Building dodge these days is basically 100% or bust, so your experience with LR is no surprise (specially on a ranged character, which doesn't have any way to get to 100% - correct me if wrong). For the vast majority of in-game content, Invuln or Regen trivializes it.
There are Powers that help you Build Dodge from Range actually, but they are quite a Few
Fluidity The newest Block DEVs gaves us at the Dodge Balance patch and it boost your Dodge Chance while Blocking!
with the Flowing Like the River ADV blocking for 2+ Seconds while let you keep the Dodge Bonus for 10 Seconds (decay by time)
Unfortenly this Block is HORRIBLE because it has Zero Resistance! It's all about Dodge and IF you
get dodge
Evasive Maneuvers Still pretty awesome, especially on Rank 3, but it's annoying constantly going Back Flip and being out of Range
Lead Tempest + Tread Softly ADV Really good Dodge & Avoidance Bonus, this is what I am currently using for my Build, Good AoE as well.
Shuriken Storm + Floating Butterfly ADV same as Lead Tempest, really Underrated power, it needs more Love!
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies! Playing since 1 February 2011 128 + Characters (21 ATs, 107 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
Building dodge these days is basically 100% or bust, so your experience with LR is no surprise (specially on a ranged character, which doesn't have any way to get to 100% - correct me if wrong). For the vast majority of in-game content, Invuln or Regen trivializes it.
It doesn't always have to be 100% dodge. LR still receives the least amount of damage over time of all the passives so the challenge is to survive the times when you suffer multiple undodged hits.
Elle and Raijin use STR PSS with Juggernaut, all CON mods, a Fitness BP with 2 Luck mods and Energy Shield with Laser Knight (plus 3 stacks of Grit from Warden Mastery). So with Laser Knight automatically knocking off 25%, 120-130% damage resistance from Defense and 66% Dodge (84% if you use Thundering Kicks combo) the undodged hit every now and then can be easily absorbed without ever needing to block.
When HELD, this is actually safer than the low Defense 100% dodge builds without MD ready. And when you get multiple hits (or get knocked away with a Fire Ring in between), you can block since losing Laser Knight isn't as deadly as losing Parry for the 100% dodge build.
P.S. What Shuriken Storm really needs is a less stupid looking animation for female heroes LOL!
From what you posted, I'm tempted to try to make a Monte Carlo simulation of what exactly, say, trading dodge for defense gets you (if anything). I suspect you're right though ... frozen spires just proc too frequently for 100% to actually be, well, 100%.
Been doing some thinking about defiance, invuln, and regeneration.
Note that I'm thinking of the below in terms of HPS (heal per second), not EHP (effective hit points). Reasoning is that for basically all in game content (aside from Frost), your survivability as a tank depends on mitigation AND healing, which EHP doesn't get you. (Conversely, for F&I, HPS doesn't matter because you either live with a healer, or die without one - seriously gimped builds nonwithstanding).
In the state of today's gearing, regen toons have on the order of 130% DR from defense (counting the 30 from regen). Defiance/invuln is closer to 200-250%. But, regen heals about 1500/3 seconds, or 500 HPS. Running the math (and ignoring invuln's dmg mitigation right now), def/invuln toons need 260-325 HPS to match the intrinsic HPS of regeneration. This is a maximum; because of how percentages work, this becomes smaller if you throw in things like block, LK, dodge, armadillos. That's ... lower than I expected.
What are some powers that can provide this? (Assuming 50% cooldown, which you can get by (opens solver) base INT and 345 cooldown reduction.), and also no bonus healing. Some of the most commonly used heals are:
Conviction - ~800/3 sec = 266 HPS (that about gets us there, already)
BCR - ~180/2 = 90 HPS + RR adv (insignificant vs. bosses). Two stacks can be kept up indefinitely, making this 180 HPS.
Endorphin Rush - ~200/2 = 100 HPS (hmmm). Does not scale off of defiance now though.
