Endgame

xcelsior41 · July 2018

How do you feel about the current endgame in CO? As always, feel free to elaborate! I will intentionally leave the polls slightly vague to allow for others' opinions and ideas

spinnytop · July 2018

I think it's fine as it is in all areas, and still remains casual friendly

To clarify: It's fine as it is, but definitely needs more parts to it. Another warzone, more lairs, etc. Definitely casual friendly though, there really isn't anything in this game that isn't.

tempestorm76 · July 2018

I think it's fine as it is in all areas, and still remains casual friendly

spinnytop wrote: »

To clarify: It's fine as it is, but definitely needs more parts to it. Another warzone, more lairs, etc. Definitely casual friendly though, there really isn't anything in that game that isn't.

I agree. I would love to see more... but I have never felt there was a real barrier to entry to any of the content.

theravenforce · July 2018

My problem with endgame is that I don't usually have enough time to try it. Or when I am on...I don't see it announced or there isn't a suitable gathering for it.

It seems like the word "Casual" means different things to different people.

Sometimes when I do get lucky I really enjoy it, other times...not so much.

spinnytop · July 2018

I think it's fine as it is in all areas, and still remains casual friendly

theravenforce wrote: »

My problem with endgame is that I don't usually have enough time to try it. Or when I am on...I don't see it announced or there isn't a suitable gathering for it.

Maybe you should start doing the announcing. Make endgame happen on your time o3o

xcelsior41 · July 2018

Yeah, for casual I leave it open to interpretation for all. My casual isn't your casual most likely, and vice versa. For instance, I am in a similar boat to raven, in that certain times of the year(or even the entire year in the case of the last two) I couldn't hop on to even really do one cosmic run(at most I had ~20m to play in one instance and didn't feel like dragging down a cosmic run or attempting a TA due to time restraints). I fully agree, there really isn't any piece of content that is not casual from a skill perspective at all.

jaazaniah1 · July 2018

Ought to define what is considered "casual friendly." E.g. it could mean showing up at a cosmic at lvl 35, in random green gear, and never having read any of the material on the forums about these OMs. Or, it could mean something else.

omnilord · July 2018

I find the overall endgame to be less than satisfactory in a lot of areas, and as such is not casual friendly

Seems like every patch a new bug pops up for the Cosmic fights. Heck, most of the time I explain even Kiga's mechanics to someone that's never fought any of the Cosmics they decide it's not worth the trouble. That's even without getting into the bugs that all the Cosmics have.

And the Q-Zone isn't even in the same time zone as "casual friendly" if it was casual friendly, then a first timer wouldn't need to spend a few hours there before it stops being -instant- yank/stun rape, and just be really fast yank/stun rape.

lezard21 · July 2018

I think it's fine as it is in all areas, and still remains casual friendly

The endgame approach is ok, with baby steps in the Warzone that teach people "This is endgame, you can no longer charge in guns ablaizing and expect to win, you have to use your brain", a taste of what endgame boss fights are in the QWZ OMs, a lesson on the importance of everyone carrying their own weight in the regular 3 Cosmics, a test of whether you ARE capable of carrying your own weight in TA, and the final confrontation against Eidolon in which you apply everything that you've learned thus far.

But I do agree that more lairs and endgame zones would be cool.

xcelsior41 · July 2018

lezard21 wrote: »

The endgame approach is ok, with baby steps in the Warzone that teach people "This is endgame, you can no longer charge in guns ablaizing and expect to win, you have to use your brain", a taste of what endgame boss fights are in the QWZ OMs, a lesson on the importance of everyone carrying their own weight in the regular 3 Cosmics, a test of whether you ARE capable of carrying your own weight in TA, and the final confrontation against Eidolon in which you apply everything that you've learned thus far.

But I do agree that more lairs and endgame zones would be cool.

On a side note on that last bit, I think powers being fleshed out will add diversity to carry your own weight. It's getting very annoying to all these cookie cutter healer/tank builds(DPS is the most varied, I've seen. Surprisingly.)

pantagruel01 · July 2018

omnilord#8416 wrote: »

Seems like every patch a new bug pops up for the Cosmic fights. Heck, most of the time I explain even Kiga's mechanics to someone that's never fought any of the Cosmics they decide it's not worth the trouble.

