowds minions and lieutenants is where Defiance will fall behind. The constant DPS will nickel and dime you to defeat. That's where Invulnerability excels.
Where Defiance excels is taking the big schtick attacks from boss++. The big hits are space far apart. So it's very bursty DPS.. Versus crowds minions and lieutenants is where Defiance will fall behind. The constant DPS will nickel and dime you to defeat. That's where Invulnerability excels.
Nice summary but this then begs the question of the final defensive passive Personal Force Field. In the Impulse AT, it takes alot of effort, CD reduction gear,spamming Proc Field, INT as well as blocking to keep PFF activated. PFF doesnt excell in boss fights and within a couple of hits it is down and out. In mobs it does ok until about the 5 second mark then "trash mobs" do enough damage to deactivate it
Urgh..don't even get me started on VIPER :mad: bunch of PFF bypassing savages >:(
I dont think I've used a passive which requires so much maintainance to keep it going.
I know some FFs who make it look easy but for Impulse and compared to defensive counterparts well...it doesnt do as well as I thought it would.
((When I first came to this game I was drawn to PFF's description as I linked it to the Personal Force Field in CoH))
Honestly, I've abandoned all other defensive passives in favour of REGENERATION. block for a few seconds and you're back in the game. Any other defense just doesn't stack up.
Invulnerability: Yes, you're sturdy, and you'll handle most stuff in the game pretty well - until something hits you really hard. Then your health drops and you have no real way to recover it. You can take a self heal like Resurgence, then get killed while you wait for it to recharge. You're better off with Regen and Inertial Dampening.
Defiance: Like Invulnerability, except small attacks will chew you up with little way to recover. Of course, most content in the game is little attacks, so you'll feel pretty flimsy most of the time.
Lightning Reflexes: Ugh. WORST passive defense ever. Dodging isn't really dodging. You're really rolling with punches. You have to build for both dodge AND avoidance, so you have more to worry about than the other passives. I swear, I felt like I had no passive at all with this power. Yes, I can get Burning Chi with Resurgent Reiki, but if have to have that, it's not LR that's keeping me alive, it's BCR+RR, which is just a high maintenance Regeneration.
Personal Force Field: I can't say anything about this, as I haven't really tried it.
Basically, my Regeneration characters (ie. anything that doesn't use an offensive or support passive) are FAR more survivable than any other character I've played. For me, the proof is in the pudding.
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
You dont need a defensive passive for the majority of the content. In the small minority of content where a defensive passive is almost a must regeneration performs less well than Lightning Reflexes, Invulnerability, and Defiance as part of a build.
You dont need a defensive passive for the majority of the content. In the small minority of content where a defensive passive is almost a must regeneration performs less well than Lightning Reflexes, Invulnerability, and Defiance as part of a build.
Not in my experience. I've played characters to high level with Regen, Invulnerability, Defiance and Lightning Reflexes (also some of the other passives), and none perform as well overall as Regeneration. With regeneration, I can take on huge groups of foes, and with patience and appropriate blocking, I can defeat them all. I can't do that with any of the other passives.
For example, taking on MegaD at L30, my Regeneration tank was able to go toe to toe, blocking only the big chargeup attacks. MegaD's punches were not enough to take me out.
My Invulnerability Tank would lose about half his health from one of those punches, but would have no way to get it back. I could use a self heal, but the next punch would put me in the same shape with no heal to use. Defiance was about the same, really.
Lightning Reflexes did basically nothing. One punch would do so much damage that if I wasn't defeated outright, I was left with a sliver.
Again, your milage may vary, but that has been my experience.
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
Quite trivial, by now. Frosticus though is a whole another matter; even Silverspar has difficulty with only regen.
More on topic though ... how has Frosty changed how these passives are perceived?