DE - ~140*1.5*2 = 420 HPS (R2 / Phlebotomist)
Nec. Elixir - 200-400+ HPS (depending on your build; I won't go into details here).
In other words, regen's HPS "threshold" is actually lower than I realized, even with the new "gear reality" that wasn't in place when this thread started.
PS This calculation can also be individualized; for the above, invuln gives me about 75%; defiance would give 18%*6, or 108%. This is a 34% difference. Taking for instance 200% vs 234%, this comes out to a 47 HPS difference, before invuln's dmg mitigation. Whether or not that is significant depends on your perspective.
The traditional curve for diminishing returns used to be (base value) + (constant) * (stat) / (stat + 200), though I was doing some curve fitting on passives and that wasn't quite right. The only passives with diminishing returns that I noticed are defiance, invulnerability (shielding only, % mitigation is linear), regeneration, medical nanites, and personal force field (regen rate only; field hp is linear).
The traditional curve for diminishing returns used to be (base value) + (constant) * (stat) / (stat + 200), though I was doing some curve fitting on passives and that wasn't quite right. The only passives with diminishing returns that I noticed are defiance, invulnerability (shielding only, % mitigation is linear), regeneration, medical nanites, and personal force field (regen rate only; field hp is linear).
Yea, that's why I mentioned that having the values for defiance/invuln laid out in front of me could be helpful for build planning (the values in the 1st post in this thread are woefully out of date). Also to answer that oft-asked question: what is the size of the hit that makes defiance mitigate more than invuln?
Yea, that's why I mentioned that having the values for defiance/invuln laid out in front of me could be helpful for build planning (the values in the 1st post in this thread are woefully out of date). Also to answer that oft-asked question: what is the size of the hit that makes defiance mitigate more than invuln?
Well, those values were calculated [by me] something on the order of five and a half years ago, so yes, I apologize profusely, they are way, way out of date.
Invulnerability got a big buff about a year into the games life.
LR got tweaked up, and then way down again at different points.
Defiance has remained the same scaling, but our Con values have risen so it's been buffed indirectly.
PFF has been slowly but steadily buffed up except for one small niggling bug returned to plague it.
Regen was slightly nerfed but in a way that made it feel stronger, which was very smart, and it still plays very well with a strong rank 3 Block, especially one with a linger effect advantage available such as Energy Shield, Force Shield, and my favorite, Ebon Void with Voracious Darkness adv.
Time and health no longer permit me the resources I once had for detailed numbers, but many have risen in my absence to continue the battle for the power of Math!
Hope that helps a little, maybe I can find time for a five year later anniversary update on this old thread.
First of all, historically speaking the way diminishing returns has worked is that you have a superstat target of 20 + 3.022*level*1.01^level (200 at level 40), and your normalized stat value is (stat) / (stat + target) -- a number from 0-1. I'm not sure how it changed with triple-stat for On Alert, it looks very close to using (sum of super-stats)/2 for DR, but it doesn't quite work. It may be adding a small number of stat points .
For testing, I had 0-6 R7 mods giving me stat points; for damage resist tests I used 1,500 point laser hits in the powerhouse; figure the third digit is uncertain. An R7 mode is ~62.09 stat points. I didn't do all the passives yet, but:
Invulnerability R3:
No Superstat: 2.3 damage stopped, 40% damage resist
Base Superstats (85/45/45): 82 damage stopped, 47.5% damage resist.
1 Mod: 98/50.4%
2 Mod: 112/53.1%
3 Mod: 123/55.9%
4 Mod: 132/58.7%
5 Mod: 140/61.5%
6 Mod: 146/64.6%
Damage stopped appears to be 230 * (1.2 * superstat total / (1.2 * superstat total + 400)), possibly with very small error -- it would be 1.0 at R2, 0.833 at R1. Damage resist appears to be ~0.000455 per point of superstat. Regen R3:
No Superstat: 262 heal, 30% resist.
Base Superstats (85/45/45): 415 heal, 30% resist.
