Geez, I think you might actually be the saltiest person when it comes to the 2GM change. Well, I tried to just have a nice mature conversation with you about it, and you talked about poo a bunch. I'm okay with what that says about each of us as people.
Yeah I'm totally bitter about it despite the fact that I'm fine with the change except for it being silly that pistols do more damage than a minigun. How do you even pretend you're having a "mature conversation" when you apparently don't even read what I write? Or at least, you don't comprehend, since you think I'm "salty" about anything? Dork.
All I did was give my thoughts on the 2gun mojo change, without any sort of insults or whatever... and then you starting saying "shut up", saying weird stuff about poo, and making accusations. You sure have a weird way of communicating that you're not upset about something. I guess being abrasive is just in your nature no matter how you're feeling at the time
Anyhow, what part of my posts did you gather that I was upset about anything? I went out of my way to explain why they did what they did, and said the only part I didn't like was that little pistols do more damage than a gatling gun, because it's just silly. None of that is "upset" about anything.
Also, the whole "poo" thing was me censoring myself. If you need help with that, the sentence was "that crap is friggin' funny" but a little more adult-like. I didn't know the forums had given up on the word filter.
Also also, way to take like seven paragraphs and reducing it all to the fact that I said "poo" "a bunch" (you know, once, in a part that really didn't have context).
I'll be sure to put on my big-boy mature cap on whenever I talk to you henceforth. Pip, pip!
I'd be critical about pistols doing more damage than heavy support weapons if not for Red Hood and Deadpool.
Logic is not dispensed here, only cool factor.
In any realistic situation except for concealed carry a rifle always beats a handgun, but the game isn't exactly realistic to begin with.
At least CO gatlings still are useful. FO4 gatlings are a joke.
I think demolishing a pile of dudes with a huge gatling gun is way cooler than poking at them with pistols.
Logic definitely wasn't employed here, it was just the developers trying to justify the attack's damage versus adjusting the damage to its cost for the sake of whiny players.
The point about dual guns is to play John Woo movie.
I prefer the way it was handled instead of bringing 2GM down to its old levels. This way everyone can stick with their favorite visuals.
CO long time ago moved past having restricted weapon proggression for munitions. More and more weapon models are interchargeable for powers that before had more strict handgun/shotgun/rifle costume categories.
Personally I find CO gatling very uncool looking, if this power had a costume and animation choice where I can go John Rambo with hand-held M60 or PK... I'd consider using it.
Running around with big clunky Minigun or Arden with no visible backpack ammunition storage or power source for electrical motor... Doesn't cut it for me at all.
How this weapon is even supposed to work without all the rest of vehicle-mounted peripherals it needs to operate?
And it just happends that only one of available weapon models for gatling gun power is not a stationary chaingun with need for large external feeding and electric power... or hand operated crank. So for me it looks far too silly to ever consider its use.
Plus, to me a munition user is someone not-superpowered. A gatling gun is far too heavy and has far too much recoil to be carried by a baseline human being.
The point about dual guns is to play John Woo movie.
I prefer the way it was handled instead of bringing 2GM down to its old levels. This way everyone can stick with their favorite visuals.
CO long time ago moved past having restricted weapon proggression for munitions. More and more weapon models are interchargeable for powers that before had more strict handgun/shotgun/rifle costume categories.
Personally I find CO gatling very uncool looking, if this power had a costume and animation choice where I can go John Rambo with hand-held M60 or PK... I'd consider using it.
Running around with big clunky Minigun or Arden with no visible backpack ammunition storage or power source for electrical motor... Doesn't cut it for me at all.
How this weapon is even supposed to work without all the rest of vehicle-mounted peripherals in needs to operate?
Well like you said, it doesn't have to be realistic. I personally think the animation is great. I just think it's silly how we got to the point where pistols are the best gun ever.
the size and weight isn't an issue for my munitions character - werewolves always have strength far exceeding that of even the strongest human on earth
and who says a munitions user isn't going to be superpowered? supersoldiers will still use guns - they're not going to ditch them just because they got hulked up on serum
A typical comic book munitions "hero" is Frank Castle, or other human, not a werewolf.
The guy who has no power to carry a gatling everywhere.
So staying within real comic archetypes and not caring about less classic concepts - gatling has zero place on my characters.
I find it a double standard when someone's complaining about pistols equalling gatlings being silly, but sees nothing silly in a disfunctional weapon (a stationary machine gun without all this mounting and ammo boxes that usually go with vehicles is about as threatening as trying to pummel someone to death with a M4 lower receiver only).
A typical comic book munitions "hero" is Frank Castle, or other human, not a werewolf.
The guy who has no power to carry a gatling everywhere.
So staying within real comic archetypes and not caring about less classic concepts - gatling has zero place on my characters.
I find it a double standard when someone's complaining about pistols equalling gatlings being silly, but sees nothing silly in a disfunctional weapon (a stationary machine gun without all this mounting and ammo boxes that usually go with vehicles is about as threatening as trying to pummel someone to death with a M4 lower receiver only).
It's equally silly, full stop.
I totally agree. The assault rifle and the sniper rifle, however, have legit complaints about getting outdone by pistols.
A typical comic book munitions "hero" is Frank Castle, or other human, not a werewolf.
The guy who has no power to carry a gatling everywhere.
So staying within real comic archetypes and not caring about less classic concepts - gatling has zero place on my characters.
I find it a double standard when someone's complaining about pistols equalling gatlings being silly, but sees nothing silly in a disfunctional weapon (a stationary machine gun without all this mounting and ammo boxes that usually go with vehicles is about as threatening as trying to pummel someone to death with a M4 lower receiver only).
It's equally silly, full stop.
There are many factors in the settings of a comic book world that would make a hand-held minigun feasible. For starters, the few characters I have that use one are super-soldier types, that have more muscle than any normal human does. Werewolves with miniguns? Why not? It's all comics.
By that same logic though, certain pistols could have more power than your standard minigun, by way of super-tech or alien technology; the possibilities are endless.
But then still, why couldn't that technology be used on other types of guns? Any larger gun should be able to put out a lot more power behind each bullet, or just by throwing hundreds of rounds in a few seconds, instead of dozens, end up causing more damage than a smaller gun.
Also, I'm not just talking about the minigun; it's just the most extreme comparison. It's silly that pistols do more damage than a point-blank shotgun or any sort of assault rifle. Even within comic-book-logic.
Oh, another thing I forgot to mention. I don't play murderers, so within the concepts of my characters, the guns they use don't fire lethal bullets. Generally they'd be shooting some sort of non-lethal laser type of thing, which would at least help with the crazy amount of recoil you'd be dealing with on a standard minigun. Super-tech gyros or some such nonsense to counter the barrel spin, junk like that (if I HAD to explain it; I'm a firm believer of not having to explain away all the nuances of how everything works in comics).
Also, I'm not just talking about the minigun; it's just the most extreme comparison. It's silly that pistols do more damage than a point-blank shotgun or any sort of assault rifle. Even within comic-book-logic
I think that's justifiable, though. The additional close range damage should be down to the hero's skill - maybe it's rate of fire, or effective targeting - but they should be more effective at certain distances than an average grunt with a pistol, M16 or AK-47. However that effect should fall off quite quickly; and had it been done logically, 2GM would have been made into a melee range single target DPS power, rather like single Blade, with all the risk that entails.
Oh, another thing I forgot to mention. I don't play murderers, so within the concepts of my characters, the guns they use don't fire lethal bullets. Generally they'd be shooting some sort of non-lethal laser type of thing, which would at least help with the crazy amount of recoil you'd be dealing with on a standard minigun. Super-tech gyros or some such nonsense to counter the barrel spin, junk like that (if I HAD to explain it; I'm a firm believer of not having to explain away all the nuances of how everything works in comics).
That's your character concepts.
Just don't go into making arguments based on fluff like personal character concepts what is silly and what isn't and expect it being taken any valid.
A personal opinion what fits is not a basis for pondering a mechanical balance between powers.
You may also want to ask for different gatling models, because as for now only this one laser gatling from Z-store weapon pack is an energy weapon. All other CO gatlings are based off totally lethal real world pretty low tech slugthrowers, including even a XIX century crank-operated one and Fabrique Nationale 7.62.
As for technology, ask comic book writers why Red Hood sometimes carries a high-tech pistol instead of high-tech gatling.
Because it simply looks better on an acrobat-type guy than BFG.
it's only lethal if it's chambered with lethal bullets, but even in real life we have non-lethal bullets*...granted, i don't know if there are calibers that are compatible with gatling guns, but we have them
(*as non-lethal as any projectile fired at hundreds of yards per second can ever get)
Thing is, fractal and rubber bullets are produced mostly in pistol calibers which is why AT squads carry SMGs.
Machine guns are chambered with 5.56 or 7.62 rifle rounds and people rarely care about producing this kind of rounds for military.
It makes an awful lof of sense for a street level vigilante who's not a Bruce Wayne with secret access to their own weapon factories to carry handguns instead of rifles precisely because they can be customised and used with less-than-lethal cartridges.
At rifle velocity whatever self-fragmentating or rubber bullet shot any someone is very likely to go trough them anyway.
Just don't go into making arguments based on fluff like personal character concepts what is silly and what isn't and expect it being taken any valid.
A personal opinion what fits is not a basis for pondering a mechanical balance between powers.
You may also want to ask for different gatling models, because as for now only this one laser gatling from Z-store weapon pack is an energy weapon. All other CO gatlings are based off totally lethal real world pretty low tech slugthrowers, including even a XIX century crank-operated one and Fabrique Nationale 7.62.
As for technology, ask comic book writers why Red Hood sometimes carries a high-tech pistol instead of high-tech gatling.
Because it simply looks better on an acrobat-type guy than BFG.
Yes, that's my character concepts. I don't really care what other people are playing or doing. I like to pretend that I'm not playing with a bunch of murdering dragon-robots.
And I'm not making arguments based on fluff, I'm stating my opinion that I think it's silly. Bigger guns are made to cause more damage or destruction, otherwise why build tanks when we have pistols? It doesn't make sense to have the smallest guns do the most damage. I really don't care that the power itself is the way it is, but if you look at it within the context of its own powerset, having two-gun mojo be the highest damage-dealing power looks stupid on its face. What exactly are you doing with those pistols that makes them so much more dangerous? Obviously it's holding them sideways that makes them more powerful, yeah? Because when you use Burst Shot, they're not doing that much damage. Or maybe the damage is tied directly to how much of a scowl you have on your face at the time. I guess maybe it's time to petition gangsta-stance for all guns, even the sniper rifle and rocket launcher, so that two-gun mojo can make sense again.
It's just logical, comic book setting or not. Doesn't matter if your character is an acrobat that looks cooler with a couple of pistols; a machine gun should be able to out-damage them.
As far as new gatling gun models, that's kind of a moot point. I've seen toy guns that look just like real guns, why can't a laser gatling be built with the same outer components as the "real bullet shooty" one? More weapon models would be great, but not a requirement for the character shooting lasers. Just turning the power colors to blue does a good enough job, just needs a different sound to go all "really real."
"It doesn't make sense to have the smallest guns do the most damage. "
Logic.
Ok.
Here's how this logic works... Logically, IRL.
A rifle bullet does less damage to tissue than a handgun bullet. That's a fact. Military hadgun bullets like 9mm or .45 ACP are actually more devastating than rounds shot from an assault rifle. They are slower and more blunt, so they don't go through human body in a clean maner, unlike a rifle bullet that can go through someone completely clean not even hitting anything important.
Except they loose their power rapidly past a few dozen meters and a guy with a rifle may hit a guy with a pistol before the handgunner can get in range.
That's why handguns are just a self-defense tool only.
It's not more damage why people are using rifles. They're used because they have longer range and more accuracy. Also because they can't be stopped by body armor as easily as are handguns.
Also because average people can hardly hit anything with a handgun unless their target is literally in a melee range. Short barrel, short line of sights, it sucks.
The distinction between why to use a rifle and why to use a handgun was never about damage.
And rifle powers do have more range in this game, so...
Maybe the only finishing touch should be AR and Gatling having some minuscule innate defense penetration, but that's about it.
handgun ammunition being more easily stopped by body armor...that might be debatable, because i'm fairly certain that pistol-caliber ammo comes in AP varieties just as much as rifle-caliber ammo does - or maybe it doesn't; i'm not really sure, because the majority of my gun knowledge comes from fallout, and that's hardly an accurate encyclopedia on guns
handgun ammunition being more easily stopped by body armor...that might be debatable, because i'm fairly certain that pistol-caliber ammo comes in AP varieties just as much as rifle-caliber ammo does - or maybe it doesn't; i'm not really sure, because the majority of my gun knowledge comes from fallout, and that's hardly an accurate encyclopedia on guns
Stock handgun ammo you can buy legally is not AP.
Steel coated, teflon coated or steel core pistol ammo goes through vests. It's also illegal for civilians in most countries and definitely not for use unless you explicitly want to kill someone. You have to load your gun on purpose with it.
A standard 9mm or .45 may be stopped by vest, unless you go with even bigger calibers or modern calibers with more velocity.
In comparison every 7.62 or 5.56 NATO or former Warsaw Pact rifle bullet goes through vests if fired too close. "Too close" is as close as below 100 meters, so very close compared to handguns.
Also, armor piercing bullets don't disintegrate on hard surfaces and produce riccochets. AT squads aren't even using them if there are bystanders nearby (Russians managed to produce "safe" AP pistol/rifle bullets used by their AT squads... they "only" had to design a new line of armaments for shooting this custom ammo, both rifles and pistols).
Rifle bullets also produce a lot of riccochets on concrete and brick walls, so they aren't very safe to use when there's anything nearby you don't want to hit.
Rifle bullets can be built to tumble upon entering the body and devastate large chunks of tissue, but then intent of using one of these is simple - not to disable, but to kill.
Also, every armor piercing bullet is a danger for anyone after your target if they're behind it.
I wasn't speaking of per-bullet damage. I said that bigger guns are made to do more damage. That's overall, not per bullet. Whether it's armor-piercing, bullet type, magazine size, accuracy, whatever.
Since we're dealing with trying to do more damage to a thing (a thing being a nebulous entity that can, for one reason or another, take lots of shots without just dying, since that's what we're doing in the game), what should do the most "DPS" in the game?
Let's say this thing is 25 feet away (so we can include most of the guns). Let's say the thing is a Mega Destroid. What's the best thing to use? A pistol? Shotgun? Submachine gun? Assault rifle? Which one is going to cause more damage to it? What about Qwyjibo? What about PSIMON? What about Grond? What makes the most sense here?
For the most part, we're not going around murdering civilians (Okay, westside is a bit of a mess in this respect) but we've got super-tough things to deal with (hence the choices above). If we were talking about real life stuff, any of these guns could possibly take out another dude, armor or not, in one shot. Shoot a vital organ or artery, you're probably done. Shoot an arm, the guy can't really attack you back unless he's gonna start kicking you like the Black Knight. These kinds of real-world situations aren't what we deal with in the game. For the type of thing you do in the game, what's the most logical thing to do? Pistols? All situations within 25 feet? Not even a shotgun to cause more damage?
In just a sense of gaming, is this what most gamers would expect? Two pistols can deal out more carnage than an assault rifle? Than a minigun? Than a rocket launcher?
I wasn't speaking of per-bullet damage. I said that bigger guns are made to do more damage. That's overall, not per bullet. Whether it's armor-piercing, bullet type, magazine size, accuracy, whatever.
There's no thing like "overal damage" in firearms.
There's only stopping power, actual damage you do to tissue and armor penetration.
The "overall damage" you are talking about is an abstract. It doesn't even exist. Can't be a basis for any comparison.
And in two or three terms, stopping power and harm done to a human... Hanguns often do better than rifles. They're just harder to use with any efficiency (having more stopping power and lethality means little if none of your bullets hits the target, after all).
At short distances rifles often fail at stopping someone only because the bullet went through the guy too clean and not causing enough shock. Unless you pepper them with a lot of bullets at once and shred them to pieces (gruesome as ****).
In just a sense of gaming, is this what most gamers would expect? Two pistols can deal out more carnage than an assault rifle? Than a minigun? Than a rocket launcher?
In a "sense of gaming", often in games focused around shooting people to bloody bits, handguns usually take more hitpoints with every bullet, but rifles have greater range and stats like armor penetration.
Unless you're asking about Doom-like antiquated shooters.
Which isn't a perfect representation, but puts both weapon classes roughly in their real world places.
You already have distinction between all rifle and pistol powers in CO. Pistols are 50ft. That's enough.
Seriously, it's all about you being upset because a guy with pistols can outperform your character with a gatling. Which supposedly should be impossible because reasons and pistol powers should be taken only for the theme.
This can be reverted very easily: the Gatling Gun is not an unplayable power and it works, so why can't you be happy with using it for the theme?
It's just a whine at this point: "it's too strong because it hurts my character theme".
2GM was even moved to a higher tier to represent its bigger utility, so the balance was served.
Oh, also with regards to theme:
... my characters using it can also have mechassassin arms and invisible weapon models, so theme-wise they may be using dual autocannon gauntlets. Works for me.
There's no thing like "overal damage" in firearms.
There's only stopping power, actual damage you do to tissue and armor penetration.
The "overall damage" you are talking about is an abstract. It doesn't even exist. Can't be a basis for any comparison.
And in two or three terms, stopping power and harm done to a human... Hanguns often do better than rifles. They're just harder to use with any efficiency (having more stopping power and lethality means little if none of your bullets hits the target, after all).
At short distances rifles often fail at stopping someone only because the bullet went through the guy too clean and not causing enough shock. Unless you pepper them with a lot of bullets at once and shred them to pieces (gruesome as ****).
You're talking about a lot of stuff we don't deal with in-game. Like I already said, in real life we don't deal with things we have to shoot the crap out of several times, sometimes for over five minutes while 30 other people do the same. You're dodging the actual issue; what works best against a dude you have to shoot a thousand times before he dies.
We're dealing more with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC8jnSaCqxY than we are with shooting a guy once and watching him die. You just can't do that with everything in the game.
In a "sense of gaming", often in games focused around shooting people to bloody bits, handguns usually take more hitpoints with every bullet, but rifles have greater range and stats like armor penetration.
Unless you're asking about Doom-like antiquated shooters.
Which isn't a perfect representation, but puts both weapon classes roughly in their real world places.
You already have distinction between all rifle and pistol powers in CO. Pistols are 50ft. That's enough.
Seriously, it's all about you being upset because a guy with pistols can outperform your character with a gatling. Which supposedly should be impossible because reasons and pistol powers should be taken only for the theme.
This can be reverted very easily: the Gatling Gun is not an unplayable power and it works, so why can't you be happy with using it for the theme?
It's just a whine at this point: "it's too strong because it hurts my character theme".
2GM was even moved to a higher tier to represent its bigger utility, so the balance was served.
Oh, also with regards to theme:
... my characters using it can also have mechassassin arms and invisible weapon models, so theme-wise they may be using dual autocannon gauntlets. Works for me.
Oh god, don't do that. You have no idea what my intentions are. I have a lot more characters that use two-gun mojo than the ones that use minigun. I have like two characters that use minigun, probably a dozen that use two-gun mojo. It's absolutely not about personal preference. I'm not upset about this, and it doesn't hurt any of my characters' themes - like I said a million times already, I'm absolutely fine with this change; mechanically it makes sense what they did to it. I just think it's silly because they weren't looking at the power from a point of logic.
Honestly, I could do the same thing and claim that you're clearly not even halfway reading what I'm saying just because you're so attached to two-gun mojo that you want it to be the best power.
We're dealing witch characters shooting bullets at anyone. Which is an overkill to do to a normal person, and for ones like supervillains who are actually bulletproof, like Grond, "logically" would be of no use anyway whether you hit them with a single bullet, or a rain of it...
And as I said before, you want approaching things from a logical standpoint, stop carrying a gatling. They're ridiculous. If you apply any kind of comic book phlebotium to justify one firearm, then it can be applied to any.
Something as ridiculous like a .50 AE machine pistol also could be built and carried by a superpowered individual despite being absolutely impossible to control IRL (and no joke, Red Hood carries dual Desert Eagles, that's as ridiculous as it gets, in the same ballpark with handheld gatlings).
Mechanically the obnoxiously high cost-per-tick bothers me because its too high by far, and munitions has always been a set about energy efficiency and sustained crits.
Gut the energy hike. Not even completely, just.. halfway between old and new. See where it goes.
Oh, and about the ammo, my Munitions heavy-gunner, Tempest, is a teleporter who has the power to tele-procure things.. and is tele-portalling bullets into the minigun as she fires.
Kinda like they did in Borderlands. The characters all had some storage in which they kept their guns. They would just tap the teleporter thingy on their thigh and they'd have the gun. Also, the Tediore guns. Those were fun.
We're dealing witch characters shooting bullets at anyone. Which is an overkill to do to a normal person, and for ones like supervillains who are actually bulletproof, like Grond, "logically" would be of no use anyway whether you hit them with a single bullet, or a rain of it...
Right, and when we fire at "anyone" they die real quick anyway. Couple shots from a pistol, quick burst from a gatling gun, a dude dies. That's great. Grond, however, is not bulletproof in this game. He takes damage. So does Qwyjibo, Teleiosaurus, all of them. So, logically, yeah you'd want to fire more bullets quicker to do more damage.
And as I said before, you want approaching things from a logical standpoint, stop carrying a gatling. They're ridiculous. If you apply any kind of comic book phlebotium to justify one firearm, then it can be applied to any.
Something as ridiculous like a .50 AE machine pistol also could be built and carried by a superpowered individual despite being absolutely impossible to control IRL (and no joke, Red Hood carries dual Desert Eagles, that's as ridiculous as it gets, in the same ballpark with handheld gatlings).
Again, we're not talking about the real world here. We're talking about dudes that can pick up and throw tanks. These same dudes could handle a gatling gun, I'm sure.
And yes, exactly. Any phlebotinum you can apply to pistols to make them more powerful than a gatling gun, why can't I apply the same stuff to the gatling gun to make it more powerful than a nuclear warhead?
Yeah, Red Hood might be ridiculous with a couple Desert Eagles, but he's not a superhuman, is he?
I'll be sure to put on my big-boy mature cap on whenever I talk to you henceforth. Pip, pip!
That'd be a nice change.
Me personally, I'm used to people only throwing around insults and telling people to shut up when they're upset. Sure, there are people who just do that all the time, but I don't like to assume that people are that type of person and prefer to just let them out themselves.
I'm not really sure what you thought I was doing in my post where I talked about why I think they went the way they did with 2GunMojo, but from your reaction I think you're mistaken.
I agree. I mean, if we're going to complain about things that don't make sense, the whole "where's all this ammo" coming from issue would be the place to start, not "this gun does more damage than that gun". For me it's easy: Those pistols are big badass 50 caliber beast guns, and the fact that you're firing two of them is the reason they do the most damage - but it's also the reason their damage becomes spread out with multiple targets. That gatling gun is firing smaller rounds( as evidenced by all those tiny numbers), but because of its dramatically higher rate of fire its spraying a larger number of targets much more effectively. However, it's not as effective against a single target cause: tiny bullets spraying all over, just not as effective as a pair of big bullets. Big bullet better, hit more harder - comic book logic.
And remember that this is all in the world of comic book logic, where gatling gun and assault rifle bullets will just ping ping ping off the Bulk's chest, but that big meaty 50 caliber hand cannon will make his head fly back like he's just been punched by the Mighty Bork. It's like movie logic... bunch of bums with rifles and smgs are shooting like crazy and doing nothing... in comes gatling man and sprays down an entire platoon with a hand held gatling gun that shoots about a thousand rounds that don't appear to actually exist, and then cool guy mchandcannon walks up and blows people back fifty feet with his big dumb gun that people in real life only use to shoot bears and rhinos. And then someone flies a city block cause of a shotgun.
Me personally, I'm used to people only throwing around insults and telling people to shut up when they're upset. Sure, there are people who just do that all the time, but I don't like to assume that people are that type of person and prefer to just let them out themselves.
I've seen the way you talk in Conquer HQ, this high-class all-business persona you're trying to put on isn't fooling me, sorry.
And seriously, taking "dork" as an insult, that's funny. I'll be sure not to use the words "weirdo" and "silly goose" around you so that I don't offend your delicate sensibilities any further.
I agree. I mean, if we're going to complain about things that don't make sense, the whole "where's all this ammo" coming from issue would be the place to start, not "this gun does more damage than that gun". For me it's easy: Those pistols are big badass 50 caliber beast guns, and the fact that you're firing two of them is the reason they do the most damage - but it's also the reason their damage becomes spread out with multiple targets. That gatling gun is firing smaller rounds( as evidenced by all those tiny numbers), but because of its dramatically higher rate of fire its spraying a larger number of targets much more effectively. However, it's not as effective against a single target cause: tiny bullets spraying all over, just not as effective as a pair of big bullets. Big bullet better, hit more harder - comic book logic.
And remember that this is all in the world of comic book logic, where gatling gun and assault rifle bullets will just ping ping ping off the Bulk's chest, but that big meaty 50 caliber hand cannon will make his head fly back like he's just been punched by the Mighty Bork. It's like movie logic... bunch of bums with rifles and smgs are shooting like crazy and doing nothing... in comes gatling man and sprays down an entire platoon with a hand held gatling gun that shoots about a thousand rounds that don't appear to actually exist, and then cool guy mchandcannon walks up and blows people back fifty feet with his big dumb gun that people in real life only use to shoot bears and rhinos. And then someone flies a city block cause of a shotgun.
Let's look at things that make sense. Firing a 50 caliber pistol one-handed is not quick or easy. Firing two of them? Good luck hitting anything and enjoy your new nose job. But hey, we're talking about super heroes, so okay.
Your one big bad bullet does cause a lot of damage. Oh wait you got TWO guns? That's a lot of damage! A lot a lot! You can fire what, 8 shots a second, maybe? Some miniguns can fire around 100 rounds per second. They don't need to be big.
Look at that video above. That's a "single target." How long do you think it would take to split that tree in half with your two big ol' scary guns? A few hours, maybe a couple of days.
But okay, bigger bullets mean more damage over time, every time. Horf.
Yeah, Red Hood might be ridiculous with a couple Desert Eagles, but he's not a superhuman, is he?
You missed the point here.
.50 AE is a magnum bullet for people who really hate their wrists and it can go through an engine block. In a very unrealistic event someone carries two full auto pistols chambered to one of these effect will be comparable to cutting a tree with a gatling.
Now prove me that it's illogical in comic books that anyone tries dual pistols with magnum cartridges.
That's illogical to go dual pistol to begin with, the very premise of using it for anything more than pray'n'spray or trick shooting is bananas.
Except this game isn't exactly based on logic.
You have problems with using .50 for 2GM?
Again, stop carrying a gatling gun ingame, then. That's exactly the same ballpark of impossible. A human being wouldn't be any more capable of handling two magnum pistols with rapid fire than to carry a stationary machine gun and its recoil.
Or abandon your double standards.
"Oh, but I carry an impossible technology magical gatling."
"Oh, but I carry a pair of impossible technology magical magnums."
Same to me.
PS - gatlings even IRL aren't used against anything but personnel and light materiel, unless they're loaded with depleted uranium rounds. On a really armored vehicles "regular" rifle bullets give only a lot of rapid fire plink unless the gunner can aim for wheels or periscopes.
In fact, one of instructions for cleaning a friendly tank from the same formation when the enemy infantry is crawling over it is... Fire your machine gun at it. Won't harm the crew inside, but riccochettes will take care of buggers trying to get inside.
Trees aren't exactly bulletproof. They just don't have internal organs to fall dead when shot.
I don't have problems with rocket launchers doing less damage than pistols, because it's a splash explosion and I can kill an entire group of mobs in a single shot with it. I can also do it at max range before they're aggroed. No dealing with catching everyone in this AoE cylinder, just fire and forget.
2GM is too high tier for a dual pistols power?
Lead Tempest is there since forever and breaks "logic" even more.
so what i've taken away from the last few back-and-forth between robo-guy and ill-tempered 'moderator' is...2GM dealing more damage than gatling gun is silly and gatling gun should be doing more? because if so, i'll support that - my gatling gun sucks even with a long string of crits
so what i've taken away from the last few back-and-forth between robo-guy and ill-tempered 'moderator' is...2GM dealing more damage than gatling gun is silly and gatling gun should be doing more? because if so, i'll support that - my gatling gun sucks even with a long string of crits
That's a CO problem, full stop. Low tier powers not being damage capped, so their damage gets extended into the stratosphere everytime there's a new gear set realeased, and higher tier powers being insufficiently awe-inspiring in comparison.
Just because I said it's silly that two little pistols do more damage than a Gatling gun. Some people seem to think that I'm saying that because I want the powers changed/nerfed/whatever, despite the fact I said I'm fine with the changes and use two gun mojo a lot more.
And man, people have gotten really sensitive if they think anything I said in this thread is ill-tempered.
@meeda: You keep going back to real-world stuff to justify why things should work and what shouldn't. We're not dealing with any of that here.
There's no double standards in my thinking. When I mentioned 50 caliber pistols, in so many words I said it was as dumb as using a Gatling gun unless it's being used by a superhuman that could handle the recoil. The only reason you think there's a double standard is because you keep going back to real-world implications. Personally, I wouldn't play a concept character that was not superpowered who used dual 50 caliber pistols or Gatling guns. It's as ridiculous as you make it sound.
Regarding the tree, agaaaaaain, I'm using that tree as a real-world example of a thing that can take a ton of damage before "dying", like we do in the game. It seems impossible to get you to understand that Clarence has no real-world counterpart, and simply shooting him once in a vital organ isn't going to kill him or incapacitate him. This is where "overall damage or destruction" matters. There's no "aiming at the treads" or any of that stuff. We're fighting robots, constructs, monsters, super villains, magical creatures, demons. Show me in the real world how all of these can be taken out with one shot of a pistol, and I'll abandon my position.
Let's look at things that make sense. Firing a 50 caliber pistol one-handed is not quick or easy. Firing two of them? Good luck hitting anything and enjoy your new nose job. But hey, we're talking about super heroes, so okay.
So... now you're saying things and then immediately explaining why they're irrelevant? Well shoot, I'll just let you have this conversation with yourself then
Just because I said it's silly that two little pistols do more damage than a Gatling gun. Some people seem to think that I'm saying that because I want the powers changed/nerfed/whatever, despite the fact I said I'm fine with the changes and use two gun mojo a lot more.
Or maybe you assumed that that's what those people were saying, even though they never actually said that, and you never bothered to ask and just ran at full speed with your assumption.. and then said a bunch of weird stuff about poo o3o
Let's look at things that make sense. Firing a 50 caliber pistol one-handed is not quick or easy. Firing two of them? Good luck hitting anything and enjoy your new nose job. But hey, we're talking about super heroes, so okay.
So... now you're saying things and then immediately explaining why they're irrelevant? Well shoot, I'll just let you have this conversation with yourself then
Just because I said it's silly that two little pistols do more damage than a Gatling gun. Some people seem to think that I'm saying that because I want the powers changed/nerfed/whatever, despite the fact I said I'm fine with the changes and use two gun mojo a lot more.
Or maybe you assumed that that's what those people were saying, even though they never actually said that, and you never bothered to ask and just ran at full speed with your assumption.. and then said a bunch of weird stuff about poo o3o
A: Wrong again. I'm not explaining why it's irrelevant, saying that were talking about superheroes was VALIDATING it. As in, we're talking about superheroes, so your two 50 caliber pistols could be dual-wielded by someone with enough strength or some kind of super tech. It's okay, everyone makes mistakes.
B: Wrong again again. Meeda did actually say exactly that. And why do you keep talking about me saying a bunch of stuff about poo? I said poo once in the same type of context that people say s**t all the time. When someone says "oh s**t!" around you, do you immediately start asking them why they're saying weird things about poo? You're so dense.
A: Wrong again. I'm not explaining why it's irrelevant, saying that were talking about superheroes was VALIDATING it. As in, we're talking about superheroes, so your two 50 caliber pistols could be dual-wielded by someone with enough strength or some kind of super tech. It's okay, everyone makes mistakes.
B: Wrong again again. Meeda did actually say exactly that. And why do you keep talking about me saying a bunch of stuff about poo? I said poo once in the same type of context that people say s**t all the time. When someone says "oh s**t!" around you, do you immediately start asking them why they're saying weird things about poo? You're so dense.
So, you don't like the idea that someone would be claiming that you made any sort of statement about wanting 2GM to be changed?
I would have rather Two Gun Mojo go back to how it was pre-buff
Btw I went through and checked Meed's posts... he never explicitly stated that he felt you were expressing that you wanted 2GM to be nerfed/changed/whatever( the best I could find was him reiterating what you've stated repeatedly, that you feel the damage on 2GM is too high relative to other munitions weapons and that that threatens the "theme" of munitions weapons )... tho, if he had, he would have grounds to make that sort of statement.
So yeah... no need to be defensive on that front. You maybe wanna calm down a little bit now? o3o
As for you validating these things and that... your message is a bit scattered. On the one hand you say that it doesn't make sense that assault rifles and gattling guns do less dps than pistols... but then you also start talking about super strength, and special bullets, and magic or whatever else it was that you brought up. Then you also started talking about player expectation. At some points you also said that it doesn't need to be realistic ( mainly when challenged with the idea that gattling guns generally don't work well as hand held weapons with no obvious method of holdings hundreds of bullets ) and that all sorts of comic book logic can be applied to explain away any sort of loophole regarding the reality of the use of these weapons.
At this point I'm not actually sure where you stand... I mean, you said you think it's silly that pistols do more dps... but you've given a lot of reasons why it's not silly ( and again, Meed's real world info was very enlightening on the subject ). So... I'm starting to wonder why you're fighting for this idea so hard... considering you're also fighting against it pretty strongly.
Btw I went through and checked Meed's posts... he never explicitly stated that he felt you were expressing that you wanted 2GM to be nerfed/changed/whatever( the best I could find was him reiterating what you've stated repeatedly, that you feel the damage on 2GM is too high relative to other munitions weapons and that that threatens the "theme" of munitions weapons )... tho, if he had, he would have grounds to make that sort of statement.
Seriously, it's all about you being upset because a guy with pistols can outperform your character with a gatling. Which supposedly should be impossible because reasons and pistol powers should be taken only for the theme.
It's pretty clear that he thinks I'm arguing against this change (because I'm so "upset" about it, right, despite saying I'm fine with it a million times) because I think it's overpowered, otherwise he wouldn't be accusing me of having an ulterior motive. If I was upset about this change, then what would be the point of me arguing against its damage? The point would be to either buff gatling gun on nerf two-gun. Cripes, for someone who reads way too much into my posts and comes up with ridiculous accusations, you sure didn't dig deep into that quote. Wonder why?
So yeah... no need to be defensive on that front. You maybe wanna calm down a little bit now? o3o
Defending against accusations is not being defensive, it's just not accepting things that aren't true.
Also, someone must have installed spy cams in my house, because everyone can clearly tell that I'm totally angry and punching words into my keyboard with white-knuckled fists, right? This is the oldest trick in the troll book, accusing people of being angry just to try to get some high ground or rile them up. Get an update, it's not working.
As for you validating these things and that... your message is a bit scattered. On the one hand you say that it doesn't make sense that assault rifles and gattling guns do less dps than pistols... but then you also start talking about super strength, and special bullets, and magic or whatever else it was that you brought up. Then you also started talking about player expectation. At some points you also said that it doesn't need to be realistic ( mainly when challenged with the idea that gattling guns generally don't work well as hand held weapons with no obvious method of holdings hundreds of bullets ) and that all sorts of comic book logic can be applied to explain away any sort of loophole regarding the reality of the use of these weapons.
At this point I'm not actually sure where you stand... I mean, you said you think it's silly that pistols do more dps... but you've given a lot of reasons why it's not silly ( and again, Meed's real world info was very enlightening on the subject ). So... I'm starting to wonder why you're fighting for this idea so hard... considering you're also fighting against it pretty strongly.
It's simple. You said "my character just has two big 'ol 50 cals!" This in itself is a silly thing to say, unless you have some kind of explanation as to why your character can do this. That's why I dismissed my own argument against your character doing so. Because we're talking superheroes. That's me being objective.
Right, so this is all conceptual stuff to make sense of what's going on in the game world. We can come up with reasons why pistols are doing as much DPS as they do. But for every single "maybe they do this much damage because X" I'm saying, "well, cool, but why can't that be applied to a larger weapon?" Right? "My Pistol shoots 50 caliber bullets with a magic spell cast on it to reduce the recoil to almost nothing!" Okay, so why can't my 50 caliber assault rifle have this same magic spell that makes it super-ultra-damaging and super-ultra-manageable? Why can't the same be done to my 50 caliber minigun? Same caliber bullet, but I can shoot like four times the amount of bullets that your pistols can.
See? Whatever we can come up with that can make your dual pistols so powerful, the same could be done to a much larger weapon.
If it seems like I'm ping-ponging between several different opinions is because I'm open to opinions that can change my stance on something. It's just on the overall issue of this change, it doesn't make sense to me, because bigger gun with more bullets and higher capacity magazines should, in many cases, mean a lot more damage.
So, where do I stand?
The change was okay. It doesn't seem logical to me. I would have preferred two-gun to have been reverted pre-buff, but it's not a big deal. So, The change was okay.
That's why I said it was "silly" and not OH MY GOD I'M SO ANGRY AT THIS BULLS**T CHANGE RAAAAAAARRRR!!!
Just because certain munitions powers conveniently are based on something in reality doesn't mean that certain "reality-logic" has to actually be a factor when it comes to the balancing process. It has to be done within the context of the game's mechanics and how certain powers correlate with each other, typically within the set.
For me it boils down to 2GM having been a strictly single-target attack before the change, and it made sense for me that it was given a significantly higher damage output than AoE munitions attacks simply due to the fact that 2GM wasn't AoE. This is a reason why I never strictly relied on 2GM and often used SMG for the groups.
So 2GM has lost its penetrating damage and has damage penalty according to group size just to make it into yet another munitions AoE. Can't really say I see the point of that change but eh, what's done is done.
A: No, I don't feel silly because while it seems very off to me that it does so much damage compared to other powers in the set, it's just cosmetic. I don't see anything actually broken about it, and it's a power I've liked since launch, so I'm happy it's where it's at.
B: If I said you're literally a Smurf, and you said you're not, would you say you're being defensive about it? Usually when people talk about someone being defensive, they mean they're emotionally overreacting, not simply "defending against untrue accusations". If you can't tell the difference between one and the other, that's not my problem.
B: If I said you're literally a Smurf, and you said you're not, would you say you're being defensive about it? Usually when people talk about someone being defensive, they mean they're emotionally overreacting, not simply "defending against untrue accusations". If you can't tell the difference between one and the other, that's not my problem.
So now you're giving bad analogies? I thought you didn't like those.
Hey look, it's an argument just for the sake of having an argument. My guns shoot magic bullets. Pewpew. It is a little know magical fact that magical bullets are most potent when fired from a pair of humongous handguns. Go ahead look it up, I'll wait.
What you might not realize however is that all our guns are shooting magical bullets, that's why you never see anyone needing to reload them.
Comments
You on the other hand seem to have it in your head that you represent some sort of majority. Are you a yardstick?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Logic is not dispensed here, only cool factor.
In any realistic situation except for concealed carry a rifle always beats a handgun, but the game isn't exactly realistic to begin with.
At least CO gatlings still are useful. FO4 gatlings are a joke.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Edit: I misread the thing.
Anyhow, what part of my posts did you gather that I was upset about anything? I went out of my way to explain why they did what they did, and said the only part I didn't like was that little pistols do more damage than a gatling gun, because it's just silly. None of that is "upset" about anything.
Also, the whole "poo" thing was me censoring myself. If you need help with that, the sentence was "that crap is friggin' funny" but a little more adult-like. I didn't know the forums had given up on the word filter.
Also also, way to take like seven paragraphs and reducing it all to the fact that I said "poo" "a bunch" (you know, once, in a part that really didn't have context).
I'll be sure to put on my big-boy mature cap on whenever I talk to you henceforth. Pip, pip!
Logic definitely wasn't employed here, it was just the developers trying to justify the attack's damage versus adjusting the damage to its cost for the sake of whiny players.
The point about dual guns is to play John Woo movie.
I prefer the way it was handled instead of bringing 2GM down to its old levels. This way everyone can stick with their favorite visuals.
CO long time ago moved past having restricted weapon proggression for munitions. More and more weapon models are interchargeable for powers that before had more strict handgun/shotgun/rifle costume categories.
Personally I find CO gatling very uncool looking, if this power had a costume and animation choice where I can go John Rambo with hand-held M60 or PK... I'd consider using it.
Running around with big clunky Minigun or Arden with no visible backpack ammunition storage or power source for electrical motor... Doesn't cut it for me at all.
How this weapon is even supposed to work without all the rest of vehicle-mounted peripherals it needs to operate?
And it just happends that only one of available weapon models for gatling gun power is not a stationary chaingun with need for large external feeding and electric power... or hand operated crank. So for me it looks far too silly to ever consider its use.
Plus, to me a munition user is someone not-superpowered. A gatling gun is far too heavy and has far too much recoil to be carried by a baseline human being.
and who says a munitions user isn't going to be superpowered? supersoldiers will still use guns - they're not going to ditch them just because they got hulked up on serum
The guy who has no power to carry a gatling everywhere.
So staying within real comic archetypes and not caring about less classic concepts - gatling has zero place on my characters.
I find it a double standard when someone's complaining about pistols equalling gatlings being silly, but sees nothing silly in a disfunctional weapon (a stationary machine gun without all this mounting and ammo boxes that usually go with vehicles is about as threatening as trying to pummel someone to death with a M4 lower receiver only).
It's equally silly, full stop.
By that same logic though, certain pistols could have more power than your standard minigun, by way of super-tech or alien technology; the possibilities are endless.
But then still, why couldn't that technology be used on other types of guns? Any larger gun should be able to put out a lot more power behind each bullet, or just by throwing hundreds of rounds in a few seconds, instead of dozens, end up causing more damage than a smaller gun.
Also, I'm not just talking about the minigun; it's just the most extreme comparison. It's silly that pistols do more damage than a point-blank shotgun or any sort of assault rifle. Even within comic-book-logic.
Oh, another thing I forgot to mention. I don't play murderers, so within the concepts of my characters, the guns they use don't fire lethal bullets. Generally they'd be shooting some sort of non-lethal laser type of thing, which would at least help with the crazy amount of recoil you'd be dealing with on a standard minigun. Super-tech gyros or some such nonsense to counter the barrel spin, junk like that (if I HAD to explain it; I'm a firm believer of not having to explain away all the nuances of how everything works in comics).
I think that's justifiable, though. The additional close range damage should be down to the hero's skill - maybe it's rate of fire, or effective targeting - but they should be more effective at certain distances than an average grunt with a pistol, M16 or AK-47. However that effect should fall off quite quickly; and had it been done logically, 2GM would have been made into a melee range single target DPS power, rather like single Blade, with all the risk that entails.
Just don't go into making arguments based on fluff like personal character concepts what is silly and what isn't and expect it being taken any valid.
A personal opinion what fits is not a basis for pondering a mechanical balance between powers.
You may also want to ask for different gatling models, because as for now only this one laser gatling from Z-store weapon pack is an energy weapon. All other CO gatlings are based off totally lethal real world pretty low tech slugthrowers, including even a XIX century crank-operated one and Fabrique Nationale 7.62.
As for technology, ask comic book writers why Red Hood sometimes carries a high-tech pistol instead of high-tech gatling.
Because it simply looks better on an acrobat-type guy than BFG.
(*as non-lethal as any projectile fired at hundreds of yards per second can ever get)
Machine guns are chambered with 5.56 or 7.62 rifle rounds and people rarely care about producing this kind of rounds for military.
It makes an awful lof of sense for a street level vigilante who's not a Bruce Wayne with secret access to their own weapon factories to carry handguns instead of rifles precisely because they can be customised and used with less-than-lethal cartridges.
At rifle velocity whatever self-fragmentating or rubber bullet shot any someone is very likely to go trough them anyway.
And I'm not making arguments based on fluff, I'm stating my opinion that I think it's silly. Bigger guns are made to cause more damage or destruction, otherwise why build tanks when we have pistols? It doesn't make sense to have the smallest guns do the most damage. I really don't care that the power itself is the way it is, but if you look at it within the context of its own powerset, having two-gun mojo be the highest damage-dealing power looks stupid on its face. What exactly are you doing with those pistols that makes them so much more dangerous? Obviously it's holding them sideways that makes them more powerful, yeah? Because when you use Burst Shot, they're not doing that much damage. Or maybe the damage is tied directly to how much of a scowl you have on your face at the time. I guess maybe it's time to petition gangsta-stance for all guns, even the sniper rifle and rocket launcher, so that two-gun mojo can make sense again.
It's just logical, comic book setting or not. Doesn't matter if your character is an acrobat that looks cooler with a couple of pistols; a machine gun should be able to out-damage them.
As far as new gatling gun models, that's kind of a moot point. I've seen toy guns that look just like real guns, why can't a laser gatling be built with the same outer components as the "real bullet shooty" one? More weapon models would be great, but not a requirement for the character shooting lasers. Just turning the power colors to blue does a good enough job, just needs a different sound to go all "really real."
Logic.
Ok.
Here's how this logic works... Logically, IRL.
A rifle bullet does less damage to tissue than a handgun bullet. That's a fact. Military hadgun bullets like 9mm or .45 ACP are actually more devastating than rounds shot from an assault rifle. They are slower and more blunt, so they don't go through human body in a clean maner, unlike a rifle bullet that can go through someone completely clean not even hitting anything important.
Except they loose their power rapidly past a few dozen meters and a guy with a rifle may hit a guy with a pistol before the handgunner can get in range.
That's why handguns are just a self-defense tool only.
It's not more damage why people are using rifles. They're used because they have longer range and more accuracy. Also because they can't be stopped by body armor as easily as are handguns.
Also because average people can hardly hit anything with a handgun unless their target is literally in a melee range. Short barrel, short line of sights, it sucks.
The distinction between why to use a rifle and why to use a handgun was never about damage.
And rifle powers do have more range in this game, so...
Maybe the only finishing touch should be AR and Gatling having some minuscule innate defense penetration, but that's about it.
Stock handgun ammo you can buy legally is not AP.
Steel coated, teflon coated or steel core pistol ammo goes through vests. It's also illegal for civilians in most countries and definitely not for use unless you explicitly want to kill someone. You have to load your gun on purpose with it.
A standard 9mm or .45 may be stopped by vest, unless you go with even bigger calibers or modern calibers with more velocity.
In comparison every 7.62 or 5.56 NATO or former Warsaw Pact rifle bullet goes through vests if fired too close. "Too close" is as close as below 100 meters, so very close compared to handguns.
Also, armor piercing bullets don't disintegrate on hard surfaces and produce riccochets. AT squads aren't even using them if there are bystanders nearby (Russians managed to produce "safe" AP pistol/rifle bullets used by their AT squads... they "only" had to design a new line of armaments for shooting this custom ammo, both rifles and pistols).
Rifle bullets also produce a lot of riccochets on concrete and brick walls, so they aren't very safe to use when there's anything nearby you don't want to hit.
Rifle bullets can be built to tumble upon entering the body and devastate large chunks of tissue, but then intent of using one of these is simple - not to disable, but to kill.
Also, every armor piercing bullet is a danger for anyone after your target if they're behind it.
Since we're dealing with trying to do more damage to a thing (a thing being a nebulous entity that can, for one reason or another, take lots of shots without just dying, since that's what we're doing in the game), what should do the most "DPS" in the game?
Let's say this thing is 25 feet away (so we can include most of the guns). Let's say the thing is a Mega Destroid. What's the best thing to use? A pistol? Shotgun? Submachine gun? Assault rifle? Which one is going to cause more damage to it? What about Qwyjibo? What about PSIMON? What about Grond? What makes the most sense here?
For the most part, we're not going around murdering civilians (Okay, westside is a bit of a mess in this respect) but we've got super-tough things to deal with (hence the choices above). If we were talking about real life stuff, any of these guns could possibly take out another dude, armor or not, in one shot. Shoot a vital organ or artery, you're probably done. Shoot an arm, the guy can't really attack you back unless he's gonna start kicking you like the Black Knight. These kinds of real-world situations aren't what we deal with in the game. For the type of thing you do in the game, what's the most logical thing to do? Pistols? All situations within 25 feet? Not even a shotgun to cause more damage?
In just a sense of gaming, is this what most gamers would expect? Two pistols can deal out more carnage than an assault rifle? Than a minigun? Than a rocket launcher?
There's only stopping power, actual damage you do to tissue and armor penetration.
The "overall damage" you are talking about is an abstract. It doesn't even exist. Can't be a basis for any comparison.
And in two or three terms, stopping power and harm done to a human... Hanguns often do better than rifles. They're just harder to use with any efficiency (having more stopping power and lethality means little if none of your bullets hits the target, after all).
At short distances rifles often fail at stopping someone only because the bullet went through the guy too clean and not causing enough shock. Unless you pepper them with a lot of bullets at once and shred them to pieces (gruesome as ****).
In a "sense of gaming", often in games focused around shooting people to bloody bits, handguns usually take more hitpoints with every bullet, but rifles have greater range and stats like armor penetration.
Unless you're asking about Doom-like antiquated shooters.
Which isn't a perfect representation, but puts both weapon classes roughly in their real world places.
You already have distinction between all rifle and pistol powers in CO. Pistols are 50ft. That's enough.
Seriously, it's all about you being upset because a guy with pistols can outperform your character with a gatling. Which supposedly should be impossible because reasons and pistol powers should be taken only for the theme.
This can be reverted very easily: the Gatling Gun is not an unplayable power and it works, so why can't you be happy with using it for the theme?
It's just a whine at this point: "it's too strong because it hurts my character theme".
2GM was even moved to a higher tier to represent its bigger utility, so the balance was served.
Oh, also with regards to theme:
... my characters using it can also have mechassassin arms and invisible weapon models, so theme-wise they may be using dual autocannon gauntlets. Works for me.
We're dealing more with this:
Honestly, I could do the same thing and claim that you're clearly not even halfway reading what I'm saying just because you're so attached to two-gun mojo that you want it to be the best power.
And as I said before, you want approaching things from a logical standpoint, stop carrying a gatling. They're ridiculous. If you apply any kind of comic book phlebotium to justify one firearm, then it can be applied to any.
Something as ridiculous like a .50 AE machine pistol also could be built and carried by a superpowered individual despite being absolutely impossible to control IRL (and no joke, Red Hood carries dual Desert Eagles, that's as ridiculous as it gets, in the same ballpark with handheld gatlings).
And yes, exactly. Any phlebotinum you can apply to pistols to make them more powerful than a gatling gun, why can't I apply the same stuff to the gatling gun to make it more powerful than a nuclear warhead?
Yeah, Red Hood might be ridiculous with a couple Desert Eagles, but he's not a superhuman, is he?
Me personally, I'm used to people only throwing around insults and telling people to shut up when they're upset. Sure, there are people who just do that all the time, but I don't like to assume that people are that type of person and prefer to just let them out themselves.
I'm not really sure what you thought I was doing in my post where I talked about why I think they went the way they did with 2GunMojo, but from your reaction I think you're mistaken.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
And remember that this is all in the world of comic book logic, where gatling gun and assault rifle bullets will just ping ping ping off the Bulk's chest, but that big meaty 50 caliber hand cannon will make his head fly back like he's just been punched by the Mighty Bork. It's like movie logic... bunch of bums with rifles and smgs are shooting like crazy and doing nothing... in comes gatling man and sprays down an entire platoon with a hand held gatling gun that shoots about a thousand rounds that don't appear to actually exist, and then cool guy mchandcannon walks up and blows people back fifty feet with his big dumb gun that people in real life only use to shoot bears and rhinos. And then someone flies a city block cause of a shotgun.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
And seriously, taking "dork" as an insult, that's funny. I'll be sure not to use the words "weirdo" and "silly goose" around you so that I don't offend your delicate sensibilities any further. Let's look at things that make sense. Firing a 50 caliber pistol one-handed is not quick or easy. Firing two of them? Good luck hitting anything and enjoy your new nose job. But hey, we're talking about super heroes, so okay.
Your one big bad bullet does cause a lot of damage. Oh wait you got TWO guns? That's a lot of damage! A lot a lot! You can fire what, 8 shots a second, maybe? Some miniguns can fire around 100 rounds per second. They don't need to be big.
Look at that video above. That's a "single target." How long do you think it would take to split that tree in half with your two big ol' scary guns? A few hours, maybe a couple of days.
But okay, bigger bullets mean more damage over time, every time. Horf.
.50 AE is a magnum bullet for people who really hate their wrists and it can go through an engine block. In a very unrealistic event someone carries two full auto pistols chambered to one of these effect will be comparable to cutting a tree with a gatling.
Now prove me that it's illogical in comic books that anyone tries dual pistols with magnum cartridges.
That's illogical to go dual pistol to begin with, the very premise of using it for anything more than pray'n'spray or trick shooting is bananas.
Except this game isn't exactly based on logic.
You have problems with using .50 for 2GM?
Again, stop carrying a gatling gun ingame, then. That's exactly the same ballpark of impossible. A human being wouldn't be any more capable of handling two magnum pistols with rapid fire than to carry a stationary machine gun and its recoil.
Or abandon your double standards.
"Oh, but I carry an impossible technology magical gatling."
"Oh, but I carry a pair of impossible technology magical magnums."
Same to me.
PS - gatlings even IRL aren't used against anything but personnel and light materiel, unless they're loaded with depleted uranium rounds. On a really armored vehicles "regular" rifle bullets give only a lot of rapid fire plink unless the gunner can aim for wheels or periscopes.
In fact, one of instructions for cleaning a friendly tank from the same formation when the enemy infantry is crawling over it is... Fire your machine gun at it. Won't harm the crew inside, but riccochettes will take care of buggers trying to get inside.
Trees aren't exactly bulletproof. They just don't have internal organs to fall dead when shot.
I don't have problems with rocket launchers doing less damage than pistols, because it's a splash explosion and I can kill an entire group of mobs in a single shot with it. I can also do it at max range before they're aggroed. No dealing with catching everyone in this AoE cylinder, just fire and forget.
2GM is too high tier for a dual pistols power?
Lead Tempest is there since forever and breaks "logic" even more.
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42 40s, LTSer.
And man, people have gotten really sensitive if they think anything I said in this thread is ill-tempered.
@meeda: You keep going back to real-world stuff to justify why things should work and what shouldn't. We're not dealing with any of that here.
There's no double standards in my thinking. When I mentioned 50 caliber pistols, in so many words I said it was as dumb as using a Gatling gun unless it's being used by a superhuman that could handle the recoil. The only reason you think there's a double standard is because you keep going back to real-world implications. Personally, I wouldn't play a concept character that was not superpowered who used dual 50 caliber pistols or Gatling guns. It's as ridiculous as you make it sound.
Regarding the tree, agaaaaaain, I'm using that tree as a real-world example of a thing that can take a ton of damage before "dying", like we do in the game. It seems impossible to get you to understand that Clarence has no real-world counterpart, and simply shooting him once in a vital organ isn't going to kill him or incapacitate him. This is where "overall damage or destruction" matters. There's no "aiming at the treads" or any of that stuff. We're fighting robots, constructs, monsters, super villains, magical creatures, demons. Show me in the real world how all of these can be taken out with one shot of a pistol, and I'll abandon my position.
Or maybe you assumed that that's what those people were saying, even though they never actually said that, and you never bothered to ask and just ran at full speed with your assumption.. and then said a bunch of weird stuff about poo o3o
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
B: Wrong again again. Meeda did actually say exactly that. And why do you keep talking about me saying a bunch of stuff about poo? I said poo once in the same type of context that people say s**t all the time. When someone says "oh s**t!" around you, do you immediately start asking them why they're saying weird things about poo? You're so dense.
So yeah... no need to be defensive on that front. You maybe wanna calm down a little bit now? o3o
As for you validating these things and that... your message is a bit scattered. On the one hand you say that it doesn't make sense that assault rifles and gattling guns do less dps than pistols... but then you also start talking about super strength, and special bullets, and magic or whatever else it was that you brought up. Then you also started talking about player expectation. At some points you also said that it doesn't need to be realistic ( mainly when challenged with the idea that gattling guns generally don't work well as hand held weapons with no obvious method of holdings hundreds of bullets ) and that all sorts of comic book logic can be applied to explain away any sort of loophole regarding the reality of the use of these weapons.
At this point I'm not actually sure where you stand... I mean, you said you think it's silly that pistols do more dps... but you've given a lot of reasons why it's not silly ( and again, Meed's real world info was very enlightening on the subject ). So... I'm starting to wonder why you're fighting for this idea so hard... considering you're also fighting against it pretty strongly.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Also, someone must have installed spy cams in my house, because everyone can clearly tell that I'm totally angry and punching words into my keyboard with white-knuckled fists, right? This is the oldest trick in the troll book, accusing people of being angry just to try to get some high ground or rile them up. Get an update, it's not working. It's simple. You said "my character just has two big 'ol 50 cals!" This in itself is a silly thing to say, unless you have some kind of explanation as to why your character can do this. That's why I dismissed my own argument against your character doing so. Because we're talking superheroes. That's me being objective.
Right, so this is all conceptual stuff to make sense of what's going on in the game world. We can come up with reasons why pistols are doing as much DPS as they do. But for every single "maybe they do this much damage because X" I'm saying, "well, cool, but why can't that be applied to a larger weapon?" Right? "My Pistol shoots 50 caliber bullets with a magic spell cast on it to reduce the recoil to almost nothing!" Okay, so why can't my 50 caliber assault rifle have this same magic spell that makes it super-ultra-damaging and super-ultra-manageable? Why can't the same be done to my 50 caliber minigun? Same caliber bullet, but I can shoot like four times the amount of bullets that your pistols can.
See? Whatever we can come up with that can make your dual pistols so powerful, the same could be done to a much larger weapon.
If it seems like I'm ping-ponging between several different opinions is because I'm open to opinions that can change my stance on something. It's just on the overall issue of this change, it doesn't make sense to me, because bigger gun with more bullets and higher capacity magazines should, in many cases, mean a lot more damage.
So, where do I stand?
The change was okay. It doesn't seem logical to me. I would have preferred two-gun to have been reverted pre-buff, but it's not a big deal. So, The change was okay.
That's why I said it was "silly" and not OH MY GOD I'M SO ANGRY AT THIS BULLS**T CHANGE RAAAAAAARRRR!!!
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
For me it boils down to 2GM having been a strictly single-target attack before the change, and it made sense for me that it was given a significantly higher damage output than AoE munitions attacks simply due to the fact that 2GM wasn't AoE. This is a reason why I never strictly relied on 2GM and often used SMG for the groups.
So 2GM has lost its penetrating damage and has damage penalty according to group size just to make it into yet another munitions AoE. Can't really say I see the point of that change but eh, what's done is done.
A: No, I don't feel silly because while it seems very off to me that it does so much damage compared to other powers in the set, it's just cosmetic. I don't see anything actually broken about it, and it's a power I've liked since launch, so I'm happy it's where it's at.
B: If I said you're literally a Smurf, and you said you're not, would you say you're being defensive about it? Usually when people talk about someone being defensive, they mean they're emotionally overreacting, not simply "defending against untrue accusations". If you can't tell the difference between one and the other, that's not my problem.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
What you might not realize however is that all our guns are shooting magical bullets, that's why you never see anyone needing to reload them.
But wrong again, that's a hypothetical situation, not an analogy.
Do you think you could get back to discussing the actual topic or are you only interested in playing psychiatrist and trying to deconstruct my posts?