PFF isn't good for taking his ice daggers atm, Regen bit better off but requires good block timing (and release to let regen tick between blocks), Invuln a bit better than that (in terms of reliability and ease), Defiance after that (assuming 6 stacks). Best is 100% dodge builds using LR as the base. Laser Knight, Ebon Sigils, Ebon Void w/ VD, flat dodge boosts, dual ADs (one being MD), dual bubbles, at least one reg heal are all the best things to pick from thus far to help one legit tank Frosty (and by 'legit' I mean not exploiting his range). -%dmg debuffs also help a pretty good deal (though ebon sigils w/ Pres gearing seem to have the most impact out of any one of them; Crip Challenge ofc also being good). The support you layer on top of the passive can matter almost as much as the passive itself.
Melee is both favored by Laser Knight or Elusive Monk, and also disfavored by suffering ice prisons (while ranged tanks can tank far away enough to never or rarely get frozen)- if melee, you need to have one AD ready for ice prisons or ur likely a goner regardless of the build.
So from Personal Experience with the Passives (dealing with Mobs and Gravitar:)
Invulnability Propably my most Favorite DEF Passive. I'm really satisfied
Regenaration Second favorite, it feels so good not having to deal with Self Heals, I need to use this more often as well!:biggrin:
Defiance... I actually haven't used this passive since my Behemoth... Gimmie a break once I go Lifetimer I will use it again... I just like Invulnability more >w>
Lightning Reflexes Ok... now I have Mixed feelings, this passive is totally Luck-Chance based and FORCE you to Build Dodge chance via Skills/Gear! it's Dreamy once it works but... those 3000+ damage spikes in gravitar makes me feel that I DON'T have passive.
Perhaps it's because I'm using it on a FreeForm take of the Specialist! once I make the Martial art character ingame who use Dodge skills I may chance my mind
Personal Force Field: and speaking of NOT having a passive
I feel like I constanltly need to Babysit my Bubble so It won't drop to Zero while dealing with the Mob Groups/Boss which I got agro
this skill should be renamed from "Defensive Passive" into "DEFEND-YOUR-PASSIVE" as TheRavenForce stated
DONE! Milo enjoys beating the shiz out the Latex Fetishist lady, YAYZ
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies! Playing since 1 February 2011 128 + Characters (21 ATs, 107 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
Building dodge these days is basically 100% or bust, so your experience with LR is no surprise (specially on a ranged character, which doesn't have any way to get to 100% - correct me if wrong). For the vast majority of in-game content, Invuln or Regen trivializes it.
Comments
Overall, Invulnerability and Regeneration appear to be the passive defenses to beat; there is no fight duration where one of those two is not the favored defense, unless you are fighting something that almost exclusively uses slow attacks. LR, PFF, and Defiance seem reasonably balanced against one another, as all three defenses have glaring holes.
Good work, this.
Yup. I am loving Invuln right now btw. Finally giving STR SS'd toons something to be happy about. I hope that doesn't change one bit.
It's "Defense passives".
I got about the same numbers on my first two posts with numbers in this thread. And Ari has around 250 CON, but he gets about 11-12% damage resistance per stack. Did you happen to write down how much energy he got back per hit? With 247 CON, Ari gets back 52 energy from Defiance. I'm wondering how well that scales with CON as well.
Rox is built to be a straightup tank. I want him to be an efficient damage soaker for my team. I've found that Invuln has been somewhat subpar in the past against cosmics and would like to know how Defiant becomes better at tanking them. What I don't understand is that if these resistant %'s are equal how does having to wait for 6 (or is it 8) stacks of defiant beat the constant resistance of Invuln??
Thanks.
I thought I said the information posted just recently...did I not? As in the hard numbers from test in the last couple of posts put 6 stacks of Defiant on par with Invuln. I want to know what is meant by Defiant being able to handle Cosmics better. Or has this change made that point moot?