Perhaps your explanation is overly involved. Kiga mechanics for dps:

In phase 1, wait for the cc to have the dogs controlled, then wait for a tank to pull a dog. Shoot that dog. Don't use cc powers.
In phase 2, wait for the cc to have the dogs controlled and for the tank to have Kigatilik aggro. Then stand where everyone else is standing and shoot ice tombs (if one is present), otherwise shoot Kigatilik.
Kigatilik generates ice storms. Avoid being killed by them.

magpieuk2014 · July 2018

I find the overall endgame to be less than satisfactory in a lot of areas, and as such is not casual friendly

A zone pitched between Vibora and the Q Zone would be fun. Like Vibora, it needs atmosphere, decent gear drops, moderately challenging enemies for solo play and a few Open Missions worth the candle. Cosmics, TA, etc, can go hang.

kamokami · July 2018

I think it's fine as it is in all areas, and still remains casual friendly

Of the 3 choices I'm closest to saying it's fine and is casual-friendly.

In my mind "casual" means someone who plays ~5 hours per week. It doesn't mean that they don't know what they are doing. So yeah, I do think that someone who plays ~5 hours per week can be immensely helpful in endgame content just fine.... and there is enough of it for them to engage with.

Now if the question was: "is endgame content new player-friendly for new players that play for 5 hours per week?" then I would change my answer to "No, but that's still fine....because it's endgame content".

Those players have Mega Ds in MC and Save the Earth and Rampages and Events with new revised bosses to engage with to prepare them for Qzone and TA and Cosmics. Could those players use more "prep content"? Yes I think that would help bridge the gap. But then I would not characterize that content as being "endgame".

Does endgame stuff really need to be dumbed down more? No. We, as a playerbase, are not that dumb. It'd be cool if we believed in ourselves and our friends a bit more. We can figure things out when we really want to.

darqaura2 · July 2018

I think it's okay, but could use some tweaks in certain areas to maybe incorporate more casual players

I picked form the choices available, but the real answer from would be "we need more endgame".

theravenforce · July 2018

I definitely agree that there should have been a lot more to bridge the gap between levelling content and endgame, it seems like a big leap in some aspects.

I would totally support a revamp of level 32+ content which steadily increases to Q-WZ level of difficulty, just so there's something to get people used to it.

I remember when I first encountered VIPER and got trashed time, after time, after time. And then Serpent Lantern was purchasable and I ran through that with friends and learnt who to target and what to do vs VIPER and what worked...and what didn't...and then fighting them actually became fun, instead of completely depressing.

I will freely admit...that unless I'm on a melee build...I don't typically enjoy going into the Warzone. It feels like there's a lot balanced against ranged builds (specially with the Demolisher Auras).

But maybe I'm doing it wrong! I've seen builds like Spinny's fight through it and it looks fun...I've had some fun with my own builds too, I've just got to put more effort into making it more fun I suppose?

spinnytop · July 2018

I think it's fine as it is in all areas, and still remains casual friendly

theravenforce wrote: »

But maybe I'm doing it wrong! I've seen builds like Spinny's fight through it and it looks fun...I've had some fun with my own builds too, I've just got to put more effort into making it more fun I suppose?

Having fun is hard work o3o

theravenforce wrote: »

I will freely admit...that unless I'm on a melee build...I don't typically enjoy going into the Warzone. It feels like there's a lot balanced against ranged builds (specially with the Demolisher Auras).

Eeeeeeeh, melee builds are definitely way more fun than they were pre-revamps, but ranged still has a lot going for it.

jonsills · July 2018

pantagruel01 wrote: »

Avoid being killed by them.

Oh, is that what I've been doing wrong all this time? I thought I was supposed to die! It's all so clear and easy now!

(Seriously, though, "don't get killed" is about the most useless advice that can be given regarding anything. And it's most of the "advice" I get regarding this "endgame" stuff, which is one reason why my endgame is just creating new toons.)

pantagruel01 · July 2018

jonsills wrote: »

(Seriously, though, "don't get killed" is about the most useless advice that can be given regarding anything.

"Kigatilik's storms do damage. This can be blocked, healed, or resisted, like any other damage in the game". Better?

spinnytop · July 2018

I think it's fine as it is in all areas, and still remains casual friendly

jonsills wrote: »

Oh, is that what I've been doing wrong all this time? I thought I was supposed to die! It's all so clear and easy now!

(Seriously, though, "don't get killed" is about the most useless advice that can be given regarding anything. And it's most of the "advice" I get regarding this "endgame" stuff, which is one reason why my endgame is just creating new toons.)

