Lightning Arc changes

baelogventure · February 2016

Purposed changes to Lightning Arc.

Move Lightning Arc to Tier 3 (comparable with moving 2GM to tier 3)
Remove the +20% damage with Negative Ions (comparable to removing +10% Resistance penetration from 2GM)
Increase energy cost by 250% (comparable with the 2GM energy increase)
Remove the ability for Lightning Arc to ramp up damage (comparable with 2GM losing it's innate Concentration)
Make Lightning Arc a 2ft Cylinder AOE (comparable to 2GM's change to a 2ft Cylinder AOE)

Add Furious, because why not. Needs more extraneous fluff to justify changes.

Finally, reduce Lightning Arc to 50ft and remove the self-root, because that's the biggest argument I hear people make about 2GM. You're mobile. So make Lightning Arc mobile too, at 50ft, like 2GM.

xcelsior41 · February 2016

baelogventure said:
Purposed changes to Lightning Arc.

Move Lightning Arc to Tier 3 (comparable with moving 2GM to tier 3)
Remove the +20% damage with Negative Ions (comparable to removing +10% Resistance penetration from 2GM)
Increase energy cost by 250% (comparable with the 2GM energy increase)
Remove the ability for Lightning Arc to ramp up damage (comparable with 2GM losing it's innate Concentration)
Make Lightning Arc a 2ft Cylinder AOE (comparable to 2GM's change to a 2ft Cylinder AOE)

Add Furious, because why not. Needs more extraneous fluff to justify changes.

Finally, reduce Lightning Arc to 50ft and remove the self-root, because that's the biggest argument I hear people make about 2GM. You're mobile. So make Lightning Arc mobile too, at 50ft, like 2GM.

No. Except for the remove root(and then, only slightly lower damage) do NOT increase cost at all(or do the rest

) making everything the same means why even HAVE options, really. As soon as I figure how to make a sig on these forums, imma make it: "

BUFF UNDERPREFORMING SETS"

instead of making good ones suck

aiqa · February 2016

I'll tell you the same thing when you were bugging me about this in game. With the new Icicle Spear power you can get around 5k dps, with the new TGM you can get around 5k dps, see the theme? A lightning build can do around 5k dps. That being said, I would not oppose a cost increase on LA against targets affected by ions.

draogn · February 2016

Let's try to avoid breaking more builds by changing a powers tier.

xcelsior41 · February 2016

draogn said:
Let's try to avoid breaking more builds by changing a powers tier.

This.

aiqa said:
I'll tell you the same thing when you were bugging me about this in game. With the new Icicle Spear power you can get around 5k dps, with the new TGM you can get around 5k dps, see the theme? A lightning build can do around 5k dps. That being said, I would not oppose a cost increase on LA against targets affected by ions.

Nope! the point of Ions is to synergize with LA, why oh why do people want everything to be the same?

nepht · February 2016

I wish the whole lightning powerset got a pass over :I

xcelsior41 · February 2016

nepht said:
I wish the whole lightning powerset got a pass over :I

It's a nice set, I have a 40 using it exclusively for attacks..I mean, I wish say, gadgeteering got a look-over, or maybe..MA or something to increase their damaging abilities or what have you?

areyoukiddinme · February 2016

"BUFF UNDERPREFORMING SETS"

instead of making good ones suck

"

Couldn't agree more

mijjestic · February 2016

I sense a wee slight bit of sarcasm from OP.

sterga · February 2016

I'd rather not see a trend like with what happened to 2gun. Why not just leave the tiers alone and tweak the powers that are op to be in line with whatever this magical standard is? Moving stuff around and adding new stuff to replace created gaps seems like a bunch of unneeded work for no compelling reason.

christy300 · February 2016

LA reduce to 50 FT are you kidding don't even think about it LA is good as it is so,

roughbearmattach · February 2016

Playing content like Gravitar or TA reveals how rough a self-rooting maintain is. It really is a significant drawback.

baelogventure · February 2016

roughbearmattach said:
Playing content like Gravitar or TA reveals how rough a self-rooting maintain is. It really is a significant drawback.

Glad you agree, it's why LA gets changed to a mobile power in my suggestion.

xcelsior41 · February 2016

baelogventure said:

roughbearmattach said:
Playing content like Gravitar or TA reveals how rough a self-rooting maintain is. It really is a significant drawback.
Glad you agree, it's why LA gets changed to a mobile power in my suggestion.

That's fine, but the rest? nooot a good idea..

baelogventure · February 2016

What's good for 2GM is good for Lightning Arc.

christy300 · February 2016

baelogventure said:
What's good for 2GM is good for Lightning Arc.

you are wrong in all the line....

crypticbuxom · February 2016

The changes to TGM reminds me of the changes to Desert and Canada. Pushing it to later giving less early options that in the end result means absolutely nothing but hurt the flow of the game as a whole.

I like the TGM change ONLY if they energy costs is reduced and the base damage itself isn't nerfed.

championshewolf · February 2016

sterga wrote: »

I'd rather not see a trend like with what happened to 2gun. Why not just leave the tiers alone and tweak the powers that are op to be in line with whatever this magical standard is? Moving stuff around and adding new stuff to replace created gaps seems like a bunch of unneeded work for no compelling reason.

Because you do not fix power balance by introducing more broken powers. It's high time people learned that fact.

avianos · February 2016

EDIT: Nevermind, Not worth it

Unknown · February 2016

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xcelsior41 · February 2016

gradii said:
Obviously a troll post by the OP.

Dude this type of BS cropped up for Regen, since the devs did it to 2G, everyone wants to be a dev(surpise surprise

) and mess up all the good powers.

Unknown · February 2016

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pantagruel01 · February 2016

sterga said:
I'd rather not see a trend like with what happened to 2gun. Why not just leave the tiers alone and tweak the powers that are op to be in line with whatever this magical standard is?

Because 2GM with stats appropriate to its original tier and energy cost would provoke just as large a storm of complaints?

purin1 · February 2016

xcelsior41 said:

Dude this type of BS cropped up for Regen, since the devs did it to 2G, everyone wants to be a dev(surpise surprise ) and mess up all the good powers.

The comment about Regen being OP was from the same person who started this thread. He's been making passive-aggressive/sarcastic remarks ever since the TGM changes came about. No one is seriously calling for more nerfs.

Unknown · February 2016

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vonqball · February 2016

Jeebs.. someone's feelin a tad salty.

xcelsior41 · February 2016

gradii said:

purin1 said:

xcelsior41 said:

Dude this type of BS cropped up for Regen, since the devs did it to 2G, everyone wants to be a dev(surpise surprise ) and mess up all the good powers.
The comment about Regen being OP was from the same person who started this thread. He's been making passive-aggressive/sarcastic remarks ever since the TGM changes came about. No one is seriously calling for more nerfs.
If he's doing this being sarcastic becuase he's upset, I don't blame him. I too have a favorite character who will likely end up abandoned if the ridiculous new cost of 2gm does not come down significantly.

vonqball said:
Jeebs.. someone's feelin a tad salty.

purin1 said:

xcelsior41 said:

Dude this type of BS cropped up for Regen, since the devs did it to 2G, everyone wants to be a dev(surpise surprise ) and mess up all the good powers.
The comment about Regen being OP was from the same person who started this thread. He's been making passive-aggressive/sarcastic remarks ever since the TGM changes came about. No one is seriously calling for more nerfs.

Oh really?. Read the OP, then read some comments down in the regen thread, someone said regen should get the 2G treatment(y'know the one where it completely changed a power mechanic, yeah, that one

).
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline/#/discussion/1204394/thoughts-on-regeneration
So, yeah. And seriously, "No one's asking for more nerfs" So, what you mean to tell me is, both these threads, plus a few other threads recently in Combat&Powers and Gen. Discussion(rarely), don't exist and no one ask for nerfs?. Look around, you'll see plenty. Might not interest you because you may not use that particular set or care for that power, but the asking for reduction is most definitely there.(LA changes thread comes to mind in this very subsection.)

