All kinds of bravo. My parents always said that if you can't explain something simply then you don't understand it well enough, and by golly you sure do.
All kinds of bravo. My parents always said that if you can't explain something simply then you don't understand it well enough, and by golly you sure do.
I don't have them backwards, it is an issue of semantics.
The Str based resistance automatically absorbs all damage that is equal or less than it's value.
The Con based reduction reduces what gets past that by the standard defense mechanics I outlined in the main post.
These terms fit what they are called in the Champions Role Playing Game, Damage Resistance stops damage, and Damage Reduction reduces damage.
You still have it backwards in the way that it currently works. Right now when taking damage the Con aspect (reduction) is applied first, then the Str aspect (resistance).
You still have it backwards in the way that it currently works. Right now when taking damage the Con aspect (reduction) is applied first, then the Str aspect (resistance).
Oh, I see what you mean now.. yes, it was changed in mid closed beta, and I never updated the text to match.. my mistake. I'll fix that, thanks for the heads up!
Noob here just starting out in Champions. Am starting my first tank (well.. my first researched tank above lvl 20- I am a non-recovering altaholic), and this really helped me out in understanding in what direction to go!!!
While I have you here- I am thinking about making a "Con/End Aoe Tank." After reading your post (several times) I am thinking of taking your advice and going Regeneration and Force Shield to do some Turtling in order to build my energy for my big energy needs for my AOEs.
I will have some individual attacks (like Demolish) for PVP and bosses, but for AOEs was thinking about using Pyre, Spark Storm, and maybe Gigawatt. I was also looking at Force (when I was thinking of trying PFF) and saw some good potential for synergy between cascading "something or other" (the tier 3 power), and the tier 2 Aoe nuke that hits twice as hard if the targets are currently held (which they are from cascading whatever it is called- sorry for being so technical....). My main idea is to SS Con and End, feed Dex a little to add to my def, and then just try to put the rest into Rec to let me have access to some of these large Aoes. I was thinking I could blow off one Aoe like Pyre for the dot, and then turtle a bit to build up enough energy to pop out and pyre again and finish anyone standing with Spark Storm.
Is there a heal you prefer for tanking? I am thinking I will need one...
Please feel free to advise/suggest anything you think would be relevant, as I need all the help I can get. Thanks again for offering such help to us beginners!!!!!
Is there a heal you prefer for tanking? I am thinking I will need one...
Please feel free to advise/suggest anything you think would be relevant, as I need all the help I can get. Thanks again for offering such help to us beginners!!!!!
You are welcome.
I have two different defense strategies I mainly utilize, although only one of them has been taken to 40.
My main alt is a TK Blader + some Telepathy and Darkness, with a tiny dip into Gadteering and Celestial. Force Shield + Linger Regenner. Super stats are End/Rec.
I have him set up mainly in two different roles.
Defense roles is specced mainly on Recovery, so his Regen is at it's strongest. End is still very high. In this role my standard regen value is 280, and scales up to 700 / 2 secs. With Rank three Force Shield on, I am very tough, and heal back most damage faster than I take it, during the 10 seconds the linger lasts I am fairly tough, certainly tough enough to defeat 'tough' foes with my offensive powers.
Offense role swaps out some of his Rec gear for Endurance gear, really pushing his End over the top and Rec is still high. I run rank 3 Shadow form which scales on End, and at this much I get a full +50% bonus damage, and that is on top of the 20% Avenger role damage bonus. I am squishy, but dealing almost twice the damage in this state, and it's my usual role now unless I run into 'tough' foes or ones I can't defeat quickly. Not very many of them in PvE.
I also have a Force and Might hybrid character, he is a Str/Con Invulnerability guy I love playing, at level 28 now. Also gets a lot of mileage out of Force Shield rank 3 + linger. In this case though, it's less about adding to his toughness [although it certainly helps], but more about the fact that Force Shield feeds you energy as you are attacked, and this works during the 10 second linger as well. This means my low end, low red guy has all the energy he needs.
I also use the Force Darts advantage with the chance to proc a free energy form bubble around you character, not for the added toughness, but to give him the much reduced cost on Force Cascade.
I was wondering what your thoughts were on the potential of a Might/Fire Aoe Dot Tank....?
I was thinking of going Con/End splitting my powers somewhat equally between Might Melee attacks, and Fire dots. My concept up to around lvl 26 is
Clobber
Mighty Leap
Room Sweeper
Teleport
Regeneration
Thermal Reverberation
Hay Maker
Eye of the Storm
Pyre
Masterful Dodge
Flash-fire
I was thinking that I could start a Flash-fire dot on a group, then Mighty Leap in, build energy to Pyre, and then I could go with Eye of the storm for added consistent damage aside from the two fire dots and the extra defense. Once the dots are in effect thermal reverberation should be boosting my energy, and then I could gauge how things were feeling, and either throw another set of dots to cycle through another round, or start focusing on the bosses with the hay maker or throw on the Masterful dodge for an additional def buff aside from the eye of storm's if I was taking a beating.
I guess what I am asking is;
-do you think the accumulated damage of Pyre and Flashfire along with eye of the storm is sufficient with the occasional hay maker or room sweeper to help things along?
-do you think the focus of Con/End is correct for this build? What other stats should I focus on?
-aside from Force Shield, a heal, and maybe demolish or Fireball, what other powers do you recommend I pick up?
Based on another post in the Forums, I decided to try Defiance with my Gadgeteer. The reason was that I already do a lot of blocking (letting my Muni Bots attack, waiting for my power cooldowns), and my current defensive passive (LR) wasn't appropriate to my Gadgeteering build.
The initial test of the result was a resounding success. The toon was level 20, so I tried the new build in UTC Arena. Without sticking to one team, I think I had a 10-4 record, and frequently had 9+ kills. I believe my worst games were 1-1, 3-3 and 4-2, appropriate to being one of the higher level toons. I also tried quickly the toon in a lvl 22-23 Viper area, and did well.
Switching to Defiance also meant being able to SS CON and upped the power of Resurgence. Since my Gadgeteer has INT as a SS, REC and END are not worth as much, so it's a terrific combo.
I have a lv27 Toon with over 140 Str and Con to go with Invul, and I still get my **** kick all the time. Guess I need to go back to Defiance. What do you guys think-since you guys know what is good.
Thanks
Oh and I do focus on might with some guns and single blade.
You know, I don't think you're doing anything wrong. Today, with my lvl 32 Power Armour character, I used my free retconn. For some reason, I had some bizarre stats selected. I had a lot of ego and presence and recovery selected. I selected super strength and other strength, constitution and intelligence stats. My strength is much higher (not sure what it is now). I have rank 3 invulnerability and I noticed zero change in damage reduction from Invulnerability. Is this working properly? Has anyone else noticed this when they retconned their characters?
I have recently been informed of a bug in Invulnerability that causes it to become buffed by any outside Damage buff on your character, such as a crafting damage buff or red orbs.
I'll need to do more testing, but since I've heard about this bug I've been watching my Inv. tooltip, and it does indeed go up whenever my character is damage buffed, sometimes significantly.