So, that is why invuln is better against "soft" hits. Truthfully, against a 10k shot, anything more 3 stacks (assuming you have more than 200 CON) of Defiance is better than invuln. This may not be exactly factual this second on the live server as invuln is improperly scaling, but more than 4 stacks on live is better still against hard hits. On pts/past Vib bay, 3 stack 4 stacks or more will be better.
So, if you have 2 active defenses and defiance then you will probably feel alot better than if you have invuln (again assuming you have enough CON to make it worthwhile). Since you said you are a "true tank", you should have more CON than STR and that's not an issue
I apologize if this post is unclear or unorganized, i'm writing on my cell. And this is unfortunately is how i stay awake in cold lecture halls
Next question would be about building your defiant stacks. When a room has cleared and all that is left is said cosmic how do we build up our stacks when all he's hitting for is 8-15K?? The only thing I can think of is to spam Defensive Combo which makes me wonder if taking the advantage is worth it. How often will its adv add a defiant stack since it says "a chance to?"
Could've sworn I saw one of you say you were posting numbers from PTS. I might've been thinking of a different thread I had just read. Sorry for the confusion.
Roxstar: Level 40 Champion
Build by championBuilder 0.4.1
Download this Build here.
Roxstar: Level 40 Champion
Superstats:
Level 5: Super Strength
Level 13: Super Constitution
Powers:
Level 1: Clobber
Level 1: Beatdown -- Crippling Challenge
Level 5: Defensive Combo -- Surge Of Strength
Level 5: Tunneling -- Rank 3, Rank 2
Level 8: Invulnerability -- Rank 3, Rank 2
Level 11: Mighty Leap
Level 14: Telekinetic Shield -- Telekinetic Reinforcement, Rank 3, Rank 2
Level 17: Bountiful Chi Resurgence -- Rank 3, Rank 2
Level 20: Resurgence -- Rank 3, Rank 2
Level 23: Thunderclap -- Challenging Strikes
Level 26: Telekinetic Eruption -- Challenging Strikes
Level 29: Shuriken Throw -- Crippling Challenge, Chained Kunai
Level 32: Shockwave -- Challenging Strikes
Level 35: Telekinetic Maelstorm
Level 35: Earth Flight
Level 38: Defiance -- Rank 3, Rank 2
Talents:
Level 1: Superhuman
Level 6: Mighty
Level 9: Enduring
Level 12: Physical Conditioning
Level 15: Impressive Physique
Level 18: Shrug It Off
Level 21: Paramilitary Training
Of these I have a few that serve the same purpose. Beatdown and Shuriken Throw are my short and long ranged agro grabbers. Mighty Leap could possibly go due to Shuriken but I like being able to jump into a crowd when needed.
Thunderclap, Telekinetic Eruption, and Shockwave also have similar purposes. Shockwave fulfils this best but has a timer. I usually use TK Eruption & Thunderclap to fill the gap. Now it probably wouldn't hurt to lose one of these. What I was thinking is I could either lose Thunderclap (losing the CS adv) but keeping Telekinetic Maelstrom. This allows me to stay with theme as well as keeping a stun (which stuns bosses btw...claping doesn't). OR I could lose Telekinetic Maelstrom which has a large END requirement (allowing me to focus more on PRE or possibly INT making Shockwave come up more often).
I'm leaning more towards Thunderclap. I like it's low END cost and the stun it puts on henchmen but I find myself using Shockwave the most with ST attacks or my other AoEs filling the gap more than it.
Thoughts?
Well, you also have block and active defenses to help last out against the Cosmic/Legendary until your stacks build up. Hopefully there's a minion lingering or the cosmic is laying down attacks small enough for your Shield to let you survive.
Plus, by the time you FIRST reach the cosmic your stacks should already be high from clearing the room... though once you die you're SOL.
And lastly, ranked up you start at 2 stacks of Defiance. While not incredibly high, 2 stacks does soak up some damage and goes to 3 stacks very quick.