Passive-aggressive, Nono, more aggressive-aggressive, at least when it comes to powers. People think they know whats best for the game(Not saying I do). I simply want under-preformers brought up to "Over-preformers" standards and mobs adjusted accordingly. In a sense, I could defeat a group with Illumination+CC, does that warrent a tier change/mechanics overhaul? No. See, to some, it doesn't matter because, "I don't use it as often/have it as a staple single target in my build, so what's the big deal"? And that leads to telepathy level of crap for a power. Take Crowd Control for example, people whined and moaned because of PvP(needed it's own adjustment), so the devs took the easy way out and destroyed it, completely. AD/AO cycling? Easy way out and nerf CDR and INT

(Extending the time between cycling AD/AO's would of sufficed).

I am very salty, because it starts with one power, then a whole damn set gets destroyed, juuust like telepathy.(Not saying this is happening specifically to Munitions, just across the board in general).

vonqball · February 2016

Ah yes, don't nerf one thing... buff everything else. Never get tired of hearing this one for some reason.

xcelsior41 · February 2016

vonqball said:
Ah yes, don't nerf one thing... buff everything else. Never get tired of hearing this one for some reason.

Same thing when I hear y'all pine for nerfs

raighn · February 2016

As much as I don't agree with the degree of the change to 2GM I do agree that the power needed to be nerfed... However, LA does not need the same treatment. LA doesn't do nearly as much damage as 2GM and requires maintenance & setup to get to it's top damage output. 2GM on the other hand does far more damage and is/was self sufficient. There is zero effort involved in setting up or maintaining setup for 2GM's damage, just target and spam.

Now for a direct breakdown of the OPs suggestion:

baelogventure said:
Purposed changes to Lightning Arc.

Move Lightning Arc to Tier 3 (comparable with moving 2GM to tier 3)

Unnessisary change, and if this is done then either A) Electricity would need a new T1 power to take it's place or

Chain Lightning would need to be seriously buffed (not to say it doesn't already need one)

baelogventure said:
Remove the +20% damage with Negative Ions (comparable to removing +10% Resistance penetration from 2GM)

Not comparable in the least. In actual practice against an enemy 2GMs damage will always soar above LA's damage even if the base hits are the same. When you add in NI to the target for a buff to LA your 20% damage buff hits their resistance and is quickly negated.

baelogventure said:
Increase energy cost by 250% (comparable with the 2GM energy increase)

2GMs energy increase was due to it's new place as a T3 power, though the degree of the increase may be a bit extreme. LA (and the whole electricity power set) has a standard pattern of being low energy cost. The main set mechanic of electtricity is energy after all. When used in-set the Matter-Energy-Union advantage on Electric Sheath results in a rather effecient health buffer with minimal impact on your energy pool, while with most other powersets that advantage could quickly result in running out of energy and being unable to attack.

baelogventure said:
Remove the ability for Lightning Arc to ramp up damage (comparable with 2GM losing it's innate Concentration)

Actually the rampup of damage on LA is one of it's current balance factors. With 2GM you could full maintain till your full stacked on Conc then tap spam it if you wished and your total DPS would take minimal impact over full or partial maintain of 2GM at 8stack Conc. LA on the other hand must be full maintained to reach it's maximum damage potential tap spamming it will result in a noticable drop in DPS due to the inate damage ramp of the power.

baelogventure said:
Make Lightning Arc a 2ft Cylinder AOE (comparable to 2GM's change to a 2ft Cylinder AOE)

Nope... Lightning already has it's cylinder AoE, Gigabolt... plus LA can already arc to enemies when hitting targets affected by NI as is... unesisary changes are unessisary.

baelogventure said:
Add Furious, because why not. Needs more extraneous fluff to justify changes.

"Why not"? Honestly I have no problem adding a HoT buff to any power in the game... but let me ask you... Why?

baelogventure said:
Finally, reduce Lightning Arc to 50ft and remove the self-root, because that's the biggest argument I hear people make about 2GM. You're mobile. So make Lightning Arc mobile too, at 50ft, like 2GM.

No, NO, NO. There are too few good 100ft ranged attacks in the game as is. Don't you dare touch LAs range.

sterga · February 2016

"Because you do not fix power balance by introducing more broken powers. It's high time people learned that fact."

I didn't say anything about introducing new, broken powers. I think you misquoted. It's much easier to copy/paste stuff. Quote button seems janky on these forums.

"Because 2GM with stats appropriate to its original tier and energy cost would provoke just as large a storm of complaints?"

It's not like there isn't a shortage of complaints now. Not a compelling reason since it's what happened anyway.

baelogventure · February 2016

raighn said:
I hate 2GM, feel free to nerf that into the ground, but DON'T YOU DARE TOUCH MUH LIGHTNING ARC!!! (which is exceptionally comparable to every ranged single target Maintain, including 2GM)

Why you hatin' fam? Bias showing much? Or is denial not just a river in Egypt?

Maybe if you did some math you'd easily see that Lightning Arc and 2GM do nearly the exact same damage on live.

What's good for 2GM is good for Lightning Arc.

Now to refute your specific points.

1. Why would Chain Lightning need to be replaced or buffed? It works fine as it is. It's not Lightning Arc levels of OP, but then neither is Burst Shot (the new dual pistol power) not 2GM levels of OP.

2. Except not. Lightning Arc has been proven, you know, with MATH to be equal to other ranged single-target maintains in terms of DPS, which includes 2GM, Assault Rifle, Pulse Beam Rifle, TK Assault.

3. No, really, it's energy cost was increased because it was made Tier 3? Make Lightning Arc Tier 3 and you have an excuse for increasing it's energy cost by 250% as well.

4. Except the ramp-up change was actually invoking balance, since the ramp-up damage is obviously an old and outdated mechanic with no place in the modern game. Remove it's ability to ramp up damage, and it's forced to do consistent damage.

5. Except Munitions already has a cylinder AOE, it's called Gatling Gun. But they made 2GM one anyone, so for balance the same treatment needs to be made to Lightning Arc, including damage loss when hitting multiple targets.

6. Balance reasons. I mean, that's why they added Furious to 2GM. The devs somehow thought it would make up for being nerfed by leaps and bounds of magnitude.

7. But there's always 1 consistent complaint I've kept hearing from 2GM haters. It doesn't self-root. Well now neither does Lightning Arc, but there's a price for mobility for a power that does THAT much damage. It's called range.

Unknown · February 2016

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raighn · February 2016

You do realize he intentionally misquoted me in attempt to goad me into a flame war.

spinnytop · February 2016

Geez, someone has a big boner for nerfing a certain someone's powers ever since his own favorite crutch power got nerfed.

spinnytop · February 2016

roughbearmattach said:
Playing content like Gravitar or TA reveals how rough a self-rooting maintain is. It really is a significant drawback.

Agreed, that's why LA gets to be so efficient and high damage, because there are significant trade-offs for its use. If its energy were to be raised to combat PA toggle abuse, then it would need to be compensated in some way. I'd like to see it stay as a self-root and instead get something else neat - mainly because just removing the self root is kinda boring.

Maybe it gains some sort of neat shield effect. Like Maintaining the power grows a shield on you, and full maintains give you a a stack of a buff that scales the shield up.

spinnytop · February 2016

xcelsior41 said:
I simply want under-preformers brought up to "Over-preformers" standards and mobs adjusted accordingly.

Not gonna happen unless you're gonna pay for the additional staff they'd need to do this in a reasonable amount of time. Considering the over performers are both a minority of the powers, and in several cases are over performers because of exploits, it's just not feasible to bring everything else up to their level. It's simply more sensible to bring them in line, than to raise every other power and then raise every NPC in the game up, because the first one is hugely less time consuming and less prone to messing everything up even more. Just imagine if halfway through that process the devs were called away to work on some other game.

All you need to do to see this is to stop being so in love with your current numbers. Don't worry, in the long run you'll realize you never needed them to begin with.

spinnytop · February 2016

sterga said:

It's not like there isn't a shortage of complaints now. Not a compelling reason since it's what happened anyway.

It's funny. The "nerf slayers" go ape-**** about nerfs for a long time... and now the complaint is that they didn't nerf a power into the ground? Haha.

spinnytop · February 2016

baelogventure said:

Bro, you do realize that even if you got your way and LA "got the 2GM treatment" it wouldn't get you the revenge you're hoping for, right? She would just build around the new mechanics of the power and make it work, because unlike you she knows what she's doing, she doesn't rely on ez crutch powers, and she isn't a big whiny cry baby like you.

roughbearmattach · February 2016

spinnytop said:

Maybe it gains some sort of neat shield effect. Like Maintaining the power grows a shield on you, and full maintains give you a a stack of a buff that scales the shield up.

I think it would be neat if it added a repel around you while the power is maintained, keeping enemies at bay (but not the target of the power itself). Maybe repelled enemies would have a chance at getting Negative Ions.

xcelsior41 · February 2016

spinnytop said:

xcelsior41 said:
I simply want under-preformers brought up to "Over-preformers" standards and mobs adjusted accordingly.
Not gonna happen unless you're gonna pay for the additional staff they'd need to do this in a reasonable amount of time. Considering the over performers are both a minority of the powers, and in several cases are over performers because of exploits, it's just not feasible to bring everything else up to their level. It's simply more sensible to bring them in line, than to raise every other power and then raise every NPC in the game up, because the first one is hugely less time consuming and less prone to messing everything up even more. Just imagine if halfway through that process the devs were called away to work on some other game.

All you need to do to see this is to stop being so in love with your current numbers. Don't worry, in the long run you'll realize you never needed them to begin with.

Let's hope you can keep adhere to that last sentence as well, assuming(and they will) take your current numbers on builds not using FoTM.

. And buff every other power? See, what you fail to realize is that this is just gonna go in a big ol' circle, those other powers will be good, then they will be deemed an "exploit"(even with new mobs cause let's face it we know buffs and nerfs alike from cryptic are uh..extreme, shall we say?) then step 1.) repeats infinitely. A shame though, CO staff is so small.

I think some of them may already be working as well on NW or STO, maybe?.

flowcyto · February 2016

Although this topic is a bit bitter, mine as well use it to look at LArc balance atm. I dun want to make a new thread for this.

Looking at the ST ramp-up maintains:

PBR: 298.67 dps (not counting the crit/severity increase per tick), 6 eps
AR w/ MED: 298.5 dps (-20% since MED takes 2 adv points), 5.94 eps
TKA: 309.87 dps (not counting the crit boost from EL stacks), 6 eps
LArc: 363.34 dps (not counting NI debuff), 8 eps

So, LArc does about 20% more dps than the other ramp up ST maintains, but costs about 33% more. Issue there, though, is the NI debuff boosting LArc to ~45% more overall dps than the others, and you'd likely want NI in there anyways when using Ionic Reverb.

Now, PBR has the crit/severity thing, but it also has no lockdown whatsoever. TKA has the crit boost, and can be buffed by ERuin's adv and/or Mental Storm- but same deal w/ the no lockdown. AR w/ MED allows slow movement and has a stronger first tick for taps or if ya get interrupted, and can also take adv of Burst Shot's debuff now.

PBR could maybe use a bit of love, since it doesn't have an easy debuff to boost its dps like AR, TKA, and LArc have now. I'm unsure about LArc atm, though in general I don't like debuffs that boost dmg to be too strong.

aiqa · February 2016

Since we are now at a point where we are starting to talk about actual numbers I'll repost this parse for munitions dps here. And I'd like to see someone make a lightning build that can spam all the lightning powers without ever using your energy builder like this munitions build can for munition powers, and that can do better dps.

flowcyto · February 2016

Yeah I don't think the the latest pass re-buffing TGM's 1-target dmg closer to its old dps is really a good move. ~87% of the old base tick dmg, +15% from Burst Shot eliminates the dps gap that was once there- only reason the old TGM would still pull ahead then is the 10% piercing aspect.

Just so I can get clarity, though, Aqia, what are you looking for in balance, say, relative to TGM and LArc? For them to have similar optimal dps and energy consumption? And if so, which one's benchmark would you use?

Unknown · February 2016

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aiqa · February 2016

flowcyto said:
Yeah I don't think the the latest pass re-buffing TGM's 1-target dmg closer to its old dps is really a good move. ~87% of the old base tick dmg, +15% from Burst Shot eliminates the dps gap that was once there- only reason the old TGM would still pull ahead then is the 10% piercing aspect.

Just so I can get clarity, though, Aqia, what are you looking for in balance, say, relative to TGM and LArc? For them to have similar optimal dps and energy consumption? And if so, which one's benchmark would you use?

Individual powers need to be balanced, but also related to in set synergies. So what I am looking for in balance is powers needing to do about equal damage if their (in set) synergies are fully utilized. When you only look at the dps of a single power, you see tgm not really being that much better than LA, but when you see at what builds you can use to spam munitions compared to lightning, fire, force, etc, and the other problems you can run into when trying to use the full sets, it is obvious why TGM is still overperforming.

So benchmarks are builds that keep all this in mind, which is not exactly easy. But I do think that is the way to do, make a build using powers from 1 set (with obvious out of set AO's and synergies), and see how they compare to the same things from other sets when you get your energy good enough to actually use all those powers. Then see if there are any inset outliers that need their energy cost increased (like powers that do the highest in-set damage, but have comparatively low energy management requirements) or damage buffed or lowered.

Unknown · February 2016

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aiqa · February 2016

gradii said:

aiqa said:

flowcyto said:
Yeah I don't think the the latest pass re-buffing TGM's 1-target dmg closer to its old dps is really a good move. ~87% of the old base tick dmg, +15% from Burst Shot eliminates the dps gap that was once there- only reason the old TGM would still pull ahead then is the 10% piercing aspect.

Just so I can get clarity, though, Aqia, what are you looking for in balance, say, relative to TGM and LArc? For them to have similar optimal dps and energy consumption? And if so, which one's benchmark would you use?
Individual powers need to be balanced, but also related to in set synergies. So what I am looking for in balance is powers needing to do about equal damage if their (in set) synergies are fully utilized. When you only look at the dps of a single power, you see tgm not really being that much better than LA, but when you see at what builds you can use to spam munitions compared to lightning, fire, force, etc, and the other problems you can run into when trying to use the full sets, it is obvious why TGM is still overperforming.

So benchmarks are builds that keep all this in mind, which is not exactly easy. But I do think that is the way to do, make a build using powers from 1 set (with obvious out of set AO's and synergies), and see how they compare to the same things from other sets when you get your energy good enough to actually use all those powers. Then see if there are any inset outliers that need their energy cost increased (like powers that do the highest in-set damage, but have comparatively low energy management requirements) or damage buffed or lowered.
Abusive energy cost increases ALWAYS hurt build diversity. Powers should not only work in "Sets" there needs to be a great deal of cross set synergy with all powersets.

If someone believes a power to be OP the best option is almost always to either change its damage or mechanics, NOT make it have a prohibitive cost.

Characterizing something as abusive will not really convince me (or anyone else).

And build diversity is hurt most of all by having a power that does top end dps, while not having any significant disadvantages and hardly cost any energy.

flowcyto · February 2016

Well, the issue w/ energy costs in particular is a) how much should, really, tiers matter there? (I'd argue not much, but at least the old devs seemed to think it should), and b) some sets are designed to have more energy stats naturally, so cross-powerset balancing is even trickier there. Like, Electricity is built upon some degree of End and having more energy reserves naturally due to Ionic Reverb and Elec Form's equilibrium boost- vs. a set like Muni that's all about the crits and Ego, if remaining in-set. it would be natural, then, for Elec powers to have higehr avg energy costs, but then that can potentially hurt 'diversity' by making those Elec attacks harder to accommodate out of set.

So I guess it comes down to which is more important: intra-set balance (which, in a balanced state leads to optimized sets having similar outputs, even if the means are different) or inter-set balance (which, in a balanced state allows easier transference of powers, but at the cost of distinctiveness between the sets)?

xcelsior41 · February 2016

gradii said:

aiqa said:
Since we are now at a point where we are starting to talk about actual numbers I'll repost this parse for munitions dps here. And I'd like to see someone make a lightning build that can spam all the lightning powers without ever using your energy builder like this munitions build can for munition powers, and that can do better dps.

But using the 2gm change as a benchmark for balance is like using Charlie Sheen as a benchmark for sanity.

I like this

. The funny thing is, that all of y'all are forgetting(and I'm not saying I am one but):Your. NOT. a. DEVELOPER.

. If you are? Care to give us a sneak-peak at upcoming content and powers?

Making all these widely generalized assumptions about whats good for the game, with the moniker of "Build Diversity: or whatever the hell you wanna use for your assumptions when in actuality the changes you propose have the possibility to anger more than help. I want you ~~wanna-be devs~~ 'concerned players' to go into zone at any time you choose, and do a live poll(that's right, time to back your madness

). Of course this will require a YouTube video

. This isn't to say the devs will care or what have you, no this is because I've seen plenty of post referencing the community as a whole in proposed changes in this subsection and sometimes PTS updates as well.

"It'll be good for the game"-Oh yeah? Prove it. Anyone can parse a number and anyone can state some 'facts', but guess what? None of that matters to joe-schmoe playing his FF or AT who hears about your idea for a change to a power(or, better yet, when said idea is brought to the PTS by a Dev.). He may like it, he may hate it, he may stay, he may leave. Who knows?. Of course you can't gauge the whole community. Just do a randomized sample of say...50 players in RenCen.(Seems easy enough). If you get a lot of support(

has to be completely random, btw). Then I have nothing to argue against and will support you as well.

You: generalized you, btw, just in case anyone was confused.

Oh! Before any of you decide to give a "smart" response to this here post: Teach me how to make a video and I'll do it my damn self.
"Sure seem butthurt of a proposed power change"-No I'm aggravated by the sheer ignorance, it's baffling.
"Blahablah something about how lower powers will bring us in-line with mobs and then buffing other powers will help yadayada"- BS. See, here's the problem with that one. Your going in a circle. The actually preforming powers will become crap, the under-preformers will become great(woot woot!) but then, in that same breath, the under-preformers get looked at for what they can do now thanks to buffs and then..well, you see where that's going.
"These nerfs actually provide balance, sorry your FoTM got neutered"-Look here wanna-be dev, I hate repeating abilities. Hell, I hate repetition in general, for that to be my FoTM..wouldn't..wouldn't it have to be on every toon I make?.
"It kills things faster than my telepath or what have you", oh damn well, grow up and get over it. This is PvE we're talking about NOT PvP.
"It's not fair because of the tier it's in"-So? Tell the devs the other power needs to be beef'd up. You think because you took away a power it'll make people appreciate the alternative? The alternatives were **** to begin with, why else would they have picked what they did?.
(To go with the top, because going in circles is the theme of these topics): "They chose what they did because it vastly over-preforms" Oh really? You know every players motives for choosing a power?? Are...um..are you psychic?

No? Oh then guess what? You. Don't.
"I think the change is deserved"-Okay that's fine, that's your prerogative on the situation, and that's cool beans.

"[Some attempt at a witty alternative to this post goes here]"- Okay, okay..I see, very interest-yeah um, read what I said earlier, see "Not. A. DEVELOPER." for some insights if your having issues.

"[Strawman about FoTM goes here]"-No. FoTM means it's everywhere on everyone's characters. Unless I have it on all my toons(I can showcase them if you want?) or you (Generalized) have it on all your characters, or joe-schmoe has it on his characters, it's technically not a FoTM. See earlier in post about tiers and power-choices for issues over comparisons between sets and tiers

.
"You don't need high numbers, after these nerfs everything will balance itself out", Okay, for this one I direct you to my beginning topic(kinda). You don't know how this will turn out, I don't know how it'll turn out. But I can tell you you'll want to consult the actual community before hand(friends are good, but they'll mostly agree and make you feel good :kissing: . Best to go raw, see earlier in this post for what I mean.). Vehicle nerf, for example: lotta people thought it wasn't that bad, lotta people left in game. This was counter-acted by the free FF thing which was great!. But the point still stand, what you think is minor, can actually provide a sizable effect.
"Consult the community in-game? What does that matter of course there gonna argue against their FoTM or whatever being taken/changed"-Maybe. But even if they do? Some will be honest about it, and offer some interesting ways to get around completely changing a power or bringing it to uselessness that could be beneficial for the community as a whole(yes, even you!

).
"So-and-So got a 'nerf' and I'm using it just fine why the complaints"-Y'know, this is the most asinine BS response I have ever seen. Okay great, it works for you. Things to consider though:

Your experience with the set as whole/that power(if none then see #2)
Your experience with the game as a whole
Your experience with builds(You make them, right? Your playing something and it's not complete crap, so it's a build.)

Then, assess this to the rest of the gaming community and the varying degrees of skill.(Good rule of thumb is to target new/un-experienced players and ATs).
"If my build can do it and I'm not that good than everyone can

"-WRONG. You may consider yourself a casual, but there will always be people not as experienced(or more(do not try to straw man that statement right there please

)) than you, and may have expressed an interest in whatever it was that was adjusted, but the adjustment could make it out of their skill-level. "Well then they need to learn so-and-so or do whatever"-WoW. That's how WoW thinks. This is not WoW.
"If a power is over-preforming(stop here), your telling me your okay with leaving it as is?"-See, this is why I put "stop here". I stop reading there because..well see #2 aaand the hypothetical about not being fair in it's tier or compared to other abilities.

.
"Bringing more powers to ridiculous levels like the over-preformers will create more in-balance, you can't just beef up mobs to counter-act that"-I'm no dev, so I'm not going to( and my apologies if I have in this thread or another) make that definitive statement. Please see waaaay back in the beginning of this post as to ways to get solidarity on this issue.

Side-Note: To help receive a non-biased answer, I believe(though, you can't 100% eliminate bias(do NOT strawman this statement please)) this question will yield a good answer:

"[Your proposed change to..whatever goes here]; What do you think?"-To whoever your asking. Make sure this is being recorded, charts will only go so far, I believe. As was put by the almighty rules of the interwebz; "Pics or it didn't happen"(in this case, video

)

[More to come if any reply to this

]
I just had another though: It's not said, but I think a lot of concern is not about how it will do in PvE, so much as how it will do in PvP. Well..I always think PvP needs its' own mechanics seperate from PvE, as powers in PvE is like the red-shirt of the game, attacked and killed because of a PvP incident or issue with the power in PvP.(Not always true but still.)

By the way: not directed at you gradii

aiqa · February 2016

flowcyto said:
Well, the issue w/ energy costs in particular is a) how much should, really, tiers matter there? (I'd argue not much, but at least the old devs seemed to think it should), and b) some sets are designed to have more energy stats naturally, so cross-powerset balancing is even trickier there. Like, Electricity is built upon some degree of End and having more energy reserves naturally due to Ionic Reverb and Elec Form's equilibrium boost- vs. a set like Muni that's all about the crits and Ego, if remaining in-set. it would be natural, then, for Elec powers to have higehr avg energy costs, but then that can potentially hurt 'diversity' by making those Elec attacks harder to accommodate out of set.

So I guess it comes down to which is more important: intra-set balance (which, in a balanced state leads to optimized sets having similar outputs, even if the means are different) or inter-set balance (which, in a balanced state allows easier transference of powers, but at the cost of distinctiveness between the sets)?

Sets have clearly intended synergies, if you want to ignore all those you should not be surprised your performance will suffer a bit. Freeform does not mean "just tack on any power you like and ignore any synergy". Also, like I said in my response to gradi, diversity is not getting worse by some additional requirements to your build if you chose to use some specific powers. Without (energy) requirements everyone will just use a str/con/? build since those stats have the best inherent properties, and everyone used the same setup is exactly the opposite of diversity.

xcelsior41 said:
I like this . The funny thing is, that all of y'all are forgetting(and I'm not saying I am one but):Your. NOT. a. DEVELOPER.
. If you are? Care to give us a sneak-peak at upcoming content and powers?

What does it matter who is or who is not a dev, this is not a dev-only forum. And the devs are explicitly asking for feedback, so I am not sure why you are surprised at players giving feedback, or saw the need posting a rant against players doing that.

Lightning Arc changes

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BUFF UNDERPREFORMING SETS"