The last word I can find on this bug is that the Devs are aware of it, but when it was corrected on the test server the power started seriously under-performing, so the power has been allowed to remain in it's present bugged [but stronger] state, presumably until all [defense?] passives get a new balance pass.
You know, I see that story recycled quite often, and like the telephone game, the original message has been kind of distorted.
The 'bug' in invulnerability was that it was considering any superstat, and not just strength, when calculating the '- XX damage' portion of Invulnerability. AFAIK, this no longer is the case.
Invulnerability (and Defiance as well) scaling with the Arms buff or with Red Orbs is, I think, intentional to keep it in line with what orb pickups and other crafting buffs can provide. Invulnerability + Science's regen, for example, makes a character pretty well unstoppable, as you gain HP similar to low end regen, plus you're already invulnerable. Regen + Yellow Orbs is similarly insanely tough, as your constantly recovering HP are being scaled through a defense buff.
So, yes, Invulnerability and Defiance appear to benefit from offensive buffs. Is this a bug? Not sure about that...
You know, I see that story recycled quite often, and like the telephone game, the original message has been kind of distorted.
The 'bug' in invulnerability was that it was considering any superstat, and not just strength, when calculating the '- XX damage' portion of Invulnerability. AFAIK, this no longer is the case.
Actually, the bug was always that it applies damage bonuses to the effect of invulnerability, and that bug appears to still be present. Superstats are merely the most common damage bonus possessed by characters, and thus 'scaling with superstats' is really a keyword for 'scaling with damage bonuses'.
Actually, the bug was always that it applies damage bonuses to the effect of invulnerability, and that bug appears to still be present. Superstats are merely the most common damage bonus possessed by characters, and thus 'scaling with superstats' is really a keyword for 'scaling with damage bonuses'.
Like the previous two powers, these two are designed around a polar opposite effect, and thus different playstyles.
Personal Force Field [PFF] Is essentially meant to make you very tough at the start of a fight, but weaker and far less tough as a fight drags on.
It is basically nothing more than a pool of temporary hit points that are separate from your character, scale with [Endurance], and slowly refresh themselves on a slow constant trickle. The refresh rate scales with [Ego]. Since the refresh rate is generally lower than incoming damage, it pays to quickly defeat foes before they can bring down your Force Field, and get to the juicy, fragile hero underneath. Even when it is up 5% of all damage will punch through no matter what, and this scales up out of your characters favor the stronger the attack is.
Note that the Force framework also includes a Field Surge power that spends some of your energy to quickly give your force field a refresh or bring it back up if it dropped [and is designed to be hit as often as it is ready to keep your Force Field at full strength in constant battle scenarios].
The Force Energy building "Fighting attack" also includes an advantage that gives a 10% change to proc a 100 strength Field refresh, and these will even give you a FF in offence role, where you normally couldn't have one. They just won't last long if you don't also have PFF slotted and active in Balanced or Defense Role.
[EDITS] Last I heard the fighting attack advantage bubble no longer goes on top, but underneath the main bubble, and block is underneath it as well. No, I really don't have any idea why.
Regeneration is the polar opposite of PFF, and is designed to be weak at the start of a fight, but escalates in power as a character continually takes damage.
This is accomplishes by a Heal Over Time [HOT] effect, that starts weak but it's intensity scales with damage taken. Recovery governs it somewhat but it is a pretty good power out of the box, and increasing Rec does not over power the defense the way Dex powers Lightning Reflexes. Having more hit points will keep you alive longer for it's effects to strengthen, so Con helps indirectly, simply by giving you a larger buffer of time before you would drop that the effect can then strengthen over.
The Supernatural Framework that Regeneration is in also has a "Health Surge" power, which is a strong self heal that can seriously save your butt as a panic button, but using it Strengthens your regeneration HOT effect to highest levels, so you can use it as an emergency butt saver and it powers up your basic regen to help get you out of those trouble spots. This power scales with Con. It is in essence the Regens version of Field Surge.
Defiance is a cross between Inv and PFF, but designed to be stronger later, like Reg.
This is accomplished by not protecting your character at all until it takes at least some damage, but then applying a stacking resistance buff that seems to come to about +10% DB each, roughly, and this value is supposed to scale with [Con]. Raising the rank of the power itself lowers the time between stacks, so it will hit max resistance [roughly 60-80% DB, slightly above what Inv gives] faster.
Rank 1 allows a new Defiance buff every 5 seconds
Rank 2 allows a new Defiance buff every 4 seconds
Rank 3 allows a new Defiance buff every 3 seconds
And if Con is increased then the amount each stack of Defiance gives for DB should be higher as I mention above.
Tooltips and Devs claim 8 stacks max, I have never seen more than 6, ever.
Defiance also has a built in Energy gain, any time you take damage, you get energy from it, and this is on top of energy gained from blocking if you are doing so. This makes Defiance the premier defense passive for players planning to Turtle or be a tank/brick type. You never gain energy any faster than your rank of Defiance gives stacks. At rank 3, you can get energy at most every three seconds.
It also pairs well with another Brick Power called Enrage, the infamous "hit harder" power with the "Grow Bigger" advantage. Using enrage not only grants one "stack" of Enrage, it also converts all existing stacks of Defiance on your character into Enrage stacks as well. Each one increases your size and damage potential, and then Defiance begins rebuilding from scratch as normal.
This power has an Advantage you can buy that gives your character increasing Knockback and Stun resistance as your health decreases, which is a great addition for any melee character, but taking it prevents you from getting to rank 3, unfortunately, so it's a choice you have to make for yourself. I'd imagine it's worth it if your character does not have Stated Str, and needs the extra KB protection.
I noticed you had to edit in Defiance. Defiance doesn't get strong in the end, this is a false interpretation. As people are moving closer to 40, the mobs become weak. SO it is easy to think Defiance gets stronger the higher you go, it doesn't. Defiance is lousy against mobs higher level then you or are not of minion quality.
I noticed you had to edit in Defiance. Defiance doesn't get strong in the end, this is a false interpretation. As people are moving closer to 40, the mobs become weak. SO it is easy to think Defiance gets stronger the higher you go, it doesn't. Defiance is lousy against mobs higher level then you or are not of minion quality.
If you just noticed, than you haven't been watching at all. This post never had anything 'edited' in as added content, but is an updated copy/paste from my original thread in Closed [then open] Beta, with new numbers. I guess I should have taken out that [And now Defiance] bit left over, since back in Beta it was a later addition.
And Defiance clearly gets better at the end of a fight [not at the end of your adv career, as you seem to have misinterpreted], it give resistance per stack gained, and you are likely to have all 6 [should be 8?] after awhile.
If you just noticed, than you haven't been watching at all. This post never had anything 'edited' in as added content, but is an updated copy/paste from my original thread in Closed [then open] Beta, with new numbers. I guess I should have taken out that [And now Defiance] bit left over, since back in Beta it was a later addition.
And Defiance clearly gets better at the end of a fight [not at the end of your adv career, as you seem to have misinterpreted], it give resistance per stack gained, and you are likely to have all 6 [should be 8?] after awhile.
I don't see it getting better at the end of a fight. I attribute that phenomenon to there being less mobs to kill. I can get the stack to 6, and I have to use defense combo to get it to 8.