I'm liking Defiance at around lvl 35. I guess it's not as good as soaking up damage as INV but I don't want to waste a super stat on STR (even on my Force toon). The extra energy it gives me is substantial and keeps my tank topped off during a fight, around 50 energy every 3 seconds (assuming I'm getting attacked).
One might say Force Sheath + INV is better than Defiance. They may be right but I hate *having* to remember to click it every 8 seconds... and Force Sheath + Defiance means no energy problems what-so-ever for stuff like Cascade or Power Armor.
When these clear up, I'll be able to get back to this. Hopefully, it will be soon.
Due to personal issues, all work on this is suspended indefinitely, and if I don't make it, permanently.
I pray for the best Rune!
I don't want to see you immortalized in CO the way Coyote was immortalized in CoH.......the price is too high
Well, I have good news then. The state of my health is "Out of the woods" now, and I'm on the road to recovery. How complete the recovery is still up in the air, but I'm making progress.
Thank you for the well wishes.
Awesome! Good to hear it.
I no longer have the will to even pretend to maintain this.
Had the first post, may as well drop in the last.
ooh! This is my rare opportunity to say what happened last year now. It will all be ascribed to "Unknown poster" shortly, so....
In early February 2011, I had a heart attack. It wasn't instantly debilitating, as I've had life-long heart trouble stemming from a congenital birth defect, transposition of the great vessels.
I'd been basically healthy and fine (or so I thought) for years, but creeping symptoms that I had ascribed to simple aging were really tiny warnings that I wasn't doing so good, and led up to the attack that nearly killed me twice. I was in arrhythmia for two months after the attack.
It also left me totally screwed up for six months with another six months of recovery time required, most of that time I was unable to work, or couldn't find a job. Had no insurance either, one of the "blessings" of working in a non-union, no representation field such as the service industry.
Finally got back to work a few months ago, doing work that I can only describe as "exhausting", but the exercise has been good for me, and I'm surprised I've made as much of a recovery as I have now, so at least I'm almost back on track again.
Atm I can't see any point in taking invulnerability ingame.
(I would like to pick Invu, but I don't want to cripple myself)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Defiance seems superior to me.
The info the OP has is not up-to-date
I will only state what you are asking for:
Invul scales off your super stats. The flat damage reduction is more powerful than you think it is and the bonus to resistance to all damage makes it an easy to use, pick-up-and-go passive.
Defiance has an internal energy gain, a more indirect relationship with enrage(much lamer now..), the passive also doesn't lower the amount of time it takes to stack it when you rank it up. Ranking it up, now, means that you get 1 more stack that keeps refreshing while your idle(but if you reach +1 over the refresh limit you lose all your stacks when you return to idle but they build back up over time...ignoring this bit will make your head hurt less..)
Currently there isn't any content that the player cannot complete with defiance/invul.
What I mean by this is that you can melee tank gravitar with both, defiance and invul but defiance handles the high damage better than invul does(solo at least...if you include dodge&avoidance then the scale starts getting tipped)
Invul is also the better choice for upkeep as well as mitigation.
Invul doesn't require any build-up (unlike defiance) and invul also handles almost all attacks better than defiance due to the flat damage reduction. For me, it would take an attack greater than 2.5k to make defiance 'better' and even then, if I dodged it then invul will take back the crown. Also dodge+blocking attacks up to 14kish spits even more in defiance's face but attacks over 14k means that defiance can stand alone as the winner of the mazo contest.
So...Invul is better than defiance!? No, Invul and defiance are just two passives who excel at the same thought but when applied, the more useful passive is the one that the player chooses.
Defiance has energy and an appetite for heavy damage, Invul has any super stat combination and bullet/poison/bleeding-resistant sparkles.
In a nutshell, try out both(if you can) or choose one and work around it to suit your style of play.
Oh and PvP is much different than PvE since players can think and may have counters to facing tank-y builds...but sometimes PvP is just the same as PvE...
