I don't know if magic is really that overused, I seem to run into evil robots, terrorists, corporatists, and aliens as often as I run into evil magicians in this game. And the "Sorcery" powers don't necessarily need to be used for magic-themed heroes. Heck I *SHOCK* actually use Infernal Supernatural powers for "radiation" abilities for my radioactive superheroine, Ms. Chernobyl (radiation is toxic to the human body after all).
It was the most absurdly hilarious power set, just because it was some regular western action-movie brawling.
Extra kudos for not bothering with the ranged attacks and just smacking people with it.
heh, i made a pretty functional melee crab spider, Loved those claws, and the absurdity of having a gun, but only using it for the 2 melee attacks.
as for your knife idea...that could work. My only claws chars are hovering around 8, so ill have to research that one more.
and as for the modern melee weapons,id be interested to see, but one caveat. i see some of the crazy kit-rae and bud k stuff, and they are cool from a certain aesthetic perspective, but from a functional perspective, each weird jutting blade part and serration just draws me out of it. yeah they have cool spikes on them, but functionally they would work horribly for actually cutting anything mobile enough to try to avoid being cut. now i think gerber makes some neat looking machetes, but not sure how much of the look you could copy before someone needs to get paid.
yeah i played a sj brute to level 32, i have mentioned it often in relation to how the knee attack from it, compared to the knee attack from co, highlights how co animations aren't very good. but I reiterate because i had slammed my ehad on this wall for 8 years at coh, animations are costly and time consuming. Co got kinetic melee and sj late in the game, and that game had about 10 times the development going on than co does. Add to that the most sorcery powers are more about effects than animations, celestial got a bit fancy, but mostly since they are ranged or placing stuff on the ground, the actual animations are reused a lot, so they could be made more cheaply. I'd be more surprised if we got another 3 hit combo, knock up single target move, charge cone damage and charge single target damage and lunge move than if they were to just go with an animation customization idea and have selectable animations for existing powers, like we have for ranged powers. but new powers? it seems a lot easirr to justify powers that are functionally redundant if they have a different thematic thing, like all the different single target ranged charge blasts, but having 3 3 hit combo moves in one framework? wondering how well that would flow. heck, i still keep bugging for a capoeria set, those would be some crazy animations.
Did you notice the new-sih animations that got added back when the fist archetype was added(i think), we did get a few more brawleri-sh animations. an elbow strike, a knee strike, and a jumping uppercut, as well as a slightly less horrible energy builder. and as a bonus they tended to add new status moves that ma didnt have yet, like a knock back, tap pop-up, and charge pop-up, so they had a space to fill.
The thing is, what bugs me the most about 'Martial Arts'? It's that the whole variety seems like it was thrown together. I personally think there should be 'martial arts' and 'melee weapons' that are completely different- and factor in those of us who like the idea of 'hitting a dude with a thing' without giving us blood and stabby-murder attacks if we want to use a baseball bat or sticks or a trout or Jonsills old man cane.
Okay, let's just say you want to make a 'sword guy', right? All right. So do I. Now, let's pretend you want to make a 'Ninja Warrior' and I want to make a 'Reincarnated Spartan'. These are both 'sword guys', sort of...
But the problem is, these are the same thing. If you want to use a less 'flashy' swordsman, you have to go with Heavy Weapons... which is fine, unless you wanted a 'normal' sword. Your Swordsman uses finesse, mine uses strength and efficiency. But in game? We're doing the same thing.
So while I can see a 'martial art' that revolves around swords, fighting claws, and even 'bare hands'? It' excludes the other 'sword' concepts.
Which is a really roundabout way of me just saying this: "Champions Online focused too much on magic, and not enough on other things". And it might be an 'animation' issue, but still... look at technology. "Laser Sword" seems just hurled in there with Power Armor, and that makes absolutely no sense to me (except for the plasma burn thing). It's a series of powers that deserved its own seperate category in technology.
Not to mention the 'chain' powers thrown into two different sets. I'd like to see an entire 'lash/chain/whip' power set on its own.
And to this very day, I am baffled as to why no one put a shield or staff powerset in the game. But hey, we got every brand of sorcery you can throw a "T" rating on.
Just a little niggle, i think you meant kendo for the sword style. bushido is a code of military/feudal conduct, similar to the knightly code of chivalry. kendo is the japanese fencing style, though when you get into the sub schools, then im lost too.
Thanks, I was trying to remember this yesterday. Someone was asking about how a mask should look, I said it should look like 'those damned Japanese dudes that whack each other with sticks, whatever you call that'.
and as for the modern melee weapons,id be interested to see, but one caveat. i see some of the crazy kit-rae and bud k stuff, and they are cool from a certain aesthetic perspective, but from a functional perspective, each weird jutting blade part and serration just draws me out of it. yeah they have cool spikes on them, but functionally they would work horribly for actually cutting anything mobile enough to try to avoid being cut. now i think gerber makes some neat looking machetes, but not sure how much of the look you could copy before someone needs to get paid.
LOOLOLOLOLOLBUDK.
Seriously, have you watched Arrow? it's like every prop there cost less than $20.00 out of the Budk catalog.
If you want good 'tools' that are similar to melee weapons, I can dig you some up. I would also highly, HIGHLY recommend a tomahawk. And don't get a SOG- I've broken 2 of them on a rotten log. Get a full-tang from CRKT or Omnivore.
Unfortunately, this interpretation of the setting's premise for powers keeps being repeated as derived from the lore. I understand, I really do. "Magic" has such strong connotations and assumptions, especially among gamers, that it's difficult for many people to dissociate what they believe magic "really" is, from how Champions lore uses it. I often think that if the writers of the current setting had chosen to call the force which enables superhuman powers "cosmic energy" or "quantum flux" instead, this misunderstanding wouldn't keep cropping up. It certainly hasn't helped that Champions Online has emphasized the magical component of the setting to a skewed degree, leading players to assume it's more widespread and more public than the lore states.
Let me quote this passage from Champions Universe 6E p. 34:
"Because of the ambient magic in the Champions Universe, accidents that would normally kill or maim people sometimes very rarely, but sometimes cause the victims to manifest superpowers instead. It also makes genetic mutations that create superpowers possible, and allows some extremely gifted inventors to create technology the general public cant necessarily understand, use, or reproduce. However, this has no effect on the special effects of any given characters superpowers. The special effects of Defenders powers are super-technology, even though its the ambient magic that allows him to manufacture his suit of powered armor and make it work. The special effects of Sapphires powers are mutation, even though its magic that made so beneficial a mutation of her genes possible. Neither character registers as in any way magical because theyre not." [emphasis mine]
For the origins of most Champions superhumans, all magic does is loosen the laws of physics and probability enough for these transformations to happen and these powers to function. If you change the word "magic" to something else, the rest would remain the same. Very few people in the setting even suspect that a rise in the level of magic is responsible for the proliferation of super powers. Moreover, the general public by and large doesn't believe in magic. They assume that self-professed magicians are mutants, super-inventors, psionicists, or that there's some other scientific explanation for their powers. True masters of spellcraft in the CU tend to keep their abilities hidden and their knowledge secret.
To be honest, I believe a big reason why you see so many "super" wizards, demons, vampires, elves, sword-swinging barbarians, etc. in Champions Online is because so many players come here from other computer RPGs, where fantasy is the most widespread genre and these conventions are familiar to them. Many of them have little to no experience with superhero comic books and aren't familiar with the conventions of that genre. The elements mentioned above do appear in comics, as do elements from nearly every other adventure genre in fiction and folklore. But the preponderance of magical elements isn't true of comics in general, and it isn't true of Champions lore or its official characters, despite appearances to the contrary in CO.
I don't know if magic is really that overused, I seem to run into evil robots, terrorists, corporatists, and aliens as often as I run into evil magicians in this game. And the "Sorcery" powers don't necessarily need to be used for magic-themed heroes. Heck I *SHOCK* actually use Infernal Supernatural powers for "radiation" abilities for my radioactive superheroine, Ms. Chernobyl (radiation is toxic to the human body after all).
Come to think of it, I'm using the Scourge AT for Broken Arrow, who is basically a sapient radiation pattern held inside what was formerly an experimental rad suit (with a green-tinged Seraphim aura to represent ambient radiation emissions from the suit's surface)...
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Okay, then explain to me why unarmed martial arts is limited to 'Kung Fu'. Where's Krav Maga, Muay Thai, Silat, and other fighting styles, that... you know, exist?
Explain what? What does that have to do with anything? What does the game not having animations for different martial arts that some people may not even know or care for have to do with magic? Different martial arts require different animations which are a bother in themselves to make while different weapons are different models tacked on to an one set of animations. I can't fault Cryptic for what they did. That and I have not heard a huge outcry for things on these boards. Feel free to link where such a huge demand for these fighting styles are. I'm all for more options and do think that other martial art styles should be represented if possible but I don't get what this has to do with your point. That and I'm sure enough people have a generalized view of martial arts. Kung-Fu is so popular because there have been numerous TV shows and movies based around the concept. And it tends to be used as a catch-all for fighting styles as well. They shouldn't but it's all understandable. Should there be more options? Of course.
Your choices, if you don't want a 'fantasy' or 'oriental' weapon are: Random tools, the Robot Samurai Sword (Which is cool, admittedly), or other things. The melee weapons otherwise look like something out of Lord of the Rings or D&D.
I said they should provide more options. Your point doesn't really prove anything other than Cryptic thought there was a market for such things. The existence of these options does not mean suddenly that the game is now DnD or anything either. That's like saying all the munitions weapon choices are turning this game into Counterstrike. It's a stretch and an unfair generalization. I'm all for more options but very much against restricting options. I don't get this point.
It just shouldn't be everyday commonplace activity. Demons in the street, dude. Demons in the street. Now, suspend disbelief like you're supposed to. Just enough. Imagine the cultural MELTDOWN of any fictional universe if this happened.
You're assuming someone who sees a demon knows it is a demon right off the bat. In a world where Grond and such exists and has rampaged in the city before, they could just assume it is another genetic supermonster or those darned Lemurians up to no good again. That one quest where people were being turned into demons, to anyone, it looks like a mad scientist turning people into monsters as opposed to metaphysical evil spirits from another plane of existence. Even if the demon ran around screaming "I'm a demon yo, watch me spit fire!" I'm sure people would assume he was full of it or be too busy running to care.In game it is not clarified how the majority of the populace views these things but it stands to reason that they probably don't see it as demons or what not.
I do think the game could use more options that are less magic-based. I do think that they should better clarify in-game how people view magic in that universe or adopt one that people would have less issues with. The depiction of magic now, while not perfect, is understandable and makes sense by itself. Personally, I just want to see origin-based questlines - quests arranged based on what kind of character type a person plays (classic Superman hero vs. dark vigilante like Batman) . It would also be nice if certain zones were designed with the various play styles in mind as well.
"I tried to look at that page but saw only inane comments."
Explain what? What does that have to do with anything? What does the game not having animations for different martial arts that some people may not even know or care for have to do with magic? Different martial arts require different animations which are a bother in themselves to make while different weapons are different models tacked on to an one set of animations. I can't fault Cryptic for what they did. That and I have not heard a huge outcry for things on these boards. Feel free to link where such a huge demand for these fighting styles are. I'm all for more options and do think that other martial art styles should be represented if possible but I don't get what this has to do with your point. That and I'm sure enough people have a generalized view of martial arts. Kung-Fu is so popular because there have been numerous TV shows and movies based around the concept. And it tends to be used as a catch-all for fighting styles as well. They shouldn't but it's all understandable. Should there be more options? Of course.
I don't care about 'Ebon Circle Sorcery'. It does not make it less a valid option than Muay Thai, Street Brawling, or Krav Maga. Some people want it.
I don't remember anyone asking for 7 different types of magic, yet there it is. And yes, 7. I'm being nice and not counting Bestial Supernatural. I'm asking for additional power options in existing trees. Sorcery has more than enough. Unarmed combat gets 'kung fu' and the middle finger.
I said they should provide more options. Your point doesn't really prove anything other than Cryptic thought there was a market for such things. The existence of these options does not mean suddenly that the game is now DnD or anything either. That's like saying all the munitions weapon choices are turning this game into Counterstrike. It's a stretch and an unfair generalization. I'm all for more options but very much against restricting options. I don't get this point.
Except there is ONE munitions options. And SEVEN sorcery options. Please tell me where I said 'restrict options'? I keep making this point clear. Make MORE options for OTHER powers.
You're assuming someone who sees a demon knows it is a demon right off the bat. In a world where Grond and such exists and has rampaged in the city before, they could just assume it is another genetic supermonster or those darned Lemurians up to no good again. That one quest where people were being turned into demons, to anyone, it looks like a mad scientist turning people into monsters as opposed to metaphysical evil spirits from another plane of existence. Even if the demon ran around screaming "I'm a demon yo, watch me spit fire!" I'm sure people would assume he was full of it or be too busy running to care.In game it is not clarified how the majority of the populace views these things but it stands to reason that they probably don't see it as demons or what not.
I'll level with you, that's like saying 'that guy in 1700's formal wear with pale skin and fangs that turned into a bat? People might not think he's a vampire'. I mean, come on now... that's a stretch.
I do think the game could use more options that are less magic-based. I do think that they should better clarify in-game how people view magic in that universe or adopt one that people would have less issues with. The depiction of magic now, while not perfect, is understandable and makes sense by itself. Personally, I just want to see origin-based questlines - quests arranged based on what kind of character type a person plays (classic Superman hero vs. dark vigilante like Batman) . It would also be nice if certain zones were designed with the various play styles in mind as well.
I one hundred percent agree with you there. I've always been baffled as to why CO and CoX didn't have 'origin-specific' starting missions and some leveling paths. I've always thought it would be cool if you jumped onto a 'story' that was to your liking or theme, and it carried you through different zones and such.
I mean, hopefully someone comes along some day and sees what CO did right, CoX did right, and then takes a glance at what makes MMORPG's successful... and launches away.
because then they would have to think of ALL the possible origins and write up story arcs suitable for each .of them
Actually, give me one week and I can get a 'rough' idea of a generalized leveling path for a lot of different options.
One think you do have to remember, is that the Superhero 'journey' isn't a completely personal mission for self- it's a mission for others. However, I wouldn't send Batman to stop Doomsday, if you get my drift. It's less about 'what does my guy want?' and more about 'what kind of stuff is my guy more suitable for?'
To be honest, I believe a big reason why you see so many "super" wizards, demons, vampires, elves, sword-swinging barbarians, etc. in Champions Online is because so many players come here from other computer RPGs, where fantasy is the most widespread genre and these conventions are familiar to them. Many of them have little to no experience with superhero comic books and aren't familiar with the conventions of that genre. The elements mentioned above do appear in comics, as do elements from nearly every other adventure genre in fiction and folklore. But the preponderance of magical elements isn't true of comics in general, and it isn't true of Champions lore or its official characters, despite appearances to the contrary in CO.