1 Mod: 450 heal, 30% resist.
2 Mod: 478 heal, 30% resist.
3 Mod: 502 heal, 30% resist.
4 Mod: 523 heal, 30% resist.
5 Mod: 540 heal, 30% resist.
6 Mod: 556 heal, 30% resist.
Heal appears to be 262 + ~507 * (superstat total) / (superstat total + 400), again with very small errors that makes me think I'm missing something. It may be that 'no superstats' is actually calculated as a superstat total of about 1% of the target. Interestingly enough, there is no rank scaling other than the base (no superstats) heal value, plus the 20/25/30% damage resist value. PFF R3:
Health is 1295 + 8.1 * (superstat total). It's linear. Regen rate has diminishing returns:
No Superstat: 230 heal.
Base Superstats (85/45/45): 482 heal.
1 Mod: 538 heal.
2 Mod: 584 heal
3 Mod: 622 heal
4 Mod: 655 heal
5 Mod: 683 heal
6 Mod: 708 heal
Heal is about 230 + 688 * (superstat total) / (superstat total + 400); unlike regen, this does scale with rank.
PFF R3:
Health is 1295 + 8.1 * (superstat total). It's linear. Regen rate has diminishing returns:
No Superstat: 230 heal.
Base Superstats (85/45/45): 482 heal.
1 Mod: 538 heal.
2 Mod: 584 heal
3 Mod: 622 heal
4 Mod: 655 heal
5 Mod: 683 heal
6 Mod: 708 heal
Heal is about 230 + 688 * (superstat total) / (superstat total + 400); unlike regen, this does scale with rank.
Adding my own bit of info for this.
The shield regen rate is cut in half (for those who don't know) upon entering combat. A bug.
So that 708 shield regen becomes 354 upon entering combat.
The shield regen rate gets cut in half *again* upon hitting the damage threshold for the mechanic, which I believe is around 60-65% shields.
So from the threshold on, it is further reduced from 354 to 177. Per 3 seconds. Doubled when blocking.
Figure I would throw this in for those who look at these numbers and say "Hey, that's not bad."
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
It wouldn't be so bad if there was anything other than Field Surge that could heal PFF -- PFF does give nice spike protection, though it's terrible in a sustained tanking situation.
Consider someone with my 6 mods worth of stats (which is actually fairly low, since I didn't take any talents), with 40% mitigation from gear and 8k base hit points.
With invuln, total mitigation is 104%, so you'll get one-shotted by a hit doing (8,000+146)x2.04 = 16,617 damage. Against a sustained 2,000 dps incoming, you'll take a net 834 dps (assuming 2k hits; 4k hits every 2s will 907, 1k every 0.5s will be 688).
With Regen, total mitigation is 70%, so you'll get one-shotted by a hit doing (8,000)x1.70 = 13,600 damage. Against a sustained 2,000 dps incoming, you'll take 1,176, but you'll max out your regen (multiplying it by 2.5) for 1390 every 3 seconds or 463 per second, and you'll take a net 713 dps.
With PFF, total mitigation is 40%, and you have a 5720 hp force field. At the start of the fight, you'll get one-shoitted by a hit doing (8,000 + 5720)x1.4 or 19,208 damage. Against a sustained 2,000 dps incoming, you'll take 1,429, less the 59 hps of your PFF (lol), so you need 1370 hps. Also, your spike protection rapidly vanishes -- the invuln and regen build will generally stay at constant max hp, while the PFF build will have the PFF drop to zero and stay there.
The easiest fix is probably to just have Protection Field repair PFF.
The outcomes make sense w/ the way the PFF regen bug is now. Although I dun think Regen's DR will stay at 30% depending on ur health.
Problem is that Field Surge was made so good specifically for PFF, its very weak for most everyone else compared to the other ADs. I'd try to make less specific interactions like that, cause being shoe-horned into using other powers cause you picked a certain passive or w/e honestly kinda sucks in a game about flexible building options.