I don't see it getting better at the end of a fight. I attribute that phenomenon to there being less mobs to kill. I can get the stack to 6, and I have to use defense combo to get it to 8.
*facepalms*
Look, I don't know if you're just trying to be contrary or what, but what I was saying is that starting with no stacks and ending with more than no stacks means you are tougher, as a fight has progressed.
Having done some further analysis on current builds, it appears that Regen is about equivalent to having an extra click heal such as BCR (depending on what your stats look like.) It is a little better than most click heals because it can scale up to about 1.25-1.5x an average click heal with incoming damage, and because it gives bonus breakfree damage, but it has a harsher cap on how much it can be scaled upwards because of having a fixed maximum. Thus, the main benefit of Regen as opposed to something like BCR is that you don't have to click it (which can sometimes be important.)
Since a typical L40 tank type character might have a mitigation passive (LR, Invuln, or occasionally Defiance) and 2+ self-heals, this would imply if you use Regen and want to have tank-like survivability, you should probably to grab at least one maintainable DR-buffing power and at least one other solid click-heal such as BCR in order to get roughly comparable survivability to an average current tank build.
There aren't a ton of options for stacking maintainable DR buffs, but they do exist. There aren't a ton of options when it comes to click-heals either, but they are at least more commonly known and used. Of course, the problem with taking additional click heals to supplement Regen is they don't scale on the same stats, but many tanks don't bother with PRE anyway, so this shouldn't be an insurmountable problem. I'll leave it to the reader to come up with a suitable build; there are a number of possibilities.
In theory you could build a character with tank-like defenses with no passive at all; however, this would likely be more trouble than it's worth in terms of eating up many of your power/advantage picks to enable it, and in terms of maintaining the various buffs and heals you would need during play. It would also be significantly more difficult to actually do effective damage while tanking with such a build.
@ Rune:
Hey, great thread here - enough of the math behind the apparent numbers was black-boxed to the point of instant confusion to anyone of my noobey-ness; and enough seems counter-intuitive enough to stay that way. ALOT more has been made clear by this.
Alot of the talks I've had with other players goes straight to "why didn't they" - etc - and yes, hero system has nearly 30 yrs of playtest in it, and for any devs, no matterhow talneted, to think thye could do better in a short time-frame..well, I always end up saying, hey,this started as another game, they did what they could.
With that caveat aside, I'd like to get to what i was opining - I suppose this could go in 'suggestions' but I don't believe those get read much, and this is more discussion than suggestion anyway - and who better to use as a sounding board than the guy who has made himself the "go-to guy" for defense? So :
Briefly, I want to point out, nearly as an aside, the inability to avoid damage, going back to OLD D&D, and the addiction to healing (the in-combat, heal to win, that is the bane of exciting comabt, is an EQ, not D&D, artifact, however) - is an artifact of games other thna champions, and genres other than superheroes. NOt alot of' healing to win' in the superhero genre. IF this seems unrelated, I assert one isn't paying attention. At least in CO iI don't hear "I'm not doing this mission without a celestial" - if that doesn't open the other can of worms (?there's no need for teamwork in co because the characters all get spec'd to self-heal... SO is ther no reason fro team work but needing heal-bots? RLY? )
To seperate one aspect of this without seeing the dependencies seems a little short-sighted; but let's move on!
Specifically, it was your thread that finally explained to me WHY dodge seemed so.. weird. MAybe by dodge i should say, Lightning Reflexes.
Dodge, to some degree, seems to have replaced "defensive combat value" - for anyone rerading this who both cares and doesn't know, hero system based hitting a target primarily on accuracy/skill (offense value) versus avoidance (defense value) - rather than assuming a hit that you have a chance to dodge, and a miss missed, rather than a dodge REDUCING damage...
This was much friendlier to spider-man or bat-man types who fought by speed but could theoretically be hurt by bullets, etc. - they were simply very unlikely to get hit by "normals".
Now, as I understood your post, Lightning Reflexes in effect simply makes the dodge mechanic - the "passive" defensive value if u will - better, but since the changes you mentioned, not all that good.
In fact, I am consistently told to replace my dodge abilities with regeneration by players - which may work, but I have a character concept to preserve here! ...MUST my martial artist regenerate like a werewolf to be a viable character?
... I'm sure as the game develops, 'balance' will improve and specific builds or powers will seem less clearly "mandatory".
SO, other than talking shop, I did have a point - while a passive-slot "dodge buff" seems not a bad idea at all, I wanted the thoughts on this by the defense meister -
It seems to me, in a superhero context, generally someone who is dodging, isn't going to be blocking - for what i call the "shield block a frost giant" phenomenon - a martial artist "blocking" the swing of a brick would be a nice, red mist...
SO, what if there was a DODGE that slotted in as a Block-replace power, but "worked" - that is, actually avoided the damage - actually made it a MISS.
We were already bemoaning the lack of a dodge animation - I think everyone would like to see their speed- based character leap out of the way of an attack and making it an active block-replace would hopefully, as the Dev's appearred to be doing, keep dodge from entirely breaking the game.
Just thoughts - but i couldn't see who better to discuss them with.
Thanks again for pointing out some of the til-now inexplicable numbers I was seeing w/ LR. ( esp re:my DEX not seeming to help).
Unitl LYnx shuts up; Badger.
I'll tackle all of the HERO talk in these beginning paragraphs.
I am intimately familiar with Champions and the HERO system as it was my game of choice for near a decade [primarilly 4th edition Big Blue Book], but I played and still own the very first Champions paperback RPG and everything up through 4th edition, and several selected 5th ed. books I used for background extras in my M&M games.
All that said, HERO system was not purchased nor liscened by Cryptic, only the Intellectual property of the Champions setting was, so Cryptic actually couldn't use HERO system even if they wanted to try and convert it into an MMO.
Also, I'd noticed a fairly new trend in Champions characters modeled on dodginess often had Damage Resistance or other resistant defenses purchased as "Combat Luck", sometimes on a dex roll, to give them greater survivability when their DCV failed them.
The thing is, Lighting reflexes does a pretty good job of simulating dodgy character as it is now, in my opinion. Even better, it's pretty well balanced against the other defenses, especially with the tweaks coming in on the Public Test Server, making it a better choice in the low game than it had been, and no longer the only end game choice.
I do think a Block power could be written and added to the Martial Arts trees that gives a dodging animation rather then an arms raised one, but it's mechanics wouldn't need to be any different form any other block power.
Accuracy in Champions Online results in increased damage, and dodging reduces damage, and a blcok power with a dodging animation effect would fit neatly into the Martial arts trees.
There is also nothing wrong with taking any particular power you like [and effects build off of your chosen stats] and call it whatever you want, just like in the Hero System.
I myself have a Lightning Reflexes character who is a completely normal human [an Extreme Sports Gadgeteer heroine], who describes her defense in-game as a skin tight, energy and kinetic dampening force field of her own design. I also have a Speedster character wielding Force and Might powers, using Invulnerability described as "automatically dodging most assaults so fast you don't even see him move out of the way".