I warn you, if your chasing the strongest and toughest mobs then try to avoid Destroid terminators...you cannot survive an un-dodged attack from them using anything else but PFF(or using the sidekick exploit)
I love to play as tank cause most of the time I solo exp until level 40 then only start to do alert.
I have a Behemoth. Currently, he is using level 3 Defiance, constitution 200+ and 12k+ hp. As stated in the description of Defiance, the defense it gives you base on your Constitution. Constitution also gives you more self-heal with Enrage advantage(forget the advantage name). He is having 277 defense.
My another character is using Invulnerability with constitution 200+ and 10k+hp. Even though he is having 310 defense, but I find that most of the time is that my behemoth is getting lesser damage from Gravitar compare to my freeform. But the advantage of my freeform is that he is having circuit reconstruct to self heal and also devour essence.
I am working on another freeform which is using regeneratete as passive. He has devour essence and nanobot swarm to heal himself. Currently is having 310+ defense. I have not tested him out with Gravitar. But with all the self heal power, I find that I don't have to block any huge attacks from Jack Fool whereas the 2 characters above need to block.
Defiance, when properly stated, can you get a much larger over all damage resistance. Dont look at the resistance from gear and spec trees. That wont show what your defense passive is doing on top of that. at approx 300 Con you should be getting 18%ish defense, per stack of defiance.
Invulnerable on the other hand offers less over all resistance. about 75 to 80% depending on your super stats. Its main advantage is after calculating resistance it offers a flat damage mitigation. This mitigation alone can take minor hits and remove them to absolute minimum damage.
So Invulnerable allows you to take barrages of small hits and mitigate them to next to nothing where Defiance will only reduce damage by a percentage. However, as Defiance has a higher base resistance it starts to be more favorable as the hits get larger. Where raw resistance will beat out flat mitigation.
True but in the Mega D invasions..ppl will be begging for a defensive passive buff of some sort or another. I saw my friends FF Defiant/bestial/might build die against Mega D's and some Invuln ppl survive.
That said I have seen some people with Invuln and dodge/avoid then sliced and diced, which is worrying.
I am concerned that my 14.5k hp (370 CON) Behemoth may not survive this invasion...I had high hopes for my Master AT, but after seeing that damage from these guys sort of bypasses dodge/avoid mechanic like a DW to defense, I am very worried.
I am sure FF builds will do well against these bullies. I have NO doubt about that, the majority of FF players IMO are very talented in building and could get around this issue that all non 120ft sniping power AT's will have.
I cant express how sorry I feel for Melee DPS AT's...Melee in general actually...
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This event MIGHT give Impulse AT's who run PFF some kind of (dare I say) "Edge" over other defensive passives. Even though at 100% shields it will still let ~5% damage through to you and fall damage bypasses PFF, and ofc VIPER soliders do as well :mad:!!!
PFF through block can do quite well for about 3-4 seconds against Mega D Eye Beam, well a 6.5k one anyway.
But I am probably wrong lol, I can see AoPM builds running with dodge tanks and uber healers doing well in this event. Shielding and Active Defensives like Breakable, Masterful Dodge and Field Surge will to next to nothing against these monsters.
Active Defenses do need a buff to get upto scratch with current standards of damage IMO
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Where Defiance excels is taking the big schtick attacks from boss++. The big hits are space far apart. So it's very bursty DPS.. Versus crowds minions and lieutenants is where Defiance will fall behind. The constant DPS will nickel and dime you to defeat. That's where Invulnerability excels.
Nice summary but this then begs the question of the final defensive passive Personal Force Field. In the Impulse AT, it takes alot of effort, CD reduction gear,spamming Proc Field, INT as well as blocking to keep PFF activated. PFF doesnt excell in boss fights and within a couple of hits it is down and out. In mobs it does ok until about the 5 second mark then "trash mobs" do enough damage to deactivate it
Urgh..don't even get me started on VIPER :mad:
I dont think I've used a passive which requires so much maintainance to keep it going.
