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Make threat wipes apply Overpower

chaosdrgnz43chaosdrgnz43 Posts: 1,666 Arc User
Or and dmg boosting buff/debuff. So dps would actually consider putting threat wipes in their builds.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,424 Arc User
    are people losing aggro? I thought Confront mods solved that.​​
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,981 Arc User
    Having threat wipes apply overpower seems nonsensical, but making it so stealth effects apply a damage bonus (and removing shadow strike) has a plausibility argument.
  • theglasskittentheglasskitten Posts: 175 Arc User
    I don’t see a need to change threat wipes (Cower not included). They do exactly what they’re intended to do.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,981 Arc User
    In any case, people willingly cripple their dps with far worse offenses than not using threat wipes (such as DPSing in tank role), so I doubt a bribe would change their behavior.
  • nbkxsnbkxs Posts: 701 Arc User
    It's a massive problem recently, the tanks are just losing threat all over, every battle is just a spinning musical-killers. That cycles around 20 times, before finally coming back to the tank. Then, 2-3 minutes later, it happens again.
    [NbK]XStorm
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,981 Arc User
    nbkxs wrote: »
    It's a massive problem recently, the tanks are just losing threat all over, every battle is just a spinning musical-killers. That cycles around 20 times, before finally coming back to the tank. Then, 2-3 minutes later, it happens again.
    I haven't noticed it being especially bad, either tanking or dps. I think we just have an influx of inexperienced tanks at the moment, possibly because cosmic week.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,424 Arc User
    It would be nice if Threat Wipes did something other than wipe threat though. As is, I never use them because:

    1) There are other ways to ensure I don't get threat
    2) Even if I do get threat, generally I can deal with it until a tank grabs it back
    3) Even if I can't handle it, being defeated usually just means running back after a respawn
    4) Lockout content is rare and there will usually be a healer that can rez me

    So the only reason to have a Threat Wipe is for those specific circumstances where I'm in lockout content and there won't be someone who can rez me AND me specifically not dying matters to the success of the event. It's basically the same problem that Self Rezzes face, and the same reason I don't use them on anything but healers. Simply put, Threat Wipes and Self Res powers are both extremely niche and not worth sacrificing a Power Point for when that point could be used on a power with much broader application.

    They shouldn't all do the same thing though, and probably none of them should increase your damage output because that would put it squarely in the position of best-in-slot. Instead give them some benefit that's more generally useful, and fits the framework they're from. Here's some ideas I thought up after thinking about them for 5 seconds:
    1. Cower - Now also gives you 100% extra damage resistance for 6 seconds.
    2. Mind Wipe - Target is Stunned for 6 seconds - this can effect some targets normally immune to stuns.
    3. Entrancing - Target is Confused for 30 seconds.
    4. Smoke Grenade - Targets deal 50% less damage for 6 seconds.
    5. Blinding Light - Target deals 100% less damage for 6 seconds.
    6. Magician's Dust - All targets are Confused for 16 seconds.
    • Numbers would be whatever they ended up being, I used big numbers to demonstrate that these should be big effects since Threat Wipes have fairly lengthy cooldowns. These are almost meant to be like mini-ADs.
    • So for example the one that Stuns gets a longer than normal duration and can effect some normally immune targets.
    • The ones that lower damage or raise resistance get super big amounts.
    • The AOE Threat Wipes in particular are interesting because they tend to wipe entire groups, which pulls you all out of combat and causes them to heal to full so these would be meant to be used when you're about to be killed. You reset the fight and can then immediately hop back in with a big bonus to hopefully get a better result this time.
    • None of these would work on Cosmics, naturally.

    But wait Spinny if they don't do anything new at Cosmics then dps won't take them! So? If all a DPS does is Cosmics then they don't need a Threat Wipe so there's really no reason to try to motivate them to take one for that. DPS who only do Cosmics can just wait a few seconds before they start to lay into the thing. My goal is to make Threat Wipes more useful in content in general so there's more of a reason to take them. Small team content and soloing are where Threat Wipes might actually matter, we just gotta make there be a reason to actually take them. If someone already gets good use out of them due to not being able to handle when they catch aggro in those types of content, then I'm sure they'll appreciate these bonuses even more.​​
  • theglasskittentheglasskitten Posts: 175 Arc User
    Reading over that I get the impression that you are saying threat wipes are generally useless, so they need additional utility to make them useful. If that is what you are saying, then why wouldn’t people just get powers that apply utility and do something more useful?