Yes, shame on somebody for talking to you as if you know anything at all about the game you've been playing for years.

Meanwhile, no surprise that yet again your response to somebody trying to help you get into the endgame is sarcasm and excuses. I mean who cares right? We all know know this is just going to end up with you saying "Not for me!" and settling comfortably back into your Bubble of Can't as part of your ongoing revenge campaign against those naughty WoW raiders who were rude to you that one time.

waybig · July 2018

I think it's fine as it is in all areas, and still remains casual friendly

Well it's friendly, the cosmics are fine as it is, but having more lairs could be always nice,.

xcelsior41 · July 2018

spinnytop wrote: »

jonsills wrote: »

Oh, is that what I've been doing wrong all this time? I thought I was supposed to die! It's all so clear and easy now!

(Seriously, though, "don't get killed" is about the most useless advice that can be given regarding anything. And it's most of the "advice" I get regarding this "endgame" stuff, which is one reason why my endgame is just creating new toons.)

Yes, shame on somebody for talking to you as if you know anything at all about the game you've been playing for years.

Meanwhile, no surprise that yet again your response to somebody trying to help you get into the endgame is sarcasm and excuses. I mean who cares right? We all know know this is just going to end up with you saying "Not for me!" and settling comfortably back into your Bubble of Can't as part of your ongoing revenge campaign against those naughty WoW raiders who were rude to you that one time.

This thread isn't for this. Sure, it can come off as snarky but yeah, "don't die" is a very ignorant response to be honest. After panta's revision I feel that may be something better to say to someone new. Shouldn't the idea be to encourage others to join endgame? I don't think this helps anymore than jon's original response.

spinnytop · July 2018

I think it's fine as it is in all areas, and still remains casual friendly

Someone new wouldn't be doing Cosmics anyway. They'd be doing them after leveling to 40, at which point they no longer qualify as new and should have some idea what "Don't let things kill you" means. If they can't figure that out, they're not ready for Cosmics. Hell they're not ready for Custom Alerts.

jennymachx · July 2018

> @jonsills said:
> pantagruel01 wrote: »
>
> Avoid being killed by them.
>
>
>
> Oh, is that what I've been doing wrong all this time? I thought I was supposed to die! It's all so clear and easy now!
>
> (Seriously, though, "don't get killed" is about the most useless advice that can be given regarding anything. And it's most of the "advice" I get regarding this "endgame" stuff, which is one reason why my endgame is just creating new toons.)

Dying when fighting Kiga heals him and every time someone faceplants during the fight, it works to prolong it and opens up more opportunities for the fight ending in a wipe and reset. A wipe and reset mean not only Kiga getting back up to full health, but also those pesky dogs respawning.

So when someone says "don't die" with referrence to Kiga, maybe know what the context is behind that being said before jumping to the conclusion that you came to.

And just to expand a little, "don't die" primarily refers to blocking during the storm DoT and destroying the tombs as quickly as possible whenever they show up.

darqaura2 · July 2018

I think it's okay, but could use some tweaks in certain areas to maybe incorporate more casual players

Or better yet point the user to the various guides on the forums explaining endgame and the cosmics if it's their first time. More useful than saying anything else or trying to explain to them yourself.

theglasskitten · July 2018

I think it's fine as it is in all areas, and still remains casual friendly

I think the end game is extremely casual friendly. There are no barriers to entry for the majority of end game content. I’ve often seen low levels sidekick up to level 40 and provide meaningful contribution.

shadowolf505 · July 2018

I think it's okay, but could use some tweaks in certain areas to maybe incorporate more casual players

> @theglasskitten said:
> I think the end game is extremely casual friendly. There are no barriers to entry for the majority of end game content. I’ve often seen low levels sidekick up to level 40 and provide meaningful contribution.
>
>

I mean, you have to be a specific level but thats about it.

jonsills · July 2018

pantagruel01 wrote: »

jonsills wrote: »

(Seriously, though, "don't get killed" is about the most useless advice that can be given regarding anything.

"Kigatilik's storms do damage. This can be blocked, healed, or resisted, like any other damage in the game". Better?

