I've got zero confidence in this Dev Team

neuraldamage · March 2016

While I applaud the Dev time being spent on CO, some of these willy nilly changes are making the game no fun anymore. The latest straw is that stupid device insta-cooldown. Look I get trying to stop exploits, but that was your best solution? Seriously? Ugh, you can take that change and shove it.... NO FUN.

If the point was to anger the players and make them leave, good job. Mission accomplished. For the 1st time since Sept. 2009, I REALLY DON'T WANT TO PLAY THIS GAME. I used think Crush was the worst thing to happen to CO, but I was wrong.

No, you can't "haz my stuff".

Good luck, you're going to need it.

championshewolf · March 2016

So basically, balance happened and you don't like it. OK.

But since this isn't your first I Quit post I guess see you in several months.

jonsills · March 2016

Don't let the door hit you on your way out!

spinnytop · March 2016

neuraldamage said:
willy nilly

lol

deadman20 · March 2016

spinnytop · March 2016

That's a lot of salt.

deadman20 said:

There was some in deadman's gif too.

kemmicals · March 2016

kaosarcanna · March 2016

championshewolf said:
So basically, balance happened and you don't like it. OK.

But since this isn't your first I Quit post I guess see you in several months.

Balance is a subjective thing.

Balance for what? What are the Devs hoping to achieve with the changes they are making? Is this all being done to make it easier to create new content for the game? (Similar to how Enhancement Diversification in City of Heroes was a necessary thing before Invention Enhancements could come to pass.) Are they being directed on high to make these adjustments now in order to increase the time it takes to level? Are these changes considered necessary to allow the game to be ported to consoles? Is CO on the chopping block and these changes are being made as a last ditch effort to save the game?

We don't know at this point. At least I don't.

With all the changes that have been made thus far by this team I've had eight characters that have been impacted to a greater or lesser degree due to changes in Skarn's Bane, Strafing Run and Two Gun Mojo. The only ones I've retconned are the ones that have a retcon forced upon them, so I don't consider myself a FOTM player. However, the changes are coming so rapidly right now that I'm not going to level anything else until the Devs appear to be finished with whatever they're doing, and alting is really my favorite part of the game.

I've got a life time sub. In addition to that, I've probably spent an extra $500.00 to $800.00 (most likely more as I bought every travel power and costume the game has offered up until the beard pack) on the game in the last three years. I expect I'll be spending less time in the game until the balancing reaches wherever the Devs think it should be. Less time means I'll be spending less money as well. If the Devs change the game to the point that I no longer enjoy it, I'll just play something else and spend my money there.

My own opinion is that these changes are occurring for some reason other than Dev preference. I don't think the changes are being done out of anything other than a desire to improve the game. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and see how things turn out.

chaelk · March 2016

a quote from someone at work comes to mind" Leong is Fair, he gives me easy jobs. Tony isn't fair , he gives me hard ones."
that from a person who picked every easy job they could, on the thought that " it doesn't matter someone else will do it"

I have no problems with it. Things change. Sometimes you like them, sometimes you don't

Skarnes bane- i kept- still a good aoe attack. plus the odd debuffs
2gm - I swapped theEB on my farmers(2 of) with 2gm. That's it.
Strafing run- never used it.
Dodge changes- no effect
Int/cd- I stack for cost discount.

if it affects any of mine, I check how it works and most likely, leave it. I'm not a member of the ruler brigade.

pantagruel01 · March 2016

Nerfs are parts of the MMO cycle of life. The current dev team has a very light hand, there is a long history of powers being reduced by 75-90%.

chaelk · March 2016

pantagruel01 wrote: »

Nerfs are parts of the MMO cycle of life. The current dev team has a very light hand, there is a long history of powers being reduced by 75-90%.

not touching that comment, the... ok I will

also

hasukurobi · March 2016

chaelk said:
a quote from someone at work comes to mind" Leong is Fair, he gives me easy jobs. Tony isn't fair , he gives me hard ones."

that from a person who picked every easy job they could, on the thought that " it doesn't matter someone else will do it"

I have no problems with it. Things change. Sometimes you like them, sometimes you don't

Skarnes bane- i kept- still a good aoe attack. plus the odd debuffs

2gm - I swapped theEB on my farmers(2 of) with 2gm. That's it.

Strafing run- never used it.

Dodge changes- no effect

Int/cd- I stack for cost discount.

if it affects any of mine, I check how it works and most likely, leave it. I'm not a member of the ruler brigade.

I have my own issues with 2-Gun but it is not the one most do. I actually like Strafing Run's changes. It feels like it now does what I thought it was SUPPOSED to do from the start.

However, this instant cooldown thing is annoying and it seems like they could easily have done something else to fix the problem. Maybe just do it to the specific thing that was causing the issues.

chaelk · March 2016

the specific issues were people using their bag to cd the items, while using another.
comment from someone ingame " they were just hot swapping"

spinnytop · March 2016

kaosarcanna said:

championshewolf said:
So basically, balance happened and you don't like it. OK.

But since this isn't your first I Quit post I guess see you in several months.
Balance is a subjective thing.

Balance for what? What are the Devs hoping to achieve with the changes they are making?

They're taking the obviously overperforming powers and bringing them in line, and taking the obviously underperforming powers and bringing them in line as well. They're doing this while avoiding massive sweeping changes, and instead putting in the detail work we've been hoping they would for years. On top of that, they're not just raising or lowering the numbers, they're altering powers in a way that makes them more interesting and versatile - so far, over-performers haven't been outright nerfed, and instead have had some power exchanged for utility.

What they're trying to accomplish is to make the game more balanced in a way that makes more powers valid choices in regards to build performance, while at the same time making powers have broader applications both in terms of performance and theme. In other words, they're fixing the problems people have been *****ing about for years.

kaosarcanna said:

With all the changes that have been made thus far by this team I've had eight characters that have been impacted to a greater or lesser degree

Before this is done, it's likely all your characters will be effected. Quite frankly, that's how far reaching the problems that are being fixed are. You should be happy about that - I understand why you think you shouldn't be.

pantagruel01 said:
Nerfs are parts of the MMO cycle of life. The current dev team has a very light hand, there is a long history of powers being reduced by 75-90%.

People keep screaming about nerfs so much that I don't think they know what that means. When I take your baseball bat, don't make it hit any softer, make it heal you, make it swing wider so it hits more people, and make it hit people in their soft spots more often, and the only negative change I make is that it's heavier... i don't really see that as an equivalent to turning it into a Nerf(tm) toy bat.

championshewolf · March 2016

kaosarcanna wrote: »

Lot's of bluster...

Balance is not really subjective at all. It's the conceit of a player that make believes that it is. To people, balance is when what they perceive is OP is fixed, but when their powers, which are also OP, are fixed, then that conceit issue crops up. Again, developers can see the numbers and metrics. They know what is being abused and what is happening. It's massive hubris to imagine and pretend to think the devs aren't aware of things.

decorumfriends · March 2016

Adapt! Improvise! Overcome!

shilar · March 2016

Here's my issue with 2GM:

I would have actually been happy with a damage nerf (it was OP after all), but what was done? They moved it to the big powers, made it a narrow AoE, and replaced it with... a simple two-gun shot. Now, unless you are going for a specific build, 2GM is practically useless (since there are 2 AoEs that spray bullets already, one being all around), and the replacement powers sucks as bad as Fire Strike.

Now, like the fire powerset, it sucks at lower levels, since there is no charge/maintain powers at tier 1, like all the other powersets dealing with range.

championshewolf · March 2016

shilar wrote: »

Here's my issue with 2GM:

I would have actually been happy with a damage nerf (it was OP after all), but what was done? They moved it to the big powers, made it a narrow AoE, and replaced it with... a simple two-gun shot. Now, unless you are going for a specific build, 2GM is practically useless (since there are 2 AoEs that spray bullets already, one being all around), and the replacement powers sucks as bad as Fire Strike.

Now, like the fire powerset, it sucks at lower levels, since there is no charge/maintain powers at tier 1, like all the other powersets dealing with range.

The change to 2GM actually made it quite a bit more powerful. It was ridiculously easy to maintain and had the best utility and full mobility as far as powers of it's ilk, there was nothing to compare to it. It wasn't just OP it was ridiculously OP for the slot and all the benefits it provided.

kaosarcanna · March 2016

championshewolf said:

Balance is not really subjective at all. It's the conceit of a player that make believes that it is. To people, balance is when what they perceive is OP is fixed, but when their powers, which are also OP, are fixed, then that conceit issue crops up. Again, developers can see the numbers and metrics. They know what is being abused and what is happening. It's massive hubris to imagine and pretend to think the devs aren't aware of things.

The Devs decide what's overpowered and underpowered using their own metrics and goals. They determine what they consider an acceptable rate of DPS, Healing, Recharge, etc and then adjust the game till they get the results they desire. There's nothing objective about that.

The current Devs have decided that the game needs a lot of balance changes that weren't happening for the three years I've been playing the game. What happened before that I don't know. *shrug* What they're trying to accomplish I don't know either, but the fact that Cryptic is suddenly spending time and money adjusting the game implies they have SOMETHING in mind. Will it make the game more fun? That remains to be seen.

championshewolf · March 2016

kaosarcanna wrote: »

The Devs decide what's overpowered and underpowered using their own metrics and goals. They determine what they consider an acceptable rate of DPS, Healing, Recharge, etc and then adjust the game till they get the results they desire. There's nothing objective about that.

The current Devs have decided that the game needs a lot of balance changes that weren't happening for the three years I've been playing the game. What happened before that I don't know. *shrug* What they're trying to accomplish I don't know either, but the fact that Cryptic is suddenly spending time and money adjusting the game implies they have SOMETHING in mind. Will it make the game more fun? That remains to be seen.

What happened before is we had little to no development besides what amounts to a token update once a year and flipping the switch for annual events. Now we have developers that care about the game, and it's going to be unfortunate (for some maybe) but to progress forward the ridiculous needs to be brought under control, and there is still a lot of ridiculous things in this game. Forms, Ego Surge, Wardicator/Guardicator, Sentinel Mastery, Epidemic, and a whole slew of other things are still grossly in need of fine tuning. When powers become chosen because they become mandatory for a build to succeed, then it's obvious the balance is not there, and anyone who says it removes choice to fix these glaringly obvious issues doesn't understand what the word choice means. If there is only one choice to go with, then that isn't a choice.

It's been a hilarious battle cry of those salty types who think that "choice" is being removed because the only choice that mattered was balanced to fit within the scope of the game and making other choices viable. Take for instance 2GM. While some people will make believe there was a choice, or that a power like Lightning Arc even compares, Lightning Arc rooted a user, and required at least an external effect to make it fully useful. On the flip side, 2GM was useful out of the box, required no additional powers to make it useful, and in fact, required no additional set ups beyond just holding down the 2GM button and moving as needed, since you can use 2GM on the move. Now while Lightning Arc might need some tweeking, it did not need the manner of tweaking that 2GM required.

jaazaniah1 · March 2016

It looks like there are going to be so many changes to powers and devices over the next few months that the best thing to do is sit back and wait for the dust to settle. I'm not planning on doing any retcons or using any in game currencies (except OV and Rampage tokens) until the major overhauls are done. The game is easy enough that leveling really won't be much affected. I'll stash away the retcons, zen, Q and SCR for the time when things are stabilized again.

magpieuk2014 · March 2016

Wait for the new event to drop before you leave, neuraldamage, as it is quite good. And do participate in the forums if changes annoy you - if they've changed something which damages normal gameplay to reduce exploits, say so. I know it's been a wall of silence from the devs for years, but they are about now and they do listen to reasonable points. It also helps to have some balance to the chummy consensus which often rules around here....

riverocean · March 2016

jaazaniah1 said:
It looks like there are going to be so many changes to powers and devices over the next few months that the best thing to do is sit back and wait for the dust to settle. I'm not planning on doing any retcons or using any in game currencies (except OV and Rampage tokens) until the major overhauls are done. The game is easy enough that leveling really won't be much affected. I'll stash away the retcons, zen, Q and SCR for the time when things are stabilized again.

I said it before the last year ended and I'll say it again. For people who don't like change, it's time to take a break. It's been obvious since the new team took over that their intent was to balance the game. They spent some time getting use to things and experimenting.

That phase is over.

We are now in the hard core balance phase. This means favorite exploits and OP powers are going to be fixed. It also means neglected AT's and Powers are getting some love. And heck we're even getting NEW powers, rewards, and content.

One thing that's amazing.. PURPLE secondaries available for a few SCR. From a vendor. Any purple secondary that I want. no hunting and pecking.

And the entire vendor revamp that brought back some really rare devices and made them easier to get!

I say keep going dev team and keep making changes. When the dust settles the game is going to be better for it.

jaazaniah1 · March 2016

Don't misconstrue me. I'm not saying change is bad. It's just that trying to finalize a new or old build in the current state of flux is going to be difficult. We don't know what's planned for the game next. E.g. my zombie rocker (infernal/HW mix) will likely get the new sonic power, but I have to take something out to make room for that. Maybe in June they will change another power that affects her build that requires another change. I just don't want to burn a series of retcons on various characters over the next few months while they try to balance things. There's nothing wrong with saving up all kinds of resources/currencies and splurging with them all at one time once things have settled a bit

decorumfriends · March 2016

It's a mild annoyance that I'll quickly become used to.

championshewolf · March 2016

crypticbuxom wrote: »

The device change is pretty ****. You can't deny it.

I don't even notice it, but then again I didn't swap devices to get the most out of them either.

aiqa · March 2016

championshewolf said:

I don't even notice it, but then again I didn't swap devices to get the most out of them either.

It can even be considered a buff for many people.

Tied to the device cooldown changes lots of devices now have a much lower cooldown. And you can just set different builds so you can still use a ton of devices if you prepare a bit.

roughbearmattach · March 2016

decorumfriends said:
It's a mild annoyance that I'll quickly become used to.

Guess that's where I am at. I need to be careful when swapping out a device to become an Onslaught Villain--make sure it is one with a short cooldown, not one with a 10 or 12 min cooldown.

mijjestic · March 2016

aiqa said:
It can even be considered a buff for many people.

Tied to the device cooldown changes lots of devices now have a much lower cooldown. And you can just set different builds so you can still use a ton of devices if you prepare a bit.

Except for ATs, who cannot use Builds at all.

xcaligax · March 2016

If you're not on the PTS posting feedback about the changes on their before they get shipped to live, and you're an LTS player, then you have no room to complain.

You had the power to give feedback and possibly change during the testing periods.

aiqa · March 2016

mijjestic said:

aiqa said:
It can even be considered a buff for many people.

Tied to the device cooldown changes lots of devices now have a much lower cooldown. And you can just set different builds so you can still use a ton of devices if you prepare a bit.
Except for ATs, who cannot use Builds at all.

Even for AT's this can be a buff, the lower cooldowns on lots of devices works for AT's too.

If there are devices without a global cooldown that you think will cause a big problem for AT's, just report them on the PTS thread... like I did for Elixirs. For FF builds those could still be kept up 100% of the time by build swapping, for AT's with multiple Elixirs those became completely useless. So after that feedback they changed Elixirs to allow multiple to be equiped.

But yes, being able to swap builds is now a bigger perk for FF's.

riazan · March 2016

For me its not annoying as i swap out my passive or low cooldown devices when i want to use something else. Though would be nice if we had a special onslaught villain and vehicle device slot so we dont have to keep swapping out. It was kinda silly to be able to just swap in another device to be honest its like if we could swap powers without going to the powerhouse and there was no cooldown for it. I do understand though that there are devices like OV and vehicle that force you to swap out if you want to do content related to it, which is probably annoying for people who have long cooldown devices.

pantagruel01 · March 2016

riazan said:
For me its not annoying as i swap out my passive or low cooldown devices when i want to use something else. Though would be nice if we had a special onslaught villain and vehicle device slot so we dont have to keep swapping out.

You've got a lot of build slots, can probably free one up for the purpose.

mijjestic · March 2016

aiqa said:
Even for AT's this can be a buff, the lower cooldowns on lots of devices works for AT's too.

If there are devices without a global cooldown that you think will cause a big problem for AT's, just report them on the PTS thread... like I did for Elixirs. For FF builds those could still be kept up 100% of the time by build swapping, for AT's with multiple Elixirs those became completely useless. So after that feedback they changed Elixirs to allow multiple to be equiped.

But yes, being able to swap builds is now a bigger perk for FF's.

Trust me, I give feedback on the PTS threads and that includes this issue. Like anything, they'll listen and react to who they want to.

Personally I think the most annoying culprit are the Triumphant Recovery devices (Zen store purchases for chrisakes) which should, of all things, just be swap-able instead of going on cool-down on equip. ATs would have to use one of their slots for it all the time if they wanted use of it, basically, if they didn't have Servitor Serums or whatevs.

thegrandnagus1 · March 2016

championshewolf said:
But since this isn't your first I Quit post I guess see you in several months.

And we have a winner

magpieuk2014 · March 2016

riazan said:
It was kinda silly to be able to just swap in another device to be honest its like if we could swap powers without going to the powerhouse and there was no cooldown for it.

It wasn't silly to be able to have additional power replacers, or mission-specific gadgets. Those are part of the canon - there shouldn't be anything to stop a melee hero deciding a gun would be more effective in a particular mission, for example. I would like that to be more commonplace and viable than it is.

But... As always with CO, the problem was scaling. The way that devices were configured and the fact loads of rare ones have just been made available for Q, has led to a situation where a toon can have a 30 second 4K forcefield, 5 seconds damage immuity, a vast amount of health regeneration over time, a self-rez, and some mega-damage KB attack stacked at the same time. And then be able to switch over to another set on another build to avoid cooldown. It was a bit much.

The cooldown changes are a bit annoying (and a bit buggy!) but I do get the reasons for it. I honestly would comment on the PTS thread if the cooldown on specific devices is wrong/unhelpful as they have made changes based on feedback.

jaazaniah1 · March 2016

This is why I'm not retconning anything or buying more stuff in game than the minimum necessary until things settle down.

spinnytop said:

kaosarcanna said:

With all the changes that have been made thus far by this team I've had eight characters that have been impacted to a greater or lesser degree

jaazaniah1 · March 2016

I've 3 times gone to PTS to try to test this out, but each time there's been no one around to group test the content. Hard to giving meaningful feed back given that situation.

xcaligax said:
If you're not on the PTS posting feedback about the changes on their before they get shipped to live, and you're an LTS player, then you have no room to complain.

You had the power to give feedback and possibly change during the testing periods.

riazan · March 2016

magpieuk2014 said:

riazan said:
It was kinda silly to be able to just swap in another device to be honest its like if we could swap powers without going to the powerhouse and there was no cooldown for it.
It wasn't silly to be able to have additional power replacers, or mission-specific gadgets. Those are part of the canon - there shouldn't be anything to stop a melee hero deciding a gun would be more effective in a particular mission, for example. I would like that to be more commonplace and viable than it is.

But... As always with CO, the problem was scaling. The way that devices were configured and the fact loads of rare ones have just been made available for Q, has led to a situation where a toon can have a 30 second 4K forcefield, 5 seconds damage immuity, a vast amount of health regeneration over time, a self-rez, and some mega-damage KB attack stacked at the same time. And then be able to switch over to another set on another build to avoid cooldown. It was a bit much.

The cooldown changes are a bit annoying (and a bit buggy!) but I do get the reasons for it. I honestly would comment on the PTS thread if the cooldown on specific devices is wrong/unhelpful as they have made changes based on feedback.

I was just talking in regards to being able to swap in another device anytime and avoid cooldown, like you can be in battle use all your devices then swap them out, well pretty much what you said. I do like having replacers, i would actually like a res replace that wasnt tied to becoming a celestial being.

beezeeze · March 2016

Yeah OP the thing with the devices is a little annoying, I've got a lot of devices and now I've got to pre decide which 5 I want to use well in advance. (from 1 minute up to 30 minutes!)

...but I soon got over it and it hasn't really ruined my fun at all. Pity you don't see it that way, hopefully you'll find more fun playing something else.

squirrelloid · March 2016

xcaligax said:
If you're not on the PTS posting feedback about the changes on their before they get shipped to live, and you're an LTS player, then you have no room to complain.

You had the power to give feedback and possibly change during the testing periods.

rofl.

The amount of attention they actually pay to balance change feedback is near zero. Manipulator, which was not overperforming, ate a serious nerf, despite protests from pretty much everyone who actually uses it. Reason given: not the same as other toggles. Not a balance concern, it just had different mechanics and they were unifying them. And completely ignoring the fact that enrage stacks also worked differently, and that there were very good reasons manipulator stacks worked differently.

Unknown · March 2016

This content has been removed.

spinnytop · March 2016

xcaligax said:
If you're not on the PTS posting feedback about the changes on their before they get shipped to live, and you're an LTS player, then you have no room to complain.

You had the power to give feedback and possibly change during the testing periods.

The issue is that even of those people who did provide feedback it was primarily "This change sucks". Folks need to give alternate solutions - and yes, a few people did, but those solutions weren't viable. Who knows, maybe one of those people who only posted "This change sucks" might have had a viable solution, but they chose a different route and we missed out.

mijjestic said:

Personally I think the most annoying culprit are the Triumphant Recovery devices (Zen store purchases for chrisakes) which should, of all things, just be swap-able instead of going on cool-down on equip. ATs would have to use one of their slots for it all the time if they wanted use of it, basically, if they didn't have Servitor Serums or whatevs.

Well, TR is a powerful device and I feel like it's worthy of taking up a slot.

mijjestic · March 2016

spinnytop said:
The issue is that even of those people who did provide feedback it was primarily "This change sucks". Folks need to give alternate solutions - and yes, a few people did, but those solutions weren't viable. Who knows, maybe one of those people who only posted "This change sucks" might have had a viable solution, but they chose a different route and we missed out.

Devs both have brains and know better what they can actually faff with code-wise to enact a change. We don't have the latter. Your hypothetical posed seems extremely unlikely to me. They saw, and even saw specific suggestions, specific exceptions, and chose not to do it for reasons we won't know, whether for design, for workload and difficulty, whatever. Simple as that.

And I don't agree that it was 'primarily This Change Sucks' on this issue. There were plenty of constructive suggestions. You might have a better case with say the 2GM changes.

ATs were effected the most though, and people playing those are understandably under-represented on the PTS. No surprise really if there is extra aggro from the issue after it hits Live.

spinnytop said:
Well, TR is a powerful device and I feel like it's worthy of taking up a slot.

But only for ATs? Because any FF can just stick it on any given Build slot and only worry about it when needed.

spinnytop · March 2016

mijjestic said:

They saw, and even saw specific suggestions.

And I don't agree that it was 'primarily This Change Sucks' on this issue. There were plenty of constructive suggestions.

So basically what I said, the suggestions weren't viable. Thanks for repeating. Devs can see the code, but they're not all-knowing; it's entirely possible that someone not on the team can think of a viable solution, and this has in fact happened many times throughout the years.

From what I saw, "this sucks" was the predominant response.

mijjestic said:

But only for ATs? Because any FF can just stick it on any given Build slot and only worry about it when needed.

Yes, one of the perks of being a FF player. I see no problem with that, and wouldn't have seen a problem with it all the years I was an AT player either.

mijjestic · March 2016

spinnytop said:
So basically what I said, the suggestions weren't viable.

So all suggestions that aren't implemented are non-viable?

spinnytop · March 2016

mijjestic said:

spinnytop said:
So basically what I said, the suggestions weren't viable.
So all suggestions that aren't implemented are non-viable?

Your post could scare birds away from crops with the best of 'em.

lamina781 · March 2016

lol their like it is to hard to release something op from store or lockboxes,we must "balance the game"

pantagruel01 · March 2016

Incidentally, there were fixes made in response to complaints on PTS -- a whole bunch of devices got lowered cooldowns.

spinnytop · March 2016

pantagruel01 said:
Incidentally, there were fixes made in response to complaints on PTS -- a whole bunch of devices got lowered cooldowns.

But if we acknowledge that then we can't claim that they never listen to us, and then we might approach something close to a reasonable mind set!

magpieuk2014 · March 2016

I do like having replacers, i would actually like a res replace that wasnt tied to becoming a celestial being.

There's not a self-rez - but then that was always a bit silly. There is a rez-other-player device that anyone can have, though, and that should be more commonplace than it is. On a 90 second healing cooldown and a minimal stack level it wouldn't be a game-breaker and would be a great help during "tough" content.

I've got zero confidence in this Dev Team

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