    My personal experience with threat wipes is that they are an amazing utility already. When you have newer or lesser experienced tank, or things just go south, having high DPS with the ability to threat drop provides more DPS for that player than most AOs would. Being able to DPS without fear of pulling threat regardless of how experienced the tank is is a good feeling in general.
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  • nbkxsnbkxs Posts: 701 Arc User
    I concur, but a lot of people seem to prefer the 'biological threat wipe' - death.
    [NbK]XStorm
  • theglasskittentheglasskitten Posts: 175 Arc User
    > @nbkxs said:
    > I concur, but a lot of people seem to prefer the 'biological threat wipe' - death.

    Okay you gave me an idea..we most def need a “Play Dead” threat wipe! Complete with an animation and emote unlock. New SCR store power \p/
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  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 4,324 Arc User
    When I dps I handle all this by aiming to be just a bit worse than the top 2 dpsers. Let them worry about wiping aggro. If it gets to me, everything has likely gone south already.
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  • In my experience, when dps pulls aggro at a cosmic, it's usually because they didn't give the tank time to build aggro or the tank died. In both scenarios, a threat wipe doesn't solve the problem; it simply passes it on to someone else.
  • nbkxsnbkxs Posts: 701 Arc User
    Or, they're 10k dpsers, and w/o a wipe, it's literally impossible to hold threat as a tank against them.
    [NbK]XStorm
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,981 Arc User
    nbkxs wrote: »
    Or, they're 10k dpsers, and w/o a wipe, it's literally impossible to hold threat as a tank against them.
    I don't know of anyone with that kind of build who doesn't understand the concept of threat wipes.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Posts: 1,564 Arc User
    > @nbkxs said:
    > I concur, but a lot of people seem to prefer the 'biological threat wipe' - death.

    Okay you gave me an idea..we most def need a “Play Dead” threat wipe! Complete with an animation and emote unlock. New SCR store power \p/

    that SHOULD have been the bestial wipe...but for some dumb reason, they went with cower instead​​
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,424 Arc User
    Reading over that I get the impression that you are saying threat wipes are generally useless, so they need additional utility to make them useful. If that is what you are saying, then why wouldn’t people just get powers that apply utility and do something more useful?

    That's what I do. I don't take threat wipes, and instead I get powers that apply utility and do something more useful, because threat wipes are useless in comparison to those other powers. Considering the OP's perception that not enough people are taking threat wipes, one can assume I'm not the only one who does this. However, this is not a solution to the proposed problem. The proposed problem is "not enough people are taking threat wipes" so the solution cannot be "don't take threat wipes".
    My personal experience with threat wipes is that they are an amazing utility already. When you have newer or lesser experienced tank, or things just go south, having high DPS with the ability to threat drop provides more DPS for that player than most AOs would. Being able to DPS without fear of pulling threat regardless of how experienced the tank is is a good feeling in general.

    You actually nailed the problem here. Threat Wipes are for newer or less experienced players who haven't mastered the skills it takes to make Threat Wipes no longer necessary. "Beginner skills" is a category I feel shouldn't exist, one because it's wasted potential, and two because once you're in a situation without those new/less experienced players, then a threat wipe is just -1 power points. They need something for people that don't need the threat wipe portion anymore. The bonus is that once you get players to take these powers for the extra utility you're still getting them to take a threat wipe, so whatever reason you had for wanting people to take a threat wipe ( as I'm assuming OP has ) is getting satisfied.​​
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,981 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    You actually nailed the problem here. Threat Wipes are for newer or less experienced players who haven't mastered the skills it takes to make Threat Wipes no longer necessary.
    Way to misquote someone. 'Make sure your tank has sufficient skill and gear to exceed your threat' is not something you achieve by being a more experienced player.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,424 Arc User
    edited June 2019
    spinnytop wrote: »
    You actually nailed the problem here. Threat Wipes are for newer or less experienced players who haven't mastered the skills it takes to make Threat Wipes no longer necessary.
    Way to misquote someone. 'Make sure your tank has sufficient skill and gear to exceed your threat' is not something you achieve by being a more experienced player.