I know some FFs who make it look easy but for Impulse and compared to defensive counterparts well...it doesnt do as well as I thought it would.
((When I first came to this game I was drawn to PFF's description as I linked it to the Personal Force Field in CoH))
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Invulnerability: Yes, you're sturdy, and you'll handle most stuff in the game pretty well - until something hits you really hard. Then your health drops and you have no real way to recover it. You can take a self heal like Resurgence, then get killed while you wait for it to recharge. You're better off with Regen and Inertial Dampening.
Defiance: Like Invulnerability, except small attacks will chew you up with little way to recover. Of course, most content in the game is little attacks, so you'll feel pretty flimsy most of the time.
Lightning Reflexes: Ugh. WORST passive defense ever. Dodging isn't really dodging. You're really rolling with punches. You have to build for both dodge AND avoidance, so you have more to worry about than the other passives. I swear, I felt like I had no passive at all with this power. Yes, I can get Burning Chi with Resurgent Reiki, but if have to have that, it's not LR that's keeping me alive, it's BCR+RR, which is just a high maintenance Regeneration.
Personal Force Field: I can't say anything about this, as I haven't really tried it.
Basically, my Regeneration characters (ie. anything that doesn't use an offensive or support passive) are FAR more survivable than any other character I've played. For me, the proof is in the pudding.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Not in my experience. I've played characters to high level with Regen, Invulnerability, Defiance and Lightning Reflexes (also some of the other passives), and none perform as well overall as Regeneration. With regeneration, I can take on huge groups of foes, and with patience and appropriate blocking, I can defeat them all. I can't do that with any of the other passives.
For example, taking on MegaD at L30, my Regeneration tank was able to go toe to toe, blocking only the big chargeup attacks. MegaD's punches were not enough to take me out.
My Invulnerability Tank would lose about half his health from one of those punches, but would have no way to get it back. I could use a self heal, but the next punch would put me in the same shape with no heal to use. Defiance was about the same, really.
Lightning Reflexes did basically nothing. One punch would do so much damage that if I wasn't defeated outright, I was left with a sliver.
Again, your milage may vary, but that has been my experience.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
Oh please, I've tanked her with PFF. Regen would be a cakewalk.
That Dork In The Suspenders, signing out.
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Quite trivial, by now. Frosticus though is a whole another matter; even Silverspar has difficulty with only regen.
More on topic though ... how has Frosty changed how these passives are perceived?
PFF isn't good for taking his ice daggers atm, Regen bit better off but requires good block timing (and release to let regen tick between blocks), Invuln a bit better than that (in terms of reliability and ease), Defiance after that (assuming 6 stacks). Best is 100% dodge builds using LR as the base. Laser Knight, Ebon Sigils, Ebon Void w/ VD, flat dodge boosts, dual ADs (one being MD), dual bubbles, at least one reg heal are all the best things to pick from thus far to help one legit tank Frosty (and by 'legit' I mean not exploiting his range). -%dmg debuffs also help a pretty good deal (though ebon sigils w/ Pres gearing seem to have the most impact out of any one of them; Crip Challenge ofc also being good). The support you layer on top of the passive can matter almost as much as the passive itself.
Melee is both favored by Laser Knight or Elusive Monk, and also disfavored by suffering ice prisons (while ranged tanks can tank far away enough to never or rarely get frozen)- if melee, you need to have one AD ready for ice prisons or ur likely a goner regardless of the build.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Perhaps it's because I'm using it on a FreeForm take of the Specialist! once I make the Martial art character ingame who use Dodge skills I may chance my mind
I feel like I constanltly need to Babysit my Bubble so It won't drop to Zero while dealing with the Mob Groups/Boss which I got agro
this skill should be renamed from "Defensive Passive" into "DEFEND-YOUR-PASSIVE" as TheRavenForce stated
DONE!
Milo enjoys beating the shiz out the Latex Fetishist lady, YAYZ