And since Invulnerability can simulate taking no damage below a certain threshold, maybe this is what you can look at?
ok i have made a might character and am using defience ( stance 1 ), then switch to invul ( stance 2 ) after i get 3-5 defience stack. Now here is the question what " role " should i be in for both stances? i believe i can only choose between defender and balanced.
ok i have made a might character and am using defience ( stance 1 ), then switch to invul ( stance 2 ) after i get 3-5 defience stack. Now here is the question what " role " should i be in for both stances? i believe i can only choose between defender and balanced.
I don't know if you saw this already, but apparently even after you switch you can keep up Defiance with Defensive Combo. I saw that in the forums, along with a mention that it is the way to get to 8 stacks.
Also, I wonder if Regen or Lightning Reflexes would actually be stronger stacked with Defiance, since INV+Defiance might be diminishing returns - is it on the 1/(1+x) model?
If I were trying for the ultimate tank, I would try CON/DEX, Science Crafter (for the 5 minute low end regen),
yup i use def combo to keep defience going when im in invul mode, but still dont know if i should be in protecter role or balanced role. right now im in bal role for both and when i switch to invul my damg midigation is really good. just would like to know if the lower damg in def role is worth the higher def
yup i use def combo to keep defience going when im in invul mode, but still dont know if i should be in protecter role or balanced role. right now im in bal role for both and when i switch to invul my damg midigation is really good. just would like to know if the lower damg in def role is worth the higher def
You could do both - start out in balanced, switch to protecter when needed.
I saw this when you put up the original months ago. Good job man. And i'm glad that our SG's are allies now. BTW, your kitty picture makes me lol everytime
Nice post (what I understood of it, Math makes my eyes bleed)
I have a quick question:
Say I have a character that has regen as a passive. How much will I gimp myself if I dont take Rec as a super stat?
Also if I have a character that has Invulnerability as a passive. How much will I gimp myself if I take Con only as a super stat?
I'm having trouble figuring out how much I need to pour into a stat to get a good return. So the first character that has Regen can I just super stat recovery and not worry about more recovery or should that be what I spend my equipment slots on? Im trying to make a mage tank type character. What I would love to do it super state Con/Dex but Im afraid I will be totally gimp at 40.
I'm not sure how to phrase the question better than that
I just did a test myself against the blue laser in the powerhouse. Here's what I came up with.
Ari'Jab currently has 236 CON at level 38.
The constant of the laser is always 3514.
I will show how the damage was reported similar to the combat log.
2 stacks: 2403 (3514) 68.3% damage taken
3 stacks: 2232 (3514) 63.5% damage taken
4 stacks: 2084 (3514) 59.3% damage taken
5 stacks: 1955 (3514) 55.6% damage taken
6 stacks: 1841 (3514) 52.3% damage taken
With 6 stacks of Defiance he takes 52.3% of the damage from the laser, which means he has 47.7% damage resistance. Additionally Defiance granted him 49 energy from each of the laser shots. When I get to level 40 I'll test again against invuln to see which of the two passive defenses truly give the most damage resistance. I'll be able to have 292 STR or 292 CON at any given time once I'm at level 40.
On a side note, when I took off Defiance to test how much damage i took without it on, I received 2403 damage. Just like when I had 2 stacks. It happened about 6 times so I know it wasn't a fluke. I'm fairly certain that this means either the power is bugged for the first hit you take, or I was getting the benefit of having 2 stacks even though I did not have the power active.
When compared to Defiance, it really puts Defiance to shame. As Defiance is allegedly supposed to have far more damage resistance at higher levels than Invulnerability.
Rank 3 Defiance:
5 stacks: 1955 (3514)
6 stacks: 1841 (3514)
Rank 3 Invuln:
CONSTANT: 1889 (3514)
That is between 5 and 6 stacks of Defiance. And considering that it takes no LESS than 9 seconds from rank 3 of Defiance to get 6 stacks, that is ridiculous.
On a side note, while I was testing Defiance again today I received 8 stacks of Defiance. While at 8 stacks the damage went all the way down to 1451, it also hit 1651 a couple times. If Defiance were allowed to stack up to 8 times as it used to be advertised, then it would truly have more defense than Invuln at higher levels, and not just the HIGHEST level.
Just did the same test with Ari'Jab using Invulnerability at the same level and stats.
Invuln mitigated the damage from the laser the exact same way every time.
rank 3: 1889 (3514)= 53.7% damage taken. Which means 46.3% damage resistance.
Invuln SAYS that it is giving 34% damage resistance and Absorbs up to 61 damage. However it is clear that it is giving far more defense that it is suppose to be giving. Even if you take away the 61 damage absorption the hit is...
1950 (3514)=55.4% damage taken=44.6% damage resisted. Still 10% more damage resistance than 34% that the power is advertising that I should be receiving.
When compared to Defiance, it really puts Defiance to shame. As Defiance is allegedly supposed to have far more damage resistance at higher levels than Invulnerability.
Rank 3 Defiance:
5 stacks: 1955 (3514)
6 stacks: 1841 (3514)
Rank 3 Invuln:
CONSTANT: 1889 (3514)
That is between 5 and 6 stacks of Defiance. And considering that it takes no LESS than 9 seconds from rank 3 of Defiance to get 6 stacks, that is ridiculous.
On a side note, while I was testing Defiance again today I received 8 stacks of Defiance. While at 8 stacks the damage went all the way down to 1451, it also hit 1651 a couple times. If Defiance were allowed to stack up to 8 times as it used to be advertised, then it would truly have more defense than Invuln at higher levels, and not just the HIGHEST level.
LOL did you consider the % you receive from Energy resistance and Physical resistance? those are around 30% >_> if you have blue/purple items. Sigh I can't believe you missed taking this into account.(you can find those around the % dodge and aversion numbers in your stat window and don't forget to place ur cursor over them to get the actual % !! lol )
After testing him without any passive slot again, his armor seems to be giving him 19.2% damage resistance. However he get's more than that if I recently had Defiance up. I still get the benefit from it even though it is not active nor is the power icon up on the UI where active buffs/debuffs are.
Without any passive defense on he takes:
2840 (3514)=80.8% damage taken=19.2% damage resisted.
Yeah lol. But still, even with that considered Defiance STILL only gives better resistance than invuln at 6 stacks. So invuln may be working alright, actually after what I just looked at it might not be giving all that it should. But regardless the constant is the same so even if I misinterpreted the amount Invuln should have given, the fact that it is better than Defiance until rank 6 remains factual.
Yeah lol. But still, even with that considered Defiance STILL only gives better resistance than invuln at 6 stacks. So invuln may be working alright, actually after what I just looked at it might not be giving all that it should. But regardless the constant is the same so even if I misinterpreted the amount Invuln should have given, the fact that it is better than Defiance until rank 6 remains factual.
Oh that is true but sill I had to mention it otherwise someone might think that there is a bug with INVU and report it and what not lol and we don't want that do we .
I tested all the defense values a few days back. At lvl 40, on test, with 222 in CON and STR:
Rank 3 Invulnerability: 693/1287 damage taken.
Defiance: 704/1287 damage taken.
As far as the resist portion, R3 invulnerability is fairly close to 6 stacks of defiance. Then Invulnerability gets the damage mitigation and Defiance gets the energy gain.
As far as the resist portion, R3 invulnerability is fairly close to 6 stacks of defiance. Then Invulnerability gets the damage mitigation and Defiance gets the energy gain.
I'm still trying to figure out which one I like more for pvp. That's the only reason I'm putting so much energy into this. As a melee toon, with invuln you'll spend precious seconds building energy that a Defiance toon would have already had. Conversely, as Defiance toon you will die faster than an Invuln toon. And if you pick up Defiance, you'll be losing out on a lot of DPS without getting Enrage. And that's a power slot that could have been put to better use on an Invuln toon. ARGH!
I'm still trying to figure out which one I like more for pvp.
In PvP, it's kind of hard to avoid the occasional 20s without taking damage, resulting in your Defiance dropping out (unless we're talking ZA). The main reason to get mitigation (instead of Regen) is to survive damage spikes, and given the build rate of Defiance, a spike will probably kill you before you hit max stacks.
In PvP, it's kind of hard to avoid the occasional 20s without taking damage, resulting in your Defiance dropping out (unless we're talking ZA). The main reason to get mitigation (instead of Regen) is to survive damage spikes, and given the build rate of Defiance, a spike will probably kill you before you hit max stacks.
Ordinarily you'd be correct, but I ALWAYS carry at least 2 active defenses.
I have news to report. As I was retesting Defiance and Invuln against the blue laser something happened. The blue laser is no longer hitting for (3514). It's now hitting for around (1875) I believe. I'm not sure if the change in damage was intentional, but that's how it is now.
The problem is that now Invuln is better than Defiance at 6 stacks. This was tested with 292 CON. I'll give some hard numbers as soon as possible. If someone else can beat me to it that'd be great.
Okay, let's look at passive defenses. First, about formulas:
Invulnerability: the mechanic is:
Apply reduction from PD/ED. This is a divisor -- i.e. 20% is a divisor of 1.20
Apply reduction from invulnerability. This is a multiplier -- i.e. 12% is a multiplier of 0.88
Apply flat reduction.
Invuln 3, Str 6, Con 6: 12% resistance, 33 points immunity
Invuln 3, Str 6, Con 200: 29% resistance, 33 immunity
Invuln 3, Str 200, Con 200: 29% resistance, 60 immunity
Regen 3, Rec 6: 202 base heal, +414 bonus from taking high damage. 2s tic.
Regen 3, Rec 200: 269 base heal, +414 bonus from taking high damage. 2s tic.
PFF 3, Ego 6, End 6: 153/460 healing, absorb 2890 damage (3s tic)
PFF 3, Ego 200, End 6: 255/765 healing, absorb 2890 damage
PFF 3, Ego 6, End 200:153/460 healing, absorb 4407 damage (+1527)
LR 3, Dex 6: +2.1% dodge chance, +56% avoidance (base values are 10% and 20%)
LR 3, Dex 200: +40% dodge chance, +146% avoidance
So, now let's look at how these compare. We'll start by looking at mitigation -- basically, this functions as multiplier on the utility of hit points and healing:
No mitigation: net toughness 1.26/1.27/1.29/1.29
Invuln 3 with no stat support: net toughness 1.87/1.63/1.56/1.49
Invuln 3 with Con support: net toughness 2.2/1.98/1.91/1.83
Invuln 3 with Str/Con support: net toughness 2.74/2.17/2.00/1.84
LR 3 with no support: net toughness 1.28/1.32/1.1.4/1.4
LR 3 with Dex support: net toughness 1.48/1.82/3.32/3.32
Now, let's consider 5 builds, and the 1s tic speed, and that regen normalizes out at 300/sec:
Con/Str, Invuln, 8,360 hp, 3,640 in heals (11k total): 23,870 damage to defeat
Con/Dex, LR, 8,360 hp, 3,640 in heals (11k total): 20,020 damage to defeat
Con/Ego, PFF, 8,360 hp, 3,640 in heals (11k total): 16,860+85/s (10s: 17,710; 20s: 18,560)
Con/End, PFF, 8,360 hp, 3,640 in heals (11k total): 18,377+51/s (10s: 18,887; 20s: 19,397)
Con/Rec, Regen, 8,360 hp, 3,640 in heals (11k total): 13,970+381/s (10s: 17,780; 20s: 21,590)
Overall, if you don't have access to block or other supplemental mitigation, PFF underperforms either Invuln or LR except in very long fights, but not by a lot, and outperforms regen in fights up to 13s. Also, if you don't want to super-stat Con, PFF+End typically outperforms LR+Dex. Given that End is probably more useful to your average build than either Dex or Str, PFF actually sounds reasonable -- if it weren't for the supplemental mitigation problem.
Wow, left out some stuff. The net toughness numbers are for: 300 damage/0.5s tick, 600 damage/1s tic, 1200 damage/2s tic, 10,000 damage/2s tic. Also, 11k total damage capacity should be 12k total.
Comments
Uh.. Thank you.
You still have it backwards in the way that it currently works. Right now when taking damage the Con aspect (reduction) is applied first, then the Str aspect (resistance).
Oh, I see what you mean now.. yes, it was changed in mid closed beta, and I never updated the text to match.. my mistake. I'll fix that, thanks for the heads up!
While I have you here- I am thinking about making a "Con/End Aoe Tank." After reading your post (several times) I am thinking of taking your advice and going Regeneration and Force Shield to do some Turtling in order to build my energy for my big energy needs for my AOEs.
I will have some individual attacks (like Demolish) for PVP and bosses, but for AOEs was thinking about using Pyre, Spark Storm, and maybe Gigawatt. I was also looking at Force (when I was thinking of trying PFF) and saw some good potential for synergy between cascading "something or other" (the tier 3 power), and the tier 2 Aoe nuke that hits twice as hard if the targets are currently held (which they are from cascading whatever it is called- sorry for being so technical....). My main idea is to SS Con and End, feed Dex a little to add to my def, and then just try to put the rest into Rec to let me have access to some of these large Aoes. I was thinking I could blow off one Aoe like Pyre for the dot, and then turtle a bit to build up enough energy to pop out and pyre again and finish anyone standing with Spark Storm.
Is there a heal you prefer for tanking? I am thinking I will need one...
Please feel free to advise/suggest anything you think would be relevant, as I need all the help I can get. Thanks again for offering such help to us beginners!!!!!
You are welcome.
I have two different defense strategies I mainly utilize, although only one of them has been taken to 40.
My main alt is a TK Blader + some Telepathy and Darkness, with a tiny dip into Gadteering and Celestial. Force Shield + Linger Regenner. Super stats are End/Rec.
I have him set up mainly in two different roles.
Defense roles is specced mainly on Recovery, so his Regen is at it's strongest. End is still very high. In this role my standard regen value is 280, and scales up to 700 / 2 secs. With Rank three Force Shield on, I am very tough, and heal back most damage faster than I take it, during the 10 seconds the linger lasts I am fairly tough, certainly tough enough to defeat 'tough' foes with my offensive powers.
Offense role swaps out some of his Rec gear for Endurance gear, really pushing his End over the top and Rec is still high. I run rank 3 Shadow form which scales on End, and at this much I get a full +50% bonus damage, and that is on top of the 20% Avenger role damage bonus. I am squishy, but dealing almost twice the damage in this state, and it's my usual role now unless I run into 'tough' foes or ones I can't defeat quickly. Not very many of them in PvE.
I also have a Force and Might hybrid character, he is a Str/Con Invulnerability guy I love playing, at level 28 now. Also gets a lot of mileage out of Force Shield rank 3 + linger. In this case though, it's less about adding to his toughness [although it certainly helps], but more about the fact that Force Shield feeds you energy as you are attacked, and this works during the 10 second linger as well. This means my low end, low red guy has all the energy he needs.
I also use the Force Darts advantage with the chance to proc a free energy form bubble around you character, not for the added toughness, but to give him the much reduced cost on Force Cascade.
I was wondering what your thoughts were on the potential of a Might/Fire Aoe Dot Tank....?
I was thinking of going Con/End splitting my powers somewhat equally between Might Melee attacks, and Fire dots. My concept up to around lvl 26 is
Clobber
Mighty Leap
Room Sweeper
Teleport
Regeneration
Thermal Reverberation
Hay Maker
Eye of the Storm
Pyre
Masterful Dodge
Flash-fire
I was thinking that I could start a Flash-fire dot on a group, then Mighty Leap in, build energy to Pyre, and then I could go with Eye of the storm for added consistent damage aside from the two fire dots and the extra defense. Once the dots are in effect thermal reverberation should be boosting my energy, and then I could gauge how things were feeling, and either throw another set of dots to cycle through another round, or start focusing on the bosses with the hay maker or throw on the Masterful dodge for an additional def buff aside from the eye of storm's if I was taking a beating.
I guess what I am asking is;
-do you think the accumulated damage of Pyre and Flashfire along with eye of the storm is sufficient with the occasional hay maker or room sweeper to help things along?
-do you think the focus of Con/End is correct for this build? What other stats should I focus on?
-aside from Force Shield, a heal, and maybe demolish or Fireball, what other powers do you recommend I pick up?
Thanks again for your help and suggestions!!!!
The initial test of the result was a resounding success. The toon was level 20, so I tried the new build in UTC Arena. Without sticking to one team, I think I had a 10-4 record, and frequently had 9+ kills. I believe my worst games were 1-1, 3-3 and 4-2, appropriate to being one of the higher level toons. I also tried quickly the toon in a lvl 22-23 Viper area, and did well.
Switching to Defiance also meant being able to SS CON and upped the power of Resurgence. Since my Gadgeteer has INT as a SS, REC and END are not worth as much, so it's a terrific combo.
You know, I don't think you're doing anything wrong. Today, with my lvl 32 Power Armour character, I used my free retconn. For some reason, I had some bizarre stats selected. I had a lot of ego and presence and recovery selected. I selected super strength and other strength, constitution and intelligence stats. My strength is much higher (not sure what it is now). I have rank 3 invulnerability and I noticed zero change in damage reduction from Invulnerability. Is this working properly? Has anyone else noticed this when they retconned their characters?
I have recently been informed of a bug in Invulnerability that causes it to become buffed by any outside Damage buff on your character, such as a crafting damage buff or red orbs.
I'll need to do more testing, but since I've heard about this bug I've been watching my Inv. tooltip, and it does indeed go up whenever my character is damage buffed, sometimes significantly.
The last word I can find on this bug is that the Devs are aware of it, but when it was corrected on the test server the power started seriously under-performing, so the power has been allowed to remain in it's present bugged [but stronger] state, presumably until all [defense?] passives get a new balance pass.
The 'bug' in invulnerability was that it was considering any superstat, and not just strength, when calculating the '- XX damage' portion of Invulnerability. AFAIK, this no longer is the case.
Invulnerability (and Defiance as well) scaling with the Arms buff or with Red Orbs is, I think, intentional to keep it in line with what orb pickups and other crafting buffs can provide. Invulnerability + Science's regen, for example, makes a character pretty well unstoppable, as you gain HP similar to low end regen, plus you're already invulnerable. Regen + Yellow Orbs is similarly insanely tough, as your constantly recovering HP are being scaled through a defense buff.
So, yes, Invulnerability and Defiance appear to benefit from offensive buffs. Is this a bug? Not sure about that...
Exactly, and my testing has now confirmed it.
I noticed you had to edit in Defiance. Defiance doesn't get strong in the end, this is a false interpretation. As people are moving closer to 40, the mobs become weak. SO it is easy to think Defiance gets stronger the higher you go, it doesn't. Defiance is lousy against mobs higher level then you or are not of minion quality.
If you just noticed, than you haven't been watching at all. This post never had anything 'edited' in as added content, but is an updated copy/paste from my original thread in Closed [then open] Beta, with new numbers. I guess I should have taken out that [And now Defiance] bit left over, since back in Beta it was a later addition.
And Defiance clearly gets better at the end of a fight [not at the end of your adv career, as you seem to have misinterpreted], it give resistance per stack gained, and you are likely to have all 6 [should be 8?] after awhile.
I don't see it getting better at the end of a fight. I attribute that phenomenon to there being less mobs to kill. I can get the stack to 6, and I have to use defense combo to get it to 8.
*facepalms*
Look, I don't know if you're just trying to be contrary or what, but what I was saying is that starting with no stacks and ending with more than no stacks means you are tougher, as a fight has progressed.
How is this hard to understand?
Since a typical L40 tank type character might have a mitigation passive (LR, Invuln, or occasionally Defiance) and 2+ self-heals, this would imply if you use Regen and want to have tank-like survivability, you should probably to grab at least one maintainable DR-buffing power and at least one other solid click-heal such as BCR in order to get roughly comparable survivability to an average current tank build.
There aren't a ton of options for stacking maintainable DR buffs, but they do exist. There aren't a ton of options when it comes to click-heals either, but they are at least more commonly known and used. Of course, the problem with taking additional click heals to supplement Regen is they don't scale on the same stats, but many tanks don't bother with PRE anyway, so this shouldn't be an insurmountable problem. I'll leave it to the reader to come up with a suitable build; there are a number of possibilities.
In theory you could build a character with tank-like defenses with no passive at all; however, this would likely be more trouble than it's worth in terms of eating up many of your power/advantage picks to enable it, and in terms of maintaining the various buffs and heals you would need during play. It would also be significantly more difficult to actually do effective damage while tanking with such a build.
Hey, great thread here - enough of the math behind the apparent numbers was black-boxed to the point of instant confusion to anyone of my noobey-ness; and enough seems counter-intuitive enough to stay that way. ALOT more has been made clear by this.
Alot of the talks I've had with other players goes straight to "why didn't they" - etc - and yes, hero system has nearly 30 yrs of playtest in it, and for any devs, no matterhow talneted, to think thye could do better in a short time-frame..well, I always end up saying, hey,this started as another game, they did what they could.
With that caveat aside, I'd like to get to what i was opining - I suppose this could go in 'suggestions' but I don't believe those get read much, and this is more discussion than suggestion anyway - and who better to use as a sounding board than the guy who has made himself the "go-to guy" for defense? So :
Briefly, I want to point out, nearly as an aside, the inability to avoid damage, going back to OLD D&D, and the addiction to healing (the in-combat, heal to win, that is the bane of exciting comabt, is an EQ, not D&D, artifact, however) - is an artifact of games other thna champions, and genres other than superheroes. NOt alot of' healing to win' in the superhero genre. IF this seems unrelated, I assert one isn't paying attention. At least in CO iI don't hear "I'm not doing this mission without a celestial" - if that doesn't open the other can of worms (?there's no need for teamwork in co because the characters all get spec'd to self-heal... SO is ther no reason fro team work but needing heal-bots? RLY? )
To seperate one aspect of this without seeing the dependencies seems a little short-sighted; but let's move on!
Specifically, it was your thread that finally explained to me WHY dodge seemed so.. weird. MAybe by dodge i should say, Lightning Reflexes.
Dodge, to some degree, seems to have replaced "defensive combat value" - for anyone rerading this who both cares and doesn't know, hero system based hitting a target primarily on accuracy/skill (offense value) versus avoidance (defense value) - rather than assuming a hit that you have a chance to dodge, and a miss missed, rather than a dodge REDUCING damage...
This was much friendlier to spider-man or bat-man types who fought by speed but could theoretically be hurt by bullets, etc. - they were simply very unlikely to get hit by "normals".
Now, as I understood your post, Lightning Reflexes in effect simply makes the dodge mechanic - the "passive" defensive value if u will - better, but since the changes you mentioned, not all that good.
In fact, I am consistently told to replace my dodge abilities with regeneration by players - which may work, but I have a character concept to preserve here! ...MUST my martial artist regenerate like a werewolf to be a viable character?
... I'm sure as the game develops, 'balance' will improve and specific builds or powers will seem less clearly "mandatory".
SO, other than talking shop, I did have a point - while a passive-slot "dodge buff" seems not a bad idea at all, I wanted the thoughts on this by the defense meister -
It seems to me, in a superhero context, generally someone who is dodging, isn't going to be blocking - for what i call the "shield block a frost giant" phenomenon - a martial artist "blocking" the swing of a brick would be a nice, red mist...
SO, what if there was a DODGE that slotted in as a Block-replace power, but "worked" - that is, actually avoided the damage - actually made it a MISS.
We were already bemoaning the lack of a dodge animation - I think everyone would like to see their speed- based character leap out of the way of an attack and making it an active block-replace would hopefully, as the Dev's appearred to be doing, keep dodge from entirely breaking the game.
Just thoughts - but i couldn't see who better to discuss them with.
Thanks again for pointing out some of the til-now inexplicable numbers I was seeing w/ LR. ( esp re:my DEX not seeming to help).
Unitl LYnx shuts up; Badger.
I'll tackle all of the HERO talk in these beginning paragraphs.
I am intimately familiar with Champions and the HERO system as it was my game of choice for near a decade [primarilly 4th edition Big Blue Book], but I played and still own the very first Champions paperback RPG and everything up through 4th edition, and several selected 5th ed. books I used for background extras in my M&M games.
All that said, HERO system was not purchased nor liscened by Cryptic, only the Intellectual property of the Champions setting was, so Cryptic actually couldn't use HERO system even if they wanted to try and convert it into an MMO.
Also, I'd noticed a fairly new trend in Champions characters modeled on dodginess often had Damage Resistance or other resistant defenses purchased as "Combat Luck", sometimes on a dex roll, to give them greater survivability when their DCV failed them.
The thing is, Lighting reflexes does a pretty good job of simulating dodgy character as it is now, in my opinion. Even better, it's pretty well balanced against the other defenses, especially with the tweaks coming in on the Public Test Server, making it a better choice in the low game than it had been, and no longer the only end game choice.
I do think a Block power could be written and added to the Martial Arts trees that gives a dodging animation rather then an arms raised one, but it's mechanics wouldn't need to be any different form any other block power.
Accuracy in Champions Online results in increased damage, and dodging reduces damage, and a blcok power with a dodging animation effect would fit neatly into the Martial arts trees.
There is also nothing wrong with taking any particular power you like [and effects build off of your chosen stats] and call it whatever you want, just like in the Hero System.
I myself have a Lightning Reflexes character who is a completely normal human [an Extreme Sports Gadgeteer heroine], who describes her defense in-game as a skin tight, energy and kinetic dampening force field of her own design. I also have a Speedster character wielding Force and Might powers, using Invulnerability described as "automatically dodging most assaults so fast you don't even see him move out of the way".
And since Invulnerability can simulate taking no damage below a certain threshold, maybe this is what you can look at?
I don't know if you saw this already, but apparently even after you switch you can keep up Defiance with Defensive Combo. I saw that in the forums, along with a mention that it is the way to get to 8 stacks.
Also, I wonder if Regen or Lightning Reflexes would actually be stronger stacked with Defiance, since INV+Defiance might be diminishing returns - is it on the 1/(1+x) model?
If I were trying for the ultimate tank, I would try CON/DEX, Science Crafter (for the 5 minute low end regen),
Here's a hacky example
Build by championBuilder 0.4.1
Download this Build here.
: Level 40 Champion
Superstats:
Level 5: Super Dexterity
Level 13: Super Constitution
Powers:
Level 1: Clobber -- Sucker Punch
Level 1: Defensive Combo -- Surge Of Strength
Level 5: Defiance -- Rank 2
Level 5: Swinging -- Flippin'
Level 8: Energy Shield -- Laser Knight
Level 11: Lightning Reflexes -- Rank 2, Rank 3
Level 14: Sparkstorm -- Electric Personality
Level 17: Bountiful Chi Resurgence -- Resurgent Reiki
Level 20: Haymaker -- Nullifying Punch
Level 23: Shadow Blast -- Crippling Challenge
Level 26: Resurgence -- Evanescent Emergence
Talents:
Level 1: The Hero
Level 6: Survival Training
Level 9: Paramilitary Training
Level 12: Martial Training
Level 15: Acrobat
Level 18: Agile
Level 21: Enduring
You could do both - start out in balanced, switch to protecter when needed.
Makes waay more sense now.
My pleasure.
and a few letters.
I have a quick question:
Say I have a character that has regen as a passive. How much will I gimp myself if I dont take Rec as a super stat?
Also if I have a character that has Invulnerability as a passive. How much will I gimp myself if I take Con only as a super stat?
I'm having trouble figuring out how much I need to pour into a stat to get a good return. So the first character that has Regen can I just super stat recovery and not worry about more recovery or should that be what I spend my equipment slots on? Im trying to make a mage tank type character. What I would love to do it super state Con/Dex but Im afraid I will be totally gimp at 40.
I'm not sure how to phrase the question better than that
With 222 CON: 6 stacks + gear reduced laser to 704/1287. Without defiance, my gear reduced laser to 1066/1287.
Ari'Jab currently has 236 CON at level 38.
The constant of the laser is always 3514.
I will show how the damage was reported similar to the combat log.
2 stacks: 2403 (3514) 68.3% damage taken
3 stacks: 2232 (3514) 63.5% damage taken
4 stacks: 2084 (3514) 59.3% damage taken
5 stacks: 1955 (3514) 55.6% damage taken
6 stacks: 1841 (3514) 52.3% damage taken
With 6 stacks of Defiance he takes 52.3% of the damage from the laser, which means he has 47.7% damage resistance. Additionally Defiance granted him 49 energy from each of the laser shots. When I get to level 40 I'll test again against invuln to see which of the two passive defenses truly give the most damage resistance. I'll be able to have 292 STR or 292 CON at any given time once I'm at level 40.
On a side note, when I took off Defiance to test how much damage i took without it on, I received 2403 damage. Just like when I had 2 stacks. It happened about 6 times so I know it wasn't a fluke. I'm fairly certain that this means either the power is bugged for the first hit you take, or I was getting the benefit of having 2 stacks even though I did not have the power active.
Invuln mitigated the damage from the laser the exact same way every time.
rank 3: 1889 (3514)= 53.7% damage taken. Which means 46.3% damage resistance.
Even if you take away the 61 damage absorption the hit is...
1950 (3514)=55.4% damage taken=44.6% damage resisted.
When compared to Defiance, it really puts Defiance to shame. As Defiance is allegedly supposed to have far more damage resistance at higher levels than Invulnerability.
Rank 3 Defiance:
5 stacks: 1955 (3514)
6 stacks: 1841 (3514)
Rank 3 Invuln:
CONSTANT: 1889 (3514)
That is between 5 and 6 stacks of Defiance. And considering that it takes no LESS than 9 seconds from rank 3 of Defiance to get 6 stacks, that is ridiculous.
On a side note, while I was testing Defiance again today I received 8 stacks of Defiance. While at 8 stacks the damage went all the way down to 1451, it also hit 1651 a couple times. If Defiance were allowed to stack up to 8 times as it used to be advertised, then it would truly have more defense than Invuln at higher levels, and not just the HIGHEST level.
*Note: Revised a few lines after further testing.
LOL did you consider the % you receive from Energy resistance and Physical resistance? those are around 30% >_> if you have blue/purple items. Sigh I can't believe you missed taking this into account.(you can find those around the % dodge and aversion numbers in your stat window and don't forget to place ur cursor over them to get the actual % !! lol )
Without any passive defense on he takes:
2840 (3514)=80.8% damage taken=19.2% damage resisted.
With rank 3 Invuln on:
1889 (3514)=53.7% damage taken=46.3% damage resisted.
With rank 3 Defiance on:
2 stacks: 2403 (3514) 68.3% damage taken=31.7% damage resisted
3 stacks: 2232 (3514) 63.5% damage taken=36.5% damage resisted
4 stacks: 2084 (3514) 59.3% damage taken=40.7% damage resisted
5 stacks: 1955 (3514) 55.6% damage taken=44.6% damage resisted
6 stacks: 1841 (3514) 52.3% damage taken=47.7% damage resisted
This is all on the live server. I'm going to go test on the PTS right now.
Oh that is true but sill I had to mention it otherwise someone might think that there is a bug with INVU and report it and what not lol and we don't want that do we
As far as the resist portion, R3 invulnerability is fairly close to 6 stacks of defiance. Then Invulnerability gets the damage mitigation and Defiance gets the energy gain.
I'm still trying to figure out which one I like more for pvp. That's the only reason I'm putting so much energy into this. As a melee toon, with invuln you'll spend precious seconds building energy that a Defiance toon would have already had. Conversely, as Defiance toon you will die faster than an Invuln toon. And if you pick up Defiance, you'll be losing out on a lot of DPS without getting Enrage. And that's a power slot that could have been put to better use on an Invuln toon. ARGH!
Ordinarily you'd be correct, but I ALWAYS carry at least 2 active defenses.
The problem is that now Invuln is better than Defiance at 6 stacks. This was tested with 292 CON. I'll give some hard numbers as soon as possible. If someone else can beat me to it that'd be great.
Invulnerability: the mechanic is:
Apply reduction from PD/ED. This is a divisor -- i.e. 20% is a divisor of 1.20
Apply reduction from invulnerability. This is a multiplier -- i.e. 12% is a multiplier of 0.88
Apply flat reduction.
Invuln 3, Str 6, Con 6: 12% resistance, 33 points immunity
Invuln 3, Str 6, Con 200: 29% resistance, 33 immunity
Invuln 3, Str 200, Con 200: 29% resistance, 60 immunity
Regen 3, Rec 6: 202 base heal, +414 bonus from taking high damage. 2s tic.
Regen 3, Rec 200: 269 base heal, +414 bonus from taking high damage. 2s tic.
PFF 3, Ego 6, End 6: 153/460 healing, absorb 2890 damage (3s tic)
PFF 3, Ego 200, End 6: 255/765 healing, absorb 2890 damage
PFF 3, Ego 6, End 200:153/460 healing, absorb 4407 damage (+1527)
LR 3, Dex 6: +2.1% dodge chance, +56% avoidance (base values are 10% and 20%)
LR 3, Dex 200: +40% dodge chance, +146% avoidance
So, now let's look at how these compare. We'll start by looking at mitigation -- basically, this functions as multiplier on the utility of hit points and healing:
- No mitigation: net toughness 1.26/1.27/1.29/1.29
- Invuln 3 with no stat support: net toughness 1.87/1.63/1.56/1.49
- Invuln 3 with Con support: net toughness 2.2/1.98/1.91/1.83
- Invuln 3 with Str/Con support: net toughness 2.74/2.17/2.00/1.84
- LR 3 with no support: net toughness 1.28/1.32/1.1.4/1.4
- LR 3 with Dex support: net toughness 1.48/1.82/3.32/3.32
Now, let's consider 5 builds, and the 1s tic speed, and that regen normalizes out at 300/sec:Con/Str, Invuln, 8,360 hp, 3,640 in heals (11k total): 23,870 damage to defeat
Con/Dex, LR, 8,360 hp, 3,640 in heals (11k total): 20,020 damage to defeat
Con/Ego, PFF, 8,360 hp, 3,640 in heals (11k total): 16,860+85/s (10s: 17,710; 20s: 18,560)
Con/End, PFF, 8,360 hp, 3,640 in heals (11k total): 18,377+51/s (10s: 18,887; 20s: 19,397)
Con/Rec, Regen, 8,360 hp, 3,640 in heals (11k total): 13,970+381/s (10s: 17,780; 20s: 21,590)
Overall, if you don't have access to block or other supplemental mitigation, PFF underperforms either Invuln or LR except in very long fights, but not by a lot, and outperforms regen in fights up to 13s. Also, if you don't want to super-stat Con, PFF+End typically outperforms LR+Dex. Given that End is probably more useful to your average build than either Dex or Str, PFF actually sounds reasonable -- if it weren't for the supplemental mitigation problem.
Wow, left out some stuff. The net toughness numbers are for: 300 damage/0.5s tick, 600 damage/1s tic, 1200 damage/2s tic, 10,000 damage/2s tic. Also, 11k total damage capacity should be 12k total.