    Well sure, if you completely misrepresent what I'm saying then it isn't. I never said you can magically turn other people experienced by being experienced yourself, and it's a mystery to me where you pulled that from. Sure wasn't my posts, but I have a theory about another possible origin ;)

    I'll restate what I already said. By being more experienced you can in fact make an inexperienced tank's lack of threat less of an issue because you know how to make it less of an issue by throttling your threat, or playing defensively and doing the mechanics correctly if you do get threat. That's part of the reason I don't take threat wipes, because even if the tank can't hold aggro reliably I can play in such a way that makes that less of an issue. As an example, if I get Grond's aggro, I know how to face him, I know how to place his gas patches, and I know to block and use healing items to help the healer keep me up long enough that the tank can get aggro back ( or sometimes even until the end of the fight ). If I didn't know that then I might need a threat wipe, but because I'm experienced in that way it means that I don't need a threat wipe even when playing with an inexperienced tank.

    So, as you can see, you can't magically make the tank be experienced ( which is why nobody claimed that ), but your experience can substitute for the need of a threat wipe. In my opinion, experience should only ever increase the number of powers you have a use for, never decrease ( sort of an issue ADs have too, but it's not like they're seeing a shortage of use ).​​
  • zaosha#7725 zaosha Posts: 5 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    I know how to face him, I know how to place his gas patches, and I know to block and use healing items to help the healer keep me up long enough that the tank can get aggro back ( or sometimes even until the end of the fight ).

    So, as you can see, you can't magically make the tank be experienced ( which is why nobody claimed that ), but your experience can substitute for the need of a threat wipe.

    You really don't see the obvious issue here? While you are drawing aggro, potentially getting people killed *before* you can correct his facing, making the healer work harder, and generally failing to fulfill the DPS role you were brought for because you are holding block and focused on self-healing...I just tap Mind Wipe once or twice and maintain optimal damage output.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,424 Arc User
    edited June 2019
    You really don't see the obvious issue here? While you are drawing aggro, potentially getting people killed *before* you can correct his facing, making the healer work harder, and generally failing to fulfill the DPS role you were brought for because you are holding block and focused on self-healing...I just tap Mind Wipe once or twice and maintain optimal damage output.

    I mean, even with this I do 20-25 minute clears of TA so I feel comfortable not taking the threat wipe. I can correct his facing fast enough, the healers aren't really working harder ( they're there to heal...why would they be upset that they have to heal? hell most healers are glad for the excitement, just healing tanks is fairly snooze-inducing most of the time ) and well the run is short enough so I'm sure my dps contribution is fine. Sure, the threat wipe might make the odd TA run I do a minute or two shorter, but then the entire rest of the time I'm playing the game it's just sitting there on my hotbar being useless. You don't see the obvious issue there? Sure, I could just retcon it in when I do TA, but why bother? And why should I have to do that to not have a useless slot?

    Also, you seem to really want me to take that threat wipe... you know what's a good way to get me to take it? You guessed it.​ In case you guessed wrong, no it's not telling me how super necessary or useful it is when I know it's not. It's giving it something else that it can do that makes it not useless the vast majority of the time, like the rest of the powers on my hotbar.​​
  • scildtrumascildtruma Posts: 75 Arc User
    God forbid a DPS block. Play by the numbers and be a drone. Comics would be very boring if they were written the way this game is played by some of players.
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  • theglasskittentheglasskitten Posts: 175 Arc User
    > spinnytop wrote: »
    >
    > I'll restate what I already said. By being more experienced you can in fact make an inexperienced tank's lack of threat less of an issue because you know how to make it less of an issue by throttling your threat

    This is what a threat wipe does, except it throttles it to 0 immediately and allows you to to sustain your DPS. The goal of DPS is to DPS after all.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,424 Arc User
    edited June 2019
    This is what a threat wipe does, except it throttles it to 0 immediately and allows you to to sustain your DPS.

    And then the other 90% of the time it sits there mocking me with its complete uselessness, something none of my other powers do. Issue.
    The goal of DPS is to DPS after all.

    Yes, when you're being a turret. When you're not being a turret, you have other goals as well. Give me a reason to take a Threat Wipe when I'm soloing. Give me a reason to take a Threat Wipe when I'm in an alert and even if I use a threat wipe I'll have aggro 2 seconds later. If I don't have a reason to have a Threat Wipe in those situations, then I'm not going to have a Threat Wipe for the handful of times it might actually be useful while I'm being a turret.

    Question, what negative outcomes do you think will come from giving Threat Wipes additional utility?​​
  • theglasskittentheglasskitten Posts: 175 Arc User
    edited June 2019
    It is definitely tailored for the trinity play style and doesn’t have much use outside of that.

    > @spinnytop said:
    > Question, what negative outcomes do you think will come from giving Threat Wipes additional utility?​​

    You could definitely add utilities that would not have negative effects, it depends on what that utility is. I do think that threat wipes are excellent for wiping threat, which is the purpose of the power.
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  • poptartmaniac#8493 poptartmaniac Posts: 241 Arc User
    edited June 2019
    I personally agree that threat wipes are very useful, but I think the issue is, some players who are just focused on being good at endgame don't mind sacrificing it, but people with theme builds who like to build their own hero, will have trouble, being forced to sacrifice something fun for a threat wipe because so many things are locked behind gcr/scr so they have to do that kind of content, also with this I should say, not everyone with a theme build is bad, I've seen theme builds put out a ton of damage and dps. I guess what I'm trying to argue is not everyone is comfortable with the meta they prefer builds that are fun overall and some do happen to have enough dps to steal aggro. In my experience when I use a threat wipe I get aggro right back anyway, it is kind of useful in TA if a tank is learning though, I'm open to someone changing my mind but I feel you should be allowed to get 1 TW without using up a power point like EB, but your suggestions are good as well, giving them more use, not just bad cosmic tank aggro.

    PS. I'm all for the play dead power xD
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,981 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    And then the other 90% of the time it sits there mocking me with its complete uselessness, something none of my other powers do.
    So what? It's one power slot and zero advantage points. Yes, you can probably squeeze another 1% dps out by using the power slot for something else, but you'll lose far more than that from having to deal with aggro.
  • gentlegiantvexxgentlegiantvexx Posts: 296 Community Moderator
    Suggestion:

    Grant Active Offenses a 2pt Advantage of a Threat Wipe that shares cooldowns with other threat wipe abilities AND other Active offenses.

    - Beef the damage dealers
    - Wipe the threat at the same time.
    - Undergeared tanks have assistance keeping aggro
    - Everyone Smiles.
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 4,324 Arc User
    Also add a 2 point advantage to AOs that boosts aggro significantly? Then tanks can have a power that helps that them fulfill their roles, and same for the dps types. Everyone wins?
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  • zaosha#7725 zaosha Posts: 5 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    so I feel comfortable not taking the threat wipe.

    No one said you shouldn't feel comfortable not taking one. The claim that you can choose to run a build which doesn't actually need a TW is obviously true and uncontroversial; the idea that players choosing to run them signals a lack of experience is a fundamentally different claim.

    Arbitrarily deciding that drawing threat and even dying as a DPS has negligible negative cost isn't a convincing argument. Obviously, you can choose to prioritize whatever you want in game. As a DPS, I can choose to base my power selections exclusively on aesthetics and be content that my team mates will enjoy all the pretty effects, after all, these guys have cleared TA hundreds of times and who cares if it takes a little longer? And only inexperienced people would bother to buy a bunch of skills which help them survive when they get threat because dying doesn't matter anyway and a lot of those powers don't look cool at all.

    The obvious problem with this form of argument is that I don't get to assert what experienced players either *do* or *should* value in game. Some people value maximizing their DPS w/o drawing threat and run builds specialized to this end. If you aren't interested in this playstyle, then threat wipes offer very low utility. But this is analogous to saying melee powers are pointless for someone who only wants to attack from range; I mean, it has the virtue of being true, but not exactly what I would call a profound insight, and it certainly doesn't support the claim that players who choose to melee are inexperienced.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Also, you seem to really want me to take that threat wipe... you know what's a good way to get me to take it? ​​

    Nope, just don't want other players who might read this to discount the fact that TW's are crucial if you're pumping the deeps.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,424 Arc User
    edited June 2019
    Nope, just don't want other players who might read this to discount the fact that TW's are crucial if you're pumping the deeps.

    Players who need them will take them. I don't think that was ever in question. Was that your issue this whole time? .-.
    The obvious problem with this form of argument is that I don't get to assert what experienced players either *do* or *should* value in game. Some people value maximizing their DPS w/o drawing threat and run builds specialized to this end. If you aren't interested in this playstyle, then threat wipes offer very low utility. But this is analogous to saying melee powers are pointless for someone who only wants to attack from range; I mean, it has the virtue of being true, but not exactly what I would call a profound insight, and it certainly doesn't support the claim that players who choose to melee are inexperienced.

    Yes, saying melee powers are useless to someone who only wants to attack from ranged is totally the same as pointing out that threat wipes stop being useful when you're soloing or in a group where they won't be able to keep aggro off of you for more than a few seconds. Wait, no it's not, it's not even remotely similar, one is a preference and the other is a result of encounter and queue design.

    Arbitrarily deciding that drawing threat and even dying as a DPS has negligible negative cost isn't a convincing argument. Obviously, you can choose to prioritize whatever you want in game. As a DPS, I can choose to base my power selections exclusively on aesthetics and be content that my team mates will enjoy all the pretty effects, after all, these guys have cleared TA hundreds of times and who cares if it takes a little longer? And only inexperienced people would bother to buy a bunch of skills which help them survive when they get threat because dying doesn't matter anyway and a lot of those powers don't look cool at all.

    Not sure what's arbitrary about making observations about what the game is. If it's not a convincing argument for you, neat, but that's still the way the game is. Also all my powers look cool, and they help me survive. Not sure what powers you thought I was talking about, but I sure like me some pretty effects.
    No one said you shouldn't feel comfortable not taking one. The claim that you can choose to run a build which doesn't actually need a TW is obviously true and uncontroversial; the idea that players choosing to run them signals a lack of experience is a fundamentally different claim.

    This has nothing to do with me being comfortable not taking one. There's about a hundred or so powers I don't take on every single character, you bet your **** I need to be comfortable with not taking powers cause otherwise how would the game even work. Also, the idea that players choosing to run them signals a lack of experience is an idea I didn't present, so I don't know why we're talking about it.

    Now I'll ask you the same thing, what negative outcomes do you think will come from giving Threat Wipes additional utility?​​
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,424 Arc User
    edited June 2019
    So what? It's one power slot and zero advantage points. Yes, you can probably squeeze another 1% dps out by using the power slot for something else, but you'll lose far more than that from having to deal with aggro.

    I'm not like you Panta, I wouldn't use the slot to "squeeze out another 1% dps" remember? Making Cosmic DPS Turrets is your thing. I would use it to take a useful power that I would be using frequently in a variety of content. The OP wants more players to use threat wipes. You want me to take threat wipes? Make them be useful more than 5% of the time. You don't care if I take a threat wipe? Why are you arguing about this in this thread then? Did you convince yourself that I was saying that Threat Wipes aren't useful at all? How?​​
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,981 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    I would use it to take a useful power that I would be using frequently in a variety of content.
    It's probably one of the last powers you pick. Anything you're going to use super often should already be in your build.
  • theglasskittentheglasskitten Posts: 175 Arc User
    There are threat wipes with other utilities present in the game already, or rather there are utilities with threat wipe advantages. Palliate is a very powerful heal that can double as a threat wipe.
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  • zaosha#7725 zaosha Posts: 5 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Yes, saying melee powers are useless to someone who only wants to attack from ranged is totally the same as pointing out that threat wipes stop being useful when you're soloing or in a group where they won't be able to keep aggro off of you for more than a few seconds. Wait, no it's not, it's not even remotely similar, one is a preference and the other is a result of encounter and queue design.

