Well, the issue w/ energy costs in particular is a) how much should, really, tiers matter there? (I'd argue not much, but at least the old devs seemed to think it should), and b) some sets are designed to have more energy stats naturally, so cross-powerset balancing is even trickier there. Like, Electricity is built upon some degree of End and having more energy reserves naturally due to Ionic Reverb and Elec Form's equilibrium boost- vs. a set like Muni that's all about the crits and Ego, if remaining in-set. it would be natural, then, for Elec powers to have higehr avg energy costs, but then that can potentially hurt 'diversity' by making those Elec attacks harder to accommodate out of set.
So I guess it comes down to which is more important: intra-set balance (which, in a balanced state leads to optimized sets having similar outputs, even if the means are different) or inter-set balance (which, in a balanced state allows easier transference of powers, but at the cost of distinctiveness between the sets)?
Sets have clearly intended synergies, if you want to ignore all those you should not be surprised your performance will suffer a bit. Freeform does not mean "just tack on any power you like and ignore any synergy". Also, like I said in my response to gradi, diversity is not getting worse by some additional requirements to your build if you chose to use some specific powers. Without (energy) requirements everyone will just use a str/con/? build since those stats have the best inherent properties, and everyone used the same setup is exactly the opposite of diversity.
I like this . The funny thing is, that all of y'all are forgetting(and I'm not saying I am one but):Your. NOT. a. DEVELOPER.
. If you are? Care to give us a sneak-peak at upcoming content and powers?
What does it matter who or who is not a dev, this is not a dev-only forum. And the devs are explicitly asking for feedback, so I am not sure why you are surprised at players giving feedback, or saw the need posting a rant against players doing that.
It matters because threads like these try and get matter-of-fact with changes that's why. Only looking at a number isn't how you gauge whether or not something's a good idea, hence why I get angry at these "suggestions"-their more or less this needs (keyword there: need) to happen because this parse or this guy uses it along with that guy and that guy. So what? That's their prerogative. This is more or less a thing because it's popular, spinned to say it's going to end the end be good for diversity. See the part of my post about making a video proposing these changes for more info As far synergy goes, building on a given power is good synergy because you want to maximize. Being forced to? Bad.
Since we are now at a point where we are starting to talk about actual numbers I'll repost this parse for munitions dps here. And I'd like to see someone make a lightning build that can spam all the lightning powers without ever using your energy builder like this munitions build can for munition powers, and that can do better dps.
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
So, because things are stated in a matter-of-fact way one needs to be a dev?
And why pray tell should I spend time and energy for someone that has been less than courteous? I am not posting my thoughts on balance to convince just you, if you chose not to believe a screenshot of a damage parse I don't really care.
And also you can perfectly well run a tgm build without using the intended synergies from the munitions set. But doing so without ever needing your energy builder is more tricky. So that is completely in line with your requirement of it being usable with lower performance.
I do apologize for the..crass way my post was put, but not the message of: You are not a dev, and instead of giving what you think will happen, gauge the community, the lifeblood of this game. The devs seem to be taking many suggestions no matter what type of consequences they may have(some actually are positive but their usually not nerfs).
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
For me this is starting to get a little akward. Why should I, as a non-dev, consider what the community thinks about something I consider to be a problem? And who of the community should I exactly consider? We have people here with all sorts of opinions. And why are you even asking me to do all these things?
And the devs we do have can think for themselves, if they take a suggestion that only means they agree with it not that they are easily influenced. From what I've seen they have very strong opinions about how things should be and how things should be balanced. Adjustments made to anything after it's been released to PTS have been small tweaks, some for the better some for the worse, but most for the better.
Well, the issue w/ energy costs in particular is a) how much should, really, tiers matter there? (I'd argue not much, but at least the old devs seemed to think it should), and b) some sets are designed to have more energy stats naturally, so cross-powerset balancing is even trickier there. Like, Electricity is built upon some degree of End and having more energy reserves naturally due to Ionic Reverb and Elec Form's equilibrium boost- vs. a set like Muni that's all about the crits and Ego, if remaining in-set. it would be natural, then, for Elec powers to have higehr avg energy costs, but then that can potentially hurt 'diversity' by making those Elec attacks harder to accommodate out of set.
So I guess it comes down to which is more important: intra-set balance (which, in a balanced state leads to optimized sets having similar outputs, even if the means are different) or inter-set balance (which, in a balanced state allows easier transference of powers, but at the cost of distinctiveness between the sets)?
Sets have clearly intended synergies, if you want to ignore all those you should not be surprised your performance will suffer a bit. Freeform does not mean "just tack on any power you like and ignore any synergy". Also, like I said in my response to gradi, diversity is not getting worse by some additional requirements to your build if you chose to use some specific powers. Without (energy) requirements everyone will just use a str/con/? build since those stats have the best inherent properties, and everyone used the same setup is exactly the opposite of diversity.
I'm inclined to agree w/ that generally. Though mixing sets shouldn't have high penalties either. There is a balance to be had there. I think it may lie in making the earlier and cheaper options a bit closer to the higher-tiered energy-heavy ones. So an optimal build still has the ability to excel, but a person mixing sets for theme could take the lower-end option and still get satisfactory results.
I guess to relate it back to LArc: it'd be like making Chain Lightning more of ST dps power, and lessening the gap between it an LArc, while keeping LArc clearly superior for in-set builds (ofc, issue there is they somewhat do diff things, though they necc don't have to). If ur mixed build really dogmatically wanted to take LArc for some reason, then it not being optimized would be a penalty ya just have to accept for putting more arbitrary restrictions on it, but there'd be a workable alternative from that same set otherwise.
So the answer from me, I guess- more options for all, but a somewhat universal system that balanced dps, eps, tier, lockdown, CC/utility, etc for each power. Both low investment, lower reward options and higher investment, higher reward options for each set. We kinda have that going now, but its a bit patchy and could be revised overall for consistency.
If testing the game is more fun than playing it, and you're looking at the game forum thinking god, is this actually what the players want? then it's probably time to cancel the sub and look for another game, isn't it? Good grief.
Let's hope you can keep adhere to that last sentence as well, assuming(and they will) take your current numbers on builds not using FoTM. . And buff every other power? See, what you fail to realize is that this is just gonna go in a big ol' circle, those other powers will be good, then they will be deemed an "exploit"(even with new mobs cause let's face it we know buffs and nerfs alike from cryptic are uh..extreme, shall we say?) then step 1.) repeats infinitely. A shame though, CO staff is so small. I think some of them may already be working as well on NW or STO, maybe?.
I won't have any issues, because I actually like the idea of a balanced game more than I like the idea of easily being able to have tons of ez power at my disposal. I prefer interesting building over ez building. Case in point: after the 2gm changes go live I'm thinking of making a dual pistols build, because now the idea interests me - before these changes, the idea of being a stand-n-spam-2gm, stand-n-aoe-lead-tempest build wasn't appealing, even if it did do a billion more dps than the build I was using.
What you fail to realize is that powers aren't deemed exploits because they perform well. They're deemed exploits because people are exploiting glitchy design flaws with those powers. The reason for 2GM's cost increase isn't related only to 2GM's own performance.
PS - If you go into zone and do a live poll, you won't find out anything about what's good for the game. If I go in zone and ask "Hey guys, who wants everything to be free, and all damage and healing for players to be doubled? " you'll get a whole lot of yes responses. You don't have to be a developer to realize that that's worthless feedback. If you really believe your "You're not a developer" line, then lead by example, and stop giving your opinions. After all, you're not a developer.
PS2 - if you like I can make more videos giving practical examples of why you're wrong about everything, but you'll have to convince me why it's worth it to take hours out of my play time to convince someone like you.
Same here K? And boy! for someone who "Didn't read my post'", What the hell did you respond for? And why did you respond to my questions or my post in depth? See, this is when basic understanding becomes a thing, and understanding what your saying is key (You can work on those, right? )
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
LSame here K? And boy! for someone who "Didn't read my post'", What the hell did you respond for? And why did you respond to my questions or my post in depth? See, this is when basic understanding becomes a thing, and understanding what your saying is key (You can work on those, right? )
So you're upset that I actually responded to you? k.
Edit: Y'know, nevermind, these horrendous changes will never come to be, and after some thought, I realize a lot of you aren't actually pining for this LA nerf(or so I think ). Misguided accusations and all, my deepest apologies.
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
If a power costs too much energy for ones build to effectively use, the result is the player simply not taking that power. Themes get wrecked regardless of whether that power would have worked well in the build or not.
Huh, a player who abandons powers because they don't fit the numbers ( likely Con ) that that player wants to use is not a person concerned with theme.
A theme player will happily adjust a few numbers to use powers relevant to their theme.
PS - just because you can't constantly spam a power doesn't mean you can't use it. If your theme is a tough guy with two pistols, and that means you don't have the energy to perma-spam it, then just use it as much as you can - viola, theme character. Real theme characters often have weaknesses you know.
Edit: Y'know, nevermind, these horrendous changes will never come to be, and after some thought, I realize a lot of you aren't actually pining for this LA nerf(or so I think ). Misguided accusations and all, my deepest apologies.
Well yes, this entire thread was just started as a butt hurt trolling attempt. The fact that some of us started having an actual conversation in it was largely just to ridicule the OP and his attempt to rustle jimmies.
Using a video from over seven years ago, especially even then when certain effects would have certain costs associated with them, is complete mis-characterization.
Edit: Y'know, nevermind, these horrendous changes will never come to be, and after some thought, I realize a lot of you aren't actually pining for this LA nerf(or so I think ). Misguided accusations and all, my deepest apologies.
Well yes, this entire thread was just started as a butt hurt trolling attempt. The fact that some of us started having an actual conversation in it was largely just to ridicule the OP and his attempt to rustle jimmies.
Indeed..and he did get me so.. . Oh well, I shall keep my eyes peeled in case anything like this happens again to avoid idiotic responses (Unless they're to ridicule said trolling )
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
PBR could maybe use a bit of love, since it doesn't have an easy debuff to boost its dps like AR, TKA, and LArc have now. I'm unsure about LArc atm, though in general I don't like debuffs that boost dmg to be too strong.
It has debuff, it called Chest Beam. Meant to debuff Particle & Crushing resistance by 12% for flat 10 seconds. Another talk that it doesn't match many concepts and is 50 ft power, & has targeting arc. But there is such possibility. Minigun btw. too, but that's pretty bad style. Will look forward to Sonic Boom Generator, which adv debuffs Sonic damage on full charge, maybe they'll extend it on Particle damage too & activatable on tap.
Using powersets together, which are not meant to be used together, is considered an exploit. Please do not discuss exploits on the forums, to avoid spreading their use.
For reference, this comment was posted in response to forum discussion of that issue: Quick Clarification. It's from a different development era, but it explains the ongoing forum policy.
Comments
It matters because threads like these try and get matter-of-fact with changes that's why. Only looking at a number isn't how you gauge whether or not something's a good idea, hence why I get angry at these "suggestions"-their more or less this needs (keyword there: need) to happen because this parse or this guy uses it along with that guy and that guy. So what? That's their prerogative. This is more or less a thing because it's popular, spinned to say it's going to end the end be good for diversity. See the part of my post about making a video proposing these changes for more info
42 40s, LTSer.
And why pray tell should I spend time and energy for someone that has been less than courteous? I am not posting my thoughts on balance to convince just you, if you chose not to believe a screenshot of a damage parse I don't really care.
And also you can perfectly well run a tgm build without using the intended synergies from the munitions set. But doing so without ever needing your energy builder is more tricky. So that is completely in line with your requirement of it being usable with lower performance.
42 40s, LTSer.
And the devs we do have can think for themselves, if they take a suggestion that only means they agree with it not that they are easily influenced. From what I've seen they have very strong opinions about how things should be and how things should be balanced. Adjustments made to anything after it's been released to PTS have been small tweaks, some for the better some for the worse, but most for the better.
I guess to relate it back to LArc: it'd be like making Chain Lightning more of ST dps power, and lessening the gap between it an LArc, while keeping LArc clearly superior for in-set builds (ofc, issue there is they somewhat do diff things, though they necc don't have to). If ur mixed build really dogmatically wanted to take LArc for some reason, then it not being optimized would be a penalty ya just have to accept for putting more arbitrary restrictions on it, but there'd be a workable alternative from that same set otherwise.
So the answer from me, I guess- more options for all, but a somewhat universal system that balanced dps, eps, tier, lockdown, CC/utility, etc for each power. Both low investment, lower reward options and higher investment, higher reward options for each set. We kinda have that going now, but its a bit patchy and could be revised overall for consistency.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
I won't have any issues, because I actually like the idea of a balanced game more than I like the idea of easily being able to have tons of ez power at my disposal. I prefer interesting building over ez building. Case in point: after the 2gm changes go live I'm thinking of making a dual pistols build, because now the idea interests me - before these changes, the idea of being a stand-n-spam-2gm, stand-n-aoe-lead-tempest build wasn't appealing, even if it did do a billion more dps than the build I was using.
What you fail to realize is that powers aren't deemed exploits because they perform well. They're deemed exploits because people are exploiting glitchy design flaws with those powers. The reason for 2GM's cost increase isn't related only to 2GM's own performance.
PS - If you go into zone and do a live poll, you won't find out anything about what's good for the game. If I go in zone and ask "Hey guys, who wants everything to be free, and all damage and healing for players to be doubled?
PS2 - if you like I can make more videos giving practical examples of why you're wrong about everything, but you'll have to convince me why it's worth it to take hours out of my play time to convince someone like you.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Same here
42 40s, LTSer.
PS - you're not a dev, why you still postin'?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
42 40s, LTSer.
A theme player will happily adjust a few numbers to use powers relevant to their theme.
PS - just because you can't constantly spam a power doesn't mean you can't use it. If your theme is a tough guy with two pistols, and that means you don't have the energy to perma-spam it, then just use it as much as you can - viola, theme character. Real theme characters often have weaknesses you know.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Using a video from over seven years ago, especially even then when certain effects would have certain costs associated with them, is complete mis-characterization.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
42 40s, LTSer.
Using powersets together, which are not meant to be used together, is considered an exploit. Please do not discuss exploits on the forums, to avoid spreading their use.
For reference, this comment was posted in response to forum discussion of that issue: Quick Clarification. It's from a different development era, but it explains the ongoing forum policy.
Closing this thread.