This is why I've been emphasizing on the fact that any number of players in the game are free to create any number of magic-based superheroes as they please. The whole argument of wizards and sorcerers having to be in the super-secretive Illuminati VIP club for the sake of remaining true to CU's lore or follow similar conventions seen in other comic books comes off as ridiculous when that fact is regarded. A MMORPG adaption cannot honestly be expected to stay 100% faithful to the source material in that aspect when power customization is a huge thing going on with the game unless sorcery-themed powers are cut off from being used.
As for the other fantasy elements such as sword-swinging warriors or elves, they're found in superhero comic books. It doesn't matter just how uncommon those elements are, but the important point is that they do exist. If CO is meant to be a game that appeals to all sorts of players liking various themes found in superhero comic books, even including the ones that aren't as commonly found, then those themes should be included and tolerated.
This is why I've been emphasizing on the fact that any number of players in the game are free to create any number of magic-based superheroes as they please. The whole argument of wizards and sorcerers having to be in the super-secretive Illuminati VIP club for the sake of remaining true to CU's lore or follow similar conventions seen in other comic books comes off as ridiculous when that fact is regarded. A MMORPG adaption cannot honestly be expected to stay 100% faithful to the source material in that aspect when power customization is a huge thing going on with the game unless sorcery-themed powers are cut off from being used.
No one has said what the players can do. You can't control that. No one is trying. By all means, make what you want.
As for the other fantasy elements such as sword-swinging warriors or elves, they're found in superhero comic books. It doesn't matter just how uncommon those elements are, but the important point is that they do exist. If CO is meant to be a game that appeals to all sorts of players liking various themes found in superhero comic books, even including the ones that aren't as commonly found, then those themes should be included and tolerated.
Actually about 50% of CO's problem is that it desperately tried to please everyone.
No one has said what the players can do. You can't control that. No one is trying. By all means, make what you want.
That wasn't what I was arguing against. I'm arguing against the claim that there has to be such a limited amount magic expected in the game when the entirely opposite already exists from the player-side of things.
That wasn't what I was arguing against. I'm arguing against the claim that there has to be such a limited amount magic expected in the game when the entirely opposite already exists from the player-side of things.
Jenny, if we based this game on what most of the players made, this game would have certain anatomy (for both genders), we'd have a 'yiff' emote, and half the NPC's would say 'DESU DESU'. That's no basis for the original lore at all.
You can say we can't compare this to DC or Marvel. That's fine, I'll accept that.
But let me make a metaphor: Imagine if instead of CO, we were playing Game of Thrones Online. Except the Night's Watch has members of both genders of NPC's, Wizards are summoning dragons and unicorns all along the Kingsroad, and there's an 'Orc Tribe' in Westeros.
No one's stopping a player from being whatever they want. If you don't like what they make, don't interact. However, when the DEVELOPERS (though, not our current ones- the original writers) are blatanly butchering the lore? That's a completely different story.
No one's saying screw the magic players. We're just saying 'make the game's setting reflect the lore's setting'. It's just sad that people literally flip the hell out when magic is 'questioned', like it's some religion.
At some point, the almighty Lore has to take a back seat to game mechanics and quality-of-life. If this is too immersion-breaking for you, uninstall every game you own based on a license from another media and quit wasting everybody's time with this $#!^.
mutant-like it, hate it, shunned, exalted, thought of as a bit weird,
toxic waste-
accident(or maybe a deliberate- see experiments)
inherited,
skilled normal,
extra planar- good, neutral, evil, fae,
other dimesion- not the same as extra planar
normal but with high tech devices,
other planet
military experiment- note all 3 come with voluntary, involuntary, working for, running from, escaped, attacking
private experimant
criminal experiment
grant destiny
"I found this ring"-similar to high tech devices but 1 item
revenge
philanthropist
know it all
egocentric or megalomaniac(yes they can be heroes, just kind of weird)
pretender- trying to trick someone into thinking they are an actual hero
family business
making up for family(one of mine has that, sorry 2)
I want to be famous
There's a few to start with
Hey, I never said you were. But there are some really, really obsessed people on these forums that cling to it like a religion.
And you can keep that stance. But when someone proposes an thread with 'what would you do different/what would you improve'- you can't flip out because people want it to be less silly and more in line with its lore.
I'd be just as hard on any other game that blatantly disrespected its source, especially if the end product was a parody.
mutant-like it, hate it, shunned, exalted, thought of as a bit weird,
toxic waste-
accident(or maybe a deliberate- see experiments)
inherited,
skilled normal,
extra planar- good, neutral, evil, fae,
other dimesion- not the same as extra planar
normal but with high tech devices,
other planet
military experiment- note all 3 come with voluntary, involuntary, working for, running from, escaped, attacking
private experimant
criminal experiment
grant destiny
"I found this ring"-similar to high tech devices but 1 item
revenge
philanthropist
know it all
egocentric or megalomaniac(yes they can be heroes, just kind of weird)
pretender- trying to trick someone into thinking they are an actual hero
family business
making up for family(one of mine has that, sorry 2)
I want to be famous
There's a few to start with
That's... a pretty big list. More than I had in mind, wow.
At some point, the almighty Lore has to take a back seat to game mechanics and quality-of-life. If this is too immersion-breaking for you, uninstall every game you own based on a license from another media and quit wasting everybody's time with this $#!^.
Except making magical NPC just using more civilian/urban fantasy skin (as it is done with magical communities in WoD, for example) is entirely within base game mechanic. It would be just a different skin for NPCs, a few different lines in their dialogue and a different map for their stores.
Nothing even remotely changing their utility or the way how they are used in game. So this "only a game" and "for the playability" argument doesn't really hold water.
All it takes is slightly more attention to the setting and detail. And actually base the game more closely on its licence, instead of ignoring it.
Now look how Blizzard made their Warlock trainers. It is a game not based on any original IP, entirely their own setting. And it still follows internal logic of the setting. Since demonologists aren't trusted in most societies, their trainers there are moved away from public eye, either to some basement, or private sanctum. But their functionality is the same as every other trainer ingame.
Because it is not very possible to blindly defend badly done adaptation, when doing it right would be the same, utility-wise.
This kind of argument is just foolish, when it changes, well... Nothing.
Because it is not very possible to blindly defend badly done adaptation, when doing it right would be the same, utility-wise.
This kind of argument is just foolish, when it changes, well... Nothing.
Dismissed.
Right, I feel so schooled by someone being a know-it-all about accurate adaptions, while using sweeping, hyperbolic statements, calling the game "D&D / swords and sorcery in tights" when that claim is obviously and blatantly false.
All right, I think at this point everyone for the most part can agree with the fact that Champions 2.0 (or whatever) would probably do better with more writing, expanded powersets for every power type, and staying faithful to source material as closely as possible without restricting players.
Also, this why if I honestly ever made a game? It wouldn't be a superhero/comic book game. This is also why I rarely speak to anyone in the comic shop except the clerk.
Anyway, personally I'd like the thrown weapons like the boomerangs to be expanded. Seems like an incomplete idea.
Right, I feel so schooled by someone being a know-it-all about accurate adaptions, while using sweeping, hyperbolic statements, calling the game "D&D / swords and sorcery in tights" when that claim is obviously and blatantly false.
The fact that you are, as usual, taking every word literally and you can do nothing else than claim false based on it...
Shows that you are, as usual, unable to admit being wrong.
I gather you aren't into comic books. People have different tastes and you may prefer animu. Your choice. But don't preten being always better informed, kk?
I gather you aren't into comic books and can't understan it. People have different tastes and you may prefer animu. Your choice. But don't preten being always better informed, kk?
What if there were a way to take every 'type' of powerset, and without copycatting and covering it with fancy effects... and give the players the ability to make any 'role' within that tree effectively? If this were possible, could you see CO monetizing 'Freeform Lite' where you choose 'technology', or 'magic', or 'Martial Arts'?
What if there were a way to take every 'type' of powerset, and without copycatting and covering it with fancy effects... and give the players the ability to make any 'role' within that tree effectively? If this were possible, could you see CO monetizing 'Freeform Lite' where you choose 'technology', or 'magic', or 'Martial Arts'?
I'd do something like....
Have a huge selection of powers of all types. Energy projection. Melee. Martial Arts. Firearms. Telekinesis. Elemental Control. Gadgetry. Beastial Mimicry. Etc etc. Have the selection grouped into two tiers (explained later on).
The player would have a wide range of choices from the first tier at the start upon creation but can only take a limited number. There would be no tree system: Everything would be available for grabs in the first tier. After that the player selects their origin regardless of their power choices. Magic. Tech. Mutation etc. Each origin would have their own set of unique buffs and bonuses that increase in number and efficiency every time the player levels up. Every time the player levels up they unlock more powers. When the player reaches a certain mid-range level, then they unlock the second tier of powers to choose from as described earlier.
When having completed their first tier of power selections, the player would be allowed to choose their first "ultimate" power. The same would apply when completing the second tier. This would prevent the player from choosing an uber powerful power right from the beginning.
This way, powers wouldn't have to be pigeon-holed into predefined origins. It would allow for outlandish ideas like using harnessing magic energies to build high-tech gadgets, or technological enhancements to make the hero into a brick powerhouse as examples. I don't think that would be far-fetched at all.
First pick a base power e.g. Spray (Maintained AoE cone), Blast (Charged AoE cone), Stream (Maintained Single Target), Shot (Charged Single Target), Eruption (Charged PBAoE), Vortex (Maintained PBAoE), Combo (Melee Single Target), Frenzy (Melee PBAoE), Active Offense etc. This determines base damage and energy cost.
After that slot the Fighting Style mod. This determines where the attack comes from and how the animation looks like - head, hands, equipped weapon etc. Weapons with alternate animations may be sold in the cash shop, e.g. dual blades in reverse grip, single handgun using the gangsta sideway grip, single blade using the fencing style and so on.
Then tack on the Element mod, which affects VFX. However, some weapons e.g. pistols, bows, will override projectile VFX to bullets or arrows regardless, although impact VFX may still be affected by element, e.g. Fire bullets and arrows may explode in flames.
Some weapons may be available that are locked to a certain element too, like Flamethrowers, Tesla Guns, Particle Beam Handguns/Rifles, Laser Swords - all very sellable as Cash Shop customization options. Melee attacks will also allow different elements. Element type determines proc effect e.g. Clinging Flames, Chill etc. More practical procs will come with a higher energy cost. Maintains and combos have an innately lower proc chance than charges.
Optionally, pick Synergy mod. This is a warmover from legacy CO that stays to encourage people to take a variety of attacks. Synergy effects include things like +X% increased proc chance, +X% crit severity on Chilled, ignores X% Defense on Clinging Flames etc, so that ideally players will go for a state applier and a state exploiter.
This opens up the way for more variety. We're not locked to an undesirable emanation point for a desired attack anymore *glares at Fire Breath for non-dragons*, and when the power system is designed that way, it means less shoehorning into pick Power X and Y to debuff/self-buff so that you can spam Power Z for uber damage. Instead of being locked into say, Thunderbolt and Lightning Arc or Fire Snake and Ice Blast, you can pick what is your power X and what is your power Y. And if a state is OP it's a trivial enough task to adjust the mod effect.
I wish it would be more like Champions PnP. We each have a points total with which we buy powers, skills, talents and characteristics. We then choose the damage dealt by the power, advantages, eg armour piercing, autofire, maintained and limitations, not underwater, a focus, such as a weapon as well as type, eg physical, energy, mental or magical.
We could start at 250 points and each level get 5 more. Thus at level 40, we would be similar to a fully matured superhero in the mainstream comics.
I wish it would be more like Champions PnP. We each have a points total with which we buy powers, skills, talents and characteristics. We then choose the damage dealt by the power, advantages, eg armour piercing, autofire, maintained and limitations, not underwater, a focus, such as a weapon as well as type, eg physical, energy, mental or magical.
We could start at 250 points and each level get 5 more. Thus at level 40, we would be similar to a fully matured superhero in the mainstream comics.
I'd love that too. Except that Cryptic would then need a staff of GMs to approve (or not) each character, because I've seen what some clever players can get up to in the original system. (In 3rd edition I once built a spider-power-based toon, the Arachnid, on a budget of 300 points total. He was more powerful, and had more varied abilities, than Spider-Man! Elemental controls and multipowers can be fun...)
Next best, I think, is a suggestion from upthread - from Cyber, I think? - that each character would be allowed to select two power trees, and all subsequent choices would be from those trees. After all, Superman is a flying brick with energy-projector powers - suddenly grabbing a sword or a gun, or wielding magic, wouldn't make any sense for him...
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
I'd love that too. Except that Cryptic would then need a staff of GMs to approve (or not) each character, because I've seen what some clever players can get up to in the original system. (In 3rd edition I once built a spider-power-based toon, the Arachnid, on a budget of 300 points total. He was more powerful, and had more varied abilities, than Spider-Man! Elemental controls and multipowers can be fun...)
Next best, I think, is a suggestion from upthread - from Cyber, I think? - that each character would be allowed to select two power trees, and all subsequent choices would be from those trees. After all, Superman is a flying brick with energy-projector powers - suddenly grabbing a sword or a gun, or wielding magic, wouldn't make any sense for him...
Really man? You cant see why perhaps a man with overwhelmingly powerful psionic powers might choose to bury them deep within only using them for the most dire life and death situations, and otherwise favoring conventional and or advanced weaponry and fighting skills instead?
That was always one of the things I loved most about Grifter he was kind of a refined version of cable to me, a skilled soldier lost from his own time, burdened with power no mortal man should have to carry, and desperate to keep it secret and safe from misuse while fighting a war that can never really be won and will only end with his death.
Then to follow that up he during his travels fell in love with an immortal alien warrior who performed what might best be discribed as an alien mystical ceremony to bind them in blood and shared with him the gift of longevity, and also trained him in skills so secret and deadly he was the first and only man to fully undergo the training, men like alexander the great had failed to make the cut and still managed to change the course of human history.
So we have a character who is a raised street tough and con man, sent to war and trained as a covert special forces solider, experiences exposure to super science chemicals to become gifted with gawd like psi powers, who then gains advanced alien fighting techniques and near agelessness through a otherworldly spiritual ritual. A man who could tear asunder cities with a thought, who chooses to fight as an ordinary man, a man who could spend centuries planning the perfect world conquest choosing to live in the moment eternally.
Next best, I think, is a suggestion from upthread - from Cyber, I think? - that each character would be allowed to select two power trees, and all subsequent choices would be from those trees. After all, Superman is a flying brick with energy-projector powers - suddenly grabbing a sword or a gun, or wielding magic, wouldn't make any sense for him...
U wot m8?
That said I cant get behind an idea like that. Being able to give a character almost any kind of power is part of the charm of this game, granted you're paying for freeform. To create a system where that doesn't exist would feel like a step back to some people.
"I tried to look at that page but saw only inane comments."
Really man? You cant see why perhaps a man with overwhelmingly powerful psionic powers might choose to bury them deep within only using them for the most dire life and death situations, and otherwise favoring conventional and or advanced weaponry and fighting skills instead?
That was always one of the things I loved most about Grifter he was kind of a refined version of cable to me, a skilled soldier lost from his own time, burdened with power no mortal man should have to carry, and desperate to keep it secret and safe from misuse while fighting a war that can never really be won and will only end with his death.
Then to follow that up he during his travels fell in love with an immortal alien warrior who performed what might best be discribed as an alien mystical ceremony to bind them in blood and shared with him the gift of longevity, and also trained him in skills so secret and deadly he was the first and only man to fully undergo the training, men like alexander the great had failed to make the cut and still managed to change the course of human history.
So we have a character who is a raised street tough and con man, sent to war and trained as a covert special forces solider, experiences exposure to super science chemicals to become gifted with gawd like psi powers, who then gains advanced alien fighting techniques and near agelessness through a otherworldly spiritual ritual. A man who could tear asunder cities with a thought, who chooses to fight as an ordinary man, a man who could spend centuries planning the perfect world conquest choosing to live in the moment eternally.
So, Munitions and Psi. "Immortality" isn't really something that comes up in-game - none of us can be killed, we just respawn.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
I'd love that too. Except that Cryptic would then need a staff of GMs to approve (or not) each character, because I've seen what some clever players can get up to in the original system. (In 3rd edition I once built a spider-power-based toon, the Arachnid, on a budget of 300 points total. He was more powerful, and had more varied abilities, than Spider-Man! Elemental controls and multipowers can be fun...)
Next best, I think, is a suggestion from upthread - from Cyber, I think? - that each character would be allowed to select two power trees, and all subsequent choices would be from those trees. After all, Superman is a flying brick with energy-projector powers - suddenly grabbing a sword or a gun, or wielding magic, wouldn't make any sense for him...
Yeah many powers would have to be banned or heavily restricted. For example killing attacks with no normal defences would be a big no no. Even worse, imagine a multipower with each slot taking a different NND, so that whatever defence the mob had, it could be ignored. Or a toon with attacks useable whilst desolid and who was also desolid all the time? Besides the full set of PnP rules would be very daunting to many first timers. But, I still think a simplified version with no environmental controls or multipowers could work. Maybe a small cost discount could be allowed when you take powers of a similar type, say fire powers, to encourage thematic builds and thus compensate for no ECs.
So, Munitions and Psi. "Immortality" isn't really something that comes up in-game - none of us can be killed, we just respawn.
I did lampshade it in few of my character concepts. Their only superpower is immortality via respawn. Can be killed, but power cosmic will recreate them anyway. :biggrin:
You had a bunch of powers that basically had a range, type, damage, etc.
So, one guy's 2GM was another guy's laser eyes which was another guy's dark tendrils, etc...
After that you just chose an animation and effect to represent it.
So let's just say I wanted to create a hi-tech martial artist? Instead of just launching into a flying kick, he could have boosters on his back that sent him flying. Of it I wanted to make a ninja and use something like 2gM, he could just rapidly hurl shurikens instead.
You had a bunch of powers that basically had a range, type, damage, etc.
So, one guy's 2GM was another guy's laser eyes which was another guy's dark tendrils, etc...
After that you just chose an animation and effect to represent it.
So let's just say I wanted to create a hi-tech martial artist? Instead of just launching into a flying kick, he could have boosters on his back that sent him flying. Of it I wanted to make a ninja and use something like 2gM, he could just rapidly hurl shurikens instead.
That is pretty much the Hero System. Mechanical effect and visual effect were separate entities.
Come to think of it, I'm using the Scourge AT for Broken Arrow, who is basically a sapient radiation pattern held inside what was formerly an experimental rad suit (with a green-tinged Seraphim aura to represent ambient radiation emissions from the suit's surface)...
Yeah, Infernal Supernatural is a great set for radiation themed heroes. One power is like an actual nuke going off. Ms. Chernobyl is a Freeform herself, and also makes use of several Fire powers and attacks as well as eye beams from Power Armor (all colored green).
One of my character's Nemesis, Poison Lips, also uses Infernal Supernatural as "poison" because, once again, the toxic effect.
The power set names in this game are rather misleading. While they appear to be "meant for a theme" they are versatile enough to be used outside of that theme.
The power set names in this game are rather misleading. While they appear to be "meant for a theme" they are versatile enough to be used outside of that theme.
^^^ This, so much this.
All too often people get hung up on the name of the power or the name of the set. Sure there are powers whose appearance pigeon holes them, but others can be pretty much whatever you want them to be.
You had a bunch of powers that basically had a range, type, damage, etc.
So, one guy's 2GM was another guy's laser eyes which was another guy's dark tendrils, etc...
After that you just chose an animation and effect to represent it.
So let's just say I wanted to create a hi-tech martial artist? Instead of just launching into a flying kick, he could have boosters on his back that sent him flying. Of it I wanted to make a ninja and use something like 2gM, he could just rapidly hurl shurikens instead.
not to shill for the new guy, but that is what they plan for project phoenix. of course, plan is the operative term, but yeah, if that comes together, then there ya go.
not to shill for the new guy, but that is what they plan for project phoenix. of course, plan is the operative term, but yeah, if that comes together, then there ya go.
I was looking at Valiance, and it's in early EARLY alpha... and it pretty much looks like...
soory, meant city of titans, have not been following the others, not out of any animosity, but just trying to keep resources unified.
I figured. I've seen a little on it, and none of it... well, they keep sayin 'It's the spiritual successor!'... but none of these people have real experience.
though i am motivated by compulsive punning to ask if valence was just a shell of a game at this alpha stage.
It looked like early alpha... but like, I can't make a real decision. Nothing much to it. Just the basics.
Honestly, if they're just going to make the same game all over again, I'll pass. However, if they beefed up customization a lot? Improve the graphics? Update the story? I'd be sold.
oh, i know, just wanted to make a valence shell joke. you could say i am guilty as charged on the puns.
I guess you could put that spin on it.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Really? Opponents - evil mages, cultists, demons, undead. Takofanes is painfully trope evil necromancer who fits more into DnD book than for modern metropolis. Even his look is pure fantasy.
Swap evil guards with swords for thugs with guns and you have CO. More or less.
Oh, we are missing dragons. For now.
We have Dragons as a power, and Two Hi-Pan missions.
Okay, then explain to me why unarmed martial arts is limited to 'Kung Fu'. Where's Krav Maga, Muay Thai, Silat, and other fighting styles, that... you know, exist?
I don't see how that proves anything though. That's just Cryptic providing options. I will admit that they could add more stuff but people like options. I don't think this indicates some sort of failing of the game or its design focus. As Jalen Rose says, gotta to give the people what they want. Again, I can understand wanting more options but that's about it. I don't think this reflects some focus on magic either since most of that stuff is just them providing options for people. [/quote[
Your choices, if you don't want a 'fantasy' or 'oriental' weapon are: Random tools, the Robot Samurai Sword (Which is cool, admittedly), or other things. The melee weapons otherwise look like something out of Lord of the Rings or D&D.
For the most part yes, though there are Alien tech and regular tech choices, they just are not the best.
The people who wrote the setting for the game, that's who.
It's not that it doesn't exist. It SHOULD exist. I don't mind it EXISTING.
It just shouldn't be everyday commonplace activity. Demons in the street, dude. Demons in the street. Now, suspend disbelief like you're supposed to. Just enough. Imagine the cultural MELTDOWN of any fictional universe if this happened.
Now you are just getting silly. This is an MMO, that kind'a thing is common place. In the real world you do not see a thousand gang members out side. That would have huge social ramifications as well. You might as well complain that we see the same thugs over and over.
These two giants are the inspiration behind an overwhelming majority of what has been done by everyone.
I'm not saying it 'should be real', but magic is not something that should be acknowledged as such. The fire mage? He's 'totally a pyrokinetic mutant'. That sorceress that summoned a monster is 'an illusionist psionic' that is battering her opponenty with a hardlight creation that looks scary. So on and so forth.