Yes, actually, it is. "Don't get killed" is just the sort of hopelessly vague advice that longtime hardcore endgame players have been giving me for years now. And then they act like I'm either stupid or deliberately obtuse when I ask how to not get killed - not all attacks can be blocked, and there I am standing there like an idiot holding down my shift key while everyone else is ducking behind something or getting out of range or jumping onto the right color of floor tile or something.

spinnytop · July 2018

I think it's fine as it is in all areas, and still remains casual friendly

Some people come prepared, some people show up and expect others to prepare them.

xcelsior41 · July 2018

jonsills wrote: »

pantagruel01 wrote: »

jonsills wrote: »

(Seriously, though, "don't get killed" is about the most useless advice that can be given regarding anything.

"Kigatilik's storms do damage. This can be blocked, healed, or resisted, like any other damage in the game". Better?

Yes, actually, it is. "Don't get killed" is just the sort of hopelessly vague advice that longtime hardcore endgame players have been giving me for years now. And then they act like I'm either stupid or deliberately obtuse when I ask how to not get killed - not all attacks can be blocked, and there I am standing there like an idiot holding down my shift key while everyone else is ducking behind something or getting out of range or jumping onto the right color of floor tile or something.

For things like Kiga, you can stand in the DPS pile. Actually, screw it. For them ALL you just stand in the DPS pile and do your thing. I carry this motto from CoH: Move with the group. You don't, you die. For ape, the only thing is if you're melee don't immediately lunge, as it takes a second for the pits to appear. During that time of course, block and then lunge or move somewhere safe. Also, don't attack hearts that spawn(Red, purple, and I think blue?). Simply just target ape and only use ST attacks.

cptmassive1 · July 2018

I find the overall endgame to be less than satisfactory in a lot of areas, and as such is not casual friendly

The problem with endgame content in CO has little to do with difficulty. It is the sheer amount of standing around and jockeying to get players into zones and roles. This I find ludicrous. Casual players can do it easily...*IF* they are pigonholed into these roles and power combos. Which I also find ludicrous.

I love the game but the standing around part (which you must do to keep your spot in zone) is almost a deal-breaker so, so often.

pwestolemyname · July 2018

Uhhh... I can't vote? If there was something I could vote for, it would be something like, "There needs to be more and harder endgame content." And, there needs to be some incentive, some prize, for doing it.

What I'd like to see, pretty much just leave the current "endgame" content alone, TA, QWZ, Cosmics, but add more 40+ content and make some of that harder than the current stuff. Put some good sparklies in the rotation for the new content, stuff you can't get anywhere else. And, honestly, I'd say cut down the rewards for regular Cosmics. The rewards are pretty out of line for 10-15 minutes of work... er... I mean play.

To some extent, more endgame could be added quickly and easily just by adding additional rewards for running things like Vikoran on higher difficulty. Those are kind of fun, but they hardly ever get played because there aren't any real rewards for doing so.

Same thing for the comic series. Kind of fun, but nobody does them much because not worth the time in terms of potential rewards. Again, make the drops scale with difficulty.

And, Skipping the Rift is just a joke, really. Harder, more rewards.

Some bigger dungeon runs would be a lot of fun, too. Again, could be done to some extent without much effort. Make Vikkie and his buddies scale on team size up to like 20. Everyone who goes in gets stuck in a teamup, until that instance is filled. Then another instance spawns.

We could also use a horde battle, with thousands of baddies that we have to crush through to get to the main guy. The bugs or frogs are both perfect for this.

markhawkman · July 2018

shadowolf505 wrote: »

> @theglasskitten said:
> I think the end game is extremely casual friendly. There are no barriers to entry for the majority of end game content. I’ve often seen low levels sidekick up to level 40 and provide meaningful contribution.

I mean, you have to be a specific level but thats about it.

Well, sort of. I've managed to getCosmic credit as low as level 22... as a healer.
screenshot_2018_04_16_21_02_45_by_marhawkman-dc925ou.jpg

Yeah, you don't get GCR OR SCR at that level... you do get a generous amount of UNTIL rec though.

cptmassive1 · July 2018

I find the overall endgame to be less than satisfactory in a lot of areas, and as such is not casual friendly

ok now I want to do cosmics with a lvl 20 archery/earth build.

spinnytop · July 2018

I think it's fine as it is in all areas, and still remains casual friendly

cptmassive1 wrote: »

Casual players can do it easily...*IF* they are pigonholed into these roles and power combos. Which I also find ludicrous.

I also find it ludicrous... primarily because it's not true.

pwestolemyname · July 2018

cptmassive1 wrote: »

ok now I want to do cosmics with a lvl 20 archery/earth build.

Don't forget to be wearing level 12 green drop gear. Also, post the build

soulforger · July 2018

I find the overall endgame to be less than satisfactory in a lot of areas, and as such is not casual friendly

spinnytop wrote: »

Someone new wouldn't be doing Cosmics anyway. They'd be doing them after leveling to 40, at which point they no longer qualify as new and should have some idea what "Don't let things kill you" means. If they can't figure that out, they're not ready for Cosmics. Hell they're not ready for Custom Alerts.

Considering how fast it can be to level, a person could still be very much new to the game for they only had it for less than a day. Being new is not determined by the character's level. It is determined by skill level and time played. Though at which point can you consider an unskilled person to no longer be new and just bad at a game...well, that is hard to determine.

cptmassive1 · July 2018

I find the overall endgame to be less than satisfactory in a lot of areas, and as such is not casual friendly

I am waiting for you to say, "well I can do it so..." (RE: definition of "casual?" You ain't it.)

If some powers are the ones always being used, there is a good reason. There are powers in every set that rise up and powers that are hardly ever used. Same with power sets.

For main tanks there is one passive that is substantially better for all cosmics. No debate. When regen and PFF MT become "easy" I might agree with you.

For healers there are healing powers that work and there are healing powers that if you rely on them you'll get people killed due to cooldowns, targeting restrictions or lack of HPS. Unless someone else carries you, that is.

For dps, is there not a near-flowchart formula to build their toons in order to be effective for dps checks at dino/eido? We should ask the people who built that guide what its purpose was and if people should just ignore it.

Its called the "endgame" build guide, not the CO build guide. In other words, you can do 90% of the content in this game by almost essentially hitting randomize on your powers. For cosmics, you're limited on your choices.

Don't get me wrong - I think it was a great idea to post the guide and help people build -- but that reinforces my point that the guide came from you and others being tired of missing the checks due to "bad" builds.

For eido runs is there not a repeated call for "dps in dps role with dps passive?"

For ccing there is pretty much a requirement to have ego sleep and one of two stuns IIRC.

Hybrids? Why you wasting our time, yo?

Pets.

The list goes on.

Maybe you're saying someone can be suboptimal and get away with it because there are enough strong players to carry them. Maybe...for a while. But I've watched over the years how many players have reacted to people bashing them, shunning, "ninja" runs to avoid them so I know you don't really mean that.

If you don't follow the bible you are eventually shat upon.

Much of the variety is cut away by the trinity and specific mission requirements.

"But that has to be true of solo content too then." No, it doesn't. I can waste my time and try to make an archery/earth/telepathy build work on a solo mission 30x in a row if I want. With cosmics, after a while I'd be considered trolling if I was affecting anyone but myself (getting killed at kiga, not healing tanks, pets on dogs, etc.).

spinnytop wrote: »

cptmassive1 wrote: »

Casual players can do it easily...*IF* they are pigonholed into these roles and power combos. Which I also find ludicrous.

I also find it ludicrous... primarily because it's not true.

nbkxs · July 2018

I think it's fine as it is in all areas, and still remains casual friendly

I think it's mostly fine, it's just getting a bit boring now, with destroyer broken, and unable to do; we need more epic raids like TA, TT, or Andrith would be SO good, and it would help to bring a little break to the routine. TA is so ground by now, that often times you mess things up, cuz you're so zombino'd out from having done it so much, that it just happens, and that's not because Cat's zombie bit you, it's just because that's what happens over time. The only other issue I have is when someone shows up to dino/kiga/ape, and can provide absolutely nothing to contribute, and only makes it harder by being there, is annoying.

zamuelpwe · July 2018

I think it's okay, but could use some tweaks in certain areas to maybe incorporate more casual players

I think the biggest problem with the endgame and casuals isn't the actual endgame. Rather, it's a lot of the lead up to it. It feels like there's ways that the game could do a better job teaching mechanics but there is the argument that the attempt might be ignored. Granted, some of that comes down to power revamps and the design of regular enemies.

pwestolemyname wrote: »

We could also use a horde battle, with thousands of baddies that we have to crush through to get to the main guy.

I think there is something to be said for how the current cosmics heavily favor only one type of tank despite the game supposedly having multiple options.

pantagruel01 · July 2018

zamuelpwe wrote: »

I think there is something to be said for how the current cosmics heavily favor only one type of tank despite the game supposedly having multiple options.

