That's why I said "DS is a (mostly)single target power". Ive replaced the word "radius" with "effectiveness" for clarity.
You seem to be implying that UR and DS are on equal footing, so im going to give it another shot and try to keep an open mind.
Since were talking about the last hit on DS...AOE knock back can be problematic/messy for melee dps and frustrating for teammates. AOE knock back is something I would expect (ironically) from a more tank focused melee set like might. I suggest the AOE knock back on the last hit be changed to knock down so the power doesn't make such a mess. also.. Bug: If you partially charge DS the animation will play without the damage.
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That's why I said "DS is a (mostly)single target power".
You seem to be implying that UR and DS are on equal footing, so im going to give it another shot and try to keep an open mind.
Since were talking about the last hit on DS...AOE knock back can be problematic/messy for melee dps and frustrating for teammates. AOE knock back is something I would expect (ironically) from a more tank focused melee set like might. I suggest the AOE knock back on the last hit be changed to knock down so the power doesn't make such a mess. also.. Bug: If you partially charge DS the animation will play without the damage.
Melee DPS's tend to have tools to travel quite well between enemies or drag enemies towards them, so I don't think the KB will be too much of an issue.
Equally, for teammates...if they are all melee, I can see what you mean if the knockback is extreme (anything over 80ft for melee practicality for follow on attacks) but in other instances...ranged team mates can pick them off.
I think it would be cool to have a one point advantage which turns it into a knockdown, but keep the knock back innate.
Besides, this is an ultimate ability...not a spammable one.
Honestly, I tested the ult and got about 14-18k from that alone. And assuming something given a toggle ultimate like Pande doesnt mean everything has to be the same amount of damage.
I am not comparing to Pandemonium. I am comparing to the normal rotation and assuming a certain amount of damage that you "should" get out of an ultimate.
18k damage over 2.5 seconds is 7.2 dps while you use the ultimate, that is lower than just spamming the normal rotation. So all in all I don't know what you're trying to say. Do you think that is good and an ultimate should lower your overall damage?
I'm just saying that the ultimate is good enough as is personally. That's all.
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> @aiqa said: > Regarding damage on ultimates. I think the best way to balance that is to decide on how much damage they should add on top of your normal rotation. > >
Haven't had the time to test the ultimate myself, I agree with this in general. If the ultimate adds nothing to your rotation, there really is no point in getting it.
I'm just saying that the ultimate is good enough as is personally. That's all.
Can you explain what purpose it would serve?
I'd get the ult just for the looks alone- even if it did no dmg But yea, it does seem to be lacking in burst dps (or any related utility beyond a pretty common debuff in Disorient or common knock effects, or applying Chi Flame for UA builds that should already be doing that). We don't need all ults to do amazing dmg, but they should still be mechanically compelling somehow.
Someone brought a fair point to my attention on PTS. UR is a very specialized ultimate that only works with enrage and thus is only useful to melee knock builds. On the other hand, DS can be used with any form on just about any build. This means that for most builds, DS is the obvious choice between the two.
With that in mind, a more apples to apples comparison would probably meltdown and DS. I also took DS out of the power house and into the Q-warzone for a more realistic test... I still think that aiqa's point about ultimate damage v rotation dps is valid. Also still think adding a lunge element to DS would make the power cooler and easier to use (and thus drive more lockbox sales). I have generally been wanting a lunge that does heavy damage though... maybe 2018 will be the year.
I now think that kaizerin probably considers the knock and chi flame elements of the power to be the "utility" and not to expect much movement on that front.
Overall, I would say that DS is "usable" and stands up decently next to other "lock box Ultamates". I think it could move from "usable" to "desirable" with at least a lunge if not a tweak to its dmg.
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A lunge on DS is unrealistic, the animation is set.
Not all ultimates are going to be straight DPS boosters against bosses. DS sports a huge knockback which works great for mobs (and the fall damage will do quite a bit on mobs affected by knocks).
The damage on it is about where we want it. The single target portion is going to get a minor boost next patch and the blast portion will apply Chi Flame to all targets.
Not all ultimates are going to be straight DPS boosters against bosses. DS sports a huge knockback which works great for mobs (and the fall damage will do quite a bit on mobs affected by knocks).
MVs and Enforcers don't suffer falling damage, and most melee ults simply oneshot villains and henchmen.
There are many non-ultimates, with minor or no cooldowns, that have strong knockbacks. But I guess it's not needed for all powers to be good, still a shame imo. At it's current level DS doesn't justify a minute long cooldown
Suggestion: Lower the cooldown on DS to 20 seconds.
@kaizerin Thanks for being so transparent about this. It really helps when you know where the devs stand on issues. I figured that adding a lunge would cause complicated animation problems. I'm not surprised, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask.
A more realistic Suggestion?: Let the final hit of DS do bonus damage against knock immune targets similar to open palm strike and haymaker.
