Roles or Trinity?

gradii · February 2016

As we can see from content in CO, theres clearly more things possible with the powers in the game than simply healing, drawing aggro, and doing damage.

So why all this discussion about trinity? we should be talking about ROLES. and in CO I can see 6 roles, and combinations of them.

The roles I see in CO are:

Tank
DPS
Healer
Buffer
Debuffer
Crowd Control (which sucks and needs improvement)

I think the game should fully support all 6 of these roles and combinations of up to 3 thereof.

Ideally, the combinations which are most effective should involve one of the top 3 roles and one of the bottom 3 roles for balance reasons.

pantagruel01 · February 2016

In practice, buffer means presence specialist running a support aura in support role, which will almost always also be a healer because there's very little reason to not be a healer if you're already running around with 500+ presence. Controller also tends to be at least an off-healer because control powers are boosted in support role and massive Presence is the easiest way to hypercharge your control effects.

That leaves debuffer -- but defense debuffs are usually damage type specific and just get tacked on to dps and tank, and offense debuffs have quite minimal build requirements (they work just as well regardless of role, passive, or superstats). There's some exception for spec tree debuffs, but usually the way they fire is linked to another role.

sigmaseven0 · February 2016

Buffing, debuffing, and crowd control are all fairly weak in CO.

You would need to buff them up to COX levels to have a true 6 roles. The kind of buffs defenders had, and debuffs corrupter had, and cc controllers/dominateors had could be dangerous in a FF system though so it would be a tough balancing act.
These kind of powers would have to be fairly weak on their own and be heavily reliant on stance, passive, toggle and stats to keep them out of the hands of dps builds.

Currently tank, dps and heal are the only roles that are truly effective and reliable.

championshewolf · February 2016

sigmaseven0 wrote: »

Buffing, debuffing, and crowd control are all fairly weak in CO.

You would need to buff them up to COX levels to have a true 6 roles. The kind of buffs defenders had, and debuffs corrupter had, and cc controllers/dominateors had could be dangerous in a FF system though so it would be a tough balancing act.
These kind of powers would have to be fairly weak on their own and be heavily reliant on stance, passive, toggle and stats to keep them out of the hands of dps builds.

Currently tank, dps and heal are the only roles that are truly effective and reliable.

Uhh you have that now. And those roles were still the same roles as the "hated" trinity. If you think buffing and debuffing don't matter, then you really are ignoring a lot of builds that use these to startling effect.

And quite frnakly, CC was overpowered in CoH, since you could lock down pretty much anything indefinitely.

pantagruel01 · February 2016

If you want role specialization, you need to design powers so you can't get the full effect by just taking a one power dip. Looking at debuffs, for example, my tank applies shredded, fear, and mini drive. My off-tank applies disorient, fear, and stress. My main dps applies U-238 and chest beam. My healer applies disorient, fear, placate, svengali's guile, exhausting strikes, vulnerability, stress, ...

spinnytop · February 2016

The game does actually support all these roles, it just doesn't force them. The more I run TA the more I realize that we really are just choosing to bring certain characters. Some people don't value some of the roles as much as others, but that's fine because people should be allowed to make their own value assessments about these things. If someone thinks hybrids are worthless and refuses to group with them.. fine, no reason to force them to. Me personally I love a good hybrid, especially when they do something that empowers me. Hybrids are the type that make recovering from disaster possible - situations where people who are adhering strictly to singular roles would get stuffed. I've actually felt very rewarded for playing a hybrid character, more so than a pure character, so I think the game does very much acknowledge, represent, and reward these playstyles, and if the current design trend continues then it will continue to do so.

nbkxs · February 2016

Debuffer is weak? Some sets, fire; for example, completely rely on several buffs, and debuffs to get their dmg up to a decent level, if you had someone buffing, and debuffing fire dmg, etc; those chars would greatly benefit.

sigmaseven0 · February 2016

championshewolf said:

Uhh you have that now. And those roles were still the same roles as the "hated" trinity.

I'm not clear on what you are saying here. The op seems to be saying that you shouldn't really call it "trinity" if there are 6 roles. My position is that I agree, but 3 of the 6 roles the op listed are not developed or effective enough to define a character in CO, and thus can not be classified as roles here.
Are you saying that 6 roles is still "trinity"?

championshewolf said:
If you think buffing and debuffing don't matter, then you really are ignoring a lot of builds that use these to startling effect.

Your putting words in my mouth.
I never said "debuffing doesn't matter" or that "builds don't use de-buffs effectively". I just don't feel that debuffing in CO in and of it self is enough to define a character or constitute a stand alone role.

Here are typical examples of buff/de-buffing in CO:

aiqa said:

Bestial/MA requires the Shred debuff, PA requires Minigun or Chest beam, Icicle Spear requires Ice Blast, Lightning Arc requires an Negative Ions source, Conflagrate requires Fireball (adv) and Firesnake/Heatwave, Might and Heavy weapons require demolish, Force Cascade requires the Premptive Strike spec and any blast attack, Skarns Bane requires Hex and maybe Ebon Ruin (adv), etc.

These buffs/debuffs typically serve the user more than the rest of the team unless the team has synergistic damage types. We are talking about "roles" here and to me, buff/debuff as a roll means a build/toon whos primary purpose is support via buffs/debuffs. Just because PA (EDIT:or or FIRE

) can debuff does not mean I would classify it as a support toon.

pantagruel01 said:
In practice, buffer means presence specialist running a support aura in support role, which will almost always also be a healer because there's very little reason to not be a healer

This ties in with my previous point my previous point.
The line between buff/debuff and other roles can be blurry especially in CO, but CO tends to make buffing/debuffing 2ndary to one of the 3 trinity roles instead of going far enough to be its own role.

championshewolf said:
And quite frnakly, CC was overpowered in CoH, since you could lock down pretty much anything indefinitely.

Whats your point? CC was powerful enough to be a stand alone role in COH. The same is not true in CO as the OP agrees. I'm not speaking to the balance of COH and I doubt you want to make the case for CC being effective enough in CO...

nbkxs · February 2016

If you're creating a true buffer/debuffer, you would have things like heat wave, thunderstrike, burst shot, ice blast, etc, as all of the 'range over everything debuffs' have mostly been adjusted back, so they only apply to one specific thing. Sort of like a healer character, you have no power yourself; your entire role is to make everyone else have an easier job. And maybe boost their dmg, by allowing them to use dots instead of debuffs.

championshewolf · February 2016

sigmaseven0 wrote: »

Whats your point? CC was powerful enough to be a stand alone role in COH. The same is not true in CO as the OP agrees. I'm not speaking to the balance of COH and I doubt you want to make the case for CC being effective enough in CO...

Actually I never put words in your mouth you said buffing and debuffing was too weak. Furthermore, my point is CC should not and hopefully will never be that strong in Champions. CC is not about perma locking down groups of mobs, it should be about control, which also includes debuffing, slowing and so forth. If you want to build a pure buff/debuff/cc character you can do that here, but you will have to come to terms that buffing and debuffing tend to be more proactive here than CoH which was just a glorified buff bot with most controller builds, and many defender and corruptor builds as well.

spinnytop · February 2016

sigmaseven0 said:

Whats your point? CC was powerful enough to be a stand alone role in COH. The same is not true in CO as the OP agrees. I'm not speaking to the balance of COH and I doubt you want to make the case for CC being effective enough in CO...

Um... what do you mean? When I've made CC characters they were some of the most dominating at soloing Grab groups. In TA the fact that I have Bolas and a knockback has made people comment that suddenly those things are useful... now guess how much more useful they are on an actual control character.

Yes, there are a few small tweaks that CC needs, but let's not say crazy things like CC isn't good enough to be considered a role here.

sigmaseven0 · February 2016

championshewolf said:

Actually I never put words in your mouth

"you think buffing and debuffing don't matter" your words, not mine...

I do admit I could have been more clear.
We are talking about roles not builds and role dedicated buffs/debuffs/heals tend to be stronger in most MMOS. For example, fire snake is a respectable debuff but isn't any thing a fire blaster wouldn't have and doesn't really help the team if no one else has fire dmg. In my mind, a support fire snake would have expanded properties when used from support stance with maybe a support passive/toggle that would benefit more than just fire wielding players.
you will forgive me for assuming that the OP had properly set the tone for the context from which I spoke about powers just like I will forgive you assuming that i think buffing and debuffing don't matter.

spinnytop said:

Um... what do you mean? When I've made CC characters they were some of the most dominating at soloing Grab groups. In TA the fact that I have Bolas and a knockback has made people comment that suddenly those things are useful... now guess how much more useful they are on an actual control character.

Yes, there are a few small tweaks that CC needs, but let's not say crazy things like CC isn't good enough to be considered a role here.

I have ego storm and knock back on my melee dps toon, that doesn't make him a controller.

CC based toons are rare for a reason... This isn't crazy talk, this is common knowledge. This thread is bout roles/trinity and your talking bout soloing grab alerts... CC is safe for soloing but that doesn't mean its good for team support in 99% of the game (the other 1% being TA). If you want to ego sleep mobs and ego sprite them to death for hours that's your prerogative.

spinnytop · February 2016

sigmaseven0 said:

I have ego storm and knock back on my melee dps toon, that doesn't make him a controller.

CC based toons are rare for a reason... This isn't crazy talk, this is common knowledge. This thread is bout roles/trinity and your talking bout soloing grab alerts...

Yes, because that's part of this game that we're discussing. Weird right? I also discussed other bits of content.

Also, ego sprite to death for hours? You're doing something wrong good sir, looks like I know what one of my future hints&tips videos needs to be about.

sigmaseven0 · February 2016

spinnytop said:

Also, ego sprite to death for hours? You're doing something wrong good sir, looks like I know what one of my future hints&tips videos needs to be about.

The only thing I did wrong, is not be overt enough with my sarcasm.

sigmaseven0 · February 2016

gradii said:

I don't want role specialization I want to encourage mixing up to 3 roles of the ones stated above, and REWARD specializing as much as not.

We talked about basically making more of the utility aspects of powers scale with support stance/passives. I think that would help provide the REWARD your talking about.
I think the other thing necessary for making this a reality is to look at how how mobs are designed.

Many have brought up how TA makes CC feel relevant. Since the mobs in the boss fights respawn as fast as you can kill them, its more effective to just CC them. How much more can various roles be embellished by simply changing mob design without even touching the powers them selves?

I have already spoken at length about this in another thread, so I will just shameless quote my self:

sigmaseven0 said:
The What:
Most of the mobs in CO are basically DPS with an occasional "shtick" thrown in for flavor.
CC, heal, Buff and debuff powers are currently reserved for master villains and higher. Villains and even minions should also have access to various utility powers in AOE form. Some Master Villains and Enforcers even deserve an active defense and there aren't enough support mobs that AOE heal/buff the spawn.

Each Villain faction should specialize in something (range/melee/buff/debuff/cc/healing/mix).

The Why:
1. Mobs don't really have any attributes that demand target prioritization. (ex if a mob has a powerful buff/debuff/cc (especially a force multiplier) they need to be CCed or killed 1st). Target prioritization is something that makes sub-classes like CC and Assassin useful and makes playing with a team more generally meaningful.

@crypticarkayne @ladygadfly

flowcyto · February 2016

Perhaps what could be done is introduce a new Utility role, that focuses on diff things than any of the others.

The thing is, Trinity still exists in CO partly due to the roles. Hybrid is there, but not so much as Hybrid is itself a formal 'duty' w/ predetermined expectations, as much as its a medium between >1 roles (which will always be possible in a FF system). But ya can't really 'specialize' in debuffs and CC atm. Ya can take the Support role to max that atm, but then ur also dealing w/ Support's limits. Just cause ur a CC'er and/or debuffer doesn't mean you are a healer as well- yet Support means ya pretty much can't reliably hold aggro to off-tank, and doing passable dps is still tough.

An example of what a Utility role could do:

+duration time on all debuffs/DoTs
+CC strength
+dmg against CC immune targets
-dmg taken from CC immune targets (smaller boost, so Tanks don't get jealous)
-charge time cast for primary CC powers and/or -cd time for primary CC powers
and maybe add a unique mechanic that has you emanate a brief 50-100ft +dmgRes aura when you get CC'd or knocked

Something like that. The CC immune stuff would also apply to CC-able mobs that have a full resistance built up.

flowcyto · February 2016

And just to expand on above, I think it'd be neat to add a role-specific power. One that comes w/ the role automatically (like Sneak w/ NW as a passive). I'd make it a fixed-cd & instant ability that enhances ur gameplay a bit based on ur role:

- Hybrid role - Synergy: Gain an effect that depends on the type of passive you have currently slotted.
Defensive: boost dmg and dmgRes by a moderate amount for a short time, and restore a small amount of energy
Support/Hybrid/no passive: boost dmg and healing by a moderate amount for a short time, and restore a small amount of energy
Offensive: boost dmg by a larger amount for a short time, restore a small amount of energy, and reduce your threat on your current target

- DPS roles - Ravage: You go into a frenzy- greatly boosting your dmg, ignoring CC/knock effects, and healing a small% of health every second for a short time. Attacks deal no threat during this time.

- Tank role - Demoralize: Taunt your target and all targets nearby, generating a large amount of threat on each and lowering their dmg by a flat 20% for a short time. Also interrupts enemies that are CC-able.
(get rid of the role's 20% energy penalty btw)

- Support role - Savior: Rush to an ally target, healing in a 50ft area around them and resing any nearby fallen allies for 10% of their health. Can be used on/around self, w/ no travel component.

- Utility role - Warp: Attempt to stun the target, refreshing all current debuffs on them and spreading them to nearby enemies. However, you also are afflicted with Frazzled.
-> Frazzled: a short (2-3-ish sec) self-stun that ignores CC resistances and does not stack them. Can be used to proc Utility's dmgRes aura.

spinnytop · February 2016

gradii said:

pantagruel01 said:
If you want role specialization, you need to design powers so you can't get the full effect by just taking a one power dip. Looking at debuffs, for example, my tank applies shredded, fear, and mini drive. My off-tank applies disorient, fear, and stress. My main dps applies U-238 and chest beam. My healer applies disorient, fear, placate, svengali's guile, exhausting strikes, vulnerability, stress, ...
I don't want role specialization I want to encourage mixing up to 3 roles of the ones stated above, and REWARD specializing as much as not.

I feel like the game already encourages that simply by allowing you to do it, and by allowing you to determine how much you do it. For example, some healers fill every slot with something directly related to that role - but they don't have to do that to be effective enough to get the job done. As far as "rewarding" people for either specializing or hybridizing, other than feeling effective what did you have in mind?

gradii said:

You could balance the roles by limiting which roles could be combined with others.

So for instance you could make a Control Tank Debuffer or a Heal Tank Controller, but not a very effective DPS Control Tank.

I feel like this would be counter-productive to what you're trying to accomplish.

holloweaver · February 2016

gradii said:
So why all this discussion about trinity? we should be talking about ROLES. and in CO I can see 6 roles, and combinations of them.

Because CO had became a zerg mmo based on damages.
Either taking damages (tank), dealing damages (dps) or managing damages (support).
Want something different? Don't play damage-based contents...

chaelk · March 2016

holloweaver wrote: »

So why all this discussion about trinity? we should be talking about ROLES. and in CO I can see 6 roles, and combinations of them.

Because CO had became a zerg mmo based on damages.
Either taking damages (tank), dealing damages (dps) or managing damages (support).
Want something different? Don't play damage-based contents...

because most people want to say to say " look how big my dick is.. I mean, how damage I do. haha, your's is 2 mm shorter, you noob."

aesica · March 2016

The concept of "roles" in this game is poorly-done enough as it is thanks to the way the alert system currently works. Nothing like getting 4 useless tanks, or nothing but squishy dps in the same group--all without a healer. Because this game scales like crap, it's not so bad (just annoying and lame) in the upper levels, but for lower levels, it can be a group wrecker sometimes.

Point being, the last thing we need is to add even more roles, and thus, content based around making those roles useful when the matchmaking system can't even pair the 3 roles we have together worth a damn.

sterga · March 2016

"[...] the matchmaking system can't even pair the 3 roles we have together worth a damn."

This is all the reason anyone needs for not doing trinity or role stuff. Plus, how would you even force a role queue system when FFs exist and can fulfill multiple things or be self-sufficient. Or someone with OP gear / build that can probably out dps most in tank role with a tank passive.

spinnytop · March 2016

sterga said:
"[...] the matchmaking system can't even pair the 3 roles we have together worth a damn."

This is all the reason anyone needs for not doing trinity or role stuff. Plus, how would you even force a role queue system when FFs exist and can fulfill multiple things or be self-sufficient. Or someone with OP gear / build that can probably out dps most in tank role with a tank passive.

Can people please get their act together and decide if this game hates specialists or hybrids? Every day people are claiming a different group is the one being oppressed. One day it's "hybrids are useless" then the next it's "only hybrids can survive this"... how are people supposed to know if the video game is oppressing them? I don't know if I should be mad or having fun!

raighn · March 2016

Personally I'd love to have both a CC & a Buffer role... I've got multiple CC builds that are NOT Support CCer's and I find myself forced to run in Hybrid role to avoid the ire of DPS & Tanks who think I should magically be able to heal them simply because I'm running in support...

My Archer is a CC build... running in Ranged DPS....
My Telekinetic is a CC build also running in Ranged DPS...
I've got a Shielder who runs in Support but would be better suited to a Buffer role since she doesn't actually have direct heals...
I've got a Sigil Spammer that uses a AoAC and currently runs in Support though she's be far better suited to Buffer or Debuffer and it'd save me the headache of "why didn't you heal me?" When I flat out tell people at the start of every group I run with her "stand in my sigils if you want heals" because her only direct heal is a PBAoE...
And many more CC/Buff/Debuff builds that I run in Hybrid or DPS because of passives &/or people harassing me about not healing them...

Expanding the number of roles we have available is less about removing the perception of the trinity and more about epnding the freedom players have in their builds. Despite the fact that we can build whatever we want, the role we pick creates a perceived expectation from others and any of us who don't fullfill that expectation have to deal with rage and harrassment from many other players for not healing them or take a huge impact on our chosen build focuses effectiveness for picking a role that doesnt grant it a bonus.

This is a QoL change that is needed... even if the 3 new roles are carbon coppies of Support with differnt names/icons it'd still be worlds better than people having a misconcieved expectation that you are a healer... Support role will ALWAYS have the stigma of "healer", that won't change... we need a new set of roles for non-healer support builds. Buffer, Controller, & Debuffer are the 3 primary forms of non-healer support and deserve their own roles... Though Buffer & Debuffer could probably be merrged into a single role...

Personally I'd like to see these new roles counted as Hybrid when it comes to variety of passive available, but support when it comes to Sorcery Aura's. Controllers need the high CC buff more than anything else... Buffer/Debuffer could be tricky since any role specific buff for them could be disasterous, though Bonus Healing is still valuable for them since a Shielder would be better suited to the Buffer role than Support and benefits from Bonus Healing still...

Controllers should be represented by a set of Chain Links
Buffer/Debuffers should be represented by a pair of Arrows one going up the other going down.

sterga · March 2016

"Can people please get their act together and decide if this game hates specialists or hybrids?"

The game doesn't actually know what it wants to be when it grows up, so it's trying to do everything at the same time.

Specialist would be ATs. There is no matchmaking for them even though content that has certain requirements exist. Even stuff like Warlord would be much more pleasant with an all AT team if there was a role check. Even for FFs, not everyone is rocking an OP beast that can solo the world. I bet a whole lot more people would do F&I or TA if they could role queue. Why even have stuff like that have a PUG option when it could so easily be a disaster if no one can heal or tank?

The roles we have aren't supported with basic tools like LFD, what good will it do to have more roles?

"[...] I find myself forced to run in Hybrid role to avoid the ire of DPS & Tanks who think I should magically be able to heal them simply because I'm running in support..."

I've only encounter a few idiots that don't know anything about the FF system. They were thrown on ignore without a second thought.

avianos · March 2016

there is also the PET Master Role, but this is usually in the same field with Buffer, Debuffer and Healer (rarely EXTREME Cases where the whole build is PETS and the Energy Builder is the only attack)

Consider my Pet Master a Hybrid of Buff (Ebon Destruction, Overseer Aura) Debuff (Trapped and Impact from Overseer, Hex of Suffering) Slighty CC (Hex of Suffering Rune of Lethargy ROOTS) Healer (Arcane Vitality) and DPS (Pets, Skarn's Bane, Eldtrich Blast)
Yeah I didn't want to be 100% Pet Build and just being my Pets' Hitbox, and I still hate getting the Agro in the whole PUG

My "New Telepathy" DoT Character is running in Ranged DPS, despite using Manipulator because whats the point?

sterga wrote: »

I've only encounter a few idiots that don't know anything about the FF system. They were thrown on ignore without a second thought.

This reminds me of some dude in a Grab PUG who was bugging me during the whole Alert, he wanted me to Switch from Hybrid Role to Tank role in my LVL 40 character because I was using Invulnerability

Still Tanked the whole alert and the Boss >_>
And Im like: sorry do you know more about my character than I do? a character who was made in CO universe for 3 Years now?

raighn · March 2016

avianos said:

This reminds me of some dude in a Grab PUG who was bugging me during the whole Alert, he wanted me to Switch from Hybrid Role to Tank role in my LVL 40 character because I was using Invulnerability

I had the same situation before on one of my builds... I ended up changing my passive on her after it kept happening nearly every day since I got sick and tired of telling people back then "I'm not a tank, I just wanted Invuln as my passive"...

I swear I run into some of the worst people in PUGs...

Is it bad that I kinda wish they would change the role icons for ATs to AT icons?

spinnytop · March 2016

sterga said:
"Can people please get their act together and decide if this game hates specialists or hybrids?"

The game doesn't actually know what it wants to be when it grows up, so it's trying to do everything at the same time.

The roles we have aren't supported with basic tools like LFD, what good will it do to have more roles?

See I think the game does know what it wants to be; or rather the long line of various groups we've had working on it have agreed on one design concept. It wants to be both a trinity game, but also a game that doesn't always require the whole trinity. I think that it's some players who don't realize this, and that's where you get people staring at you with their arms crossed like "Why didn't you heal me healer o_o". They thought that they were supposed to face tank while you were supposed to heal them... they just don't know any better. Personally I like that - I like that the game has content that works without all roles present, but where being a role still makes things run a whole lot better. The problem comes when the game doesn't really explain that to players since clearly not everyone picks up on it as fast as some people do.

The game briefly mentions block as a thing you do sometimes when prompted, and pretty much never presents the concept of kiting or range dancing. A simple tutorial segment where you have to hop in and out of the range of some mobs, and run around while something chases you, would possibly do worlds of good in educating players about how big a part of gameplay kiting can be. Another segment where defender says "If they turn their attention to you, block like your life depends on it, it's the only way you'll survive!" and then have mobs that are scripted to drop aggro on Defender and attack the player every few seconds would teach players that block is a big deal.

As for "role queing", that could be a neat feature, but I'd rather not wait for my alerts to pop until someone ques as a tank or healer

raighn said:

I've got a Sigil Spammer that uses a AoAC and currently runs in Support though she's be far better suited to Buffer or Debuffer and it'd save me the headache of "why didn't you heal me?" When I flat out tell people at the start of every group I run with her "stand in my sigils if you want heals" because her only direct heal is a PBAoE...
And many more CC/Buff/Debuff builds that I run in Hybrid or DPS because of passives &/or people harassing me about not healing them...

I think a simpler solution might be to just get rid of those role icons next to our portraits. I mean, when I que for Grabs as my healer I can pretty much make a group unkillable, but I'd prefer it if when they see the little + next to my portrait they don't just assume they can charge in and face tank because maybe I'm getting a cup of tea at that moment.

raighn · March 2016

spinnytop said:
A simple tutorial segment where you have to hop in and out of the range of some mobs, and run around while something chases you, would possibly do worlds of good in educating players about how big a part of gameplay kiting can be.

No.... a kiting tutorial is the last thing we need... kiting is fine for solo play but when it comes to group play we're all better off without some glass cannon kiting everything across half the map... A proper block tutorial would be most welcomed though...

Honestly I believe we'd be a lot better off if the whole concept of kiting was never conceived...

riverocean · March 2016

The issue for me is that CO doesn't really have a clear definition of what type of game it is. We have Freeform and We have AT's. We have really weak content and we have really difficult content. The entire thing game is a bit messy. Add in a few years of it being the wild, wild west for most players, and well here we are.

I do think the new team is trying to properly balance things. I do not envy them. And I also get the sense that they are sometimes as confused as the players about what this game actually is. It's going to be up to them to set a direction and a design philosophy.

Which I think is happening slowly right now.

Because of the FF system tossing in controls and debuffs on the level that COH had would be a nightmare. Most of the buffs in this game are passives while the debuffs are tied to particular dmg types and frameworks. This is becoming even more the case due to recent adjustments.

Which is a good thing.

But when it comes down to it.. the reason we are all confused is that the game itself is in a of state confusion. We can't really know what to expect until the re-balancing is done and the dev vision for this game is clear to players. So conversations are basically pointless until all of that is done.

spinnytop · March 2016

raighn said:

spinnytop said:
A simple tutorial segment where you have to hop in and out of the range of some mobs, and run around while something chases you, would possibly do worlds of good in educating players about how big a part of gameplay kiting can be.
No.... a kiting tutorial is the last thing we need... kiting is fine for solo play but when it comes to group play we're all better off without some glass cannon kiting everything across half the map... A proper block tutorial would be most welcomed though...
Honestly I believe we'd be a lot better off if the whole concept of kiting was never conceived...

Nah, kiting is good and due to Travel Powers is obviously an intended tactic in the game. The other thing people need to be educated about is how to react when someone else is kiting

spinnytop · March 2016

riverocean said:
The issue for me is that CO doesn't really have a clear definition of what type of game it is. We have Freeform and We have AT's. We have really weak content and we have really difficult content.

I disagree. Variety in content is good. Not everyone wants the same thing.

aesica · March 2016

avianos said:
This reminds me of some dude in a Grab PUG who was bugging me during the whole Alert, he wanted me to Switch from Hybrid Role to Tank role in my LVL 40 character because I was using Invulnerability

Still Tanked the whole alert and the Boss >_>

And Im like: sorry do you know more about my character than I do? a character who was made in CO universe for 3 Years now?

I like to tank, but I do so in hybrid role because:

1) This game's energy regen system is ****. No seriously, the concept of grossly-weak energy builders for dps, and fuel-my-fire regen for tanks is just awful. If someone out-threats me in the tank role, my energy regen is a lot gimpier since I need to block hits/take damage to get decent energy regen. Seriously, who's the moron who thought this was good design?

2) If there's other decent tanks (it happens a lot and it's really annoying) then I just fall back into dps. Yes, I actually designed my character to do both because this game's matchmaking system is such garbage.

Oh well

spinnytop · March 2016

aesica said:
Seriously, who's the moron)

lol, lots of tanks seem to be managing fine, so the moron clearly isn't who you think it is.

raighn · March 2016

I completely understtand the energy issue with tanks... nearly all of my tanks run Defiance &/or have Fuel My Fire... and anytime I'm grouped with another tank unless I can out aggro them in the first few hits then I spend the entire time with little or no energy to attack with...

aesica · March 2016

spinnytop said:
lol, lots of tanks seem to be managing fine, so the moron clearly isn't who you think it is.

What a helpful post. Thanks.

Meanwhile, there are (to use your non-quantifying language) also "lots of tanks" who complain about not being able to hold threat against really high DPS. The point I was trying to make is that it's bad design to base tank energy regeneration around taking damage (fuel my fire, force sheath, defiance, blocking, etc) while gimping their offense-based energy regeneration (energy builder, etc). It creates a sort of feedback loop by which the tank falls further and further behind in threat generation because he/she cannot do as much damage due to reduced energy regeneration.

To use myself as an example, if things are hitting me, my energy is pretty much bottomless and I can keep nearly-100% uptime on all abilities. Threat generation remains stable and the fact that I even have an energy builder button is meaningless. However, if things aren't hitting me, I eventually run out of energy and have to work the energy builder, which is so meaingless in terms of damage and threat that it feels more like I'm stopping to catch my breath. Sure, I can crippling challenge some attention to myself for a bit, but unless those few seconds are enough to climb back to the top of the threat tables, it's back to ineffective, low-energy mode. All I can really do is hope that the offending DPS hurries up and gets smoked so I can take over again.

To put things in perspective even more, try to imagine this hypothetical situation: A DPS character with better gear than the tank is generating 99 threat per second. The tank generates 100 threat per second while taking hits due to increased energy generation, so this keeps him (barely) on top of the threat tables and there's no problem. However, if that same DPS gets several seconds ahead of the tank, then said tank is going to fall further and further behind with threat, despite crippling challenge's occasional taunt since, as far as I know, it only forces the target to attack the user for X seconds.

Hence why I call this game's energy regeneration system "bad design."

In WoW, taunts place you at the top of the threat tables immediately in addition to forcing the target to attack you for X seconds. Also in WoW, tanks generate way more threat than they do in CO. 900% increased threat vs CO's lousy...110%, is it?

pantagruel01 · March 2016

aesica said:
The point I was trying to make is that it's bad design to base tank energy regeneration around taking damage (fuel my fire, force sheath, defiance, blocking, etc) while gimping their offense-based energy regeneration (energy builder, etc).

Tanks can use energy unlocks like anyone else.

spinnytop · March 2016

aesica said:

spinnytop said:
lol, lots of tanks seem to be managing fine, so the moron clearly isn't who you think it is.
What a helpful post. Thanks.

Meanwhile, there are (to use your non-quantifying language) also "lots of tanks" who complain about not being able to hold threat against really high DPS.

I know. There are also lots of people who have told me that Dark Souls is impossible to beat. Opinions are fun.

spinnytop · March 2016

pantagruel01 said:

aesica said:
The point I was trying to make is that it's bad design to base tank energy regeneration around taking damage (fuel my fire, force sheath, defiance, blocking, etc) while gimping their offense-based energy regeneration (energy builder, etc).
Tanks can use energy unlocks like anyone else.

And forms too. There, we solved your problem Aesica, you'll be swimming in energy now.

kemmicals · March 2016

I'm sorry... It's bad design for a tank, whose job it is to take all the hits so everyone's healthy, to gain energy through taking hits?

Am I missing something here????

legendarylycan · March 2016

that's why, out of all the block replacers i've tried so far, i like force shield the best...you actually DO get energy from being hit while it's up

raighn · March 2016

pantagruel01 said:

aesica said:
The point I was trying to make is that it's bad design to base tank energy regeneration around taking damage (fuel my fire, force sheath, defiance, blocking, etc) while gimping their offense-based energy regeneration (energy builder, etc).
Tanks can use energy unlocks like anyone else.

Given the fact that the vast majority of Tanks in CO are using Might, HW, or Earth... no... no they cant... For the most part if you are using any of those power sets you don't have many options for energy management.... you can either Defiance Tank or load up on Knocks for Unstoppable... sure you can take MSA with short CD powers but as I've stressed many times before MSA is not a natural EU for most builds and feels forced most of the time... a forced EU will not provide reliable energy management.

aesica · March 2016

pantagruel01 said:
Tanks can use energy unlocks like anyone else.

spinnytop said:
And forms too. There, we solved your problem Aesica, you'll be swimming in energy now.

Both of these responses are silly. Of course they can, and I do. I'm hardly "swimming in energy" though, thanks to the reduced energy generation directly related to the completely unnecessary equilibrium/max energy penalty selecting the tank role incurs. Why are those even there in the first place? Why do the dps forms have gimmicky energy regeneration bonuses in conjunction with increased energy costs? Why do defensive forms such as inertial dampening field have energy-associated penalties? That's just stupid and only bloats the whole system up with unnecessary garbage.

As for solving the problem? No, hardly. If anything people like you are part of the problem. You defend broken mechanics as "fine" in spite of other people's experiences.

spinnytop said:
I know. There are also lots of people who have told me that Dark Souls is impossible to beat. Opinions are fun.

The problem I attempted to outline in my previous post isn't based on opinion. Stating that "tanks have reduced energy generation when they're not taking damage" is an observable fact. It's based on direct observations and a basic ability to read and understand numbers. Do keep up, please.

raighn · March 2016

kemmicals said:
I'm sorry... It's bad design for a tank, whose job it is to take all the hits so everyone's healthy, to gain energy through taking hits?

Am I missing something here????

Yes, the fact that tanks take a significant hit to DPS in favor of defense and taunts... however the threat gen from CripC & CS actually don't do much more than close the gap in threat due to the DPS cut... All it takes is for a DPS to get 1-2 seconds ahead of the tank and they can pull threat off them with no chance for recovery... the instant a tank loses threat if their energy comes entirely from taking damage they will spiral down in threat as their energy drops to unsustainable levels...

That problem could be easily fixed by having tank threat gen boosted significantly though...

kemmicals · March 2016

raighn said:

kemmicals said:
I'm sorry... It's bad design for a tank, whose job it is to take all the hits so everyone's healthy, to gain energy through taking hits?

Am I missing something here????
Yes, the fact that tanks take a significant hit to DPS in favor of defense and taunts... however the threat gen from CripC & CS actually don't do much more than close the gap in threat due to the DPS cut... All it takes is for a DPS to get 1-2 seconds ahead of the tank and they can pull threat off them with no chance for recovery... the instant a tank loses threat if their energy comes entirely from taking damage they will spiral down in threat as their energy drops to unsustainable levels...

That problem could be easily fixed by having tank threat gen boosted significantly though...

Agreed. Threat gen for tanks really needs to be beefed up so they can really get use out of the energy gain. I was more commenting that it sounded silly that it's bad design for dudes who take hits to get energy from taking hits.

pantagruel01 · March 2016

aesica said:

Both of these responses are silly. Of course they can, and I do. I'm hardly "swimming in energy" though, thanks to the reduced energy generation directly related to the completely unnecessary equilibrium/max energy penalty selecting the tank role incurs.

Neither of those have any effect on energy unlocks or forms. It's true that energy options within the might tree are somewhat limited, but it's not like you're limited to those powers.

raighn · March 2016

kemmicals said:

raighn said:

kemmicals said:
I'm sorry... It's bad design for a tank, whose job it is to take all the hits so everyone's healthy, to gain energy through taking hits?

Am I missing something here????
Yes, the fact that tanks take a significant hit to DPS in favor of defense and taunts... however the threat gen from CripC & CS actually don't do much more than close the gap in threat due to the DPS cut... All it takes is for a DPS to get 1-2 seconds ahead of the tank and they can pull threat off them with no chance for recovery... the instant a tank loses threat if their energy comes entirely from taking damage they will spiral down in threat as their energy drops to unsustainable levels...

That problem could be easily fixed by having tank threat gen boosted significantly though...
Agreed. Threat gen for tanks really needs to be beefed up so they can really get use out of the energy gain. I was more commenting that it sounded silly that it's bad design for dudes who take hits to get energy from taking hits.

It still is a poor design though when you take into account what happens when you have multiple tanks in a group... any tank who is unable to out threat the others will plummet in energy until they are hardly even contributing to the party... It's good to have tanks get energy from taking damage, but they still need a way to reliably get energy when NOT taking damage to keep their contribution up to vaaluable levels.

kemmicals · March 2016

I think a lot of the problem has to do with how the game handles aggro and how there's really no team cohesion required for most of the content.

aesica · March 2016

pantagruel01 said:

aesica said:

Both of these responses are silly. Of course they can, and I do. I'm hardly "swimming in energy" though, thanks to the reduced energy generation directly related to the completely unnecessary equilibrium/max energy penalty selecting the tank role incurs.
Neither of those have any effect on energy unlocks or forms. It's true that energy options within the might tree are somewhat limited, but it's not like you're limited to those powers.

Switching between tank and hybrid roles, I saw a decrease in energy generation from forms. (Again, why are energy-generating dps forms also equipped with a 10% energy cost hike? WTF seriously?) Also, anything that awards energy based on your maximum is gimped because of that totally-unnecessary 80% equilibrium/max nerf tanks incur.

See here's where we get to the other issue. As stated by someone else above, tanks give up some DPS for survivability, which is fine because that's what tanks do in all mmos. Crippling challenge/challenging strikes don't close the threat gap as much as they should.

Anyway, I have powers that I can sustain near-indefinitely, and those are what I use when I'm stuck as pseudo-DPS because of excess tanks in a given group with better gear than me. However, with all that extra energy regen that I receive from getting hit, it makes sense to grab slightly more expensive/powerful powers to close that gap even further, doesn't it? Seems like it would be wasting potential energy not to.

So then, you take away that extra energy for getting hit and...boom. Performance plummets.

kemmicals said:
Agreed. Threat gen for tanks really needs to be beefed up so they can really get use out of the energy gain. I was more commenting that it sounded silly that it's bad design for dudes who take hits to get energy from taking hits.

Because it is bad design. A tank's job is to take hits for the team and mitigate those hits in a way that keeps everyone alive. If their ability to perform this role is compromised by their energy regen mechanic (which it is in certain situations) then yes. It's bad design.

Roles or Trinity?

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