    That...is some low effort goal post movement. The point of the analogy was that anyone can choose to determine the value of a power using an arbitrary set of standards which reflect their playstyle preferences. You can choose to place an extremely low value on not drawing threat in group/raid play and I can choose to place a really low value on soloing QWZ. There is no method to resolve contradictory valuations because the underlying basis is a preference, not a question of fact.

    First the goalposts, now the full-tilt backpedal:
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Also, the idea that players choosing to run them signals a lack of experience is an idea I didn't present, so I don't know why we're talking about it.


    "Threat Wipes are for newer or less experienced players who haven't mastered the skills it takes to make Threat Wipes no longer necessary."

    spinnytop wrote: »
    Now I'll ask you the same thing, what negative outcomes do you think will come from giving Threat Wipes additional utility?​​

    I'm indifferent.

  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,424 Arc User
    edited June 2019
    I'm indifferent.

    I can tell how indifferent you are about it from how hard you're arguing against it. Now that I know you're indifferent though, I know you actually have no issue with my suggestion, so I guess that's settled.
    There are threat wipes with other utilities present in the game already, or rather there are utilities with threat wipe advantages. Palliate is a very powerful heal that can double as a threat wipe.

    Yes, and they should all be like that is what I'm saying. Why only Palliate? Is there a good reason for Palliate being the only one that provides extra utility beyond the threat wipe?
    It's probably one of the last powers you pick. Anything you're going to use super often should already be in your build.

    That's an odd way to think about it. It being the last power I pick doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be used any less often, it means that it's a power I'm unsure about and want to be able to change easily in case I change my mind. All the powers I pick on my builds are powers I'm going to use often. If I rarely use a power, then it's very likely I'm going to swap it out for something else and it won't be in my powers list at all.​​
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,981 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Yes, and they should all be like that is what I'm saying. Why only Palliate? Is there a good reason for Palliate being the only one that provides extra utility beyond the threat wipe?
    It isn't (smoke grenade and evasive maneuvers also have utility). The thing is, the extra utility comes at a cost in advantage points.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    It's probably one of the last powers you pick. Anything you're going to use super often should already be in your build.

    That's an odd way to think about it. It being the last power I pick doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be used any less often, it means that it's a power I'm unsure about and want to be able to change easily in case I change my mind.​​
    I meant lowest priority, not actual order of picking (which may be determined by retcon availability, yes).
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,424 Arc User
    Okay, so we're up to 2 Threat Wipes with some extra utility ( not smoke grenade since -perception doesn't actually do anything useful ). Only a few more to go until I can stop asking why don't they all. Heck, pointing out there are some Threat Wipes that already do this only makes this a better question.

    Changing it to lowest priority doesn't change anything; even the most lowest priority power shouldn't be useless 95% of the time. I somehow manage, on every single toon, to pick a power that I'll be using a lot for every slot. OP wants one of them to be a threat wipe more often, so that's the problem I'm trying to find solutions for.​​
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,497 Arc User
    Overall, I look at threat wipes like I do Brute Strike clones--they're useful to a few people, and those who want them will take them. Those who don't want or need them won't bother. Seems working as intended to me.

    That said, I use one on Aes because she's a tank/dps dual passive character which can do both roles fairly well. In damage-dealer mode, she's using defender gloves, challenge, and the extra threat thingy on the ultimate. I don't want to be the next meal of choice if a tank goes down, so a threat wipe counters all the challenge nonsense perfectly since (for whatever annoying reason) our devs don't want to make challenge part of the tank role, or at least shut off in damage-dealer role. :)
    spinnytop wrote: »
    They shouldn't all do the same thing though, and probably none of them should increase your damage output because that would put it squarely in the position of best-in-slot. Instead give them some benefit that's more generally useful, and fits the framework they're from. Here's some ideas I thought up after thinking about them for 5 seconds:
    1. Cower - Now also gives you 100% extra damage resistance for 6 seconds.
    2. Mind Wipe - Target is Stunned for 6 seconds - this can effect some targets normally immune to stuns.
    3. Entrancing - Target is Confused for 30 seconds.
    4. Smoke Grenade - Targets deal 50% less damage for 6 seconds.
    5. Blinding Light - Target deals 100% less damage for 6 seconds.
    6. Magician's Dust - All targets are Confused for 16 seconds.
    Blinding Light would be a bit OP (Smoke Grenade also, but to a lesser degree) unless it gets restricted to only reduce damage dealt by lower-rank targets.
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,981 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Okay, so we're up to 2 Threat Wipes with some extra utility ( not smoke grenade since -perception doesn't actually do anything useful ).
    It does on non-Tough mobs, but the problem is you need more than rank 1 for it to have any effect.
  • theglasskittentheglasskitten Posts: 175 Arc User
    I am looking over our current threat wipes and it appears most do have a utility already, they just are not very useful in most cases.

    Blinding Light - No extra utility

    Evasive Maneuvers - Reverse Lunge with adv to have 50% chance to wipe threat. Also has a self heal adv.

    Smoke Grenade - Perception debuff with adv to wipe threat.

    Parting Shot - Reverse Lunge with adv to wipe threat. Also has adv to apply Armor Piercing.

    Smoke Bomb - has advantage to knock back targets within 15ft.

    Mind Wipe - has adv to help allies within 15ft break free from holds.

    Palliate - Single target heal with adv to wipe threat.

    Magician’s Dust - Wipes threat and also placates targets. The placate is innate and makes certain enemies unable to attack you.

    Cower - Applies fear to user and attempts to placate targets. Has advantage to grant user 60% run speed, +6 flight and +6 jump for 6 seconds.

    Entrancing - no special adv

    Imbue - has advantage to make user generate -100% threat for 10 seconds. (This isn’t a threat wipe, just a reduction in threat generation)


    Something i never paid attention to until now is that some threat wipes have a placate which could be useful for solo play.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,981 Arc User
    Most of the threat wipes also have 3-5 seconds of stealth, which can be used for powers. The problem with threat wipes in solo play is that a critter with no enemies resets its health instantly.
  • theglasskittentheglasskitten Posts: 175 Arc User
    Ah right they would reset hp. Could be useful for pet builds i suppose but in either case that would make the placate effect unhelpful
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,424 Arc User
    I am looking over our current threat wipes and it appears most do have a utility already, they just are not very useful in most cases.

    Change that to useful and OP's problem is solved o/​​
  • theglasskittentheglasskitten Posts: 175 Arc User
    > @spinnytop said:
    > theglasskitten wrote: »
    >
    > I am looking over our current threat wipes and it appears most do have a utility already, they just are not very useful in most cases.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Change that to useful and OP's problem is solved o/​​

    I am convinced only people who want a threat wipe would take them even with stronger utilities. People who do not want a threat wipe still would likely not take it.

    I am def not against adding more utility to powers, it could be a really good thing. I don’t think it would change people’s stance on threat wipes.

    > @gentlegiantvexx said:
    > Suggestion:
    >
    > Grant Active Offenses a 2pt Advantage of a Threat Wipe that shares cooldowns with other threat wipe abilities AND other Active offenses.
    >
    > - Beef the damage dealers
    > - Wipe the threat at the same time.
    > - Undergeared tanks have assistance keeping aggro
    > - Everyone Smiles.

    This is probably the most likely solution to encourage people to take threat wipes; making them easily attachable to powers they are likely to have.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,424 Arc User
    I mean, if the extra utility the threat wipe provides is something I want then I'm not going to avoid taking it just to avoid taking a threat wipe.

    Vexx's idea is just the reverse of mine. Attacking threat wipes to powers that provide useful utility is functionally the same as adding useful utility to threat wipes. I think AOs might not be a likely candidate though since DPS are already going gaga over those all the time. Adding more to something that's already popular and all that.​​
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