Fixing the PFF regen bug would help a good deal and really should just be the starting point. If its too much after that, for w/e reason, then they can start looking at interactions like FS's or the block multiplier. I do like that Regen and PFF have some opposing mechanics, despite both being a similar 'heal-based mitigation' concept- but I'd rather PFF be strong w/o having to block so often, and w/o relying on specific shielding powers as much as it does now.
is the information at the front of the thread still accurate? i noticed the origin date of the thread was a bit old but that the thread was still somewhat active.
is the information at the front of the thread still accurate? i noticed the origin date of the thread was a bit old but that the thread was still somewhat active.
It's a mixed bag. The first post with mostly numbers and formulas is usable. The general idea of how the passives work is usable. The different effects of the different passives being reliant on specific stats is completely outdated at this point.
is the information at the front of the thread still accurate? i noticed the origin date of the thread was a bit old but that the thread was still somewhat active.
Well, I'd say these are the most significant changes:
For LR, Avoidance is now a flat %, and does NOT suffer from DR. So, 90% avoidance means that you take 10% of damage from a dodged attack, before other stats. (However, 90% is a whole lot harder to get to now, than before). This is unique among all the defensive passives.
Power activation times no longer affect dodge chance. This was changed sometime in 2012 and has misled a lot of people.
Invulnerability has been buffed considerably, relative to defiance. However, superstat increases have buffed both powers on an absolute level.
Defiance no longer shares meaningful synergy w/ enrage.
Defensive passives no longer scale on particular superstats, EXCEPT for defiance. (mentioned above)
Well, I'd say these are the most significant changes:
For LR, Avoidance is now a flat %, and does NOT suffer from DR. So, 90% avoidance means that you take 10% of damage from a dodged attack, before other stats. (However, 90% is a whole lot harder to get to now, than before). This is unique among all the defensive passives.
It's actually a display issue and has always worked that way. Avoidance on the character sheet shows the real percentage avoidance -- however, something that says '+x% avoidance' actually adds to the divisor, so if you get +50% avoidance on top of base avoidance (20%) you actually wind up at 43%. The big thing is that LR no longer gives rating points in dodge chance (subject to DR), it gives a flat bonus to dodge chance (the avoidance bonus is a base of 50% plus something that is I think linear in superstats).
Comments
There are Powers that help you Build Dodge from Range actually, but they are quite a Few
with the Flowing Like the River ADV blocking for 2+ Seconds while let you keep the Dodge Bonus for 10 Seconds (decay by time)
Unfortenly this Block is HORRIBLE because it has Zero Resistance! It's all about Dodge and IF you
get dodge
Elle and Raijin use STR PSS with Juggernaut, all CON mods, a Fitness BP with 2 Luck mods and Energy Shield with Laser Knight (plus 3 stacks of Grit from Warden Mastery). So with Laser Knight automatically knocking off 25%, 120-130% damage resistance from Defense and 66% Dodge (84% if you use Thundering Kicks combo) the undodged hit every now and then can be easily absorbed without ever needing to block.
When HELD, this is actually safer than the low Defense 100% dodge builds without MD ready. And when you get multiple hits (or get knocked away with a Fire Ring in between), you can block since losing Laser Knight isn't as deadly as losing Parry for the 100% dodge build.
P.S. What Shuriken Storm really needs is a less stupid looking animation for female heroes LOL!
Note that I'm thinking of the below in terms of HPS (heal per second), not EHP (effective hit points). Reasoning is that for basically all in game content (aside from Frost), your survivability as a tank depends on mitigation AND healing, which EHP doesn't get you. (Conversely, for F&I, HPS doesn't matter because you either live with a healer, or die without one - seriously gimped builds nonwithstanding).