Couldn't disagree more. Both DC and Marvel have HUGE magical influences. The average person is going to think something is magic before they think of Hardlight, or Pyrokenesis as well.
I'm not saying it 'shouldn't exist. I'm saying that it shouldn't be openly acknowledged by people in the setting as a part of everyday life. Sure, heroes might be aware of it... but even then, he may rationalize it as something else. It shouldn't be considered as real and normal as Autism.
Again, this makes little sense. Especially in the Champions world. One of the most famous Heros in the Champions world is a female Magic wielder.
Yes, they do. And so do OTHER WEAPONS. It's not a matter of 'take them away', it's more a matter of 'remember there's other stuff'.
For the most part yes, though there are Alien tech and regular tech choices, they just are not the best.
Yet we have many, many more Oriental/Fantasy options. This is my point.
I say "I want to see more X", someone goes "You already have that." Yet we have plenty- TONS of oriental and fantasy options for weaponry, and when I say we need something aside from that, I'm pretty much told "This is acceptable and we should have more, STFU".
Now you are just getting silly. This is an MMO, that kind'a thing is common place. In the real world you do not see a thousand gang members out side. That would have huge social ramifications as well. You might as well complain that we see the same thugs over and over.
Oh, no- I've already stated that something is wrong with the fact that the Superhero capital of the United States is overrun with supercriminals, terrorist cells, gangs, demons... the truth is, if I had it to do- Millennium City would be a hub zone. I had this same gripe with City of Heroes as well.
Couldn't disagree more. Both DC and Marvel have HUGE magical influences. The average person is going to think something is magic before they think of Hardlight, or Pyrokenesis as well.
Yes, they do. Is it 50% of their content or more? No. It is not. Let's take the 'big 4' of each. Batman, Superman, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman. One of four. Same with the Avengers- Iron Man, Hawkeye, Captain America, Thor. One of four. I say that's a pretty fair standard.
When I say 'add more other stuff', people assume I'm saying 'magic doesn't belong here'. I'm saying magic should not be as overwhelmingly prevalent as it is in CO. Even CO's setting says it's not out in the open like this.
I'm saying 'add more other stuff, too'. If the overwhelming majority of the game was ninjas and superspies, science fiction, or whatever- I'd say to tone it back and spotlight more. The truth is, magic themes are easier for developers and writers.
People keep saying 'this is an MMORPG'. I say that's fine, but if I wanted a magical character I'd go get one of the many, many magic-infested fantasy games out there. I would like a setting with a more diverse appeal. Adding more magic isn't making it diverse, it's turning it into the other garbage I've been trying to avoid.
At least CoX had a means for you to avoid most of the magic-focused missions (not all, but many).
Again, this makes little sense. Especially in the Champions world. One of the most famous Heros in the Champions world is a female Magic wielder.
And according to lore, if I'm not mistaken, she is not openly acknowledged as a 'sorceress', just a 'superhero with strange powers'. She is also an absurdly rare type. One of the Champions is also an extraterrestrial, yet we have, what... two alien races we encounter in the game? If I'm not mistaken Champions has a mountain of alien races and technology source material.
Again, people are assuming I'm saying 'gut it out'. I'm saying 'focus on the other stuff for a bit'. There are plenty of other themes out there, but jumping on the magic and mysticism constantly is just lazy and cheap. You can just hijack something from D&D or [insert mythology] and call it a day.
Now, I have said it in the past- if Cryptic made a fantasy-themed game with this level of customization and based off the Fantasy Hero setting? Yeah, I'd be all over.
You people consistently assume I hate magic, fantasy, mysticism, etc. No, that's not the case. I don't hate pickles but I don't want 2 inch-thick stacks of it on my hamburger with a 1/4 slice of cheese slapped on there. If someone served me that burger and said it was 'balanced with condiments', he'd be unemployed.
You chopped this up, so I'll try to fix and respond.
Yet we have many, many more Oriental/Fantasy options. This is my point.
I say "I want to see more X", someone goes "You already have that." Yet we have plenty- TONS of oriental and fantasy options for weaponry, and when I say we need something aside from that, I'm pretty much told "This is acceptable and we should have more, STFU".
Oh, no- I've already stated that something is wrong with the fact that the Superhero capital of the United States is overrun with supercriminals, terrorist cells, gangs, demons... the truth is, if I had it to do- Millennium City would be a hub zone. I had this same gripe with City of Heroes as well.
Yes, they do. Is it 50% of their content or more? No. It is not. Let's take the 'big 4' of each. Batman, Superman, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman. One of four. Same with the Avengers- Iron Man, Hawkeye, Captain America, Thor. One of four. I say that's a pretty fair standard.
When I say 'add more other stuff', people assume I'm saying 'magic doesn't belong here'. I'm saying magic should not be as overwhelmingly prevalent as it is in CO. Even CO's setting says it's not out in the open like this.
I'm saying 'add more other stuff, too'. If the overwhelming majority of the game was ninjas and superspies, science fiction, or whatever- I'd say to tone it back and spotlight more. The truth is, magic themes are easier for developers and writers.
People keep saying 'this is an MMORPG'. I say that's fine, but if I wanted a magical character I'd go get one of the many, many magic-infested fantasy games out there. I would like a setting with a more diverse appeal. Adding more magic isn't making it diverse, it's turning it into the other garbage I've been trying to avoid.
At least CoX had a means for you to avoid most of the magic-focused missions (not all, but many).
And according to lore, if I'm not mistaken, she is not openly acknowledged as a 'sorceress', just a 'superhero with strange powers'. She is also an absurdly rare type. One of the Champions is also an extraterrestrial, yet we have, what... two alien races we encounter in the game? If I'm not mistaken Champions has a mountain of alien races and technology source material.
Again, people are assuming I'm saying 'gut it out'. I'm saying 'focus on the other stuff for a bit'. There are plenty of other themes out there, but jumping on the magic and mysticism constantly is just lazy and cheap. You can just hijack something from D&D or [insert mythology] and call it a day.
Now, I have said it in the past- if Cryptic made a fantasy-themed game with this level of customization and based off the Fantasy Hero setting? Yeah, I'd be all over.
You people consistently assume I hate magic, fantasy, mysticism, etc. No, that's not the case. I don't hate pickles but I don't want 2 inch-thick stacks of it on my hamburger with a 1/4 slice of cheese slapped on there. If someone served me that burger and said it was 'balanced with condiments', he'd be unemployed.
One mistake that you and many people make is that you like to go to the "source material" sadley the source material doesn't mean squat here. Which sucks, but this game has already had many things changed verse the P&P lore in horrible ways.
In CO lore Witchcraft has been very open about being a mage. Magic has disappeared from the majority of the new content (yes it is small) and replaced with Tech and Science.
And you are way off! It more like 4 aliens were encounter, yeesh!
Personally I would love to see tons more non-Magical additions. I have been crying for Mechanon since launch. I have just learned that if it is something we really want in game, it will either never be made or done horribly wrong and not in the fashion we wished for.
We'll probably have Mechanon some day, but it'll be another half-baked temp event that comes with 15-minutes of content plus an Alert and a Mechanon lockbox.
We'll probably have Mechanon some day, but it'll be another half-baked temp event that comes with 15-minutes of content plus an Alert and a Mechanon lockbox.
I would be okay with it as long as the lockboxes were Angry ATM lockboxes
Comments
as for your knife idea...that could work. My only claws chars are hovering around 8, so ill have to research that one more.
and as for the modern melee weapons,id be interested to see, but one caveat. i see some of the crazy kit-rae and bud k stuff, and they are cool from a certain aesthetic perspective, but from a functional perspective, each weird jutting blade part and serration just draws me out of it. yeah they have cool spikes on them, but functionally they would work horribly for actually cutting anything mobile enough to try to avoid being cut. now i think gerber makes some neat looking machetes, but not sure how much of the look you could copy before someone needs to get paid.
The thing is, what bugs me the most about 'Martial Arts'? It's that the whole variety seems like it was thrown together. I personally think there should be 'martial arts' and 'melee weapons' that are completely different- and factor in those of us who like the idea of 'hitting a dude with a thing' without giving us blood and stabby-murder attacks if we want to use a baseball bat or sticks or a trout or Jonsills old man cane.
Okay, let's just say you want to make a 'sword guy', right? All right. So do I. Now, let's pretend you want to make a 'Ninja Warrior' and I want to make a 'Reincarnated Spartan'. These are both 'sword guys', sort of...
But the problem is, these are the same thing. If you want to use a less 'flashy' swordsman, you have to go with Heavy Weapons... which is fine, unless you wanted a 'normal' sword. Your Swordsman uses finesse, mine uses strength and efficiency. But in game? We're doing the same thing.
So while I can see a 'martial art' that revolves around swords, fighting claws, and even 'bare hands'? It' excludes the other 'sword' concepts.
Which is a really roundabout way of me just saying this: "Champions Online focused too much on magic, and not enough on other things". And it might be an 'animation' issue, but still... look at technology. "Laser Sword" seems just hurled in there with Power Armor, and that makes absolutely no sense to me (except for the plasma burn thing). It's a series of powers that deserved its own seperate category in technology.
Not to mention the 'chain' powers thrown into two different sets. I'd like to see an entire 'lash/chain/whip' power set on its own.
And to this very day, I am baffled as to why no one put a shield or staff powerset in the game. But hey, we got every brand of sorcery you can throw a "T" rating on.
Thanks, I was trying to remember this yesterday. Someone was asking about how a mask should look, I said it should look like 'those damned Japanese dudes that whack each other with sticks, whatever you call that'.
LOOLOLOLOLOLBUDK.
Seriously, have you watched Arrow? it's like every prop there cost less than $20.00 out of the Budk catalog.
If you want good 'tools' that are similar to melee weapons, I can dig you some up. I would also highly, HIGHLY recommend a tomahawk. And don't get a SOG- I've broken 2 of them on a rotten log. Get a full-tang from CRKT or Omnivore.
Repeating because its worth repeating IMO.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Explain what? What does that have to do with anything? What does the game not having animations for different martial arts that some people may not even know or care for have to do with magic? Different martial arts require different animations which are a bother in themselves to make while different weapons are different models tacked on to an one set of animations. I can't fault Cryptic for what they did. That and I have not heard a huge outcry for things on these boards. Feel free to link where such a huge demand for these fighting styles are. I'm all for more options and do think that other martial art styles should be represented if possible but I don't get what this has to do with your point. That and I'm sure enough people have a generalized view of martial arts. Kung-Fu is so popular because there have been numerous TV shows and movies based around the concept. And it tends to be used as a catch-all for fighting styles as well. They shouldn't but it's all understandable. Should there be more options? Of course.
I said they should provide more options. Your point doesn't really prove anything other than Cryptic thought there was a market for such things. The existence of these options does not mean suddenly that the game is now DnD or anything either. That's like saying all the munitions weapon choices are turning this game into Counterstrike. It's a stretch and an unfair generalization. I'm all for more options but very much against restricting options. I don't get this point.
You're assuming someone who sees a demon knows it is a demon right off the bat. In a world where Grond and such exists and has rampaged in the city before, they could just assume it is another genetic supermonster or those darned Lemurians up to no good again. That one quest where people were being turned into demons, to anyone, it looks like a mad scientist turning people into monsters as opposed to metaphysical evil spirits from another plane of existence. Even if the demon ran around screaming "I'm a demon yo, watch me spit fire!" I'm sure people would assume he was full of it or be too busy running to care.In game it is not clarified how the majority of the populace views these things but it stands to reason that they probably don't see it as demons or what not.
I do think the game could use more options that are less magic-based. I do think that they should better clarify in-game how people view magic in that universe or adopt one that people would have less issues with. The depiction of magic now, while not perfect, is understandable and makes sense by itself. Personally, I just want to see origin-based questlines - quests arranged based on what kind of character type a person plays (classic Superman hero vs. dark vigilante like Batman) . It would also be nice if certain zones were designed with the various play styles in mind as well.
I don't care about 'Ebon Circle Sorcery'. It does not make it less a valid option than Muay Thai, Street Brawling, or Krav Maga. Some people want it.
I don't remember anyone asking for 7 different types of magic, yet there it is. And yes, 7. I'm being nice and not counting Bestial Supernatural. I'm asking for additional power options in existing trees. Sorcery has more than enough. Unarmed combat gets 'kung fu' and the middle finger.
Except there is ONE munitions options. And SEVEN sorcery options. Please tell me where I said 'restrict options'? I keep making this point clear. Make MORE options for OTHER powers.
I'll level with you, that's like saying 'that guy in 1700's formal wear with pale skin and fangs that turned into a bat? People might not think he's a vampire'. I mean, come on now... that's a stretch.
I one hundred percent agree with you there. I've always been baffled as to why CO and CoX didn't have 'origin-specific' starting missions and some leveling paths. I've always thought it would be cool if you jumped onto a 'story' that was to your liking or theme, and it carried you through different zones and such.
I mean, hopefully someone comes along some day and sees what CO did right, CoX did right, and then takes a glance at what makes MMORPG's successful... and launches away.
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Actually, give me one week and I can get a 'rough' idea of a generalized leveling path for a lot of different options.
One think you do have to remember, is that the Superhero 'journey' isn't a completely personal mission for self- it's a mission for others. However, I wouldn't send Batman to stop Doomsday, if you get my drift. It's less about 'what does my guy want?' and more about 'what kind of stuff is my guy more suitable for?'
This. In the very unlikely event we get a new hire to work on powers. I want throat punch and instep crush.
More punching, tons of other martial skills, and also, punching.
This is why I've been emphasizing on the fact that any number of players in the game are free to create any number of magic-based superheroes as they please. The whole argument of wizards and sorcerers having to be in the super-secretive Illuminati VIP club for the sake of remaining true to CU's lore or follow similar conventions seen in other comic books comes off as ridiculous when that fact is regarded. A MMORPG adaption cannot honestly be expected to stay 100% faithful to the source material in that aspect when power customization is a huge thing going on with the game unless sorcery-themed powers are cut off from being used.
As for the other fantasy elements such as sword-swinging warriors or elves, they're found in superhero comic books. It doesn't matter just how uncommon those elements are, but the important point is that they do exist. If CO is meant to be a game that appeals to all sorts of players liking various themes found in superhero comic books, even including the ones that aren't as commonly found, then those themes should be included and tolerated.
No one has said what the players can do. You can't control that. No one is trying. By all means, make what you want.
Actually about 50% of CO's problem is that it desperately tried to please everyone.
That wasn't what I was arguing against. I'm arguing against the claim that there has to be such a limited amount magic expected in the game when the entirely opposite already exists from the player-side of things.
I can't fault them for trying rather than be selective about it.
Jenny, if we based this game on what most of the players made, this game would have certain anatomy (for both genders), we'd have a 'yiff' emote, and half the NPC's would say 'DESU DESU'. That's no basis for the original lore at all.
You can say we can't compare this to DC or Marvel. That's fine, I'll accept that.