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And people don't use them anyway, because most of the time knockback is a liability, not an advantage.
Exactly. A knock up/down as the baseline, with the knockback reserved for an advantage would probably be a lot better. On my melee characters, I look for ways to knock targets toward me, not away.
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Fixed a bug where Hundred Hands had a chance to apply Demolish without fully maintaining the ability.
Adjusted the FX on Burning Chi Fist.
Adjusted the speed lines FX on Hundred Hands.
Changed the large threat over time bonus available on some ultimates to all use the same effect. This has no change on the actual performance of the effect, but will just cause it to stack on a target if multiple sources use it. This is mostly being done to declutter the debuff tray.
Devastating Strike
Now applies Chi Flame to all affected targets.
Slightly increased the initial single target damage.
hmm, should have been about 15~20% on the single target side.
A bit less than 50% a bit more than 20%. I am seeing about 38% for the single target portion. Which is a nice change really, at least it's viable as a spike attack now.
DS definitely should not root while charging. Your target can easily walk out of range while you charge, the animation will still play but the damage wont register. This can be confusing and frustrating.
The jogging test dummies in the powerhouse can reliably move out of melee before DS completes its charge thus causing it to misfire, but still play the animation. Any NPC from a Master Villain to a test dummy can cancel your ultimate by moving away form you .
Suggestion: Let players move while charging Devastating Strike.
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BCF righteous fury is pretty good, and it looks cool too.
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Bug Dragon Kick I keep getting message whenever I use it that my character is out of targeting arc when it's a non-target aoe. I can't use this power at all when there's a rank in it, but it does work when it's un-ranked.
Bug Dragon Kick I keep getting message whenever I use it that my character is out of targeting arc when it's a non-target aoe. I can't use this power at all when there's a rank in it, but it does work when it's un-ranked.
This was reported on the last PTS patch, which seems to keep being unfixed, I hope the next patch has a fix for this problem, thank you!
Does anyone really bother using Ultimates VS trash mobs? Knock back seems pointless.
Only on multiply mobs with 2-3 Bars and in Alerts before reaching the Boss battle so there can be plenty of time inbetween for it to recharge
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Suggestion Make the sound effect for Elbow Smash more like an explosive impact (it currently sounds like something between a large raindrop and a knife stab). Also, give it a knockdown. The power currently feels, sounds, and looks like it has no weight, these changes would make it feel more satisfying.
Nice job on the animation though. Fun powers like this give me ideas.
Suggestion Increase the radius of the aoe cylinder of the kamehameha (open palm strike?). It seems too narrow for such a short power.
Does anyone really bother using Ultimates VS trash mobs? Knock back seems pointless.
Absolutely. Some, like Unleashed Rage, will utterly decimate decent-sized packs of trash which gets them out of the way faster. In alerts, the cooldown is short enough that it'll most likely be available again by the time you get to the boss, especially if you have to endure a cutscene before you engage it.
When soloing/questing, bosses are generally irrelevant, whereas being able to hit up to 10 things for a huge lump of damage is not.
That said, yeah, the knockback is extremely pointless and actually counterproductive since the whole idea behind aoe is to clump things together so your/everyone else's aoe can continue to hit them, not scatter them apart so that nobody's aoe hits them.
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So... knockback on an Ult is pretty much pointless since when people do Ult trash, it's to one-shot and most people don't want to fling trash all over the place due to being a health hazard. There's at least a built in damage buff to KB resistant mobs though, right? Right?
Fixed a bug where the dodge buff could fall off if you blocked too quickly.
Changed the dodge buff so it wouldn't reduce in effectiveness against high level targets.
Reduced the duration of the dodge buff to 10 seconds (from 15).
This power is now an area effect.
Cost slightly increased for being an area effect.
New Advantage (3): Reduces the cooldown on your healing abilities by 2 sec whenever you complete this combo.
So, why is fixing old bugs followed with a nerf to the duration of the most important buff for dodge tanks? I'm curious what is the reason for this change. 10 seconds is too short when you consider active combat with movement, getting knocked, blocking, and the need to refresh the buff before it expires.
Reduced the stack limit of this buff to 10 (from no limit).
Last time I heard this advantage was the only way to get to 100% dodge chance at bosses that reduce everyones dodge chance, not sure how true is that. But is there any way to achive that without having to use the new advantage on the energy builder. Are dodge tanks expected to spend half of their time using things like a combo and energy builders? That's not a good way to build threat as a tank. We need more viable tanking styles, not less.
Are Rush and Bountiful Chi Resurgence the only 2 chi energy effects or is chi flame also included? Because if it's not, I can see issues with the form and EU, making them harder to use and not offering anything unique for the unarmed powerset.
Suggestion Add a new advantage to Shuriken Storm and Bladed Cyclone that will allow the power to proc Rush on half or full maintain or any other effect that will proc a chi energy effect. Could be a 3 point rush advantage.
Suggestion Add an effect that will give you Focus stacks based on rank to Intensity. This AO is similar to Aggressor and should offer similar utility, making it a more viable power.
I wonder if we'll see Lightning Reflexes worked on in order to make it a decent choice for end game tanking? Seems like this should happen, since this is the MA power revamp?
Are Rush and Bountiful Chi Resurgence the only 2 chi energy effects or is chi flame also included? Because if it's not, I can see issues with the form and EU, making them harder to use and not offering anything unique for the unarmed powerset.
Chi Flame and a few of the juggled dodge buffs (like the one on thundering kicks) are also chi energy effects.
I wonder if we'll see Lightning Reflexes worked on in order to make it a decent choice for end game tanking?
It's a viable if odd choice at the moment, and probably will remain one, though the the change in the way thundering kicks works is a weird mix of buff and nerf.
Bug Circle of Primal Dominion can be dodged This removes stacks of quick maneuvering (and likely other buffs that vanish on a successful dodge) (I wonder if dodge effects can be tagged as only working vs damage, to remove the need to tag all non-damaging powers as impossible to dodge).
Is CC that makes it harder to aoe things down afterward really worth it, though? Not really.
If the CC aspect isn't useful, then you're likely fighting things where it doesn't matter if they're scattered or not, so just use your other aoe until their health is low, then finish with the Ultimate. When you are fighting things where CC is meaningful, then after the Ult you'll be using the fact that they're scattered to your advantage since you're not just in a situation where it's about mindlessly aoeing everything down.
Whether you can personally use the CC to your advantage or not doesn't change the fact that it is CC.
If the CC aspect isn't useful, then you're likely fighting things that don't warrant an ultimate to begin with.
Untrue. If it takes me ten seconds to burn down a group of foes, but they can take me down in eight, two seconds of cc is the difference between winning and losing -- as long as the cc doesn't reduce my ability to do further damage. Something like gravity driver is perfect for that. By comparison, a knockback is really only useful if it knocks some (but not all) of my opponents so far they aren't even a factor for an extended period, which means hundreds of feet (and can't happen at all indoors). A strength primary build can achieve that, but this is in a set that otherwise encourages dex primary setups.
Untrue. If it takes me ten seconds to burn down a group of foes, but they can take me down in eight, two seconds of cc is the difference between winning and losing -- as long as the cc doesn't reduce my ability to do further damage. Something like gravity driver is perfect for that. By comparison, a knockback is really only useful if it knocks some (but not all) of my opponents so far they aren't even a factor for an extended period, which means hundreds of feet (and can't happen at all indoors). A strength primary build can achieve that, but this is in a set that otherwise encourages dex primary setups.
Knocking them still gives you the opportunity to scatter them and deal damage to them individually without having to deal with the entire group at once, which increases the time it takes to burn you down as well - also the simple fact of being knocked means they're not damaging you, which gives you time to heal or something else. Use your lunge to get to them quickly and burn the most dangerous NPCs with single target damage, then the only ones left are the ones who will take much longer than 8 seconds to defeat you. This is a strategy I use myself and it's quite effective.
Also, if that's not satisfactory then use the strategy I also already mentioned: aoe the NPCs down a bit first, then finish them off with the Ultimate. Nothing is forcing you to lead with the Ultimate - though I still would, for the aforementioned benefits of scattering them.
Also, if that's not satisfactory then use the strategy I also already mentioned: aoe the NPCs down a bit first, then finish them off with the Ultimate. Nothing is forcing you to lead with the Ultimate - though I still would, for the aforementioned benefits of scattering them.
The basic problem is that scattered enemies cannot be hit by AoEs, which dramatically reduces your damage output (typically by half or more) -- and even worse if you wound up knocking all your targets out of range. That's only an even tradeoff if it also halves enemy damage output, and does so for long enough for you to defeat some of the scattered foes.
Comments
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You seem to be implying that UR and DS are on equal footing, so im going to give it another shot and try to keep an open mind.
Since were talking about the last hit on DS...AOE knock back can be problematic/messy for melee dps and frustrating for teammates. AOE knock back is something I would expect (ironically) from a more tank focused melee set like might.
I suggest the AOE knock back on the last hit be changed to knock down so the power doesn't make such a mess.
also..
Bug:
If you partially charge DS the animation will play without the damage.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Equally, for teammates...if they are all melee, I can see what you mean if the knockback is extreme (anything over 80ft for melee practicality for follow on attacks) but in other instances...ranged team mates can pick them off.
I think it would be cool to have a one point advantage which turns it into a knockdown, but keep the knock back innate.
Besides, this is an ultimate ability...not a spammable one.
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> Regarding damage on ultimates. I think the best way to balance that is to decide on how much damage they should add on top of your normal rotation.
>
>
Haven't had the time to test the ultimate myself, I agree with this in general. If the ultimate adds nothing to your rotation, there really is no point in getting it.
But yea, it does seem to be lacking in burst dps (or any related utility beyond a pretty common debuff in Disorient or common knock effects, or applying Chi Flame for UA builds that should already be doing that). We don't need all ults to do amazing dmg, but they should still be mechanically compelling somehow.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
UR is a very specialized ultimate that only works with enrage and thus is only useful to melee knock builds. On the other hand, DS can be used with any form on just about any build. This means that for most builds, DS is the obvious choice between the two.
With that in mind, a more apples to apples comparison would probably meltdown and DS. I also took DS out of the power house and into the Q-warzone for a more realistic test...
I still think that aiqa's point about ultimate damage v rotation dps is valid. Also still think adding a lunge element to DS would make the power cooler and easier to use (and thus drive more lockbox sales). I have generally been wanting a lunge that does heavy damage though... maybe 2018 will be the year.
I now think that kaizerin probably considers the knock and chi flame elements of the power to be the "utility" and not to expect much movement on that front.
Overall, I would say that DS is "usable" and stands up decently next to other "lock box Ultamates". I think it could move from "usable" to "desirable" with at least a lunge if not a tweak to its dmg.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Not all ultimates are going to be straight DPS boosters against bosses. DS sports a huge knockback which works great for mobs (and the fall damage will do quite a bit on mobs affected by knocks).
The damage on it is about where we want it. The single target portion is going to get a minor boost next patch and the blast portion will apply Chi Flame to all targets.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Suggestion:
Lower the cooldown on DS to 20 seconds.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Thanks for being so transparent about this. It really helps when you know where the devs stand on issues.
I figured that adding a lunge would cause complicated animation problems. I'm not surprised, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask.
A more realistic Suggestion?:
Let the final hit of DS do bonus damage against knock immune targets similar to open palm strike and haymaker.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
FC.31.20180108.10 Changes
Powers
Devastating Strike
Elbow Slam
Inexorable Tides
- Changed to a sphere area effect.
- Cost increased due to this change.
DS gained 0 slashing damage
>
> Suggestion:
> Lower the cooldown on DS to 20 seconds.
Yes to this. Seems like the most reasonable solution.
Your target can easily walk out of range while you charge, the animation will still play but the damage wont register. This can be confusing and frustrating.
The jogging test dummies in the powerhouse can reliably move out of melee before DS completes its charge thus causing it to misfire, but still play the animation. Any NPC from a Master Villain to a test dummy can cancel your ultimate by moving away form you .
Suggestion:
Let players move while charging Devastating Strike.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Bug
Dragon Kick
I keep getting message whenever I use it that my character is out of targeting arc when it's a non-target aoe. I can't use this power at all when there's a rank in it, but it does work when it's un-ranked.
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[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Make the sound effect for Elbow Smash more like an explosive impact (it currently sounds like something between a large raindrop and a knife stab). Also, give it a knockdown. The power currently feels,
sounds, and looks like it has no weight, these changes would make it feel more satisfying.
Nice job on the animation though. Fun powers like this give me ideas.
Suggestion
Increase the radius of the aoe cylinder of the kamehameha (open palm strike?). It seems too narrow for such a short power.
Also, thanks for buffing DS a bit and adding a threat adv, and Macho Man would be proud of Elbow Slam's new anim :x
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
When soloing/questing, bosses are generally irrelevant, whereas being able to hit up to 10 things for a huge lump of damage is not.
That said, yeah, the knockback is extremely pointless and actually counterproductive since the whole idea behind aoe is to clump things together so your/everyone else's aoe can continue to hit them, not scatter them apart so that nobody's aoe hits them.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Suggestion
Add a new advantage to Shuriken Storm and Bladed Cyclone that will allow the power to proc Rush on half or full maintain or any other effect that will proc a chi energy effect. Could be a 3 point rush advantage.
Suggestion
Add an effect that will give you Focus stacks based on rank to Intensity. This AO is similar to Aggressor and should offer similar utility, making it a more viable power.
Is CC that makes it harder to aoe things down afterward really worth it, though? Not really.
I think I'll just use this quote:
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Circle of Primal Dominion can be dodged
This removes stacks of quick maneuvering (and likely other buffs that vanish on a successful dodge)
(I wonder if dodge effects can be tagged as only working vs damage, to remove the need to tag all non-damaging powers as impossible to dodge).
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Whether you can personally use the CC to your advantage or not doesn't change the fact that it is CC.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Also, if that's not satisfactory then use the strategy I also already mentioned: aoe the NPCs down a bit first, then finish them off with the Ultimate. Nothing is forcing you to lead with the Ultimate - though I still would, for the aforementioned benefits of scattering them.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained