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Does Gadgeteering Need An Rework?

crynetingcryneting Posts: 2,309 Arc User
So, been trying to make an ideal build for my revamped techno-crh, but I've been struggling with ideal ways to do so, as we lack of any good " Gadgeteering" powers. or overall "Technology".

So, this is both an normal discussion and a small build tipping. Ideally: I'm looking for new powers that fit around a technologically advanced set, that uses "Plasma"/"Lazer" weapons and due to this crh, is a doctor/medic, powers that fit around there (Healing Drones, or special nanites, etc)

But we lack alot of such good powers, examples are say like from:


XCOM 2: Specialist/SPARK Class, that uses an Drone, as most of their "Powers", while they can have Mag/Plasma weapons.

Warframe: Frames like, Nova/Vauban/Octavia/Volt/Mag also spring to mind as controlling tech.


While we have great examples, we lack great powers.



So what you guys think?

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Comments

  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,344 Arc User
    Gadgeteering has a bunch of powers that are handy to cherrypick, but building a dedicated gadgeteer does not work well.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,632 Arc User

    Gadgeteering has a bunch of powers that are handy to cherrypick, but building a dedicated gadgeteer does not work well.

    ^ I think that pretty much sums up Gadgeteering's current situation.

    I remember being a bit miffed when I read Gadgeteering both in the Champs Powers book, and the description given in game for the power set, and yet...there were so many things missing.

    I'd like a more futuristic take on gadgeteering, and maybe that will happen one day.

    Ideally, Gadgeteering would retain some element of quirkiness, but have an overall, stronger feel with it being able to be fully self sufficient.

    (I've always wanted a Hybrid / Support passive which is a mix between Medical Nanites and AoRP and buffs pet damage and resistance.)

    I would imagine a gadgeteering review, would have to come after a pet AI review / update. Which is unlikely to be in the cards, so I think if gadgeteering was to be looked at any time soon...it would be a heavy focus on actual gadgets which players can use directly as well as new particle weapons.
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,352 Arc User
    Yes, and when the revamp happens, it should probably split gadgeteering into two distinct categories:

    - High-tech scifi stuff
    - Batman-style gadget stuff​​
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Posts: 1,422 Arc User
    better yet, split the high tech stuff off into its own powerset, like laser sword got split off power armor​​
  • magpieuk2014magpieuk2014 Posts: 1,220 Arc User
    Yup. At the moment Gadgeteering fails the "what do I make with this?" test. Very bitty and not really clear what type of hero you'd make with it.

    Overall I'd like....

    1) Energy pistols/rifles etc moved off into a ranged energy subset of Laser Sword (Future Soldier AT)
    2) A proper Tech support archetype (Juryrig as an AT)
    3) A Tech pet commander, based around DoT effects and CC/debuffs (Drone Commander AT)

    and finally

    4) the ability to add cross-set synergies to blast attacks through on-next-hit powers. Always seems daft to me that CO insists on having individual set versions of each attack and debuff type. Your true gadgeteer would have just have a gun and different types of ammunition, picking the appropriate type for their enemy.

  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,378 Arc User
    I dunno about splitting Gadgeteering up. It's actually the one set that seems perfectly suited to having a bunch of different things thrown together since wtf even is a gadget? There really isn't enough there to split anything off either - a "laser weapons" powerset would basically be munitions-lite. Better to keep them together and make them play to the theme of the set even more, rather than less. Like other sets it needs a good tight central loop but I would love it if it kept a lot of its "look at all this stuff I dumped out on a table" flavor. Would especially love if it was heavily cooldown ability based so you really feel like you have a bunch of gadgets you're using, rather than just an attack rotation.
  • crynetingcryneting Posts: 2,309 Arc User
    Lets hope its on the next drawing board.

  • magpieuk2014magpieuk2014 Posts: 1,220 Arc User
    There really isn't enough there to split anything off either - a "laser weapons" powerset would basically be munitions-lite

    Yup. Nothing wrong with that. We have a game full of enemies and allies with laser rifles, pulson lazers, Brickbuster guns..... but heroes have a few gadget weapons. Energy weapons already have a suitable passive (Quantum Stabiliser), toggle forms and EU available, and even nice synergies between melee and ranged powers. It's an easy gap to fill and one that would be quite popular as a character style. Then you can make the Gadgeteer weapons more about Crowd Control, Holds etc, with a pile of eccentric advantages and odd debuffs - a set of unexpected things.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,378 Arc User
    edited December 2017

    Then you can make the Gadgeteer weapons more about Crowd Control, Holds etc, with a pile of eccentric advantages and odd debuffs - a set of unexpected things.

    Except Gadgeteering would still need its core attack loop, which is what laser rifles/pistols are. When they broke Laser Sword out into its own set, PA didn't lose its primary means of attack. Rip laser guns out of Gadgeteering and you've only made the problem of "a set you cherry pick from but don't make a dedicated character out of" worse.
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,352 Arc User
    edited December 2017
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Except Gadgeteering would still need its core attack loop, which is what laser rifles/pistols are. When they broke Laser Sword out into its own set, PA didn't lose its primary means of attack. Rip laser guns out of Gadgeteering and you've only made the problem of "a set you cherry pick from but don't make a dedicated character out of" worse.
    Like with every framework revamp before it, it'd just be a matter of adding new powers to fill in the gaps. Assuming Exp blaster, burst ray, ion cannon, and pulse beam rifle get spliced out into their own framework, there's still ricochet throw, sonic boom generator, gas pellets, throwing blades, and the odd pre-strike effects in sonic device and toxic nanites. With the energy weapons and their particle damage out of the way, its damage types would likely be consolidated into slashing and sonic. Toxic would be a bit of an oddity, but that opens the door to possible synergy with infernal, and possibly even other sets if they add other, similar abilities for other damage types.

    Edit: As for energy weapons being "munitions lite," remember there wasn't much going on with laser swords initially either. That's why you have to fill in the gaps. One could argue that it's "MA-lite" but it still feels enough like its own set to make it stand out. It all depends on how creative they can be.​​
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,378 Arc User
    edited December 2017
    The difference here is, you're proposing that they make a gap first, then fill it. Seems like a rather convoluted justification. I'm not even sure what the proposed benefit is. Anything that could be in this energy weapons powerset would make just as much sense in the Gadgeteering powerset, which is essentially the "high tech weapons" set, compared to munitions the "conventional weapons" set. Laser sword was always an awkward fit in power armor since, well, it's not power armor.
  • magpieuk2014magpieuk2014 Posts: 1,220 Arc User
    There's nothing to say you can't put a single target ranged blast/ cone attack / 100ft single target range maintain attack back in the Gadgeteering set, spinny; there's no new animations needed, you just design the powers to go even further down the pulp sci-fi/golden age comic book route than the set currently does.

    Modern energy weapons would be, like munitions, reliable, but probably wouldn't excel (I'd make it more of a debuff set that the player needed to set up for max damage, rather than that part of the whole rapid maintain/critical mechanic which is a bit commonplace and, to be honest, rather OP).
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Posts: 1,422 Arc User
    there isn't anything 'hi-tech' about a chemical pellet or a piece of curved wood...that's why the set needs to be split up​​
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,352 Arc User
    Thing is, none of gadgeteering's powers really have the sort of rotational loop you're talking about. It's just a mess of awkward gimmicky stuff with no synergy, so really, splitting them apart isn't creating any sort of gap at all. The split I'm talking about is theme-based; a split between the high-tech, futuristic weaponry (energy weapons) vs the more modern/quirky things like batman gadgets and the other odds & ends. Several people have independently suggested they be split for basically the same reason.​​
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,378 Arc User
    aesica said:

    Thing is, none of gadgeteering's powers really have the sort of rotational loop you're talking about. It's just a mess of awkward gimmicky stuff with no synergy, so really, splitting them apart isn't creating any sort of gap at all. The split I'm talking about is theme-based; a split between the high-tech, futuristic weaponry (energy weapons) vs the more modern/quirky things like batman gadgets and the other odds & ends. Several people have independently suggested they be split for basically the same reason.​​

    Hence why it's likely that the only direct attacks in the set would be used to produce that loop, rather than removing them only to have to replace them with new direct attacks. Laser guns and sonic weapons are very much in the theme of the gadgeteering set.

    there isn't anything 'hi-tech' about a chemical pellet or a piece of curved wood...that's why the set needs to be split up​​

    Those boomerangs aren't made of wood. Yes, chemical pellets might be the lowest of the hi-tech stuff in the set. Now let's talk about flying robots.
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,352 Arc User
    edited December 2017
    There's still plenty of direct attacks to work with if you split them up.

    Energy Weapons:
    • Experimental Blaster: Blast
    • Experimental Burst Ray: AoE (Cone)
    • Pulse Beam Rifle: Single target attack
    • Orbital Cannon: Cooldown/heavy AoE

    Gadgets
    • Ricochet Throw: Blast
    • Throwing Blades: AoE (Cone)
    • Sonic Boom Generator: AoE (Sphere)
    • Strafing Run: Cooldown/heavy AoE

    So in terms of barebones, "energy weapons" already has the basics: A blast to apply burn through/whatever, a cone AoE, a single target maintain that will likely get bumped to T3, and for fun, a heavy-hitting opener via Orbital Cannon.

    Meanwhile, "gadgets" has its basics as well: A blast to apply some sort of sonic/slashing debuff, a choice of throwing blades or sonic boom generator for a cone or sphere AoE, and its on unique cooldown AoE via Strafing Run. Only thing really missing is a heavy-hitting single target ability--some sort of sound gun would probably work nicely, as would some throwing weapon barrage or whatever else. A stylistic choice between sonic-based attacks and throwy stuff would be ideal.

    I should note that, aside from the blasts as debuffing abilities, pulse beam rifle, and the niche cooldown AoEs, most of those abilities are generally unpopular due to not being maintains. Since maintains-for-all seems to be the intended design direction, new powers to facilitate this would likely be added whether gadgeteering was split up or not.

    Besides, keeping them all together means you have 3 major damage types to contend with instead of just 1 for energy weapons (particle) and 2 for gadgets (sonic, slashing). It also means a lot of redundant overlap. I also wouldn't be surprised if the throwy stuff found its way over to MA at some point, leaving gadgeteering as a mix of particle and sonic stuff while several of the non-toggle PA abilities found their way to gadgeteering.​ (If this were to happen, I'd sure hope that chest beam was refit to fire from an energy pistol or rifle)​​
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,344 Arc User
    aesica said:


    I should note that, aside from the blasts as debuffing abilities, pulse beam rifle, and the niche cooldown AoEs, most of those abilities are generally unpopular due to not being maintains.

    That's not why they're unpopular. The reason they're unpopular:
    • Experimental Blaster: it's actually a pretty solid performer as blast powers go, but blast powers in general don't make good core dps moves.
    • Experimental Burst Ray: a random chance to go on cooldown is horribly annoying.
    • Pulse Beam Rifle: it's ugly and makes a horrible noise, but is otherwise a pretty good power.
    • Orbital Cannon: the delay is crippling on this power; whoever designed it vastly underestimated how crippling it actually is. It needs to either have a much shorter delay, or do ridiculous damage so people are willing to put up with the annoyance.
    • Ricochet Throw: see experimental blaster.
    • Throwing Blades: super buggy.
    • Sonic Boom Generator: 'meh' damage at best, and the sonic debuff is kinda useless given that there aren't other high-damage sonic powers to take advantage of it.
    • Strafing Run: used to be super-OP. Now not super-OP, so people aren't willing to put up with its targeting BS.
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,352 Arc User
    Yeah, I suppose I should've said "one of the reasons." Of course those other things are also issues, as well as the fact that they all work horribly with the set's on EU.​​
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • magpieuk2014magpieuk2014 Posts: 1,220 Arc User
    I'm not even sure what the proposed benefit is. Anything that could be in this energy weapons powerset would make just as much sense in the Gadgeteering powerset, which is essentially the "high tech weapons" set, compared to munitions the "conventional weapons" set.

    It's about updating the game world, more than anything. CO is set at a time where futuristic weapons are just starting to edge out conventional munitions; the Police still have 9mm pistols but UNTIL and VIPER are fighting with energy weapons; heroes (always being on the bleeding edge of tech) would definitely be upgrading their weapons to compete, so why not acknowledge it? The bones of a set are already there, just needs a few more powers (support / attack drones that fit with the power set's buffs/debuffs, a big slow Ion Cannon in the Force Cascade style) and they'd be good to go.

    Gadgeteering itself needs a heck of a lot more work before it's ready for a revamp, but thematically it needs to be much more random, more "mad scientist".
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Posts: 1,422 Arc User
    edited December 2017
    yeah, strafing run would've been a fun power for me to use on several characters...but it is literally unusable for me the way they have it set up, because it can't be triggered at all on non-default keybind setups and i absolutely REFUSE to play with the horrible default setup just to be able to use ONE power

    what would need to be done with it is just turn it into a simple click (or charge) power that uses the position of your character in relation to the target to set up the direction the strafing run takes

    oh, and as to PBR being ugly...well, duh! the engine can't handle overly fancy effects on spammable powers, which is why incinerate is just a cylinder with an orange texture on it and a small FX coming off your hands...it doesn't have an impact FX​​
    Post edited by shadowfang240 on
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Posts: 1,422 Arc User
    i'd rather they make it like STO's orbital strike - decent burst damage and the only charge time is what happens AFTER you toggle the power​​
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,344 Arc User
    I'd change it from a delay to instead produce the crosshair at the start of charge, do damage at the end of charge, and do damage appropriate to a 4s charge time or whatever it winds up at.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Posts: 1,422 Arc User
    well...that's kind of how STO's orbital strike works​​
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,352 Arc User
    No, what I think he (she? I don't actually know...) means is that the crosshair animates while you charge it, then strikes at the end of the charge (which would also be the end of the animation). In STO, it's pretty much just an instant thing that has a long activation delay.

    Anyway either would be fine by me, really. Anything but the god-awful long charge followed by long delay that makes the power a pain to use.​​
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Posts: 1,422 Arc User
    well, i would've said a non-character animation during a charge isn't possible...but then i remembered gravity driver has one​​
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