test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Make threat wipes apply Overpower
chaosdrgnz43
Posts: 1,674 Arc User
Or and dmg boosting buff/debuff. So dps would actually consider putting threat wipes in their builds.
__________________________________________________________________
Alts:
Lord Sans (Full Healer FF)/Axel Leonard (Crowd Controller/Off-Tank)
- - - - - -
Feel free to visit my websites!^^:
DeviantART|FurAffinity|
0
Comments
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
╚╗╔╝
╔╝(¯v´¯)
╚══.¸Menagerie
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
1) There are other ways to ensure I don't get threat
2) Even if I do get threat, generally I can deal with it until a tank grabs it back
3) Even if I can't handle it, being defeated usually just means running back after a respawn
4) Lockout content is rare and there will usually be a healer that can rez me
So the only reason to have a Threat Wipe is for those specific circumstances where I'm in lockout content and there won't be someone who can rez me AND me specifically not dying matters to the success of the event. It's basically the same problem that Self Rezzes face, and the same reason I don't use them on anything but healers. Simply put, Threat Wipes and Self Res powers are both extremely niche and not worth sacrificing a Power Point for when that point could be used on a power with much broader application.
They shouldn't all do the same thing though, and probably none of them should increase your damage output because that would put it squarely in the position of best-in-slot. Instead give them some benefit that's more generally useful, and fits the framework they're from. Here's some ideas I thought up after thinking about them for 5 seconds:
But wait Spinny if they don't do anything new at Cosmics then dps won't take them! So? If all a DPS does is Cosmics then they don't need a Threat Wipe so there's really no reason to try to motivate them to take one for that. DPS who only do Cosmics can just wait a few seconds before they start to lay into the thing. My goal is to make Threat Wipes more useful in content in general so there's more of a reason to take them. Small team content and soloing are where Threat Wipes might actually matter, we just gotta make there be a reason to actually take them. If someone already gets good use out of them due to not being able to handle when they catch aggro in those types of content, then I'm sure they'll appreciate these bonuses even more.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My personal experience with threat wipes is that they are an amazing utility already. When you have newer or lesser experienced tank, or things just go south, having high DPS with the ability to threat drop provides more DPS for that player than most AOs would. Being able to DPS without fear of pulling threat regardless of how experienced the tank is is a good feeling in general.
╚╗╔╝
╔╝(¯v´¯)
╚══.¸Menagerie
> I concur, but a lot of people seem to prefer the 'biological threat wipe' - death.
Okay you gave me an idea..we most def need a “Play Dead” threat wipe! Complete with an animation and emote unlock. New SCR store power \p/
╚╗╔╝
╔╝(¯v´¯)
╚══.¸Menagerie
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
that SHOULD have been the bestial wipe...but for some dumb reason, they went with cower instead
That's what I do. I don't take threat wipes, and instead I get powers that apply utility and do something more useful, because threat wipes are useless in comparison to those other powers. Considering the OP's perception that not enough people are taking threat wipes, one can assume I'm not the only one who does this. However, this is not a solution to the proposed problem. The proposed problem is "not enough people are taking threat wipes" so the solution cannot be "don't take threat wipes".
You actually nailed the problem here. Threat Wipes are for newer or less experienced players who haven't mastered the skills it takes to make Threat Wipes no longer necessary. "Beginner skills" is a category I feel shouldn't exist, one because it's wasted potential, and two because once you're in a situation without those new/less experienced players, then a threat wipe is just -1 power points. They need something for people that don't need the threat wipe portion anymore. The bonus is that once you get players to take these powers for the extra utility you're still getting them to take a threat wipe, so whatever reason you had for wanting people to take a threat wipe ( as I'm assuming OP has ) is getting satisfied.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Well sure, if you completely misrepresent what I'm saying then it isn't. I never said you can magically turn other people experienced by being experienced yourself, and it's a mystery to me where you pulled that from. Sure wasn't my posts, but I have a theory about another possible origin
I'll restate what I already said. By being more experienced you can in fact make an inexperienced tank's lack of threat less of an issue because you know how to make it less of an issue by throttling your threat, or playing defensively and doing the mechanics correctly if you do get threat. That's part of the reason I don't take threat wipes, because even if the tank can't hold aggro reliably I can play in such a way that makes that less of an issue. As an example, if I get Grond's aggro, I know how to face him, I know how to place his gas patches, and I know to block and use healing items to help the healer keep me up long enough that the tank can get aggro back ( or sometimes even until the end of the fight ). If I didn't know that then I might need a threat wipe, but because I'm experienced in that way it means that I don't need a threat wipe even when playing with an inexperienced tank.
So, as you can see, you can't magically make the tank be experienced ( which is why nobody claimed that ), but your experience can substitute for the need of a threat wipe. In my opinion, experience should only ever increase the number of powers you have a use for, never decrease ( sort of an issue ADs have too, but it's not like they're seeing a shortage of use ).
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
You really don't see the obvious issue here? While you are drawing aggro, potentially getting people killed *before* you can correct his facing, making the healer work harder, and generally failing to fulfill the DPS role you were brought for because you are holding block and focused on self-healing...I just tap Mind Wipe once or twice and maintain optimal damage output.
I mean, even with this I do 20-25 minute clears of TA so I feel comfortable not taking the threat wipe. I can correct his facing fast enough, the healers aren't really working harder ( they're there to heal...why would they be upset that they have to heal? hell most healers are glad for the excitement, just healing tanks is fairly snooze-inducing most of the time ) and well the run is short enough so I'm sure my dps contribution is fine. Sure, the threat wipe might make the odd TA run I do a minute or two shorter, but then the entire rest of the time I'm playing the game it's just sitting there on my hotbar being useless. You don't see the obvious issue there? Sure, I could just retcon it in when I do TA, but why bother? And why should I have to do that to not have a useless slot?
Also, you seem to really want me to take that threat wipe... you know what's a good way to get me to take it? You guessed it. In case you guessed wrong, no it's not telling me how super necessary or useful it is when I know it's not. It's giving it something else that it can do that makes it not useless the vast majority of the time, like the rest of the powers on my hotbar.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
=Pieces of Stuff=Knock Dead=Cruel Yule=Cremator=Toys from the Attic=
=Gnosis Arcanum=Twenty Seven=Kama D=Critic=Creep Freeze=
=Mangled Man=G.I. John Doe=2D.=Lung the punch drunk monk=
=By the sword=Scild Truma=Shadow Puppet=Lu-7=Erysichthon=
=Nimravid=Buzzard Kill=Lorenzini=Schema=
>
> I'll restate what I already said. By being more experienced you can in fact make an inexperienced tank's lack of threat less of an issue because you know how to make it less of an issue by throttling your threat
This is what a threat wipe does, except it throttles it to 0 immediately and allows you to to sustain your DPS. The goal of DPS is to DPS after all.
╚╗╔╝
╔╝(¯v´¯)
╚══.¸Menagerie
And then the other 90% of the time it sits there mocking me with its complete uselessness, something none of my other powers do. Issue.
Yes, when you're being a turret. When you're not being a turret, you have other goals as well. Give me a reason to take a Threat Wipe when I'm soloing. Give me a reason to take a Threat Wipe when I'm in an alert and even if I use a threat wipe I'll have aggro 2 seconds later. If I don't have a reason to have a Threat Wipe in those situations, then I'm not going to have a Threat Wipe for the handful of times it might actually be useful while I'm being a turret.
Question, what negative outcomes do you think will come from giving Threat Wipes additional utility?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
> @spinnytop said:
> Question, what negative outcomes do you think will come from giving Threat Wipes additional utility?
You could definitely add utilities that would not have negative effects, it depends on what that utility is. I do think that threat wipes are excellent for wiping threat, which is the purpose of the power.
╚╗╔╝
╔╝(¯v´¯)
╚══.¸Menagerie
PS. I'm all for the play dead power xD
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Grant Active Offenses a 2pt Advantage of a Threat Wipe that shares cooldowns with other threat wipe abilities AND other Active offenses.
- Beef the damage dealers
- Wipe the threat at the same time.
- Undergeared tanks have assistance keeping aggro
- Everyone Smiles.
No one said you shouldn't feel comfortable not taking one. The claim that you can choose to run a build which doesn't actually need a TW is obviously true and uncontroversial; the idea that players choosing to run them signals a lack of experience is a fundamentally different claim.
Arbitrarily deciding that drawing threat and even dying as a DPS has negligible negative cost isn't a convincing argument. Obviously, you can choose to prioritize whatever you want in game. As a DPS, I can choose to base my power selections exclusively on aesthetics and be content that my team mates will enjoy all the pretty effects, after all, these guys have cleared TA hundreds of times and who cares if it takes a little longer? And only inexperienced people would bother to buy a bunch of skills which help them survive when they get threat because dying doesn't matter anyway and a lot of those powers don't look cool at all.
The obvious problem with this form of argument is that I don't get to assert what experienced players either *do* or *should* value in game. Some people value maximizing their DPS w/o drawing threat and run builds specialized to this end. If you aren't interested in this playstyle, then threat wipes offer very low utility. But this is analogous to saying melee powers are pointless for someone who only wants to attack from range; I mean, it has the virtue of being true, but not exactly what I would call a profound insight, and it certainly doesn't support the claim that players who choose to melee are inexperienced.
Nope, just don't want other players who might read this to discount the fact that TW's are crucial if you're pumping the deeps.
Players who need them will take them. I don't think that was ever in question. Was that your issue this whole time? .-.
Yes, saying melee powers are useless to someone who only wants to attack from ranged is totally the same as pointing out that threat wipes stop being useful when you're soloing or in a group where they won't be able to keep aggro off of you for more than a few seconds. Wait, no it's not, it's not even remotely similar, one is a preference and the other is a result of encounter and queue design.
Not sure what's arbitrary about making observations about what the game is. If it's not a convincing argument for you, neat, but that's still the way the game is. Also all my powers look cool, and they help me survive. Not sure what powers you thought I was talking about, but I sure like me some pretty effects.
This has nothing to do with me being comfortable not taking one. There's about a hundred or so powers I don't take on every single character, you bet your **** I need to be comfortable with not taking powers cause otherwise how would the game even work. Also, the idea that players choosing to run them signals a lack of experience is an idea I didn't present, so I don't know why we're talking about it.
Now I'll ask you the same thing, what negative outcomes do you think will come from giving Threat Wipes additional utility?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I'm not like you Panta, I wouldn't use the slot to "squeeze out another 1% dps" remember? Making Cosmic DPS Turrets is your thing. I would use it to take a useful power that I would be using frequently in a variety of content. The OP wants more players to use threat wipes. You want me to take threat wipes? Make them be useful more than 5% of the time. You don't care if I take a threat wipe? Why are you arguing about this in this thread then? Did you convince yourself that I was saying that Threat Wipes aren't useful at all? How?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
╚╗╔╝
╔╝(¯v´¯)
╚══.¸Menagerie
That...is some low effort goal post movement. The point of the analogy was that anyone can choose to determine the value of a power using an arbitrary set of standards which reflect their playstyle preferences. You can choose to place an extremely low value on not drawing threat in group/raid play and I can choose to place a really low value on soloing QWZ. There is no method to resolve contradictory valuations because the underlying basis is a preference, not a question of fact.
First the goalposts, now the full-tilt backpedal:
I'm indifferent.
I can tell how indifferent you are about it from how hard you're arguing against it. Now that I know you're indifferent though, I know you actually have no issue with my suggestion, so I guess that's settled.
Yes, and they should all be like that is what I'm saying. Why only Palliate? Is there a good reason for Palliate being the only one that provides extra utility beyond the threat wipe?
That's an odd way to think about it. It being the last power I pick doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be used any less often, it means that it's a power I'm unsure about and want to be able to change easily in case I change my mind. All the powers I pick on my builds are powers I'm going to use often. If I rarely use a power, then it's very likely I'm going to swap it out for something else and it won't be in my powers list at all.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Changing it to lowest priority doesn't change anything; even the most lowest priority power shouldn't be useless 95% of the time. I somehow manage, on every single toon, to pick a power that I'll be using a lot for every slot. OP wants one of them to be a threat wipe more often, so that's the problem I'm trying to find solutions for.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
That said, I use one on Aes because she's a tank/dps dual passive character which can do both roles fairly well. In damage-dealer mode, she's using defender gloves, challenge, and the extra threat thingy on the ultimate. I don't want to be the next meal of choice if a tank goes down, so a threat wipe counters all the challenge nonsense perfectly since (for whatever annoying reason) our devs don't want to make challenge part of the tank role, or at least shut off in damage-dealer role.
Blinding Light would be a bit OP (Smoke Grenade also, but to a lesser degree) unless it gets restricted to only reduce damage dealt by lower-rank targets.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Blinding Light - No extra utility
Evasive Maneuvers - Reverse Lunge with adv to have 50% chance to wipe threat. Also has a self heal adv.
Smoke Grenade - Perception debuff with adv to wipe threat.
Parting Shot - Reverse Lunge with adv to wipe threat. Also has adv to apply Armor Piercing.
Smoke Bomb - has advantage to knock back targets within 15ft.
Mind Wipe - has adv to help allies within 15ft break free from holds.
Palliate - Single target heal with adv to wipe threat.
Magician’s Dust - Wipes threat and also placates targets. The placate is innate and makes certain enemies unable to attack you.
Cower - Applies fear to user and attempts to placate targets. Has advantage to grant user 60% run speed, +6 flight and +6 jump for 6 seconds.
Entrancing - no special adv
Imbue - has advantage to make user generate -100% threat for 10 seconds. (This isn’t a threat wipe, just a reduction in threat generation)
Something i never paid attention to until now is that some threat wipes have a placate which could be useful for solo play.
╚╗╔╝
╔╝(¯v´¯)
╚══.¸Menagerie
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
╚╗╔╝
╔╝(¯v´¯)
╚══.¸Menagerie
Change that to useful and OP's problem is solved o/
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
> theglasskitten wrote: »
>
> I am looking over our current threat wipes and it appears most do have a utility already, they just are not very useful in most cases.
>
>
>
>
> Change that to useful and OP's problem is solved o/
I am convinced only people who want a threat wipe would take them even with stronger utilities. People who do not want a threat wipe still would likely not take it.
I am def not against adding more utility to powers, it could be a really good thing. I don’t think it would change people’s stance on threat wipes.
> @gentlegiantvexx said:
> Suggestion:
>
> Grant Active Offenses a 2pt Advantage of a Threat Wipe that shares cooldowns with other threat wipe abilities AND other Active offenses.
>
> - Beef the damage dealers
> - Wipe the threat at the same time.
> - Undergeared tanks have assistance keeping aggro
> - Everyone Smiles.
This is probably the most likely solution to encourage people to take threat wipes; making them easily attachable to powers they are likely to have.
╚╗╔╝
╔╝(¯v´¯)
╚══.¸Menagerie
Vexx's idea is just the reverse of mine. Attacking threat wipes to powers that provide useful utility is functionally the same as adding useful utility to threat wipes. I think AOs might not be a likely candidate though since DPS are already going gaga over those all the time. Adding more to something that's already popular and all that.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.