It does seem like the Tank's role energy penalties are to offset the fact that it gains more energy from blocking. That's an archaic balancing point though, imo, as this game is (too) heavily dps-based for constant blocking for energy to be a centerpiece now. I'd rather the penalties just be dropped for a QoL increase for heroes in the Tank role. We shouldn't have to sacrifice anything for this, but if we had to, then I wouldn't mind the energy from blocking being toned down a little to compensate. There's always Force Shield/Sheath around anyways, for peeps that like to use their block more strategically to gain a bit of extra energy.
Edit: and if the issue is simply that a newer player using an FF would select the Tank role and only see green (+%) bonuses and think 'wow this must be great!' then just update the role tooltips to better reflect the drawbacks of the role. Maybe throw some red text in there to help w/ the perception
2) You clearly explained your opinions, yes. But you never actually backed them up with anything solid.
You first.
I already have. Countless times.
I don't think tanks need an energy penalty because tanks already have enough drawbacks to make the role unappealing for the following roles, for the following reasons:
DPS - No bonus damage - No slot for an offensive passive - Extra threat generation (very bad when you don't have defensive abilities)
Support - No energy bonuses - No bonus healing - No slot for a support passive - Extra threat generation (healers already are pretty good at pissing things off)
It's an overkill penalty. It's pointless.
(Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
I have given up on trying to fight trinity threads in this game's forum. Like they way I gave up on trying to shut up my main pawn in Dragon's Dogma...I ended up calling her Navi and painting her bright blue.....then kicked her off a cliff.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Nope. Since the rest of your response was based on this assumption, would you like to rewrite it before I respond?
Since you asserted that the benefit of tank role is threat, that's the same as saying the benefit of tank role is useless when soloing.
Did me saying that the primary bonus of Tank role is threat completely erase all the other bonuses that Tank role gets or something? Refer to my big math post in the "TA off-tank perspective" thread for how a bit of healing effects a player's ability to survive relative to how much their hit points/damage reduction raises. A little goes a long way - that "small" defense/hp bonus that Tank role gets is deceptively strong. That's why they don't get self-healing bonuses, because defense doesn't just increase effective health, it also increases effective heals per second. In a round-about way, Tank role already gets bonus to self heals.
It does seem like the Tank's role energy penalties are to offset the fact that it gains more energy from blocking. That's an archaic balancing point though, imo, as this game is (too) heavily dps-based for constant blocking for energy to be a centerpiece now.
Well let's be honest, constant blocking isn't required to gain a meaningful amount of energy in Tank role. I can often fill my bar just by blocking for less than a full second. In fact, when in other roles it annoys me when I block and I don't get that wonderful influx of energy to immediately retaliate against those attacking me with.
I disagree. I think it has a very good point - making tanks less able to rely on their Energy Builder and motivating them to rely on other sources of energy instead.
I disagree. I think it has a very good point - making tanks less able to rely on their Energy Builder and motivating them to rely on other sources of energy instead.
Huh? That has piss-all to do with tanking. What are these "other sources?"
Energy unlocks? Not all EUs are created equal, so...throw more ball lightnings or fire patches? EUs and their unbalanced nature only encourage the inclusion of gimmicks in a build, which limits creativity.
Forms? The ones that make the most sense for tanks--defensives like IDF--only gimp energy even more. Mother of god, why? The only reason offensive forms like concentration make any sense is because CO's threat generation is a joke compared to more evolved MMOs. The only reasons for tanks to take DPS forms are the wrong reasons: 1) keeping up with threat from the high-geared DPS, and 2) energy generation in spite of also giving energy penalties. Energy generation/penalties and forms should be completely separated. Mixing them into offensive and defensive self-buffs doesn't even make any sense.
Getting hit? Yeah, it's great when you are, but it's useless when a gung-ho DPS or an unnecessary 2nd/3rd tank end up with the aggro.
So!
If you only respond to one small thing in this post, direct it at the following question:
What does "motivating them to rely on other sources of energy instead" have to do with tanking?
(Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
In a round-about way, Tank role already gets bonus to self heals.
On a typical Invulnerability or Defiance build, that gives you a 3-4% increase. That's a lot smaller than the effect of the healing bonus on hybrids.
As it should be. The amount that survival duration scales upwards with just a tiny extra amount of defense is staggering. Remember when you said returns from damage resistance didn't diminish? When it comes to survival duration, the returns actually increase when you add even a small amount of healing. That little bit of extra defense and hit points can be the difference between surviving X seconds, and surviving indefinitely when that tank takes a self heal power - especially if we're talking solo content. I mean, are tanks really dying all over in solo content for lack of self-healing? I only ask because the concept of tank role being useless while solo was brought up.
Huh? That has piss-all to do with tanking. What are these "other sources?"
It's weird how you ask this and write "other sources" with quotation marks around it as if I had mentioned something that doesn't exist.. and then you start listing off those other sources.
Energy unlocks? Not all EUs are created equal, so...throw more ball lightnings or fire patches? EUs and their unbalanced nature only encourage the inclusion of gimmicks in a build, which limits creativity.
You're straying off topic here aren't you? I mean, if you want to talk about Energy Unlocks and how some are better than others, then I have to ask... what does that have to do with tanking? Isn't that something that effects almost all roles?
Also you seem very much obsessed with the idea of "gimmicks"... now see me, I just take an Energy Unlock and then use powers that work well with it. I'd actually like to know what some of these "gimmicks" are you keep talking about so maybe I can start using them ( if they fit my theme and build concept of course ).
Forms? The ones that make the most sense for tanks--defensives like IDF--only gimp energy even more. Mother of god, why? The only reason offensive forms like concentration make any sense is because CO's threat generation is a joke compared to more evolved MMOs. The only reasons for tanks to take DPS forms are the wrong reasons: 1) keeping up with threat from the high-geared DPS, and 2) energy generation in spite of also giving energy penalties. Energy generation/penalties and forms should be completely separated. Mixing them into offensive and defensive self-buffs doesn't even make any sense.
IDF makes the most sense for tanks? I guess that's why I rarely see tanks using IDF, ey? I'm not sure why you think it makes the most sense... did you know that tanks already get a ton of damage mitigation from other sources? Tanks generally don't need IDF.
Offensive forms make sense because a tank's primary role is to generate a lot of threat - since damage generates threat, it makes sense for tanks to want to do more damage. Really, I'm not sure if there's some sort of mystery here. All the other MMOs I played also had tanks producing more threat the more damage they dealt. Of course, we do have things like Crippling Challenge and Challenging Strikes that generate pure threat - but hey look at that, they tend to be attached to attacks anyways don't they?
Again, you're drifting off topic here - if you have an issue with energy penalties on forms or forms in general, that isn't really a tank-specific issue, since tanks aren't the only ones using those forms. However, I can assure you that the energy gains from forms greatly, greatly outweigh the energy penalties.
Getting hit? Yeah, it's great when you are, but it's useless when a gung-ho DPS or an unnecessary 2nd/3rd tank end up with the aggro.
Getting hit only gives you energy if you have Defiance or specific specs, and is largely a supplementary form of energy generation. If you're depending on getting hit to generate energy, you're going to have a bad time. You'll do much better with the energy you get from those "Energy Unlocks" and "Forms" that you mentioned. That's the primary source of energy for my tank, and gung-ho DPS generally don't end up with the aggro - go ahead and throw a line about cookie cutter builds or something out there, but I assure you there's nothing special I'm doing. Hell, my tank is ranged... if that's cookie cutter, then what's with all these melee tanks I see all over the place?
PS - if a dps is being too gung-ho and attacking too soon and too hard and not allowing you to establish aggro, then just let them die. That's what we do in TA - they either learn their lesson or provide us endless hours of entertainment! If there are multiple tanks and one of them has aggro, then just keep punching away at the target - you know, the way that the dps are, since they're using the exact same methods of energy generation as you are.
If you only respond to one small thing in this post, direct it at the following question:
What does "motivating them to rely on other sources of energy instead" have to do with tanking?
Your energy builder doesn't generate much threat, so the game is actually doing you a favor by nudging you to use powers that will generate much more so you can tank properly. Your energy builder is the only thing really being effected by the Tank Role energy penalty. So I guess that's what it has to do with tanking.
In a round-about way, Tank role already gets bonus to self heals.
On a typical Invulnerability or Defiance build, that gives you a 3-4% increase. That's a lot smaller than the effect of the healing bonus on hybrids.
As it should be. The amount that survival duration scales upwards with just a tiny extra amount of defense is staggering. Remember when you said returns from damage resistance didn't diminish? When it comes to survival duration, the returns actually increase when you add even a small amount of healing. That little bit of extra defense and hit points can be the difference between surviving X seconds, and surviving indefinitely when that tank takes a self heal power - especially if we're talking solo content. I mean, are tanks really dying all over in solo content for lack of self-healing? I only ask because the concept of tank role being useless while solo was brought up.
In tank role I struggle to solo Gravitar (alert version) and have to block al her attacks to have a chance, switching to hybrid role makes that almost trivial. The 10% resistance is worth way less than all the heal bonus you get in hybrid role, and in tank role my energy and dps are worse. The only thing that is better in tank role is threat, but even in hybrid role (with onslaught tank gloves) I don't have trouble with threat.
In a round-about way, Tank role already gets bonus to self heals.
On a typical Invulnerability or Defiance build, that gives you a 3-4% increase. That's a lot smaller than the effect of the healing bonus on hybrids.
As it should be. The amount that survival duration scales upwards with just a tiny extra amount of defense is staggering. Remember when you said returns from damage resistance didn't diminish? When it comes to survival duration, the returns actually increase when you add even a small amount of healing. That little bit of extra defense and hit points can be the difference between surviving X seconds, and surviving indefinitely when that tank takes a self heal power - especially if we're talking solo content. I mean, are tanks really dying all over in solo content for lack of self-healing? I only ask because the concept of tank role being useless while solo was brought up.
In tank role I struggle to solo Gravitar (alert version) and have to block al her attacks to have a chance, switching to hybrid role makes that almost trivial. The 10% resistance is worth way less than all the heal bonus you get in hybrid role, and in tank role my energy and dps are worse. The only thing that is better in tank role is threat, but even in hybrid role (with onslaught tank gloves) I don't have trouble with threat.
Gravitar is solo content?
Sure, you can tank in Hybrid role - that's intended isn't it? Hybrid can do all the things, just not as good as the specialized roles can. Because of that it's also the best "independent" role. The tank role is still technically better at what tank role is about - generating threat. At certain points you just might not notice that the Tank role is better because when you have threat, you have threat - you don't know how far ahead you are, you just know that you do have threat. That's simply the binary nature of aggro. We could add some sort of Enrage mechanic that triggers if you really super threat up an npc that causes them to take more damage ( I've actually suggested it before ) which would help to change that binary nature, but for now it's binary. I can tell you that I've been in instances when the phrase "Oh, I better switch to Tank Role" was uttered by someone in Hybrid because they weren't able to hold threat - once in Tank role, they were able to hold the threat. And no, they did not drop dead without a healer nearby.
Also, I've tanked Gravitar in Tank Role and did just fine at surviving - I've seen other tanks do the same. And yes, this was when everyone else had dropped dead.
Gravitar is an example of "hybrid survivability > tank survivability". There isn't any solo content in the game where tank role is useful, since you can run it all in dps in under half the time.
Here's some numbers: In Hybrid role I do 12% more damage than I do in tank role ( actual damage numbers: 3814/3388 ) In Tank role I get bonus threat of 57%. In Hybrid role, no bonus threat. In Tank role my threat would then be 5319, while in Hybrid my threat would be 3388.
Gravitar is an example of "hybrid survivability > tank survivability". There isn't any solo content in the game where tank role is useful, since you can run it all in dps in under half the time.
So Hybrid role isn't useful either. You can give Tank role +100,000% extra damage resistance and Hybrid role +100,000% extra healing bonus and then also give Tank role +100,000% healing bonus and you'd still be better off in dps role with none of those bonuses. Glad we could reach an agreement there: in solo content, the question of Tank role getting any healing bonus is irrelevant.
Now, back to Gravitar: As I pointed out above, Tank role threat is in fact greater than Hybrid role threat. Sure, this doesn't matter if nobody in the party is generating more threat than you while in Hybrid role, but that won't always be the case, especially when you consider that some Tank builds aren't dps monsters. Tank role's threat is a pretty big deal in team content, it's meant to keep stuff aggro'd while a healer heals you - and as you yourself have personally seen, a healer isn't actually always required even with Tank role's current damage resistance bonuses, so I don't see why Tanks need that self healing. You said "It should be useful for solo content", but we just established that Hybrid's healing bonus doesn't make it any more useful for solo content than Tank role is, since solo content is best just wiped out with as much dps as possible. If we give Tank role what would actually make it useful for solo content, dps-scale damage, then what are we left with... a third dps role.
Now, how does this all relate back to the Energy penalty, or is that topic done?
Glad we could reach an agreement there: in solo content, the question of Tank role getting any healing bonus is irrelevant.
However, people do run team content solo. Blitzing Andrith will be easier in hybrid than tank.
Well then they should probably switch to Hybrid, seeing as they're running "team content solo". That clearly calls for the "I am the entire team" role, doesn't it? Best to leave a specialized role out of that sort of thing.
1) Don't make assumptions about what me wrapping something in quotes means. In this case, you're absolutely wrong since, in your own words, I followed up by listing off a bunch of alternate energy sources. Which ridiculously enough, you claimed was going off topic.
2) When I say EUs are gimmicky, I mean that you generally have to use some silly combination of powers you may not have selected otherwise, or use your powers in less-than-ideal ways to make them perform at their best. Ionic reverb and thermal reverb are okay on their own, but amazing if you take ball lightning or flashfire--2 abilities you may not otherwise have even wanted. Overdrive ramps up more quickly if you only half-maintain things which is counter-intuitive to fully maintaining an attack. The final ticks are usually the biggest hits.
3) While it's important for tanks to be able to get aggro, it's also important that they be capable of mitigating the incoming damage from everything. IDF makes a lot of sense for tanks because IDF mitigates damage. The only reason offensive buffs make sense for tanks in this game is because CO's tank threat generation is such garbage. If they significantly buffed tank threat generation and removed all the moronic energy penalties, I'm sure you'd see a lot more using it.
4) The energy gain from defiance, or even several quick hits against force sheath or an active blcok can quite literally take me from nearly empty to completely full in no time flat. One of the tank "bonuses" is increased energy generation from blocking, which as far as I know, includes force sheath's pseudo-block. I'd be willing to say "getting hit for energy" is largely part of the original design plan, not something meant to be supplemental. Too bad regaining threat sucks once you lose it since nothing's hitting you.
5) The game isn't doing anyone any "favors" by reducing the effectiveness of energy builders for tanks, especially those who built themselves around taking damage. To illustrate:
When things are hitting me: Limitless energy! Spam abilities, kick ****, mitigate damage, have fun.
When things aren't hitting me: Hit stuff until energy runs out. Spam energy builder. Repeat.
6) Energy builders being less effective isn't the only energy-related penalty tanks suffer. They have lower total energy, lower equilibrium, and forms generate less energy compared to hybrids.
- - -
All this back-and-forth and yet you still haven't offered any real reasons why an energy penalty for tanks needs to exist. Probably because....
IT
FREAKING
DOESN'T
But I think at this point, you're more concerned about "being right" than you are with critically analyzing a particular element of tank design in CO. One that is dated, exists in no other game that I can think of, and is completely unnecessary.
That's simply the binary nature of aggro. We could add some sort of Enrage mechanic that triggers if you really super threat up an npc that causes them to take more damage ( I've actually suggested it before ) which would help to change that binary nature, but for now it's binary.
Is there a third state I am unaware of regarding aggro? I've never seen anyone who "maybe" has aggro, it's either yes or no. Binary.
1) It's funny that you would complain about implied meanings of others, but then react like that when someone talks about the implied meanings of what you've written. PS - your complaints regarding forms and energy unlocks are in fact off topic in a discussion regarding tank role, as they do not function in some special way while in tank role.
2) Solution: Pick your various attacks first, then decide on your Energy Unlock based on those powers. Problem solved.
3) Tanks have access to Defensive Passives which give them plenty of mitigation.
4) So is tank role's energy bad or amazing? You don't seem to have cemented your views on this...
5) Again, your energy builder is not your only source of energy. If you're "hitting stuff until energy runs out" then just using your energy builder, then you chose not to use those other sources of energy, despite the fact that the game made them very much available to you.
6) Forms do not generate less energy in Tank role, how did you ever get that impression? I hopped into game just now to check... and yep, exact same amount of energy in Tank, Hybrid, and Ranged DPS role.
I actually have offered reasons for why the penalty exists, you just appear to be incapable of accepting any opinion as valid if it runs contrary to one of your own opinions. You are aware of that, yes? That you saying "the energy penalty doesn't need to exist" is just your opinion? I'm just checking, I'm sure you're well aware of that.
Is there a third state I am unaware of regarding aggro? I've never seen anyone who "maybe" has aggro, it's either yes or no. Binary.
No, no, no. Just no. This may be going way off-topic, but declaring a system such as mob aggro a boolean value is going to give people cancer.
1) Aggro is usually determined by a threat table, with the object (creature) holding the highest amount of threat being what the creature is going to attack. As this threat table exists on each mob, rather than the player, calling such a thing "boolean" is grossly inaccurate.
2) You can have aggro from different things, from nonthreatening to fairly tough. Let's use the firewall encounter from Cybermind as an example. As I'm sure you know, a wimpy mob and a stronger mob both spawn at regular intervals as players try to bring down the firewalls. Is "aggro from the wimpy one" the same as "aggro from the tougher one?" Not boolean.
3) Going along the same line as number 2, is aggro from 1 thing the same as aggro from every mob in the room? If you were thinking simply, you could maybe get away with labeling it a uint, where the value is based on the number of things attacking you, but definitely not a boolean.
Thus, "aggro" in games is typically a table of numbers and object references that helps determine what target an AI-controlled creature will attack, if any. There's really nothing "boolean" about it.
3) Tanks have access to Defensive Passives which give them plenty of mitigation.
And if you can get even more mitigation via forms? Especially a form that also extends its mitigation to all the squishies near you? Sorry if you can't see it, but IDF just screams "tank material." The only reasons you'll find that some/many/however/whatevermany tanks use offensive forms instead of forms blatantly based on mitigating damage is to help them keep up with dps in terms of threat generation, and maybe for extra highly supplemental energy generation. The threat generation issue could be easily fixed by upping the bonus threat generated by being in tank role.
4) So is tank role's energy bad or amazing? You don't seem to have cemented your views on this...
Currently, having used what you suggested in terms of picking powers then an EU to match, I am left with "amazing as long as things are hitting me--terrible otherwise." Once I switch over to a nice ball lightning gimmick, it'll be "amazing all-around." In spite of the grossly-unnecessary reduced equilibrium/total energy penalty.
6) Forms do not generate less energy in Tank role, how did you ever get that impression? I hopped into game just now to check... and yep, exact same amount of energy in Tank, Hybrid, and Ranged DPS role.
I actually have offered reasons for why the penalty exists, you just appear to be incapable of accepting any opinion as valid if it runs contrary to one of your own opinions. You are aware of that, yes? That you saying "the energy penalty doesn't need to exist" is just your opinion? I'm just checking, I'm sure you're well aware of that.
The reasons you stated only show that you've been playing this game long enough to become blind to bad design in terms of energy and tanks. I shouldn't fault you for it, because it's just what you're used to so you accept it rather than pushing to change the status quo. Let me assure you that nobody making a modern mmo or any type of respectable game would look at tank-role characters and say, "yup, they need an mana/energy/random other ability resource penalty! Herpderp!" At this point, that's all there really is to it.
(Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
Is there a third state I am unaware of regarding aggro? I've never seen anyone who "maybe" has aggro, it's either yes or no. Binary.
No, no, no. Just no. This may be going way off-topic, but declaring a system such as mob aggro a boolean value is going to give people cancer.
1) Aggro is usually determined by a threat table, with the object (creature) holding the highest amount of threat being what the creature is going to attack. As this threat table exists on each mob, rather than the player, calling such a thing "boolean" is grossly inaccurate.
2) You can have aggro from different things, from nonthreatening to fairly tough. Let's use the firewall encounter from Cybermind as an example. As I'm sure you know, a wimpy mob and a stronger mob both spawn at regular intervals as players try to bring down the firewalls. Is "aggro from the wimpy one" the same as "aggro from the tougher one?" Not boolean.
3) Going along the same line as number 2, is aggro from 1 thing the same as aggro from every mob in the room? If you were thinking simply, you could maybe get away with labeling it a uint, where the value is based on the number of things attacking you, but definitely not a boolean.
Thus, "aggro" in games is typically a table of numbers and object references that helps determine what target an AI-controlled creature will attack, if any. There's really nothing "boolean" about it.
3) Tanks have access to Defensive Passives which give them plenty of mitigation.
And if you can get even more mitigation via forms? Especially a form that also extends its mitigation to all the squishies near you? Sorry if you can't see it, but IDF just screams "tank material." The only reasons you'll find that some/many/however/whatevermany tanks use offensive forms instead of forms blatantly based on mitigating damage is to help them keep up with dps in terms of threat generation, and maybe for extra highly supplemental energy generation. The threat generation issue could be easily fixed by upping the bonus threat generated by being in tank role.
4) So is tank role's energy bad or amazing? You don't seem to have cemented your views on this...
Currently, having used what you suggested in terms of picking powers then an EU to match, I am left with "amazing as long as things are hitting me--terrible otherwise." Once I switch over to a nice ball lightning gimmick, it'll be "amazing all-around." In spite of the grossly-unnecessary reduced equilibrium/total energy penalty.
6) Forms do not generate less energy in Tank role, how did you ever get that impression? I hopped into game just now to check... and yep, exact same amount of energy in Tank, Hybrid, and Ranged DPS role.
I actually have offered reasons for why the penalty exists, you just appear to be incapable of accepting any opinion as valid if it runs contrary to one of your own opinions. You are aware of that, yes? That you saying "the energy penalty doesn't need to exist" is just your opinion? I'm just checking, I'm sure you're well aware of that.
The reasons you stated only show that you've been playing this game long enough to become blind to bad design in terms of energy and tanks. I shouldn't fault you for it, because it's just what you're used to so you accept it rather than pushing to change the status quo. Let me assure you that nobody making a modern mmo or any type of respectable game would look at tank-role characters and say, "yup, they need an mana/energy/random other ability resource penalty! Herpderp!" At this point, that's all there really is to it.
Oh dayum I wouldn't see an energy penalty doing any good with current DPS #'s. It's just too counter-intuitive to team play.
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
The threat generation issue could be easily fixed by upping the bonus threat generated by being in tank role.
Yes, go back a few pages and you'll notice I said this exact same thing. Sort of a convoluted path you've taken to agreeing with me don't you think?
As for IDF, the amount of extra mitigation it gives is paltry to your average tank. I certainly wouldn't give up my extra damage and energy generation for it, and I'm not even struggling for threat.
Currently, having used what you suggested in terms of picking powers then an EU to match, I am left with "amazing as long as things are hitting me--terrible otherwise." Once I switch over to a nice ball lightning gimmick, it'll be "amazing all-around." In spite of the grossly-unnecessary reduced equilibrium/total energy penalty.
Pretend I put that thing about a word not meaning what you think it means here regarding the word gimmick. Then, look up the word synergy. You'll see it mentioned fairly often when people talk about builds.
Sigh all you like while looking at this interesting and factual series of screen shots: Check for gear differences when you change your builds - I made sure my gear was the same in each build slot. You know how I can tell your gear is different? Look at your damage bonuses
Oh thank the dogs, you're finally willing to admit that I stated reasons! Progress! As for what you wrote after this: Viva la revolution? Other games do things differently, shocking news.
Man, I love it when two brick walls argue with each other. This is the real endgame of CO.
Isn't it exciting that we're entering an era where people could respond to this with "Actually, the real endgame is the actual endgame that we have now!"
Yes, go back a few pages and you'll notice I said this exact same thing. Sort of a convoluted path you've taken to agreeing with me don't you think?
You're arguing just to argue, aren't you? It's actually possible for a normal human being to agree with something someone else thinks, all while disagreeing with something else. Why are you even bringing this up unless you just want to start internet fights?
Check for gear differences when you change your builds - I made sure my gear was the same in each build slot. You know how I can tell your gear is different? Look at your damage bonuses
Odd, it isn't happening now, even though my gear wasn't changing. However, your screenshot has helped me understand quite a bit about why you think the tank energy penalty is fine:
Infernal.
No wonder. Infernal has arguably the easiest EU and offensive self-buff management (or complete lack thereof) in the game. You're "swimming in energy" because all you have to do is run in and spam Epidemic. Especially if advantaged with Outbreak, your form will be giving you energy nearly every 4 seconds, as poison will be flying everywhere, and if you dip below 15% energy for any reason, Supernatural Power kicks in and boosts your energy back up. I don't think SP even has a cooldown, so as long as you're spamming Epidemic, you quite literally cannot run out of energy.
I'm not saying this to make some sort of personal attack or anything against you or your build of choice, so don't misunderstand. Just know that not every power set is as generous with energy as the one you're using. I thought about going infernal myself just because I hate managing mana, energy, or whatever other resource a given game decides to throw at me. Pity it doesn't fit my character theme in the slightest.
So while yes, Infernal's energy gimmick (an ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, especially one designed to attract attention or increase appeal.) does make it appealing, I'll have to settle for Ball Lightning + Ionic Reverb. In the past, I tried MSA and Overdrive, so while maybe I was "doing it wrong," I chose the most logical abilities for my theme. Are we being encouraged to stick to themes here? Or use the same few OP combinations?
I think I understand now. The difference between you and me in this tank energy penalty "debate" is that you are fine with the status quo because you're using an OP combination of powers that works exceptionally well. Meanwhile I chose a set of powers to fit my theme, only to realize that, at a glance, MSA or Overdrive made the most sense. Themewise, overdrive does make sense if you focus almost exclusively on maintains. However, it and many other EUs are forced to take a back seat to cheesy combinations. I want to eliminate the penalties and eliminate the cheese, whereas you seem to want to preserve the penalties because you're using OP cheese that completely trivializes them.
Oh thank the dogs, you're finally willing to admit that I stated reasons! Progress! As for what you wrote after this: Viva la revolution? Other games do things differently, shocking news.
Your "reasons" were about as good as "because I said so" or "because tradition" or "because that's what people do."
Anyway, games also tend to reuse ideas from other games when they prove to be successful, all while crappy ones are discarded as failures.
I have quite a few characters. Want to guess how many of them are infernal? Here's a hint: It's a very small number. Throw that assumption right in the trash with the rest of the ones you were clinging to. I've used every Energy Unlock in the game, and oh what's this? I still think energy generation is fine as is. So, unless you're going to argue that every single Energy Unlock and Form in the game is overpowered, I think it's time for you to abandon your shaky line of "Spinny only uses OP stuff" reasoning, and start to have this debate without trying to rely on gimmicks like that.
PS - Yes, it is weird that that "energy penalty" mysteriously disappeared after I proved it doesn't exist, isn't it?
I have quite a few characters. Want to guess how many of them are infernal? Here's a hint: It's a very small number. Throw that assumption right in the trash with the rest of the ones you were clinging to. I've used every Energy Unlock in the game, and oh what's this? I still think energy generation is fine as is. So, unless you're going to argue that every single Energy Unlock and Form in the game is overpowered, I think it's time for you to abandon your shaky line of "Spinny only uses OP stuff" reasoning, and start to have this debate without trying to rely on gimmicks like that.
PS - Yes, it is weird that that "energy penalty" mysteriously disappeared after I proved it doesn't exist, isn't it?
"Energy generation?" What? We're talking about the tank energy penalty and why I think it's unnecessary, as well as why you think it supposedly is. I only brought up Infernal because it literally gets a free pass on energy management. You don't get to dismiss other people's opinions regarding their dissatisfaction with the tank energy penalty when you're using a special-case mechanic that almost completely bypasses it.
1) "Quite a few characters" followed by "a very small number" generally means more than one. Thus, the infernal EU is clearly good enough to warrant using across multiple characters. Hell, I'd certainly use it on all of mine if the infernal powerset suited the character themes I wanted to create.
2) "I have used every Energy Unlock in the game." Past tense? Yeah, I've used every EU in the game as well. Not all of them are created equal. In fact, not even close. I'll be trading in the inferior ones (MSA and Overdrive) for the blatantly-OP ones.
3) "I think it's time for you to abandon your shaky line of 'Spinny only uses OP stuff' reasoning." Fine. What else do you use? The only way your opinion of "the tank energy penalty is fine/necessary/whatever" can be taken seriously at this point is if you present me with something that isn't fueled by cheese.
4) What do you even want out of this argument? Nobody else here (including the devs) cares what either of us think, and we're not going to change one another's minds. I don't know (or care) how long you've been playing or how much you think you know, but if you seriously believe the tank energy penalty is somehow important, then you clearly know nothing about game design and should just stop talking about it moving forward.
At this point, the only real purpose of this battle-to-the-death argument is amusement--for both of us (apparently) and for anyone else who might be following it for the lulz.
"Energy generation?" What? We're talking about the tank energy penalty
We were, but then you started complaining about Energy Unlocks and Form and energy "gimmicks" and all sorts of stuff that I pointed out a page ago were not related to the topic of tank energy generation... you just kept on talking about them though. So, now you suddenly find it inappropriate to talk about those things? How about you figure out what it is you want to talk about and let me know when you come to a conclusion.
We were, but then you started complaining about Energy Unlocks and Form and energy "gimmicks" and all sorts of stuff that I pointed out a page ago were not related to the topic of tank energy generation... you just kept on talking about them though. So, now you suddenly find it inappropriate to talk about those things? How about you figure out what it is you want to talk about and let me know when you come to a conclusion.
I only brought them up because they were relevant at the time. I didn't expect you to carry each one off and create some sort of weird secondary "discussion" though.
I only brought them up because they were relevant at the time. I didn't expect you to carry each one off and create some sort of weird secondary "discussion" though.
I see. So when you discuss them they're relevant, but when someone else talks about them it's "weird" despite what they're saying being direct responses to your "relevant" comments on them. Sure.
I see, so you asking someone else to answer that question is fine, but when someone says you should answer the same question it's somehow unusual. I'm noticing a theme here.
Comments
Edit: and if the issue is simply that a newer player using an FF would select the Tank role and only see green (+%) bonuses and think 'wow this must be great!' then just update the role tooltips to better reflect the drawbacks of the role. Maybe throw some red text in there to help w/ the perception
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
I don't think tanks need an energy penalty because tanks already have enough drawbacks to make the role unappealing for the following roles, for the following reasons:
DPS
- No bonus damage
- No slot for an offensive passive
- Extra threat generation (very bad when you don't have defensive abilities)
Support
- No energy bonuses
- No bonus healing
- No slot for a support passive
- Extra threat generation (healers already are pretty good at pissing things off)
It's an overkill penalty. It's pointless.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
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My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Energy unlocks? Not all EUs are created equal, so...throw more ball lightnings or fire patches? EUs and their unbalanced nature only encourage the inclusion of gimmicks in a build, which limits creativity.
Forms? The ones that make the most sense for tanks--defensives like IDF--only gimp energy even more. Mother of god, why? The only reason offensive forms like concentration make any sense is because CO's threat generation is a joke compared to more evolved MMOs. The only reasons for tanks to take DPS forms are the wrong reasons: 1) keeping up with threat from the high-geared DPS, and 2) energy generation in spite of also giving energy penalties. Energy generation/penalties and forms should be completely separated. Mixing them into offensive and defensive self-buffs doesn't even make any sense.
Getting hit? Yeah, it's great when you are, but it's useless when a gung-ho DPS or an unnecessary 2nd/3rd tank end up with the aggro.
So!
If you only respond to one small thing in this post, direct it at the following question:
What does "motivating them to rely on other sources of energy instead" have to do with tanking?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Also you seem very much obsessed with the idea of "gimmicks"... now see me, I just take an Energy Unlock and then use powers that work well with it. I'd actually like to know what some of these "gimmicks" are you keep talking about so maybe I can start using them ( if they fit my theme and build concept of course ).
IDF makes the most sense for tanks? I guess that's why I rarely see tanks using IDF, ey? I'm not sure why you think it makes the most sense... did you know that tanks already get a ton of damage mitigation from other sources? Tanks generally don't need IDF.
Offensive forms make sense because a tank's primary role is to generate a lot of threat - since damage generates threat, it makes sense for tanks to want to do more damage. Really, I'm not sure if there's some sort of mystery here. All the other MMOs I played also had tanks producing more threat the more damage they dealt. Of course, we do have things like Crippling Challenge and Challenging Strikes that generate pure threat - but hey look at that, they tend to be attached to attacks anyways don't they?
Again, you're drifting off topic here - if you have an issue with energy penalties on forms or forms in general, that isn't really a tank-specific issue, since tanks aren't the only ones using those forms. However, I can assure you that the energy gains from forms greatly, greatly outweigh the energy penalties. Getting hit only gives you energy if you have Defiance or specific specs, and is largely a supplementary form of energy generation. If you're depending on getting hit to generate energy, you're going to have a bad time. You'll do much better with the energy you get from those "Energy Unlocks" and "Forms" that you mentioned. That's the primary source of energy for my tank, and gung-ho DPS generally don't end up with the aggro - go ahead and throw a line about cookie cutter builds or something out there, but I assure you there's nothing special I'm doing. Hell, my tank is ranged... if that's cookie cutter, then what's with all these melee tanks I see all over the place?
PS - if a dps is being too gung-ho and attacking too soon and too hard and not allowing you to establish aggro, then just let them die. That's what we do in TA - they either learn their lesson or provide us endless hours of entertainment! If there are multiple tanks and one of them has aggro, then just keep punching away at the target - you know, the way that the dps are, since they're using the exact same methods of energy generation as you are.
Your energy builder doesn't generate much threat, so the game is actually doing you a favor by nudging you to use powers that will generate much more so you can tank properly. Your energy builder is the only thing really being effected by the Tank Role energy penalty. So I guess that's what it has to do with tanking.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Sure, you can tank in Hybrid role - that's intended isn't it? Hybrid can do all the things, just not as good as the specialized roles can. Because of that it's also the best "independent" role. The tank role is still technically better at what tank role is about - generating threat. At certain points you just might not notice that the Tank role is better because when you have threat, you have threat - you don't know how far ahead you are, you just know that you do have threat. That's simply the binary nature of aggro. We could add some sort of Enrage mechanic that triggers if you really super threat up an npc that causes them to take more damage ( I've actually suggested it before ) which would help to change that binary nature, but for now it's binary. I can tell you that I've been in instances when the phrase "Oh, I better switch to Tank Role" was uttered by someone in Hybrid because they weren't able to hold threat - once in Tank role, they were able to hold the threat. And no, they did not drop dead without a healer nearby.
Also, I've tanked Gravitar in Tank Role and did just fine at surviving - I've seen other tanks do the same. And yes, this was when everyone else had dropped dead.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
In Hybrid role I do 12% more damage than I do in tank role ( actual damage numbers: 3814/3388 )
In Tank role I get bonus threat of 57%. In Hybrid role, no bonus threat.
In Tank role my threat would then be 5319, while in Hybrid my threat would be 3388.
So Hybrid role isn't useful either. You can give Tank role +100,000% extra damage resistance and Hybrid role +100,000% extra healing bonus and then also give Tank role +100,000% healing bonus and you'd still be better off in dps role with none of those bonuses. Glad we could reach an agreement there: in solo content, the question of Tank role getting any healing bonus is irrelevant.
Now, back to Gravitar: As I pointed out above, Tank role threat is in fact greater than Hybrid role threat. Sure, this doesn't matter if nobody in the party is generating more threat than you while in Hybrid role, but that won't always be the case, especially when you consider that some Tank builds aren't dps monsters. Tank role's threat is a pretty big deal in team content, it's meant to keep stuff aggro'd while a healer heals you - and as you yourself have personally seen, a healer isn't actually always required even with Tank role's current damage resistance bonuses, so I don't see why Tanks need that self healing. You said "It should be useful for solo content", but we just established that Hybrid's healing bonus doesn't make it any more useful for solo content than Tank role is, since solo content is best just wiped out with as much dps as possible. If we give Tank role what would actually make it useful for solo content, dps-scale damage, then what are we left with... a third dps role.
Now, how does this all relate back to the Energy penalty, or is that topic done?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
2) When I say EUs are gimmicky, I mean that you generally have to use some silly combination of powers you may not have selected otherwise, or use your powers in less-than-ideal ways to make them perform at their best. Ionic reverb and thermal reverb are okay on their own, but amazing if you take ball lightning or flashfire--2 abilities you may not otherwise have even wanted. Overdrive ramps up more quickly if you only half-maintain things which is counter-intuitive to fully maintaining an attack. The final ticks are usually the biggest hits.
3) While it's important for tanks to be able to get aggro, it's also important that they be capable of mitigating the incoming damage from everything. IDF makes a lot of sense for tanks because IDF mitigates damage. The only reason offensive buffs make sense for tanks in this game is because CO's tank threat generation is such garbage. If they significantly buffed tank threat generation and removed all the moronic energy penalties, I'm sure you'd see a lot more using it.
4) The energy gain from defiance, or even several quick hits against force sheath or an active blcok can quite literally take me from nearly empty to completely full in no time flat. One of the tank "bonuses" is increased energy generation from blocking, which as far as I know, includes force sheath's pseudo-block. I'd be willing to say "getting hit for energy" is largely part of the original design plan, not something meant to be supplemental. Too bad regaining threat sucks once you lose it since nothing's hitting you.
5) The game isn't doing anyone any "favors" by reducing the effectiveness of energy builders for tanks, especially those who built themselves around taking damage. To illustrate:
When things are hitting me: Limitless energy! Spam abilities, kick ****, mitigate damage, have fun.
When things aren't hitting me: Hit stuff until energy runs out. Spam energy builder. Repeat.
6) Energy builders being less effective isn't the only energy-related penalty tanks suffer. They have lower total energy, lower equilibrium, and forms generate less energy compared to hybrids.
- - -
All this back-and-forth and yet you still haven't offered any real reasons why an energy penalty for tanks needs to exist. Probably because....
IT
FREAKING
DOESN'T
But I think at this point, you're more concerned about "being right" than you are with critically analyzing a particular element of tank design in CO. One that is dated, exists in no other game that I can think of, and is completely unnecessary.
PS:
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
0 = do not have aggro
Is there a third state I am unaware of regarding aggro? I've never seen anyone who "maybe" has aggro, it's either yes or no. Binary.
1) It's funny that you would complain about implied meanings of others, but then react like that when someone talks about the implied meanings of what you've written. PS - your complaints regarding forms and energy unlocks are in fact off topic in a discussion regarding tank role, as they do not function in some special way while in tank role.
2) Solution: Pick your various attacks first, then decide on your Energy Unlock based on those powers. Problem solved.
3) Tanks have access to Defensive Passives which give them plenty of mitigation.
4) So is tank role's energy bad or amazing? You don't seem to have cemented your views on this...
5) Again, your energy builder is not your only source of energy. If you're "hitting stuff until energy runs out" then just using your energy builder, then you chose not to use those other sources of energy, despite the fact that the game made them very much available to you.
6) Forms do not generate less energy in Tank role, how did you ever get that impression? I hopped into game just now to check... and yep, exact same amount of energy in Tank, Hybrid, and Ranged DPS role.
I actually have offered reasons for why the penalty exists, you just appear to be incapable of accepting any opinion as valid if it runs contrary to one of your own opinions. You are aware of that, yes? That you saying "the energy penalty doesn't need to exist" is just your opinion? I'm just checking, I'm sure you're well aware of that.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
1) Aggro is usually determined by a threat table, with the object (creature) holding the highest amount of threat being what the creature is going to attack. As this threat table exists on each mob, rather than the player, calling such a thing "boolean" is grossly inaccurate.
2) You can have aggro from different things, from nonthreatening to fairly tough. Let's use the firewall encounter from Cybermind as an example. As I'm sure you know, a wimpy mob and a stronger mob both spawn at regular intervals as players try to bring down the firewalls. Is "aggro from the wimpy one" the same as "aggro from the tougher one?" Not boolean.
3) Going along the same line as number 2, is aggro from 1 thing the same as aggro from every mob in the room? If you were thinking simply, you could maybe get away with labeling it a uint, where the value is based on the number of things attacking you, but definitely not a boolean.
Thus, "aggro" in games is typically a table of numbers and object references that helps determine what target an AI-controlled creature will attack, if any. There's really nothing "boolean" about it. And if you can get even more mitigation via forms? Especially a form that also extends its mitigation to all the squishies near you? Sorry if you can't see it, but IDF just screams "tank material." The only reasons you'll find that some/many/however/whatevermany tanks use offensive forms instead of forms blatantly based on mitigating damage is to help them keep up with dps in terms of threat generation, and maybe for extra highly supplemental energy generation. The threat generation issue could be easily fixed by upping the bonus threat generated by being in tank role. Currently, having used what you suggested in terms of picking powers then an EU to match, I am left with "amazing as long as things are hitting me--terrible otherwise." Once I switch over to a nice ball lightning gimmick, it'll be "amazing all-around." In spite of the grossly-unnecessary reduced equilibrium/total energy penalty. *sigh*
42 40s, LTSer.
Yes, go back a few pages and you'll notice I said this exact same thing. Sort of a convoluted path you've taken to agreeing with me don't you think?
As for IDF, the amount of extra mitigation it gives is paltry to your average tank. I certainly wouldn't give up my extra damage and energy generation for it, and I'm not even struggling for threat. Pretend I put that thing about a word not meaning what you think it means here regarding the word gimmick. Then, look up the word synergy. You'll see it mentioned fairly often when people talk about builds.
Also, you did it wrong.
Sigh all you like while looking at this interesting and factual series of screen shots:
Check for gear differences when you change your builds - I made sure my gear was the same in each build slot. You know how I can tell your gear is different? Look at your damage bonuses
Oh thank the dogs, you're finally willing to admit that I stated reasons! Progress! As for what you wrote after this: Viva la revolution? Other games do things differently, shocking news.
The good news is, one of the energy penalties in the post you're responding to was completely fabricated
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Infernal.
No wonder. Infernal has arguably the easiest EU and offensive self-buff management (or complete lack thereof) in the game. You're "swimming in energy" because all you have to do is run in and spam Epidemic. Especially if advantaged with Outbreak, your form will be giving you energy nearly every 4 seconds, as poison will be flying everywhere, and if you dip below 15% energy for any reason, Supernatural Power kicks in and boosts your energy back up. I don't think SP even has a cooldown, so as long as you're spamming Epidemic, you quite literally cannot run out of energy.
I'm not saying this to make some sort of personal attack or anything against you or your build of choice, so don't misunderstand. Just know that not every power set is as generous with energy as the one you're using. I thought about going infernal myself just because I hate managing mana, energy, or whatever other resource a given game decides to throw at me. Pity it doesn't fit my character theme in the slightest.
So while yes, Infernal's energy gimmick (an ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, especially one designed to attract attention or increase appeal.) does make it appealing, I'll have to settle for Ball Lightning + Ionic Reverb. In the past, I tried MSA and Overdrive, so while maybe I was "doing it wrong," I chose the most logical abilities for my theme. Are we being encouraged to stick to themes here? Or use the same few OP combinations?
I think I understand now. The difference between you and me in this tank energy penalty "debate" is that you are fine with the status quo because you're using an OP combination of powers that works exceptionally well. Meanwhile I chose a set of powers to fit my theme, only to realize that, at a glance, MSA or Overdrive made the most sense. Themewise, overdrive does make sense if you focus almost exclusively on maintains. However, it and many other EUs are forced to take a back seat to cheesy combinations. I want to eliminate the penalties and eliminate the cheese, whereas you seem to want to preserve the penalties because you're using OP cheese that completely trivializes them.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Anyway, games also tend to reuse ideas from other games when they prove to be successful, all while crappy ones are discarded as failures. Fabricate implies intentional deceit, which was not at all the case. Try harder.
PS - Yes, it is weird that that "energy penalty" mysteriously disappeared after I proved it doesn't exist, isn't it?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
1) "Quite a few characters" followed by "a very small number" generally means more than one. Thus, the infernal EU is clearly good enough to warrant using across multiple characters. Hell, I'd certainly use it on all of mine if the infernal powerset suited the character themes I wanted to create.
2) "I have used every Energy Unlock in the game." Past tense? Yeah, I've used every EU in the game as well. Not all of them are created equal. In fact, not even close. I'll be trading in the inferior ones (MSA and Overdrive) for the blatantly-OP ones.
3) "I think it's time for you to abandon your shaky line of 'Spinny only uses OP stuff' reasoning." Fine. What else do you use? The only way your opinion of "the tank energy penalty is fine/necessary/whatever" can be taken seriously at this point is if you present me with something that isn't fueled by cheese.
4) What do you even want out of this argument? Nobody else here (including the devs) cares what either of us think, and we're not going to change one another's minds. I don't know (or care) how long you've been playing or how much you think you know, but if you seriously believe the tank energy penalty is somehow important, then you clearly know nothing about game design and should just stop talking about it moving forward.
At this point, the only real purpose of this battle-to-the-death argument is amusement--for both of us (apparently) and for anyone else who might be following it for the lulz.
This post makes that very clear:
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I guess that means we're done.