In the state of today's gearing, regen toons have on the order of 130% DR from defense (counting the 30 from regen). Defiance/invuln is closer to 200-250%. But, regen heals about 1500/3 seconds, or 500 HPS. Running the math (and ignoring invuln's dmg mitigation right now), def/invuln toons need 260-325 HPS to match the intrinsic HPS of regeneration. This is a maximum; because of how percentages work, this becomes smaller if you throw in things like block, LK, dodge, armadillos. That's ... lower than I expected.
What are some powers that can provide this? (Assuming 50% cooldown, which you can get by (opens solver) base INT and 345 cooldown reduction.), and also no bonus healing. Some of the most commonly used heals are:
Conviction - ~800/3 sec = 266 HPS (that about gets us there, already)
BCR - ~180/2 = 90 HPS + RR adv (insignificant vs. bosses). Two stacks can be kept up indefinitely, making this 180 HPS.
Endorphin Rush - ~200/2 = 100 HPS (hmmm). Does not scale off of defiance now though.
DE - ~140*1.5*2 = 420 HPS (R2 / Phlebotomist)
Nec. Elixir - 200-400+ HPS (depending on your build; I won't go into details here).
In other words, regen's HPS "threshold" is actually lower than I realized, even with the new "gear reality" that wasn't in place when this thread started.
PS This calculation can also be individualized; for the above, invuln gives me about 75%; defiance would give 18%*6, or 108%. This is a 34% difference. Taking for instance 200% vs 234%, this comes out to a 47 HPS difference, before invuln's dmg mitigation. Whether or not that is significant depends on your perspective.
Defiance per stack (%) = 0.0135/(0.0429 + CON^(-0.6))
Provisional fit, need more datapoints.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Yea, that's why I mentioned that having the values for defiance/invuln laid out in front of me could be helpful for build planning (the values in the 1st post in this thread are woefully out of date). Also to answer that oft-asked question: what is the size of the hit that makes defiance mitigate more than invuln?
Well, those values were calculated [by me] something on the order of five and a half years ago, so yes, I apologize profusely, they are way, way out of date.
Invulnerability got a big buff about a year into the games life.
LR got tweaked up, and then way down again at different points.
Defiance has remained the same scaling, but our Con values have risen so it's been buffed indirectly.
PFF has been slowly but steadily buffed up except for one small niggling bug returned to plague it.
Regen was slightly nerfed but in a way that made it feel stronger, which was very smart, and it still plays very well with a strong rank 3 Block, especially one with a linger effect advantage available such as Energy Shield, Force Shield, and my favorite, Ebon Void with Voracious Darkness adv.
Time and health no longer permit me the resources I once had for detailed numbers, but many have risen in my absence to continue the battle for the power of Math!
Hope that helps a little, maybe I can find time for a five year later anniversary update on this old thread.
First of all, historically speaking the way diminishing returns has worked is that you have a superstat target of 20 + 3.022*level*1.01^level (200 at level 40), and your normalized stat value is (stat) / (stat + target) -- a number from 0-1. I'm not sure how it changed with triple-stat for On Alert, it looks very close to using (sum of super-stats)/2 for DR, but it doesn't quite work. It may be adding a small number of stat points .
For testing, I had 0-6 R7 mods giving me stat points; for damage resist tests I used 1,500 point laser hits in the powerhouse; figure the third digit is uncertain. An R7 mode is ~62.09 stat points. I didn't do all the passives yet, but:
Invulnerability R3:
No Superstat: 2.3 damage stopped, 40% damage resist
Base Superstats (85/45/45): 82 damage stopped, 47.5% damage resist.
1 Mod: 98/50.4%
2 Mod: 112/53.1%
3 Mod: 123/55.9%
4 Mod: 132/58.7%
5 Mod: 140/61.5%
6 Mod: 146/64.6%
Damage stopped appears to be 230 * (1.2 * superstat total / (1.2 * superstat total + 400)), possibly with very small error -- it would be 1.0 at R2, 0.833 at R1. Damage resist appears to be ~0.000455 per point of superstat.
Regen R3:
No Superstat: 262 heal, 30% resist.