I wouldn't really say 'heavily'. It's just that even a fairly modest advantage (defiance is about 10% better than invuln) translates as no real reason to use anything else

theglasskitten · July 2018

I think it's fine as it is in all areas, and still remains casual friendly

> @nbkxs said:
> I think it's mostly fine, it's just getting a bit boring now, with destroyer broken, and unable to do; we need more epic raids like TA, TT, or Andrith would be SO good, and it would help to bring a little break to the routine. TA is so ground by now, that often times you mess things up, cuz you're so zombino'd out from having done it so much, that it just happens, and that's not because Cat's zombie bit you, it's just because that's what happens over time. The only other issue I have is when someone shows up to dino/kiga/ape, and can provide absolutely nothing to contribute, and only makes it harder by being there, is annoying.

Hey! I have a small zombie squad going! Zombie's will soon take over the cosmic scene! lol on another note, more end game private lairs would be so amazing.

spinnytop · July 2018

I think it's fine as it is in all areas, and still remains casual friendly

cptmassive1 wrote: »

Pets.

The list goes on.

Yes, because you keep padding it with things like "Pets" while my pet build scores very well at cosmics. I think the problem might be that you both place too much importance on Dino, and have an exaggerated idea about what the dps requirements are for helpful contribution at Dino. They're actually quite low, so anyone like you who feels they have to stick to a very narrow selection of powers to be "adequate" would actually fall more under the category of "tryhard", rather than "casual". The number of powers you can use while still providing enough dps that you don't need to be carried are actually quite broad. Absolute top performance is not required, nor demanded.

It's interesting that it seems like the people who know less about these things are always the ones claiming it's not casual friendly, and is highly restrictive, while the people who know more are the ones always saying the opposite. The numbers are what they are, and they support the latter group's claims.

pantagruel01 · July 2018

spinnytop wrote: »

The number of powers you can use while still providing enough dps that you don't need to be carried are actually quite broad.

I mean, your energy builder won't do it, but the threshold for net asset is about 1/4 of what the top dps is doing.

theravenforce · July 2018

I do agree that there seems to be a certain formula required to participate competitively in Endgame (score wise), however...with more and more sets being reviewed and in some cases fleshed out...the same formula is increasing in its application.

I'm hopeful that this will translate appropriately across other sets which have yet to be reviewed.

It may be the case that you can't mix sets the way you want to, but in some instances...there's usually an in set option which mechanically works well and looks good too.

soulforger · July 2018

I find the overall endgame to be less than satisfactory in a lot of areas, and as such is not casual friendly

I'm beginning to think that people think diffrently on what people mean by being able to participate in Endgame content.

For me, example, it means being reliable and not just meeting the minimum score requirement for rewards. While it is obvious some people are just meaning to be able to participate period without being reliable.

spinnytop · July 2018

I think it's fine as it is in all areas, and still remains casual friendly

soulforger wrote: »

For me, example, it means being reliable and not just meeting the minimum score requirement for rewards. While it is obvious some people are just meaning to be able to participate period without being reliable.

Well, if the cosmic was successful, and an individual gets rewards, is there anything more needed to indicate that they have successfully participated? Are you maybe suggesting that the contribution threshold should be raised?

magpieuk2014 · July 2018

I find the overall endgame to be less than satisfactory in a lot of areas, and as such is not casual friendly

ok now I want to do cosmics with a lvl 20 archery/earth build.

You could do OK with an Archery one... lots of stuns and debuffs and things in that set that you could use. I think Earth has debuffs in there as well which might be useful. You'd probably die a lot, though, just because of the base damage and lack of DR. Probably best to stand in front of the healer.

Unknown · July 2018

This content has been removed.

cptmassive1 · July 2018

I find the overall endgame to be less than satisfactory in a lot of areas, and as such is not casual friendly

spinnytop wrote: »

Yes, because you keep padding it with things like "Pets" while my pet build scores very well at cosmics.

So score matters now? Damn, been doing this all wrong.

When referring to pets I was talking about Kiga/Ape. You know, where pets can easily ruin the run by attacking things they shouldn't.

spinnytop wrote: »

I think the problem might be that you both place too much importance on Dino, and have an exaggerated idea about what the dps requirements are for helpful contribution at Dino. They're actually quite low, so anyone like you who feels they have to stick to a very narrow selection of powers to be "adequate" would actually fall more under the category of "tryhard", rather than "casual". The number of powers you can use while still providing enough dps that you don't need to be carried are actually quite broad. Absolute top performance is not required, nor demanded.

Eido? No problem with hybrid dpsers there? Kewl. Must be why there's all those successful runs lately.

I wish I had the time to dig up the posts where you refute what you just said there. It isn't about minimum thresholds and you know it. It is about covering the dps for the tanks, healers and low dps-ers.

So yes, there very much is a need for people to do well above the minimum standard for participation, because others won't, most of the time. (not most people, most runs, well and even sometimes, most people)

spinnytop wrote: »

It's interesting that it seems like the people who know less about these things are always the ones claiming it's not casual friendly, and is highly restrictive, while the people who know more are the ones always saying the opposite. The numbers are what they are, and they support the latter group's claims.

And those who claim to know more and don't read...

I said it was casual friendly *IF* you follow the formula (assuming doing so falls into that category, which I say it is easy enough to do but others don't).

I can remove ~10% of the powers from the build choices and watch the cosmic failure rate spike. If the game is not restrictive to certain powers and sets it shouldn't work that way. And since I know so little it should be a breeze for any team to circumvent the loss of a few powers.

I'm sure we could test that with a team on PTS.

spinnytop · July 2018

I think it's fine as it is in all areas, and still remains casual friendly

cptmassive1 wrote: »

So score matters now? Damn, been doing this all wrong.

Having a high score means that not only did you contribute, you contributed a lot. More than others who aren't pet builds. So yes, for the purposes of this discussion score matters. Specifically having a high score.

cptmassive1 wrote: »

When referring to pets I was talking about Kiga/Ape. You know, where pets can easily ruin the run by attacking things they shouldn't.

Yes, my pet build does Kiga/Ape. In fact, she scores highest in those fights.

cptmassive1 wrote: »

Eido? No problem with hybrid dpsers there? Kewl. Must be why there's all those successful runs lately.

When Eido wasn't bugged we succeeded with hybrids present. Hell, we succeeded with leechers present. Having all top-end dps there resulted in a giggle-worthy 4 minute run. That was hardly required for success. Yes, in callouts we asked only for dps - hybrids nearly always showed up, and we won anyway.

The current issue with Eido is bugs, not hybrids. He's being failed even with all high-end dps present. Get your facts straight.

cptmassive1 wrote: »

I wish I had the time to dig up the posts where you refute what you just said there. It isn't about minimum thresholds and you know it. It is about covering the dps for the tanks, healers and low dps-ers.

So yes, there very much is a need for people to do well above the minimum standard for participation, because others won't, most of the time. (not most people, most runs, well and even sometimes, most people)

As has been pointed out, top-end dps is not the minimum threshold. Doing about 1/4th of what the top end dpsers do means you're doing enough. That's somewhere around 2k dps, easily attainable by somebody not following Kamo's thread ( in fact, if you're following Kamo's thread you should be easily breaching 3k while being lazy ). Dino DPS checks generally fail because people are not attacking, due to blocking or having died.

cptmassive1 wrote: »

And those who claim to know more and don't read...

I said it was casual friendly *IF* you follow the formula (assuming doing so falls into that category, which I say it is easy enough to do but others don't).

And I pointed out that's not true. Following that formula is what pushes you up beyond the minimum threshold. Kamo's thread, unsurprisingly, is for people who want to excel at the dps role, not for those who want to contribute the bare minimum. You think kamo would waste their time giving advice that only achieves the bare minimum?

cptmassive1 wrote: »

I can remove ~10% of the powers from the build choices and watch the cosmic failure rate spike. If the game is not restrictive to certain powers and sets it shouldn't work that way. And since I know so little it should be a breeze for any team to circumvent the loss of a few powers.

Well, good news, it doesn't work that way. You can believe otherwise, but you're certainly not convincing anyone else to restrict their power choices.

soulforger · July 2018

I find the overall endgame to be less than satisfactory in a lot of areas, and as such is not casual friendly

spinnytop wrote: »

soulforger wrote: »

For me, example, it means being reliable and not just meeting the minimum score requirement for rewards. While it is obvious some people are just meaning to be able to participate period without being reliable.

Well, if the cosmic was successful, and an individual gets rewards, is there anything more needed to indicate that they have successfully participated? Are you maybe suggesting that the contribution threshold should be raised?

Maximum hell to the no on that raise. What I was meaning is that due to differences in what people consider casual and friendly to casual, people are really talking about different ways they participate.

Endgame

Endgame 36 votes

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