It really is not becuase of a lack of choice in dual pistol munitions powers. A lot of themed builds are going to be wrecked by this change.
We literally just gained a dual pistol attack with these changes. How does that make us have less choices than before? TGM is still very strong, so don't go saying people lost it as an option.
And just as an after thought, I still don't understand how anyone can say there is a lack of choice of dual pistol powers. We have Bullet Beatdown, Burst Shot, Two-Gun Mojo, Lead Tempest, Breakaway Shot, Holdout Shot, and an Energy Builder. That is much more options than most powersets/weapons in the game have.
Whether one likes the animation of Burst Shot or not, it's still another option to have. If someone wants to argue for diversity, they shouldn't complain about receiving a new power. TGM has been shown that it is still easily maintained in multiple different ways throughout the thread. I won't really comment much on it anymore.
Whether one likes the animation of Burst Shot or not, it's still another option to have. If someone wants to argue for diversity, they shouldn't complain about receiving a new power. TGM has been shown that it is still easily maintained in multiple different ways throughout the thread. I won't really comment much on it anymore.
Whilst I do agree that Burst Shot could have a more dynamic animation, at least the effect actually works and can be utilized on many different types of builds.
All I'd say about 2GM is that, I'd like to see a marginal reduction in cost from where it is now, if that was done this update would be pretty much perfect.
You don't really lose much (at least from where I'm sitting) with this 2GM adjustment.
let's see... It's animation SUCKS, (burst shot) and 2gm has a RIDICULOUS cost now?
Yes, a cost it should have had because it does a lot of damage, from a buff it never deserved. 2Gm is not a build thematic power because it fits themes, 2GM is most often used because it has all these utility effects that you would normally have to pick multiple powers to get, is negligible on energy costs, and oh yea, does high damage even unranked.
Theme is often an excuse to hide behind picking powers that really do not fit the bill or are you going to try and tell me that people exploiting bugs to use cuncussor beam with 2GM at the same time is build theme?
Yes, a cost it should have had because it does a lot of damage, from a buff it never deserved. 2Gm is not a build thematic power because it fits themes, 2GM is most often used because it has all these utility effects that you would normally have to pick multiple powers to get, is negligible on energy costs, and oh yea, does high damage even unranked.
Theme is often an excuse to hide behind picking powers that really do not fit the bill or are you going to try and tell me that people exploiting bugs to use cuncussor beam with 2GM at the same time is build theme?
Facepalms as Silverspar once again ignores the numbers in favor of her opinion which is always set in stone.
By the way I want the PA exploit fixed as much as you do. That does not make 2gm by itself ever OP.
I'm in favor of the Two Gun changes.
And these numbers you speak of are what? I know that if I were to take Two Gun (on Live) and pop it on to my Cascade spiker I would be able to net roughly the same, if not more, damage using Two Gun over Cascade for a fraction of the energy cost. Two Gun as it is on Live is vastly overperforming. Such damage, so little energy cost.
Also, the reduction in damage that I've seen periodically pop up in regards to Two Gun probably has something to do with the now removed defense penetration. Just sayin'.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
I guess just to clarify on this- before I meant the ability of a power like TGM to be accommodated for in a build, and not its relative strength compared to others. I'm more concerned w/ the former issue, and not so much the latter. The overall changes to make TGM require at least one other power to optimize its dps were imo fine, as well as eliminating the 10% piercing, which was excessive.
No, and there is one more Dragon power, Dragon Uppercut for Unarmed martial arts. Now I have a little question. Could someone test Viper's Fangs with Adv if inflicts Shreded/Deadly poison to all targets?
I didn't check whether it applied Shredded to every target, but it definitely applied Deadly Poison to all of them.
____________________________________
That Dork In The Suspenders, signing out.
Obv. I don't want this, but I see this waaay too much when a nerf or something drastic hits, and think to myself, "If only they knew what the word diverse means " and it annoys me .
That's your problem right there. The changes to TGM aren't even an actual nerf. It's nothing more than a power shift. People will still use it, but it will be less popular. Therefore, we will be seeing less of TGM which is arguably the most popular attack in the game, and more of different attacks. That right there is build diversity, or at least a step in the right direction.
And that's Your problem right there, can you honestly say shifting a power is okay for what it was specified to do beforehand with NO prior warning?. See this is what gets at me, y'all drastically change with no implications from the use of the power itself to warrant the change, then duck-tape "Build diversity"(hahahaha, nope.) on it. I think next we should redo completely(and change) oh, I dunno, RE to a PBAoE, lower the bleed rupture damage(spread it out through targets hit, at a lower value) And slighty increase the charge time(charges pretty quick as it, leading to relatively quick Charge-spams), maybe also lower the chance to apply two bleeds slighty on the adv. it has.
By the way? When a power is used less, that's actually taking away from build diversity(I don't usually hear of a loss of a power helping a theme or build..have to ask around on that one..).
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
By the way? When a power is used less, that's actually taking away from build diversity(I don't usually hear of a loss of a power helping a theme or build..have to ask around on that one..).
Unless the power currently is over represented. If that is the case, then using the power less means other powers will be used more.
VF does also applied Shredded to splash targets. Just double-checked that. Also procs AotI w/ the DP adv, as it should. Shred w/ PS, Reaper's Caress w/ CS adv, and Blade Tempest also AoE apply Shredded, so all is well there.
Also, the reduction in damage that I've seen periodically pop up in regards to Two Gun probably has something to do with the now removed defense penetration. Just sayin'.
There's something off with the damage in addition to the removal of defense pen, I think. Away from my home PC (and lunch break's almost up).
If no one beats me to it I'll do another character copy this evening and try to isolate it.
let's see... It's animation SUCKS, (burst shot) and 2gm has a RIDICULOUS cost now?
Yes, a cost it should have had because it does a lot of damage, from a buff it never deserved. 2Gm is not a build thematic power because it fits themes, 2GM is most often used because it has all these utility effects that you would normally have to pick multiple powers to get, is negligible on energy costs, and oh yea, does high damage even unranked.
Theme is often an excuse to hide behind picking powers that really do not fit the bill or are you going to try and tell me that people exploiting bugs to use cuncussor beam with 2GM at the same time is build theme?
I feel like bestial deserves these power cost increases because it was used waay too often(Massacre especially), glad they took that spam away from those who use it instead of using other powers specifically put into the bestial set to preform combos(as it was intended). Personally, I feel Massacre should also get a damage reduction as well, at least a tad bit, spamming gets waay too high numbers over others in its' tier.
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
VF does also applied Shredded to splash targets. Just double-checked that. Also procs AotI w/ the DP adv, as it should. Shred w/ PS adv also does this.
...TGM has been shown that it is still easily maintained in multiple different ways throughout the thread. I won't really comment much on it anymore.
Well, that's not entirely true. What has been mentioned is that builds stacked with EGO have no problem maintaining energy. However, issues have been noted. This tidbit of information is hidden inside the post or wrapped around some other statements of praise to the adjustments of the power - even the seasoned testers have alluded to energy problems.
Have a read through and you'll see.
Bottom line is, there is a energy management issue that needs to be addressed, whether it is for the leveling characters or your full-fledged 40 geared to the teeth.
For me, I guess that means I'll just have to go break my toon and stack EGO instead if I want a working 2GM.
I'm not sure this is what the devs had in mind when addressing the much overused power. If it is, well, the writing is on the wall...
I don't like Sigs, but I'll leave this here anyway. At least I'm not to trying to hypnotise you with moving things!
VF does also applied Shredded to splash targets. Just double-checked that. Also procs AotI w/ the DP adv, as it should. Shred w/ PS adv also does this.
Outstanding! This is a great change.
Indeed, Shredded is gonna be quite more frequently applied in teams now. *insert Oprah meme w/ Shredded here*
May make people consider forgoing Shredded special advs for R3 if they have friends or allies they know that will apply the debuff for them. Makes build considerations a bit more interesting, even if not many more players make that choice.
That defense penetration can easily be restored. Night Warrior as a passive, the new Burst Shot power, existing debuff powers, a small tweak to the INT tree specialisations. Add to that the new power spec's tendency to crit more often and it will probably end up being more powerful than it was before.
After further investigation I can add this to the debate.
1) Burst Shot sucks as a levelling power. Seriously, it does. Take a lvl6 toon down to Westside on PTS, and see why it should be renamed "Pop Gun". It does not do any great damage, the debuff has very little effect on low level enemies, the rate of fire is painful (as it would be for a recycled EB), and it lacks any form of SuperHeroicness - the toon looks more like an MCPD officer than a superhero. Anyone who picked it as an FF power would be running to the Powerhouse to respec. An AT equipped with it would be embarrassing.
Make it a lvl30 nice to have, though - 750 damage, debuff, maybe a stun or interrupt as well - and I'd find a use for it.
I can't tell you whether it works well with the other powers in the Specialist build as (BUG!) the Specialist is broken and you can't choose your third power, or indeed any others.
As regards 2GM:
The devs should be brave enough to outline their plan and ask for proper feedback rather than mixing it up in "next week's patch notes". They'd have got some better ideas.
Here are my thoughts after more testing:
a) They need to find a better levelling power than Burst Shot. It's embarrassing. Dev credibility is on the line, here, as this is going to be a very public patch, and people will be pointing and laughing if you put that out as a replacement.
b) The cylinder effect on new 2GM should be an option/Advantage. To me, it doesn't work in theme (a weapons specialist going all spray-and-pray? nah, superhero pistols are for close range, single target, precise aim) or with playstyle (clear the lower level mobs with Shotgun/Frag Grenade, single target damage on the Master V's/Enforcers). Others may disagree. Give us the choice.
c) remove the faff if you must - 10% DR debuff, Concentration stack, NTTG option - no great loss.
d) Additional energy req is disproportionate to other powers, but easy to work around. They'll laugh at your nerf and every third toon in game will still have 2GM.
e) If you want to make the power less of a go-to without ruining it, you can do two things:
i) - make the damage 2GM does vary by range. For maximum dmg you have to see the whites of their eyes (and block their PBAoE).
ii) Look at other powers and reduce their reliance on Passives from the same tree. Buff the base damage, reduce the Passive damage boost, and extend the range of some of the Passive forms. 2GM works really well because it's not reliant on Targeting Computer to be effective - you can combine it with any number of things and still have an effective toon which is in the sweet spot of good damage/good survivability. I'd like to be able to do that with any number of builds - Wizards that can shoot fireballs, lightning or ice daggers, for example - but I can't because of the limits on passives, which tend to make really mixed-up builds unworkable.
ii) Look at other powers and reduce their reliance on Passives from the same tree. Buff the base damage, reduce the Passive damage boost, and extend the range of some of the Passive forms. 2GM works really well because it's not reliant on Targeting Computer to be effective - you can combine it with any number of things and still have an effective toon which is in the sweet spot of good damage/good survivability. I'd like to be able to do that with any number of builds - Wizards that can shoot fireballs, lightning or ice daggers, for example - but I can't because of the limits on passives, which tend to make really mixed-up builds unworkable.
In my more fanciful moments I occasionally entertain notions of nuking all of the Offensive "__ Form" passives from orbit, scrapping them and replacing them with something that actually adds useful features to gameplay.
Stuff like Quarry and to a lesser extent Targeting Computer are fine, along with most of the Melee Offensive passives. They provide at least a smidgen of general survivability (though Unstoppable's kinda weak...) and their damage boosts are generic-enough that they enable a variety of themes.
But Fire Form, Ice Form, Electric Form, Stormbringer, Kinetic Manipulation, Shadow Form, Earth Form, Ego Form?
They're one-dimensional, they don't even provide that much of a damage boost (compared to the boost you get from being able to run in an Offensive Role, anyway) and their frailty (unless up against their specific defensive damage type) is awful.
They aren't even really true to the source inspirations, either. When's the last time you saw Human Torch take a bullet when he was Flame On'd?
They need better, more useful, more engaging mechanics and less of a generic damage-type-flavored damage boost. But that's probably a topic for not-this-patch.
Obv. I don't want this, but I see this waaay too much when a nerf or something drastic hits, and think to myself, "If only they knew what the word diverse means " and it annoys me .
That's your problem right there. The changes to TGM aren't even an actual nerf. It's nothing more than a power shift. People will still use it, but it will be less popular. Therefore, we will be seeing less of TGM which is arguably the most popular attack in the game, and more of different attacks. That right there is build diversity, or at least a step in the right direction.
Human nature being what it is, I think the 2GM spammers will move onto the next highest performing power and you'll soon see people complain that "Power X needs to be nerfed because it's too powerful!"
Admittedly, I'm glad that I'm not a Dev because I can't think of a solution to that which still involves leveling through killing mobs. The faster you can kill stuff, the faster you can level. Therefore, people will want to kill stuff as fast as possible.
c) remove the faff if you must - 10% DR debuff, Concentration stack, NTTG option - no great loss.
This plus making it Tier 2 and removing Crippling Challenge would have been good enough for me.
What's so bad about it having CC?
Well, the new version of the power also heals you, but that imo should not be a baseline part of the power.
If ya wanna tank w/ TGM, it'd be better for balancing if the heal and cylinder were rolled into a separate adv. Then tanks could take both CripC and the special adv, and their TGM's would not be doing near the dmg people should be concerned over, as they're using R1 of it. Or they could take R2, but then they have to pass on some extra non-dps related utility it could provide.
In my more fanciful moments I occasionally entertain notions of nuking all of the Offensive "__ Form" passives from orbit, scrapping them and replacing them with something that actually adds useful features to gameplay.
Stuff like Quarry and to a lesser extent Targeting Computer are fine, along with most of the Melee Offensive passives. They provide at least a smidgen of general survivability (though Unstoppable's kinda weak...) and their damage boosts are generic-enough that they enable a variety of themes.
But Fire Form, Ice Form, Electric Form, Stormbringer, Kinetic Manipulation, Shadow Form, Earth Form, Ego Form?
They're one-dimensional, they don't even provide that much of a damage boost (compared to the boost you get from being able to run in an Offensive Role, anyway) and their frailty (unless up against their specific defensive damage type) is awful.
They aren't even really true to the source inspirations, either. When's the last time you saw Human Torch take a bullet when he was Flame On'd?
They need better, more useful, more engaging mechanics and less of a generic damage-type-flavored damage boost. But that's probably a topic for not-this-patch.
Well, KM works brilliantly with 2GM and the defensive power is of real use. And that is a big pointer to why the game is overflowing with munitions builds..... because most of the time you'll be facing hoodlums/militia with guns, or might-based enemies throwing things, or Gravitar type-villains... lots of physical type enemies with that damage type. You'll not run into too many fire/ice/poison/magic enemies, so why build for them?
The Elemental forms need reworking. Buff the power dmg, lower the passive effect, but increase the defensive synergy between form and block of the same type across all damage types. Oh, and introduce an antagonist form of damage to which a power framework is particularly vulnerable, nemesis style (Fire/Ice, Earth/Wind, Celestial/Darkness, etc). Add in those things we all really want (general passives and energy unlocks, less effective than specific tree powers but still workable) and you might actually get some diversity.....
There was nothing wrong with 2GM having Crip Chall. It's just that the power had so many goodies. Too many, in my opinion. It's just my opinion. I get tired of seeing so much 2GM all the time.
And that's Your problem right there, can you honestly say shifting a power is okay for what it was specified to do beforehand with NO prior warning?. See this is what gets at me, y'all drastically change with no implications from the use of the power itself to warrant the change, then duck-tape "Build diversity"(hahahaha, nope.) on it. I think next we should redo completely(and change) oh, I dunno, RE to a PBAoE, lower the bleed rupture damage(spread it out through targets hit, at a lower value) And slighty increase the charge time(charges pretty quick as it, leading to relatively quick Charge-spams), maybe also lower the chance to apply two bleeds slighty on the adv. it has.
By the way? When a power is used less, that's actually taking away from build diversity(I don't usually hear of a loss of a power helping a theme or build..have to ask around on that one..).
I honestly wouldn't care. Bring on the AoE RE and all the other jabs you sent my way. I wouldn't give a damn and would still use the power without any cares in the world. I mostly tap the power and don't use the advantage on it anyway lol. If for whatever reason it received similar changes to TGM it would be completely fine.
Once again, it was not a loss of power. And when that power is quite possibly the most popular attack in the game, then yes, there will be more build diversity. People would use other powers. There would be more of those, and less of this one. Lessening the gap between the two is the definition of build diversity. But whatever, there's no budging on the matter anymore. The same thing happens every time there are changes like these on the PTS. People over-react, then everyone adjusts very quickly to the changes once they hit live.
My character is Dex-Ego/Int with some stuff pumped into Recovery. It's a pretty big change. Not only is damage lowered but you can't maintain nearly as long. On live I can maintain a bunch of times before needing any more energy.
I think the cost should be lowered.
Here's a video of me spamming the bajeezus out of it on PTS. Very basic munitions dual pistol build. I don't know how long you were maintaining it, but I think there's a good amount of maintaining going on in here. Note that my damage sucks because I'm bad at building - that girl Lyn in the video standing next to me does like twice as much damage as I do and can also spam the bajeezus out of it just like I can. Maybe she'll post a video too. No energy builder used, and I even left my travel power on for the energy penalty ( since most times you'll have it on ).
your first response: I can maintain the new 2gm without changing any stats your second response (which you conveniently edited out): i do more damage now with 2gm your third response: I dont use 2gm on live, so technically i do more dmg with 2gm on pts than on live
do you still not understand why i said you have non-objective views? people were giving legitimate concerns for the power and you swoop in and say 'i can maintain no problem, in fact i do more dmg on test sever!' just to be contrarian (who the hell knows why).
This is my Suggestion - please take time to read it!
Two Gun Mojo has 3 things that make it popular: 1. Mobility 2. Huge damage output 3. You can fire it kinda non stop
And you can still have all of these things with these changes! But because of the cost increase, it is only possible with the proper gear - this can expen$ive for some players :C It could also really pigeon hole them just because they want to use a cool and fun power. Studdering powers that quickly give you a "Not enough Energy" message is not fun :T I think a good balance would be if rank 1 of 2GM cost less energy than rank 2, and rank 2 cost less than rank 3. If players want to still spam that power around, they can by not ranking up the power to rank 2 or rank 3. Lower damage, but more bullets This will also let players who are at lower levels still use the power to its fullest effect without having to invest heavily into gear. At level 30, you probably won't be able to use 2GM without quickly running out of energy. With a tiered power cost according to power rank, everyone can go guns blazing!
Just drastically lower the cost period. It's much too high.
completely agree. having 2gm nonmaintainable with just killer instinct and realistic ego investment is no good.
Notice that if your theme is "guy who shoots two pistols", your theme is 100% secure in all parts of the video. No need to resort to magical circles or hybrid role or anything like that.
Also notice that in no part of the video are there long stretches of time where you aren't able to use 2 gun mojo( and in part 2 those short moments where you had to use something else were filled with 6k crits )
Nothing in this video is unrealistic or too demanding for your average player.
I didn't bother setting up the entire build because I had the forced respec and I was lazy. Just took enough to get AoPM R3 and 2GM R3.
Spec trees, talents, passive rank (AoPM), power rank (2GM) are all the same.
The specific energy costs aren't a useful comparison (I'm built to spam double-bubbles and Force Cascade, Two-Gun Mojo is nothing by comparison) but the ratio between the two may be useful.
* Cost is 34.4 for a full maintain on Live with two sources of -10% energy efficiency * Cost is 79 for a full maintain on PTS without two sources of -10% energy efficiency
Also consider that, on Live, I had both IDF and Swinging running, so that's two sources that contribute to the Live version having a higher energy cost. And yet the PTS version's still quite a bit more than double.
Not sure what the dodge chance difference is, I may have Flippin' active in the first picture.
Damage nerf's more than just the damage split upon multiple targets and the loss of damage penetration.
It isn't a DPS parse, but I figured tooltip damage was the quickest.
...TGM has been shown that it is still easily maintained in multiple different ways throughout the thread. I won't really comment much on it anymore.
Well, that's not entirely true. What has been mentioned is that builds stacked with EGO have no problem maintaining energy. However, issues have been noted. This tidbit of information is hidden inside the post or wrapped around some other statements of praise to the adjustments of the power - even the seasoned testers have alluded to energy problems.
Have a read through and you'll see.
Bottom line is, there is a energy management issue that needs to be addressed, whether it is for the leveling characters or your full-fledged 40 geared to the teeth.
For me, I guess that means I'll just have to go break my toon and stack EGO instead if I want a working 2GM.
I'm not sure this is what the devs had in mind when addressing the much overused power. If it is, well, the writing is on the wall...
i want to kiss you on the mouth.
why people are glossing over the fact that optimized ego/dex/con builds with KI will have to drastically change stats just to maintain? the base dmg was nerfed (undocumented), penetration dmg removed, energy cost increased x4.
i'm glad people found out how to maintain 2gm (congrats?) but, that's not the entire point - get your ego up to 400-500 depending on your cost discount gear or get an energy SS with overdrive to do this btw - the point is, people have to take multiple hits to their dps, as i listed above. it was basically nerfed 2-3 times with a 5% increase in crit chance with burst shot, which i like, since it buffs all munitions powers, not just 2gm.
why people are glossing over the fact that optimized ego/dex/con builds with KI will have to drastically change stats just to maintain? the base dmg was nerfed (undocumented), penetration dmg removed, energy cost increased x4.
i'm glad people found out how to maintain 2gm (congrats?) but, that's not the entire point - get your ego up to 400-500 depending on your cost discount gear or get an energy SS with overdrive to do this btw - the point is, people have to take multiple hits to their dps, as i listed above. it was basically nerfed 2-3 times with a 5% increase in crit chance with burst shot, which i like, since it buffs all munitions powers, not just 2gm.
I'm not glossing over it, I think it's fine that that's how it's going to be. It's called trade-offs and it makes decisions meaningful. Build for something and you get it, don't build for something and you don't get it, you get something else. Fact is, 2GM on pts still gives me more dps than what I get with Kagami on live, so it hasn't been turned into a bad dps power ( though I'm sure the people who desperately flock from fotm to fotm will wholly abandon it, but who cares ).
If anything, they can slightly raise the damage and leave the energy cost as is.
Feel free to watch my video if you doubt me, unless you want to turn a blind eye to objective feedback. Me personally, I don't think "turning on your energy builder" is such a huge concession for people to make, considering that's all you have to do if you still want your 10k hit points.
If anything, I'd say maybe bump the damage back up by maybe 5%.
Me personally, I don't think "turning on your energy builder" is such a huge concession for people to make, considering that's all you have to do if you still want your 10k hit points.
why people are glossing over the fact that optimized ego/dex/con builds with KI will have to drastically change stats just to maintain? the base dmg was nerfed (undocumented), penetration dmg removed, energy cost increased x4.
i'm glad people found out how to maintain 2gm (congrats?) but, that's not the entire point - get your ego up to 400-500 depending on your cost discount gear or get an energy SS with overdrive to do this btw - the point is, people have to take multiple hits to their dps, as i listed above. it was basically nerfed 2-3 times with a 5% increase in crit chance with burst shot, which i like, since it buffs all munitions powers, not just 2gm.
I'm not glossing over it, I think it's fine that that's how it's going to be. It's called trade-offs and it makes decisions meaningful. Build for something and you get it, don't build for something and you don't get it, you get something else. Fact is, 2GM on pts still gives me more dps than what I get with Kagami on live, so it hasn't been turned into a bad dps power ( though I'm sure the people who desperately flock from fotm to fotm will wholly abandon it, but who cares ).
If anything, they can slightly raise the damage and leave the energy cost as is.
Feel free to watch my video if you doubt me, unless you want to turn a blind eye to objective feedback. Me personally, I don't think "turning on your energy builder" is such a huge concession for people to make, considering that's all you have to do if you still want your 10k hit points.
If anything, I'd say maybe bump the damage back up by maybe 5%.
dude, no one cares that you have an int/con/rec build and can maintain 2gm. people complained about 2gm because optimized ego/dex/con builds had insane dmg, crit, sev, energy cost/unlock, survival. if everyone on live used your unoptimized build, 2gm would never have been nerfed in the first place. understand?
im glad kagami does more damage with 2gm on pts. but by your own words, kagami doesnt use 2gm on live, so what the hell are you arguing? just because you use an un-optimized low-dps 2gm build that no one complained about ever, doesn't mean people who are voicing concerns for the power being nerfed multiple times are any less valid. in fact, their opinions are far more important since you dont even use 2gm on live!
with the lowered base damage, removal of default penetration, the damage of 2gm was lowerd to around 15-20% less on optimized builds. this is significantly worse now than, say, lightning arc. this was more than enough of a nerf w/o the drastic increase to energy cost.
Notice that if your theme is "guy who shoots two pistols", your theme is 100% secure in all parts of the video. No need to resort to magical circles or hybrid role or anything like that.
Also notice that in no part of the video are there long stretches of time where you aren't able to use 2 gun mojo( and in part 2 those short moments where you had to use something else were filled with 6k crits )
Nothing in this video is unrealistic or too demanding for your average player.
Still right , as by your own words, you said you had no problems and could maintain it endlessly, as soon as it hit the 2nd part? You started having issues, frequently. Which means on live, a loss in DPS/fluidity in combat . Thank you for the vid though
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
Me personally, I don't think "turning on your energy builder" is such a huge concession for people to make, considering that's all you have to do if you still want your 10k hit points.
Notice that if your theme is "guy who shoots two pistols", your theme is 100% secure in all parts of the video. No need to resort to magical circles or hybrid role or anything like that.
Also notice that in no part of the video are there long stretches of time where you aren't able to use 2 gun mojo( and in part 2 those short moments where you had to use something else were filled with 6k crits )
Nothing in this video is unrealistic or too demanding for your average player.
Still right , as by your own words, you said you had no problems and could maintain it endlessly, as soon as it hit the 2nd part? You started having issues, frequently. Which means on live, a loss in DPS/fluidity in combat . Thank you for the vid though
Watch the video again, it starts out with me endlessly maintaining it, in heroic gear as asked. i fulfilled everything asked of me and proved what I was saying.
the fact that swapping in enough Con to get 10k hit points means that you'll do less dps due to your energy building ticking every now and then than the amount of dps you would do going full on glass cannon? That sounds like balance to me... you know, that thing people keep asking for but start complaining about when it actually happens?
Wizards that can shoot fireballs, lightning or ice daggers, for example - but I can't because of the limits on passives, which tend to make really mixed-up builds unworkable.
You can totally do that. Night Warrior buffs all damage if you want to do this in a dps role, or in hybrid you could take aopm or aoed, or even aoac. If you're gonna do it in tank role, well tank passives don't give damage bonuses so you're in the clear there no matter which one you pick.
dude, no one cares that you have an int/con/rec build and can maintain 2gm.
you should try watching the video so you know what you're talking about, because now you're just looking foolish.
I was giving an example of what could possibly maintain 2gm. i didnt watch your video. now i watched it. you have 578 ego (LOL) or you suggest using EB or burst shot when energy gets low.
again i have no clue what you are trying to argue.
what i'm getting from your posts is: make a bad build for 2gm to maintain it, 2gm does more damage than other powers (what is this point?) use your energy builder/holdoutshot/burst shot when 2gm maintain gets low on a more quality build.
again, as i said so many freaking times, you are arguing that maintaining 2gm is possible. what you are failing to argue, is that your build is totally less than optimized. as i said in a prvious response, if everyone ran around with your suboptimal build doing 2k crits, 2gm would never have been nerfed.
I was giving an example of what could possibly maintain 2gm. i didnt watch your video. now i watched it. you have 578 ego (LOL)
How about you post your "optimized build" and let's really take an in depth look at where all that amazing damage was coming from. I'm sure it wasn't some sort of str-primary build that stacks tons of Con, because you couldn't possibly be arguing that having that kind of DPS mixed with that kind of survivability and easy energy management is even remotely balanced. I'm also sure that your build had plenty of energy management implemented and wasn't just taking advantage of the low cost of 2gun mojo.
As far as I can tell, your biggest beef is that the damage was reduced from the greatly overperforming state on live, to which the only answer is: deal with it, your crutch got nerfed.
As for the video, I showed how easily you can maintain 2gun mojo. Yes, lol, stacking a bunch of ego, taking KI, and Concentration, that's asking so much of you.
By the way? When a power is used less, that's actually taking away from build diversity(I don't usually hear of a loss of a power helping a theme or build..have to ask around on that one..).
Keep in mind that when that power is used less, other powers are being used more ( that power slot doesn't just go empty, it gets filled with something else). When that power was a power that was used more than others, that means that build diversity will in fact go up.
We're not losing a power, not sure where you got that idea. 2 Gun Mojo will still very much be in the game. However, the number of people using it purely because it has the best damage will go down... the number of people using it for a theme will stay the same, because their theme is still the same - if it really is a theme issue, they'll happily swap around some numbers to make the power useable, since what they care about is theme, not numbers, right? I'm not concerned about the former group, because they'll just find a new "best dps" power and then they'll stop whining. And let's be honest, there's a lot of the former group trying to hide in the latter. It's neat when your theme build just happens to be a carbon copy of the game's best dps build isn't it?
I have only one complaint - that only users of the munitions powers get a free respec. I've got at least 2 MA toons I need to retcon now xP.
Okay, 2 complaints. Mildly annoyed that Steadfast only works with MA. (Why can't we just have one melee EU that works off Rec and the better of Str or Dex. Or just one EU period that works off crits period with some appropriate governing SS) This framework-specific EU nonsense is the reason everyone uses MSA in the first place - stop doing that. Give us general EUs that work around *playstyles* rather than *power frameworks* so we can actually make fuller use of the ability to pull powers from a variety of frameworks. (Yes, one of those two retcons i have to do is make one of my MA toons actually pure MA and not MA/gadget/bestial).
Also: 2gm had it coming. It was clearly the top performing dps power against anything mildly hard to kill (even over lightning arc, which has the disadvantage of rooting you) because of its former penetrating damage. And I'm not convinced this is a nerf - it traded some damage (and gaining any need to care about energy management) for a heck of a lot of utility.
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And just as an after thought, I still don't understand how anyone can say there is a lack of choice of dual pistol powers. We have Bullet Beatdown, Burst Shot, Two-Gun Mojo, Lead Tempest, Breakaway Shot, Holdout Shot, and an Energy Builder. That is much more options than most powersets/weapons in the game have.
All I'd say about 2GM is that, I'd like to see a marginal reduction in cost from where it is now, if that was done this update would be pretty much perfect.
You don't really lose much (at least from where I'm sitting) with this 2GM adjustment.
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Yes, a cost it should have had because it does a lot of damage, from a buff it never deserved. 2Gm is not a build thematic power because it fits themes, 2GM is most often used because it has all these utility effects that you would normally have to pick multiple powers to get, is negligible on energy costs, and oh yea, does high damage even unranked.
Theme is often an excuse to hide behind picking powers that really do not fit the bill or are you going to try and tell me that people exploiting bugs to use cuncussor beam with 2GM at the same time is build theme?
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And these numbers you speak of are what? I know that if I were to take Two Gun (on Live) and pop it on to my Cascade spiker I would be able to net roughly the same, if not more, damage using Two Gun over Cascade for a fraction of the energy cost. Two Gun as it is on Live is vastly overperforming. Such damage, so little energy cost.
Also, the reduction in damage that I've seen periodically pop up in regards to Two Gun probably has something to do with the now removed defense penetration. Just sayin'.
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2GM was a power you could really pull some shenanigans with getting negative resistance on targets, massively upping damage.
I agree that the energy cost is now (on PTS) a bit high.
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By the way? When a power is used less, that's actually taking away from build diversity(I don't usually hear of a loss of a power helping a theme or build..have to ask around on that one..).
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Yes, a cost it should have had because it does a lot of damage, from a buff it never deserved. 2Gm is not a build thematic power because it fits themes, 2GM is most often used because it has all these utility effects that you would normally have to pick multiple powers to get, is negligible on energy costs, and oh yea, does high damage even unranked.
Theme is often an excuse to hide behind picking powers that really do not fit the bill or are you going to try and tell me that people exploiting bugs to use cuncussor beam with 2GM at the same time is build theme?
I feel like bestial deserves these power cost increases because it was used waay too often(Massacre especially), glad they took that spam away from those who use it instead of using other powers specifically put into the bestial set to preform combos(as it was intended). Personally, I feel Massacre should also get a damage reduction as well, at least a tad bit, spamming gets waay too high numbers over others in its' tier.
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Have a read through and you'll see.
Bottom line is, there is a energy management issue that needs to be addressed, whether it is for the leveling characters or your full-fledged 40 geared to the teeth.
For me, I guess that means I'll just have to go break my toon and stack EGO instead if I want a working 2GM.
I'm not sure this is what the devs had in mind when addressing the much overused power. If it is, well, the writing is on the wall...
May make people consider forgoing Shredded special advs for R3 if they have friends or allies they know that will apply the debuff for them. Makes build considerations a bit more interesting, even if not many more players make that choice.
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After further investigation I can add this to the debate.
1) Burst Shot sucks as a levelling power. Seriously, it does. Take a lvl6 toon down to Westside on PTS, and see why it should be renamed "Pop Gun". It does not do any great damage, the debuff has very little effect on low level enemies, the rate of fire is painful (as it would be for a recycled EB), and it lacks any form of SuperHeroicness - the toon looks more like an MCPD officer than a superhero. Anyone who picked it as an FF power would be running to the Powerhouse to respec. An AT equipped with it would be embarrassing.
Make it a lvl30 nice to have, though - 750 damage, debuff, maybe a stun or interrupt as well - and I'd find a use for it.
I can't tell you whether it works well with the other powers in the Specialist build as (BUG!) the Specialist is broken and you can't choose your third power, or indeed any others.
As regards 2GM:
The devs should be brave enough to outline their plan and ask for proper feedback rather than mixing it up in "next week's patch notes". They'd have got some better ideas.
Here are my thoughts after more testing:
a) They need to find a better levelling power than Burst Shot. It's embarrassing. Dev credibility is on the line, here, as this is going to be a very public patch, and people will be pointing and laughing if you put that out as a replacement.
b) The cylinder effect on new 2GM should be an option/Advantage. To me, it doesn't work in theme (a weapons specialist going all spray-and-pray? nah, superhero pistols are for close range, single target, precise aim) or with playstyle (clear the lower level mobs with Shotgun/Frag Grenade, single target damage on the Master V's/Enforcers). Others may disagree. Give us the choice.
c) remove the faff if you must - 10% DR debuff, Concentration stack, NTTG option - no great loss.
d) Additional energy req is disproportionate to other powers, but easy to work around. They'll laugh at your nerf and every third toon in game will still have 2GM.
e) If you want to make the power less of a go-to without ruining it, you can do two things:
i) - make the damage 2GM does vary by range. For maximum dmg you have to see the whites of their eyes (and block their PBAoE).
ii) Look at other powers and reduce their reliance on Passives from the same tree. Buff the base damage, reduce the Passive damage boost, and extend the range of some of the Passive forms. 2GM works really well because it's not reliant on Targeting Computer to be effective - you can combine it with any number of things and still have an effective toon which is in the sweet spot of good damage/good survivability. I'd like to be able to do that with any number of builds - Wizards that can shoot fireballs, lightning or ice daggers, for example - but I can't because of the limits on passives, which tend to make really mixed-up builds unworkable.
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Stuff like Quarry and to a lesser extent Targeting Computer are fine, along with most of the Melee Offensive passives. They provide at least a smidgen of general survivability (though Unstoppable's kinda weak...) and their damage boosts are generic-enough that they enable a variety of themes.
But Fire Form, Ice Form, Electric Form, Stormbringer, Kinetic Manipulation, Shadow Form, Earth Form, Ego Form?
They're one-dimensional, they don't even provide that much of a damage boost (compared to the boost you get from being able to run in an Offensive Role, anyway) and their frailty (unless up against their specific defensive damage type) is awful.
They aren't even really true to the source inspirations, either. When's the last time you saw Human Torch take a bullet when he was Flame On'd?
They need better, more useful, more engaging mechanics and less of a generic damage-type-flavored damage boost. But that's probably a topic for not-this-patch.
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Human nature being what it is, I think the 2GM spammers will move onto the next highest performing power and you'll soon see people complain that "Power X needs to be nerfed because it's too powerful!"
Admittedly, I'm glad that I'm not a Dev because I can't think of a solution to that which still involves leveling through killing mobs. The faster you can kill stuff, the faster you can level. Therefore, people will want to kill stuff as fast as possible.
-Ogre
If ya wanna tank w/ TGM, it'd be better for balancing if the heal and cylinder were rolled into a separate adv. Then tanks could take both CripC and the special adv, and their TGM's would not be doing near the dmg people should be concerned over, as they're using R1 of it. Or they could take R2, but then they have to pass on some extra non-dps related utility it could provide.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
The Elemental forms need reworking. Buff the power dmg, lower the passive effect, but increase the defensive synergy between form and block of the same type across all damage types. Oh, and introduce an antagonist form of damage to which a power framework is particularly vulnerable, nemesis style (Fire/Ice, Earth/Wind, Celestial/Darkness, etc). Add in those things we all really want (general passives and energy unlocks, less effective than specific tree powers but still workable) and you might actually get some diversity.....
Too many, in my opinion. It's just my opinion. I get tired of seeing so much 2GM all the time.
Dinos, too.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Once again, it was not a loss of power. And when that power is quite possibly the most popular attack in the game, then yes, there will be more build diversity. People would use other powers. There would be more of those, and less of this one. Lessening the gap between the two is the definition of build diversity. But whatever, there's no budging on the matter anymore. The same thing happens every time there are changes like these on the PTS. People over-react, then everyone adjusts very quickly to the changes once they hit live.
your first response: I can maintain the new 2gm without changing any stats
your second response (which you conveniently edited out): i do more damage now with 2gm
your third response: I dont use 2gm on live, so technically i do more dmg with 2gm on pts than on live
do you still not understand why i said you have non-objective views? people were giving legitimate concerns for the power and you swoop in and say 'i can maintain no problem, in fact i do more dmg on test sever!' just to be contrarian (who the hell knows why).
Notice that if your theme is "guy who shoots two pistols", your theme is 100% secure in all parts of the video. No need to resort to magical circles or hybrid role or anything like that.
Also notice that in no part of the video are there long stretches of time where you aren't able to use 2 gun mojo( and in part 2 those short moments where you had to use something else were filled with 6k crits )
Nothing in this video is unrealistic or too demanding for your average player.
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Live - http://imgur.com/5eiIjFf
PTS - http://imgur.com/CoGxHDJ
I didn't bother setting up the entire build because I had the forced respec and I was lazy. Just took enough to get AoPM R3 and 2GM R3.
Spec trees, talents, passive rank (AoPM), power rank (2GM) are all the same.
The specific energy costs aren't a useful comparison (I'm built to spam double-bubbles and Force Cascade, Two-Gun
Mojo is nothing by comparison) but the ratio between the two may be useful.
* Cost is 34.4 for a full maintain on Live with two sources of -10% energy efficiency
* Cost is 79 for a full maintain on PTS without two sources of -10% energy efficiency
Also consider that, on Live, I had both IDF and Swinging running, so that's two sources that contribute to the Live version having a higher energy cost. And yet the PTS version's still quite a bit more than double.
Not sure what the dodge chance difference is, I may have Flippin' active in the first picture.
Damage nerf's more than just the damage split upon multiple targets and the loss of damage penetration.
It isn't a DPS parse, but I figured tooltip damage was the quickest.
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why people are glossing over the fact that optimized ego/dex/con builds with KI will have to drastically change stats just to maintain? the base dmg was nerfed (undocumented), penetration dmg removed, energy cost increased x4.
i'm glad people found out how to maintain 2gm (congrats?) but, that's not the entire point - get your ego up to 400-500 depending on your cost discount gear or get an energy SS with overdrive to do this btw -
the point is, people have to take multiple hits to their dps, as i listed above. it was basically nerfed 2-3 times with a 5% increase in crit chance with burst shot, which i like, since it buffs all munitions powers, not just 2gm.
If anything, they can slightly raise the damage and leave the energy cost as is.
Feel free to watch my video if you doubt me, unless you want to turn a blind eye to objective feedback. Me personally, I don't think "turning on your energy builder" is such a huge concession for people to make, considering that's all you have to do if you still want your 10k hit points.
If anything, I'd say maybe bump the damage back up by maybe 5%.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
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Liking the single blade changes and the new unlocks. Good stuff devs!
im glad kagami does more damage with 2gm on pts. but by your own words, kagami doesnt use 2gm on live, so what the hell are you arguing? just because you use an un-optimized low-dps 2gm build that no one complained about ever, doesn't mean people who are voicing concerns for the power being nerfed multiple times are any less valid. in fact, their opinions are far more important since you dont even use 2gm on live!
with the lowered base damage, removal of default penetration, the damage of 2gm was lowerd to around 15-20% less on optimized builds. this is significantly worse now than, say, lightning arc. this was more than enough of a nerf w/o the drastic increase to energy cost.
42 40s, LTSer.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
the fact that swapping in enough Con to get 10k hit points means that you'll do less dps due to your energy building ticking every now and then than the amount of dps you would do going full on glass cannon? That sounds like balance to me... you know, that thing people keep asking for but start complaining about when it actually happens?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
again i have no clue what you are trying to argue.
what i'm getting from your posts is: make a bad build for 2gm to maintain it, 2gm does more damage than other powers (what is this point?) use your energy builder/holdoutshot/burst shot when 2gm maintain gets low on a more quality build.
again, as i said so many freaking times, you are arguing that maintaining 2gm is possible. what you are failing to argue, is that your build is totally less than optimized. as i said in a prvious response, if everyone ran around with your suboptimal build doing 2k crits, 2gm would never have been nerfed.
As far as I can tell, your biggest beef is that the damage was reduced from the greatly overperforming state on live, to which the only answer is: deal with it, your crutch got nerfed.
As for the video, I showed how easily you can maintain 2gun mojo. Yes, lol, stacking a bunch of ego, taking KI, and Concentration, that's asking so much of you.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
We're not losing a power, not sure where you got that idea. 2 Gun Mojo will still very much be in the game. However, the number of people using it purely because it has the best damage will go down... the number of people using it for a theme will stay the same, because their theme is still the same - if it really is a theme issue, they'll happily swap around some numbers to make the power useable, since what they care about is theme, not numbers, right? I'm not concerned about the former group, because they'll just find a new "best dps" power and then they'll stop whining. And let's be honest, there's a lot of the former group trying to hide in the latter. It's neat when your theme build just happens to be a carbon copy of the game's best dps build isn't it?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Okay, 2 complaints. Mildly annoyed that Steadfast only works with MA. (Why can't we just have one melee EU that works off Rec and the better of Str or Dex. Or just one EU period that works off crits period with some appropriate governing SS) This framework-specific EU nonsense is the reason everyone uses MSA in the first place - stop doing that. Give us general EUs that work around *playstyles* rather than *power frameworks* so we can actually make fuller use of the ability to pull powers from a variety of frameworks. (Yes, one of those two retcons i have to do is make one of my MA toons actually pure MA and not MA/gadget/bestial).
Also: 2gm had it coming. It was clearly the top performing dps power against anything mildly hard to kill (even over lightning arc, which has the disadvantage of rooting you) because of its former penetrating damage. And I'm not convinced this is a nerf - it traded some damage (and gaining any need to care about energy management) for a heck of a lot of utility.