Base Superstats (85/45/45): 415 heal, 30% resist.
1 Mod: 450 heal, 30% resist.
2 Mod: 478 heal, 30% resist.
3 Mod: 502 heal, 30% resist.
4 Mod: 523 heal, 30% resist.
5 Mod: 540 heal, 30% resist.
6 Mod: 556 heal, 30% resist.
Heal appears to be 262 + ~507 * (superstat total) / (superstat total + 400), again with very small errors that makes me think I'm missing something. It may be that 'no superstats' is actually calculated as a superstat total of about 1% of the target. Interestingly enough, there is no rank scaling other than the base (no superstats) heal value, plus the 20/25/30% damage resist value.
PFF R3:
Health is 1295 + 8.1 * (superstat total). It's linear. Regen rate has diminishing returns:
No Superstat: 230 heal.
Base Superstats (85/45/45): 482 heal.
1 Mod: 538 heal.
2 Mod: 584 heal
3 Mod: 622 heal
4 Mod: 655 heal
5 Mod: 683 heal
6 Mod: 708 heal
Heal is about 230 + 688 * (superstat total) / (superstat total + 400); unlike regen, this does scale with rank.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Adding my own bit of info for this.
The shield regen rate is cut in half (for those who don't know) upon entering combat. A bug.
So that 708 shield regen becomes 354 upon entering combat.
The shield regen rate gets cut in half *again* upon hitting the damage threshold for the mechanic, which I believe is around 60-65% shields.
So from the threshold on, it is further reduced from 354 to 177. Per 3 seconds. Doubled when blocking.
Figure I would throw this in for those who look at these numbers and say "Hey, that's not bad."
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
every 3 sec.
Cryptic, you done f-ed up.
(btw, thanks for the updated math, pantagruel01 and jimhsua)
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Consider someone with my 6 mods worth of stats (which is actually fairly low, since I didn't take any talents), with 40% mitigation from gear and 8k base hit points.
With invuln, total mitigation is 104%, so you'll get one-shotted by a hit doing (8,000+146)x2.04 = 16,617 damage. Against a sustained 2,000 dps incoming, you'll take a net 834 dps (assuming 2k hits; 4k hits every 2s will 907, 1k every 0.5s will be 688).
With Regen, total mitigation is 70%, so you'll get one-shotted by a hit doing (8,000)x1.70 = 13,600 damage. Against a sustained 2,000 dps incoming, you'll take 1,176, but you'll max out your regen (multiplying it by 2.5) for 1390 every 3 seconds or 463 per second, and you'll take a net 713 dps.
With PFF, total mitigation is 40%, and you have a 5720 hp force field. At the start of the fight, you'll get one-shoitted by a hit doing (8,000 + 5720)x1.4 or 19,208 damage. Against a sustained 2,000 dps incoming, you'll take 1,429, less the 59 hps of your PFF (lol), so you need 1370 hps. Also, your spike protection rapidly vanishes -- the invuln and regen build will generally stay at constant max hp, while the PFF build will have the PFF drop to zero and stay there.
The easiest fix is probably to just have Protection Field repair PFF.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Problem is that Field Surge was made so good specifically for PFF, its very weak for most everyone else compared to the other ADs. I'd try to make less specific interactions like that, cause being shoe-horned into using other powers cause you picked a certain passive or w/e honestly kinda sucks in a game about flexible building options.
Fixing the PFF regen bug would help a good deal and really should just be the starting point. If its too much after that, for w/e reason, then they can start looking at interactions like FS's or the block multiplier. I do like that Regen and PFF have some opposing mechanics, despite both being a similar 'heal-based mitigation' concept- but I'd rather PFF be strong w/o having to block so often, and w/o relying on specific shielding powers as much as it does now.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
It's a mixed bag. The first post with mostly numbers and formulas is usable. The general idea of how the passives work is usable. The different effects of the different passives being reliant on specific stats is completely outdated at this point.
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Well, I'd say these are the most significant changes:
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained