Still scratching my head over why such a niche toggle is getting this kind of attention.
If I had to guess, it may be because CC comes in very handy during the teleios epic lair. If you get to pick your "All-Star" team when going in, you would love to have a CCer. The mobs are what will be your downfall, and since they only have a short cooldown before spawning after death, CCing is MUCH more preferable to DPS lest Grond's baddies knock you into the flames of doom or Gravitar's minions CC you right as she is about to put a bubble around you or even Teleios' clones stun/knock you as you try to pass off genetic siphon.
CC is very much in vogue with this lair - in fact I think since so many people usually go without it, many will get frustrated by the mobs and ask for them to stop respawning at some point or be removed all together because they usually do not worry about minions or never even consider using CC.
Suggestion: Since all the preorder device auras are available sperately now, and they have a buff icon. I would prefer to not have the aura on the actual pre order device. Even with the options to change colors, many costumes look much worse with that head aura.
The activity that Manipulator rewards is a simply a slower-paced playstyle than what most other forms call for. It needs that extra time. Maybe not a full minute, but more than 20 seconds.
I think meeting in the middle here and giving it a bit longer time would soothe some of the hurt being dealt.
Maybe 35 seconds? Or have it scale with something. I mean, look at Enrage. It's not 20 seconds, you notice, and it's trivially easy to refresh it.
Or should we regard this as a precedent to nerf Enrage as well?
I'm not sure some of the devices do not belong in other recognition vendors other than the SCR vendor. For example, [Feline Metabolic Serum] is a level 40 item for 400(!) SCR and requires that you have completed "A Cat's Tale". However, the mission "A Cat's Tale" is only a level 16 mission and rewards Primus rec. Wouldn't it be more appropriate for this device to be in the Primus vendor and be available at a lower level? If the objective is to get players to run out and do these missions for the reward of getting these devices, it would seem more appropriate that these devices me placed in their corresponding perk/mission's level. Otherwise, a level 40 player would see this device and go out to do "A Cat's Tale" only to find out it is just a level 16 mission that they could complete in seconds.
I can understand wanting all permanent devices require SCR, but maybe putting one or two of them in the appropriate level vendor would be nice, as well as moving some consumables (such as servitor serum!) to the SCR vendor.
Suggestion: Since all the preorder device auras are available sperately now, and they have a buff icon. I would prefer to not have the aura on the actual pre order device. Even with the options to change colors, many costumes look much worse with that head aura.
Yes, please take those darn auras off the items haha. My vanity prevents me from using inborn tenacity.
The activity that Manipulator rewards is a simply a slower-paced playstyle than what most other forms call for. It needs that extra time. Maybe not a full minute, but more than 20 seconds.
I think meeting in the middle here and giving it a bit longer time would soothe some of the hurt being dealt.
Maybe 35 seconds? Or have it scale with something. I mean, look at Enrage. It's not 20 seconds, you notice, and it's trivially easy to refresh it.
Or should we regard this as a precedent to nerf Enrage as well?
Shhs :P.
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
Forms are intended to reward players for engaging in a certain activity. Manipulator having a minute long duration went against that concept and was essentially just a second passive. I am aware that many mezzes aren't proccing it properly, and will address those as I can (many of the devices tweaked in this update that apply mezzes should trigger manipulator now).
Rage still has its duration scaling from con from the stone ages, and perhaps other forms can get something similar in the future.
Except the manipulator change *penalizes* people for engaging in CC activity.
-If you use CC rationally, you'll never have more than a handful of stacks of manipulator, because its not an activity that should occur frequently.
-If you use CC to build stacks, you get penalized because your CC is less effective. --CCs build resistance stacks which decreases the effectiveness of future CC. --If you apply a hold (etc...) to an already held creature, the new CC replaces the old, including the reduced effectiveness from hold resist stacks, even if the new hold is shorter than what remains on the old hold. (This is part of what makes current Ego Storm pretty sucky, actually).
All toggles are effectively bonus passives. They always have been. The only thing that makes people drop stacks is ridiculously long unskippable cutscenes. (And honestly, that's kind of stupid - players shouldn't get penalized for being forced to sit through a cutscene). Every other toggle just dictates you run as fast as possible to the next mob so you don't drop stacks, but they all routinely get stacks just by spamming attacks. CC is not a 'spam' sort of activity, and treating it's toggle the same is punitive.
You can either benefit from CC, or you can have stacks of your toggle which theoretically make your CC stronger, but actually make it totally useless (because everything has multiple stacks of hold resistance). That's beyond stupid as a trade-off.
I feel that if your character is based around being a crowd controller ( as it kind of should be if you're using the crowd controller form ) then CC should be something that happens frequently. At least once every 20 seconds. To me, that's not an unusual or unreasonable standard. I have characters who I wouldn't even say are based around being a crowd controller who use stuns more often than that.
Damage dealers have to actively and frequently dps to keep their form up. Healers have to actively and frequently heal to keep their form up. It then makes sense that Controllers should have to actively and frequently control to keep their form up. I mean, if a healer told you "I can't keep Compassion stacks up because my heals have long cooldowns and I don't use them a lot" what would you tell them? If you're a controller, then that's what you do, so do it. If you're just going to use control powers now and then, then maybe you're not a controller and maybe the controller form isn't really optimal for your build after all.
Like was mentioned, Enrage isn't the standard, if anything it's another anomaly from the time before we got all the new forms. It might in fact be reasonable to set it to the 20 second rule as well. After all, using a knock once every 20 seconds isn't particularly demanding.
Please consider adding Resurrection Serum as a choice for the Inventor between Mini Drive and adding a block power to the Automaton between Reconstruction Cirtcuits and Binding shot . Please @kaiserin
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I feel that if your character is based around being a crowd controller ( as it kind of should be if you're using the crowd controller form ) then CC should be something that happens frequently. At least once every 20 seconds. To me, that's not an unusual or unreasonable standard. I have characters who I wouldn't even say are based around being a crowd controller who use stuns more often than that.
Damage dealers have to actively and frequently dps to keep their form up. Healers have to actively and frequently heal to keep their form up. It then makes sense that Controllers should have to actively and frequently control to keep their form up. I mean, if a healer told you "I can't keep Compassion stacks up because my heals have long cooldowns and I don't use them a lot" what would you tell them? If you're a controller, then that's what you do, so do it. If you're just going to use control powers now and then, then maybe you're not a controller and maybe the controller form isn't really optimal for your build after all.
Like was mentioned, Enrage isn't the standard, if anything it's another anomaly from the time before we got all the new forms. It might in fact be reasonable to set it to the 20 second rule as well. After all, using a knock once every 20 seconds isn't particularly demanding.
Actually, I believe manipulator was set to the old ways, back when CC wasn't terrible/ineffective outside of a quick survival tactic. I'd honestly wish they'd left it be and brought CC back up to match Manip to make the duration of the stacks matter. It's not as if the CCer(or, rather those specc'd into true CC fashion) are trying to stack Manip for it's damage :P
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
DPS aren't subject to stacking resistance shared across the party though. If a DPS hitting too hard causes bosses to become immune to all damage for 15 seconds, they'd need longer Form durations too.
As it is, there's only a 5 second window to build the next stack of Manip without making the target CC immune, and that's shared party-wide with other players who may be using CC powers like Sonic Device and Crashing Wave Kick for DPS or tanking.
Side tangent: I really would like to see multi-role powers split out to avoid this issue of "Don't use Crashing Wave Kick/Mental Storm/etc, you're making them stun immune!" "But I have to use it otherwise I have a 10% chance to get one-shotted/lose more than 30% of my DPS!". An important part of a Tank or DPS' core rotation shouldn't negatively affect a CCer's ability.
I'm not sure how feasible it is at this point, but perhaps Manipulator could be expanded to be triggered by thematically mind-affecting effects that don't build CC resistance? Fear and Disorient could also count as manipulating the mind IMO.
I feel that if your character is based around being a crowd controller ( as it kind of should be if you're using the crowd controller form ) then CC should be something that happens frequently. At least once every 20 seconds. To me, that's not an unusual or unreasonable standard. I have characters who I wouldn't even say are based around being a crowd controller who use stuns more often than that.
Damage dealers have to actively and frequently dps to keep their form up. Healers have to actively and frequently heal to keep their form up. It then makes sense that Controllers should have to actively and frequently control to keep their form up. I mean, if a healer told you "I can't keep Compassion stacks up because my heals have long cooldowns and I don't use them a lot" what would you tell them? If you're a controller, then that's what you do, so do it. If you're just going to use control powers now and then, then maybe you're not a controller and maybe the controller form isn't really optimal for your build after all.
Like was mentioned, Enrage isn't the standard, if anything it's another anomaly from the time before we got all the new forms. It might in fact be reasonable to set it to the 20 second rule as well. After all, using a knock once every 20 seconds isn't particularly demanding.
More healing makes healing better. More damage makes damage better. More CC makes CC worse. I find it hard to believe you can't see the obvious difference between these things.
It's not just that CC is unique in most of them having long cds, its that using CCs too often actively makes them worse at CCing.
So either you let manipulator stacks last a length which makes sense for how CC actually works, or you remove hold resistance stacks. Yeah, that's not going to happen.
Still scratching my head over why such a niche toggle is getting this kind of attention.
If I had to guess, it may be because CC comes in very handy during the teleios epic lair. If you get to pick your "All-Star" team when going in, you would love to have a CCer. The mobs are what will be your downfall, and since they only have a short cooldown before spawning after death, CCing is MUCH more preferable to DPS lest Grond's baddies knock you into the flames of doom or Gravitar's minions CC you right as she is about to put a bubble around you or even Teleios' clones stun/knock you as you try to pass off genetic siphon.
CC is very much in vogue with this lair - in fact I think since so many people usually go without it, many will get frustrated by the mobs and ask for them to stop respawning at some point or be removed all together because they usually do not worry about minions or never even consider using CC.
In other words this is useful in the new lair so let's nerf it! MAKES SENSE!
Fear and Disorient could also count as manipulating the mind IMO.
Manipulator should increase the effectiveness of these debuffs too.
Well, the adjustment certainly isn't going to make it preform worst. You'll definitely be able to keep up a full 8 stacks of manipulator without any problem.
Still scratching my head over why such a niche toggle is getting this kind of attention.
If I had to guess, it may be because CC comes in very handy during the teleios epic lair. If you get to pick your "All-Star" team when going in, you would love to have a CCer. The mobs are what will be your downfall, and since they only have a short cooldown before spawning after death, CCing is MUCH more preferable to DPS lest Grond's baddies knock you into the flames of doom or Gravitar's minions CC you right as she is about to put a bubble around you or even Teleios' clones stun/knock you as you try to pass off genetic siphon.
CC is very much in vogue with this lair - in fact I think since so many people usually go without it, many will get frustrated by the mobs and ask for them to stop respawning at some point or be removed all together because they usually do not worry about minions or never even consider using CC.
In other words this is useful in the new lair so let's nerf it! MAKES SENSE!
Fear and Disorient could also count as manipulating the mind IMO.
Manipulator should increase the effectiveness of these debuffs too.
Well, the adjustment certainly isn't going to make it preform worst. You'll definitely be able to keep up a full 8 stacks of manipulator without any problem.
In a Lair situation most certainly, but i'm looking past the lair, and it doesn't look good. At all. For anything that isn't telepathy.
I feel that if your character is based around being a crowd controller ( as it kind of should be if you're using the crowd controller form ) then CC should be something that happens frequently. At least once every 20 seconds. To me, that's not an unusual or unreasonable standard. I have characters who I wouldn't even say are based around being a crowd controller who use stuns more often than that.
Damage dealers have to actively and frequently dps to keep their form up. Healers have to actively and frequently heal to keep their form up. It then makes sense that Controllers should have to actively and frequently control to keep their form up. I mean, if a healer told you "I can't keep Compassion stacks up because my heals have long cooldowns and I don't use them a lot" what would you tell them? If you're a controller, then that's what you do, so do it. If you're just going to use control powers now and then, then maybe you're not a controller and maybe the controller form isn't really optimal for your build after all.
Like was mentioned, Enrage isn't the standard, if anything it's another anomaly from the time before we got all the new forms. It might in fact be reasonable to set it to the 20 second rule as well. After all, using a knock once every 20 seconds isn't particularly demanding.
More healing makes healing better. More damage makes damage better. More CC makes CC worse. I find it hard to believe you can't see the obvious difference between these things.
It's not just that CC is unique in most of them having long cds, its that using CCs too often actively makes them worse at CCing.
So either you let manipulator stacks last a length which makes sense for how CC actually works, or you remove hold resistance stacks. Yeah, that's not going to happen.
^ I agree.
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
The thing is with manipulator is there is still no CD on how fast you can gain stacks. If you have any powers that proc manip that have no CD you can spam them and get 8 stacks really fast. Some of my favorite manipulator based powers being eldritch blast and bullet beatdown both of which I use on my mains. So it still has that compared to other forms which can be really annoying to stack quickly.
-Considering there seems to be a push to standardize a lot of auras and support passives to 100 ft range, Redirected Force, Inertial Dampening Field, and Onslaught Gloves of the Savior should probably also get this range increase. -While Skarn's Bane looks improved, this still leaves the question of where this leaves Planar Fracture since it basically does the same job and PF can't benefit from Hex of Suffering's magic resist debuff. -With Ao'Qephoth being downgraded to be more in line with other Alert bosses, will lacking bosses be brought up? Guy Sweetland and Black Fang (and arguably the whole Dogz faction) could stand to have the Shredded debuff added to their claw swipes and perhaps NTTG on their lunges since they're melee enemies.
"Interesting builds are born from limitations not by letting players put everything into one build."
Haven't tested all newly changed devices, but I can already state that Feline Metabolic Serum should be a rank 3 Athletics (not acrobatics) to be worth buying at all.
Haven't tested all newly changed devices, but I can already state that Feline Metabolic Serum should be a rank 3 Athletics (not acrobatics) to be worth buying at all.
Not necessarily. Most people don't bother ranking up athletics at all, and with Feline Metabolic Serum you are free to take two other travel powers that are not Athletics - perhaps a flight and teleport or hoverboard. It is still a very nice device which gives you a third and popular travel power.
-Considering there seems to be a push to standardize a lot of auras and support passives to 100 ft range, Redirected Force, Inertial Dampening Field, and Onslaught Gloves of the Savior should probably also get this range increase.
Oh wow. Doing this for the Onslaught Gloves gloves would be a very welcome improvement, at least as far as I am concerned. 50 ft even. These gloves already seem more like a utility piece of gear than the offensive piece of gear that it is.
I would have liked it much better if it was something like this:
"Each time you heal an ally, they gain a stack of warrior's inspiration (or whatever you want to call it). Each stack gives + 1% damage buff. This buff can be stacked 5 times."
If that item was in the Onslaught store, I definitely would have picked it up instead of the current Gloves of the Savior. If the current Gloves of the Savior was change to function like the above, I would be very happy. If another piece of gear was added to the Onslaught that functioned like the above, I would also be very happy.
It would be very nice if another piece of gear is added like the above, that there be a certain amount of time allotted for people who already have the Onslaught Gloves of the Savior to be able to trade it in for the new support variant offensive gear. (Just having this gear as an option though would be great )
"Each time you heal an ally, they gain a stack of warrior's inspiration (or whatever you want to call it). Each stack gives + 1% damage buff. This buff can be stacked 5 times."
You do mean "Heal OR Shield" right?
Erm, I didn't .. but having it be heal or shield could make it viable for more types of support, soo I would be all for that
Haven't tested all newly changed devices, but I can already state that Feline Metabolic Serum should be a rank 3 Athletics (not acrobatics) to be worth buying at all.
Not necessarily. Most people don't bother ranking up athletics at all, and with Feline Metabolic Serum you are free to take two other travel powers that are not Athletics - perhaps a flight and teleport or hoverboard. It is still a very nice device which gives you a third and popular travel power.
Sure, ok, lets have another trash device that will never get slotted by anyone. Whatever. Game already has 90% of powers/devices in this state anyway.
Haven't tested all newly changed devices, but I can already state that Feline Metabolic Serum should be a rank 3 Athletics (not acrobatics) to be worth buying at all.
Not necessarily. Most people don't bother ranking up athletics at all, and with Feline Metabolic Serum you are free to take two other travel powers that are not Athletics - perhaps a flight and teleport or hoverboard. It is still a very nice device which gives you a third and popular travel power.
Sure, ok, lets have another trash device that will never get slotted by anyone. Whatever.
Challenge accepted. I will be slotting it.
Whatever = I don't care by the way. People who do that just for the sake of proving me wrong do not show the real picture of which devices are useful and worth slotting and which are not, so yeah, whatever! Enjoy running around with a speed of a snail.
I currently have toons that I wish could have R1 acrobatics/athletics from a device.
For me, the worthless part is gaining it only at level 40. Devices like these would be great if they could be given to lower level toons on the same account. It's great having two travel powers on a new toon. At level 40, with two travel powers, and likely a vehicle, too. Meh
Haven't tested all newly changed devices, but I can already state that Feline Metabolic Serum should be a rank 3 Athletics (not acrobatics) to be worth buying at all.
Not necessarily. Most people don't bother ranking up athletics at all, and with Feline Metabolic Serum you are free to take two other travel powers that are not Athletics - perhaps a flight and teleport or hoverboard. It is still a very nice device which gives you a third and popular travel power.
Sure, ok, lets have another trash device that will never get slotted by anyone. Whatever.
Challenge accepted. I will be slotting it.
Whatever = I don't care by the way. People who do that just for the sake of proving me wrong do not show the real picture of which devices are useful and worth slotting and which are not, so yeah, whatever! Enjoy running around with a speed of a snail.
Obviously you do care or you wouldn't be so flippant about it.
Haven't tested all newly changed devices, but I can already state that Feline Metabolic Serum should be a rank 3 Athletics (not acrobatics) to be worth buying at all.
^^^^ THIS Yeah, that stance seems to be more appropriate for me too! Generally l consider even replacing [Dark Speed] from some toons to this because black flames cover their appearance constantly, which isn't great at all. Btw athlecics/mach speed type animation also suffer from bug, that causes footstep SFX to not playing while moving forward at full speed, can devs investigate that?
Wait, isn't that R3? Very sad if it's R1, because they announce these devices are LVL 40 now, and LVL 40 tp devices are R3.
It may actually be somewhat worse than R1, it's expressing movement speed in an unusual way but assuming no travel power is speed 20 (which seems accurate), +10 run speed is inferior to the +75% normally given by r1 acro.
I like the idea that Medical Nanites finally gets a buff, even if an indirect one with Sorcery Auras getting the cake first. The change from its Resist DoT to Resist All is pretty neat, but it still feels rather lackluster and weak in comparison to the Sorcery Support Auras. Could we perhaps add to the Resisting portion? Say, have the Medical Nanites adapt and increase Resistance akin to Defiance, or a reverse Regeneration Passive, where Healing is reduced as Resistance increases when taking damage perhaps going as far as 50% healing with 2x Resistance and have this work based on the player's current %health. With a change to the reverse Regen passive though, I could see this being counted as a nerf, as the healing rate and reduction in amount may actually make matters worse... So if that route were to be taken, perhaps dropping from 3 seconds down to 2 seconds would be an appropriate change to keep it competitive in combat.
On another note, I feel like I'm about to incur some sort of extreme wrath for bringing this up. I feel like Aura of Radiant Protection is giving way too much Resistance. Case in point, Hybrid AoRP gives about 1.5x as much Resistance to All Damage as Invulnerability to its owner. It even contests with Defiance in terms of total Resistance. Even under the Support Role, the Resistance to Self coming from AoRP is comparable to that of Invuln. Invulnerability's only edge over AoRP is the innate Flat Absorb. AoRP builders can pick up Inertial Dampening Field to even this gap, and essentially provide a Team-wide Invulnerability under Hybrid, and potentially twice as much Resistance as normal Invulnerability to the team under Support. These numbers may need some updating or changing. After all, why take Invulnerability when a Support Aura does it better AND provides for a team?
I'm doing a bit of research for the new Line of Sight restriction for Passives, expect me to post and be annoying about it pretty soon.
We should probably keep discussions about powers that have not been changed on PTS out of the PTS threads. With the high number of changes on PTS, keeping track of things is hard enough as is.
Not sure if it's changed, but when Neuroelectric Pulse first appeared I noticed the energy return scaled with REC.
Only Rec? no End and Int?
This will be a problem
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies! Playing since 1 February 2011 128 + Characters (21 ATs, 107 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
I'm guessing the Manipulator timer increase, has something to do with the Telepathy DOT powers all triggering it. If you go pure Telepathy (Shadow of Doubt, Mental Leech, Mental Storm) you can keep Manipulator stacked up pretty well. However, I very rarely see builds like this.
It's just hard for me to imagine Manipulator performing so well that it's acting like a "second passive". Hardly anyone ever uses that toggle, besides hard core Crowd Controllers. And those are few and far between. Still scratching my head over why such a niche toggle is getting this kind of attention.
The intention with this change and future changes is to make CC less desirable in 99% of cases.
It is interesting to note that Mental Storm, Manipulator & Ego Sleep were not even considered in the updated patch notes and they have two things in common, Crowd Control related + Telepathy.
If I'm 100% honest? I saw these changes and the ones to come (most likely) happening, which was why I made that Crowd Control Discussion thread, to get a decent read to see if my thoughts on what other players/testers thought was correct and it was.
Short of re-training to become a developer and applying to work for Cryptic, there is nothing MORE I can do to make people see the other side of the argument when it comes to CC.
The majority of players don't bother or like the mechanic, so whatever happens to it, happens.
The activity that Manipulator rewards is a simply a slower-paced playstyle than what most other forms call for. It needs that extra time. Maybe not a full minute, but more than 20 seconds.
I think meeting in the middle here and giving it a bit longer time would soothe some of the hurt being dealt.
Maybe 35 seconds? Or have it scale with something. I mean, look at Enrage. It's not 20 seconds, you notice, and it's trivially easy to refresh it.
Or should we regard this as a precedent to nerf Enrage as well?
Manipulator will not be adjusted.
Enrage will not be adjusted, in fact it would be hard pressed to be adjusted in the same manner Manipulator was "standardized" IMO.
This is in accordance to the new Line of Sight requirements on Support Passives:
I don't disagree that Support auras shouldn't be applied through walls, but a direct LoS requirement being tacked onto the passives is going to prove to be an incredible hassle. I'm sure many of you have gone through and done the Bank Heist Alert plenty of times to know the layout. Those rooms have plenty of little things in them that will block LoS like pillars, counters, plants, and even the siding of the doorway. A change to require Line of Sight is going to be hectic to manage to get everyone under your effects in a condition like that, so I propose that there be an additional requirement: Zoning.
Many games can zone off sections of the map, sometimes it's to help rendering within the engine, or to create unique conditions for the player when they persist inside them. For example; In "PAYDAY: The Heist", your location is not given to you on a mini-map or radar. Instead, your location is a name, a zone in which you are in. We see it here in Champions Online too, particularly in the open world. How do we know when we've gone from RenCen to Downtown? Or from Downtown to City Center? Likely us entering a sectioned off part of the level or instance called a Zone is enough to see the name of our given location change. The game knows when we've gone from Feral Tangle to Well's Pass, and we can put this information to good use.
Back to the reason why Support Passives got the LoS requirement; Providing buffs through the walls of sectioned off rooms such as in the upcoming Teleios Ascendant Lair. Again, I do not disagree with what is happening, but we CAN do better here. Something as small as say a Trash Can or Streetlamp will block Line of Sight, but what if we added a condition so objects like that DON'T bother our support passives? Thanks to Zoning, we can. With Zoning, we can section off each individual room, preventing the Support Aura from Supporting beyond walls, but not impede supporting allies within the same room as the owner.
I propose that a new condition is added, going something like this:
Target's Zone = Owner's Zone
-Provide Buff
Target's Zone != Owner's Zone
-Check Line of Sight
--Line of Sight Agrees?
---Provide Buff
--Line of Sight Disagrees?
---No Buff
Under this condition, the passives will check to see if the players it wants to affect are within the same zone. If not, that's when Line of Sight is taken into consideration. This would prevent what is about to happen in tight corners such as with our limited space within the Bank Heist, but will continue to do the job in preventing the cheap, behind-the-wall Support the LoS tag was added on for in the Teleios Ascendant Lair. Section off rooms by Zoning and require the passives to check Line of Sight only when The Owner and The Teammate don't match Zones. We all know how annoying the little hitboxes of objects are, especially since they block LoS. Passive supporters are going to feel the wrath of inanimate objects such as Trashcans unless something is done about it.
Hopefully I don't have to give visual aid, but I've come prepared in case we need it.
I'm not a long time vet of this game or its mechanics but the Manipulator change feels shortsighted in a fairly numeric/spreadsheet fashion. It's being changed because it doesn't have a standard duration but that ignores the fact that most standard CC is on cooldown and the rigid resistance stacking means it's better to be more slow paced about it. Something like Concentration shouldn't have long duration since for a ranged player the requirement is more or less "have a pulse" with how easy it is. There's multiple ways this could be better handled. -Re-increase Manipulator's duration. Even if not a full 60 seconds, 35 seconds has been suggested and that seems feasible. -Alter Manipulator's buff strength and stacks so that it functions more like Aspect of the Machine--only has five stacks but the buff numbers per stack are greater. Would work well with the slower and more methodical play CC requires and would reward people for actually putting Advantage points on a form. -Leave Manipulator at 20 seconds but alter CC gamewide. This is the hardest option since time isn't infinite and devs are human but it might be the one that helps CC the most. Ego Sleep has theoretically the best concept for how pure CC should work, one effect on tap with a "bigger" effect on charge, but a lot of the game's powers don't follow this. Adding onto the fact that there's powers that don't properly trigger Manipulator, the 20 second change feels fairly premature.
"Interesting builds are born from limitations not by letting players put everything into one build."
I think the whole "LoS adjustment" for Support Auras is a bit silly, considering enemies can hit you THROUGH walls and other objects if you are running or get knocked.
I get that the intention is to stop Player X from being locked out but having a support aura so his team mates who are still in the lair get support as long as they are within 100ft and Player X is shoved up against the door.
It would be much better to have this rule apply to that lair ONLY, if it has to apply.
I'm not a long time vet of this game or its mechanics but the Manipulator change feels shortsighted in a fairly numeric/spreadsheet fashion. It's being changed because it doesn't have a standard duration but that ignores the fact that most standard CC is on cooldown and the rigid resistance stacking means it's better to be more slow paced about it. Something like Concentration shouldn't have long duration since for a ranged player the requirement is more or less "have a pulse" with how easy it is. There's multiple ways this could be better handled. -Re-increase Manipulator's duration. Even if not a full 60 seconds, 35 seconds has been suggested and that seems feasible. -Alter Manipulator's buff strength and stacks so that it functions more like Aspect of the Machine--only has five stacks but the buff numbers per stack are greater. Would work well with the slower and more methodical play CC requires and would reward people for actually putting Advantage points on a form. -Leave Manipulator at 20 seconds but alter CC gamewide. This is the hardest option since time isn't infinite and devs are human but it might be the one that helps CC the most. Ego Sleep has theoretically the best concept for how pure CC should work, one effect on tap with a "bigger" effect on charge, but a lot of the game's powers don't follow this. Adding onto the fact that there's powers that don't properly trigger Manipulator, the 20 second change feels fairly premature.
IMO, Manipulator's duration should be 40 seconds per stack. There was nothing really wrong with how it functioned, this was just a real, plain & simple negative adjustment to make the play style it is attempting to save less desirable.
I've already stated what I know Manipulator should be capable of doing on the Crowd Control - Discussion thread. But that would require making positive changes to the Crowd Control system and frankly that goes against what is happening here.
For what it costs? I'd expect it to function like "Power Siphon" from the Empyrean constructs in Lemuria. That would be acceptable and very useful (especially if NPC powers really did require energy to function).
Right now it seems less than desirable.
I'm not happy about it not really working with END either, that seems like the very FIRST thing it should work with, more so than anything else.
Good thing they've apparently forgotten about Mental Discipline, which really is essentially a "second passive" (unlike Manipulator), and I guess that breaks the game somehow? Not that I really see either one used a whole lot, nor do they seem especially out of balance on the occasions I do see them.
LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.
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Good thing they've apparently forgotten about Mental Discipline, which really is essentially a "second passive" (unlike Manipulator), and I guess that breaks the game somehow? Not that I really see either one used a whole lot, nor do they seem especially out of balance on the occasions I do see them.
Manipulator can still stack fairly quickly though I believe? I would think it fair to give it a slightly longer duration on stacks than the other Forms just because in real world usage CC powers happen much less often than the ways other form stacking does. But either way... just don't use one big aoe cc and use a bunch of little ones on individual enemies right? Right? ... riiiight?
Manipulator can still stack fairly quickly though I believe? I would think it fair to give it a slightly longer duration on stacks than the other Forms just because in real world usage CC powers happen much less often than the ways other form stacking does. But either way... just don't use one big aoe cc and use a bunch of little ones on individual enemies right? Right? ... riiiight?
For now yes, but I'm sure if I wait long enough, it'll have an internal CD applied to it. You know, for extra lolz.
Comments
CC is very much in vogue with this lair - in fact I think since so many people usually go without it, many will get frustrated by the mobs and ask for them to stop respawning at some point or be removed all together because they usually do not worry about minions or never even consider using CC.
Since all the preorder device auras are available sperately now, and they have a buff icon. I would prefer to not have the aura on the actual pre order device. Even with the options to change colors, many costumes look much worse with that head aura.
Maybe 35 seconds? Or have it scale with something. I mean, look at Enrage. It's not 20 seconds, you notice, and it's trivially easy to refresh it.
Or should we regard this as a precedent to nerf Enrage as well?
I can understand wanting all permanent devices require SCR, but maybe putting one or two of them in the appropriate level vendor would be nice, as well as moving some consumables (such as servitor serum!) to the SCR vendor. Yes, please take those darn auras off the items haha. My vanity prevents me from using inborn tenacity.
42 40s, LTSer.
-If you use CC rationally, you'll never have more than a handful of stacks of manipulator, because its not an activity that should occur frequently.
-If you use CC to build stacks, you get penalized because your CC is less effective.
--CCs build resistance stacks which decreases the effectiveness of future CC.
--If you apply a hold (etc...) to an already held creature, the new CC replaces the old, including the reduced effectiveness from hold resist stacks, even if the new hold is shorter than what remains on the old hold. (This is part of what makes current Ego Storm pretty sucky, actually).
All toggles are effectively bonus passives. They always have been. The only thing that makes people drop stacks is ridiculously long unskippable cutscenes. (And honestly, that's kind of stupid - players shouldn't get penalized for being forced to sit through a cutscene). Every other toggle just dictates you run as fast as possible to the next mob so you don't drop stacks, but they all routinely get stacks just by spamming attacks. CC is not a 'spam' sort of activity, and treating it's toggle the same is punitive.
You can either benefit from CC, or you can have stacks of your toggle which theoretically make your CC stronger, but actually make it totally useless (because everything has multiple stacks of hold resistance). That's beyond stupid as a trade-off.
Damage dealers have to actively and frequently dps to keep their form up. Healers have to actively and frequently heal to keep their form up. It then makes sense that Controllers should have to actively and frequently control to keep their form up. I mean, if a healer told you "I can't keep Compassion stacks up because my heals have long cooldowns and I don't use them a lot" what would you tell them? If you're a controller, then that's what you do, so do it. If you're just going to use control powers now and then, then maybe you're not a controller and maybe the controller form isn't really optimal for your build after all.
Like was mentioned, Enrage isn't the standard, if anything it's another anomaly from the time before we got all the new forms. It might in fact be reasonable to set it to the 20 second rule as well. After all, using a knock once every 20 seconds isn't particularly demanding.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
42 40s, LTSer.
As it is, there's only a 5 second window to build the next stack of Manip without making the target CC immune, and that's shared party-wide with other players who may be using CC powers like Sonic Device and Crashing Wave Kick for DPS or tanking.
Side tangent: I really would like to see multi-role powers split out to avoid this issue of "Don't use Crashing Wave Kick/Mental Storm/etc, you're making them stun immune!" "But I have to use it otherwise I have a 10% chance to get one-shotted/lose more than 30% of my DPS!". An important part of a Tank or DPS' core rotation shouldn't negatively affect a CCer's ability.
I'm not sure how feasible it is at this point, but perhaps Manipulator could be expanded to be triggered by thematically mind-affecting effects that don't build CC resistance? Fear and Disorient could also count as manipulating the mind IMO.
It's not just that CC is unique in most of them having long cds, its that using CCs too often actively makes them worse at CCing.
So either you let manipulator stacks last a length which makes sense for how CC actually works, or you remove hold resistance stacks. Yeah, that's not going to happen.
Well, the adjustment certainly isn't going to make it preform worst. You'll definitely be able to keep up a full 8 stacks of manipulator without any problem.
In a Lair situation most certainly, but i'm looking past the lair, and it doesn't look good. At all. For anything that isn't telepathy. ^
I agree.
42 40s, LTSer.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
-While Skarn's Bane looks improved, this still leaves the question of where this leaves Planar Fracture since it basically does the same job and PF can't benefit from Hex of Suffering's magic resist debuff.
-With Ao'Qephoth being downgraded to be more in line with other Alert bosses, will lacking bosses be brought up? Guy Sweetland and Black Fang (and arguably the whole Dogz faction) could stand to have the Shredded debuff added to their claw swipes and perhaps NTTG on their lunges since they're melee enemies.
-Sterga
Bug: [Cloak of the Infinite Planes] does not give stacks of Locus (Guardian Tree)
I would have liked it much better if it was something like this:
"Each time you heal an ally, they gain a stack of warrior's inspiration (or whatever you want to call it). Each stack gives + 1% damage buff. This buff can be stacked 5 times."
If that item was in the Onslaught store, I definitely would have picked it up instead of the current Gloves of the Savior. If the current Gloves of the Savior was change to function like the above, I would be very happy. If another piece of gear was added to the Onslaught that functioned like the above, I would also be very happy.
It would be very nice if another piece of gear is added like the above, that there be a certain amount of time allotted for people who already have the Onslaught Gloves of the Savior to be able to trade it in for the new support variant offensive gear. (Just having this gear as an option though would be great
Erm, I didn't
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
For me, the worthless part is gaining it only at level 40. Devices like these would be great if they could be given to lower level toons on the same account. It's great having two travel powers on a new toon. At level 40, with two travel powers, and likely a vehicle, too.
Meh
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
THIS
Yeah, that stance seems to be more appropriate for me too! Generally l consider even replacing [Dark Speed] from some toons to this because black flames cover their appearance constantly, which isn't great at all. Btw athlecics/mach speed type animation also suffer from bug, that causes footstep SFX to not playing while moving forward at full speed, can devs investigate that?
Wait, isn't that R3? Very sad if it's R1, because they announce these devices are LVL 40 now, and LVL 40 tp devices are R3.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
On another note, I feel like I'm about to incur some sort of extreme wrath for bringing this up. I feel like Aura of Radiant Protection is giving way too much Resistance. Case in point, Hybrid AoRP gives about 1.5x as much Resistance to All Damage as Invulnerability to its owner. It even contests with Defiance in terms of total Resistance. Even under the Support Role, the Resistance to Self coming from AoRP is comparable to that of Invuln. Invulnerability's only edge over AoRP is the innate Flat Absorb. AoRP builders can pick up Inertial Dampening Field to even this gap, and essentially provide a Team-wide Invulnerability under Hybrid, and potentially twice as much Resistance as normal Invulnerability to the team under Support. These numbers may need some updating or changing. After all, why take Invulnerability when a Support Aura does it better AND provides for a team?
I'm doing a bit of research for the new Line of Sight restriction for Passives, expect me to post and be annoying about it pretty soon.
And I will always be @DZPlayer122.
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Only Rec? no End and Int?
This will be a problem
It is interesting to note that Mental Storm, Manipulator & Ego Sleep were not even considered in the updated patch notes and they have two things in common, Crowd Control related + Telepathy.
If I'm 100% honest? I saw these changes and the ones to come (most likely) happening, which was why I made that Crowd Control Discussion thread, to get a decent read to see if my thoughts on what other players/testers thought was correct and it was.
Short of re-training to become a developer and applying to work for Cryptic, there is nothing MORE I can do to make people see the other side of the argument when it comes to CC.
The majority of players don't bother or like the mechanic, so whatever happens to it, happens.
As I've said before, I'll wait.
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Enrage will not be adjusted, in fact it would be hard pressed to be adjusted in the same manner Manipulator was "standardized" IMO.
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I don't disagree that Support auras shouldn't be applied through walls, but a direct LoS requirement being tacked onto the passives is going to prove to be an incredible hassle. I'm sure many of you have gone through and done the Bank Heist Alert plenty of times to know the layout. Those rooms have plenty of little things in them that will block LoS like pillars, counters, plants, and even the siding of the doorway. A change to require Line of Sight is going to be hectic to manage to get everyone under your effects in a condition like that, so I propose that there be an additional requirement: Zoning.
Many games can zone off sections of the map, sometimes it's to help rendering within the engine, or to create unique conditions for the player when they persist inside them. For example; In "PAYDAY: The Heist", your location is not given to you on a mini-map or radar. Instead, your location is a name, a zone in which you are in. We see it here in Champions Online too, particularly in the open world. How do we know when we've gone from RenCen to Downtown? Or from Downtown to City Center? Likely us entering a sectioned off part of the level or instance called a Zone is enough to see the name of our given location change. The game knows when we've gone from Feral Tangle to Well's Pass, and we can put this information to good use.
Back to the reason why Support Passives got the LoS requirement; Providing buffs through the walls of sectioned off rooms such as in the upcoming Teleios Ascendant Lair. Again, I do not disagree with what is happening, but we CAN do better here. Something as small as say a Trash Can or Streetlamp will block Line of Sight, but what if we added a condition so objects like that DON'T bother our support passives? Thanks to Zoning, we can. With Zoning, we can section off each individual room, preventing the Support Aura from Supporting beyond walls, but not impede supporting allies within the same room as the owner.
I propose that a new condition is added, going something like this:
Target's Zone = Owner's Zone
-Provide Buff
Target's Zone != Owner's Zone
-Check Line of Sight
--Line of Sight Agrees?
---Provide Buff
--Line of Sight Disagrees?
---No Buff
Under this condition, the passives will check to see if the players it wants to affect are within the same zone. If not, that's when Line of Sight is taken into consideration. This would prevent what is about to happen in tight corners such as with our limited space within the Bank Heist, but will continue to do the job in preventing the cheap, behind-the-wall Support the LoS tag was added on for in the Teleios Ascendant Lair. Section off rooms by Zoning and require the passives to check Line of Sight only when The Owner and The Teammate don't match Zones. We all know how annoying the little hitboxes of objects are, especially since they block LoS. Passive supporters are going to feel the wrath of inanimate objects such as Trashcans unless something is done about it.
Hopefully I don't have to give visual aid, but I've come prepared in case we need it.
And I will always be @DZPlayer122.
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Could not that mechanic be used?
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
-Re-increase Manipulator's duration. Even if not a full 60 seconds, 35 seconds has been suggested and that seems feasible.
-Alter Manipulator's buff strength and stacks so that it functions more like Aspect of the Machine--only has five stacks but the buff numbers per stack are greater. Would work well with the slower and more methodical play CC requires and would reward people for actually putting Advantage points on a form.
-Leave Manipulator at 20 seconds but alter CC gamewide. This is the hardest option since time isn't infinite and devs are human but it might be the one that helps CC the most. Ego Sleep has theoretically the best concept for how pure CC should work, one effect on tap with a "bigger" effect on charge, but a lot of the game's powers don't follow this. Adding onto the fact that there's powers that don't properly trigger Manipulator, the 20 second change feels fairly premature.
-Sterga
I get that the intention is to stop Player X from being locked out but having a support aura so his team mates who are still in the lair get support as long as they are within 100ft and Player X is shoved up against the door.
It would be much better to have this rule apply to that lair ONLY, if it has to apply. IMO, Manipulator's duration should be 40 seconds per stack. There was nothing really wrong with how it functioned, this was just a real, plain & simple negative adjustment to make the play style it is attempting to save less desirable.
I've already stated what I know Manipulator should be capable of doing on the Crowd Control - Discussion thread. But that would require making positive changes to the Crowd Control system and frankly that goes against what is happening here.
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For what it costs? I'd expect it to function like "Power Siphon" from the Empyrean constructs in Lemuria. That would be acceptable and very useful (especially if NPC powers really did require energy to function).
Right now it seems less than desirable.
I'm not happy about it not really working with END either, that seems like the very FIRST thing it should work with, more so than anything else.
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"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
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[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
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My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
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