But let me make a metaphor: Imagine if instead of CO, we were playing Game of Thrones Online. Except the Night's Watch has members of both genders of NPC's, Wizards are summoning dragons and unicorns all along the Kingsroad, and there's an 'Orc Tribe' in Westeros.
No one's stopping a player from being whatever they want. If you don't like what they make, don't interact. However, when the DEVELOPERS (though, not our current ones- the original writers) are blatanly butchering the lore? That's a completely different story.
No one's saying screw the magic players. We're just saying 'make the game's setting reflect the lore's setting'. It's just sad that people literally flip the hell out when magic is 'questioned', like it's some religion.
The state of the game says I can.
My new stance on the matter:
toxic waste-
accident(or maybe a deliberate- see experiments)
inherited,
skilled normal,
extra planar- good, neutral, evil, fae,
other dimesion- not the same as extra planar
normal but with high tech devices,
other planet
military experiment- note all 3 come with voluntary, involuntary, working for, running from, escaped, attacking
private experimant
criminal experiment
grant destiny
"I found this ring"-similar to high tech devices but 1 item
revenge
philanthropist
know it all
egocentric or megalomaniac(yes they can be heroes, just kind of weird)
pretender- trying to trick someone into thinking they are an actual hero
family business
making up for family(one of mine has that, sorry 2)
I want to be famous
There's a few to start with
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Hey, I never said you were. But there are some really, really obsessed people on these forums that cling to it like a religion.
And you can keep that stance. But when someone proposes an thread with 'what would you do different/what would you improve'- you can't flip out because people want it to be less silly and more in line with its lore.
I'd be just as hard on any other game that blatantly disrespected its source, especially if the end product was a parody.
That's... a pretty big list. More than I had in mind, wow.
My OLD stance, even more valid:
Because it is not very possible to blindly defend badly done adaptation, when doing it right would be the same, utility-wise.
This kind of argument is just foolish, when it changes, well... Nothing.
Dismissed.
Right, I feel so schooled by someone being a know-it-all about accurate adaptions, while using sweeping, hyperbolic statements, calling the game "D&D / swords and sorcery in tights" when that claim is obviously and blatantly false.
Also, this why if I honestly ever made a game? It wouldn't be a superhero/comic book game. This is also why I rarely speak to anyone in the comic shop except the clerk.
Anyway, personally I'd like the thrown weapons like the boomerangs to be expanded. Seems like an incomplete idea.
The fact that you are, as usual, taking every word literally and you can do nothing else than claim false based on it...
Shows that you are, as usual, unable to admit being wrong.
I gather you aren't into comic books. People have different tastes and you may prefer animu. Your choice. But don't preten being always better informed, kk?
Ahahaha.
/10chars
What if there were a way to take every 'type' of powerset, and without copycatting and covering it with fancy effects... and give the players the ability to make any 'role' within that tree effectively? If this were possible, could you see CO monetizing 'Freeform Lite' where you choose 'technology', or 'magic', or 'Martial Arts'?
I'd do something like....
Have a huge selection of powers of all types. Energy projection. Melee. Martial Arts. Firearms. Telekinesis. Elemental Control. Gadgetry. Beastial Mimicry. Etc etc. Have the selection grouped into two tiers (explained later on).
The player would have a wide range of choices from the first tier at the start upon creation but can only take a limited number. There would be no tree system: Everything would be available for grabs in the first tier. After that the player selects their origin regardless of their power choices. Magic. Tech. Mutation etc. Each origin would have their own set of unique buffs and bonuses that increase in number and efficiency every time the player levels up. Every time the player levels up they unlock more powers. When the player reaches a certain mid-range level, then they unlock the second tier of powers to choose from as described earlier.
When having completed their first tier of power selections, the player would be allowed to choose their first "ultimate" power. The same would apply when completing the second tier. This would prevent the player from choosing an uber powerful power right from the beginning.
This way, powers wouldn't have to be pigeon-holed into predefined origins. It would allow for outlandish ideas like using harnessing magic energies to build high-tech gadgets, or technological enhancements to make the hero into a brick powerhouse as examples. I don't think that would be far-fetched at all.
Something like the vehicle system.
First pick a base power e.g. Spray (Maintained AoE cone), Blast (Charged AoE cone), Stream (Maintained Single Target), Shot (Charged Single Target), Eruption (Charged PBAoE), Vortex (Maintained PBAoE), Combo (Melee Single Target), Frenzy (Melee PBAoE), Active Offense etc. This determines base damage and energy cost.
After that slot the Fighting Style mod. This determines where the attack comes from and how the animation looks like - head, hands, equipped weapon etc. Weapons with alternate animations may be sold in the cash shop, e.g. dual blades in reverse grip, single handgun using the gangsta sideway grip, single blade using the fencing style and so on.
Then tack on the Element mod, which affects VFX. However, some weapons e.g. pistols, bows, will override projectile VFX to bullets or arrows regardless, although impact VFX may still be affected by element, e.g. Fire bullets and arrows may explode in flames.
Some weapons may be available that are locked to a certain element too, like Flamethrowers, Tesla Guns, Particle Beam Handguns/Rifles, Laser Swords - all very sellable as Cash Shop customization options. Melee attacks will also allow different elements. Element type determines proc effect e.g. Clinging Flames, Chill etc. More practical procs will come with a higher energy cost. Maintains and combos have an innately lower proc chance than charges.
Optionally, pick Synergy mod. This is a warmover from legacy CO that stays to encourage people to take a variety of attacks. Synergy effects include things like +X% increased proc chance, +X% crit severity on Chilled, ignores X% Defense on Clinging Flames etc, so that ideally players will go for a state applier and a state exploiter.
This opens up the way for more variety. We're not locked to an undesirable emanation point for a desired attack anymore *glares at Fire Breath for non-dragons*, and when the power system is designed that way, it means less shoehorning into pick Power X and Y to debuff/self-buff so that you can spam Power Z for uber damage. Instead of being locked into say, Thunderbolt and Lightning Arc or Fire Snake and Ice Blast, you can pick what is your power X and what is your power Y. And if a state is OP it's a trivial enough task to adjust the mod effect.
We could start at 250 points and each level get 5 more. Thus at level 40, we would be similar to a fully matured superhero in the mainstream comics.
Next best, I think, is a suggestion from upthread - from Cyber, I think? - that each character would be allowed to select two power trees, and all subsequent choices would be from those trees. After all, Superman is a flying brick with energy-projector powers - suddenly grabbing a sword or a gun, or wielding magic, wouldn't make any sense for him...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Really man? You cant see why perhaps a man with overwhelmingly powerful psionic powers might choose to bury them deep within only using them for the most dire life and death situations, and otherwise favoring conventional and or advanced weaponry and fighting skills instead?
That was always one of the things I loved most about Grifter he was kind of a refined version of cable to me, a skilled soldier lost from his own time, burdened with power no mortal man should have to carry, and desperate to keep it secret and safe from misuse while fighting a war that can never really be won and will only end with his death.
Then to follow that up he during his travels fell in love with an immortal alien warrior who performed what might best be discribed as an alien mystical ceremony to bind them in blood and shared with him the gift of longevity, and also trained him in skills so secret and deadly he was the first and only man to fully undergo the training, men like alexander the great had failed to make the cut and still managed to change the course of human history.
So we have a character who is a raised street tough and con man, sent to war and trained as a covert special forces solider, experiences exposure to super science chemicals to become gifted with gawd like psi powers, who then gains advanced alien fighting techniques and near agelessness through a otherworldly spiritual ritual. A man who could tear asunder cities with a thought, who chooses to fight as an ordinary man, a man who could spend centuries planning the perfect world conquest choosing to live in the moment eternally.
U wot m8?
That said I cant get behind an idea like that. Being able to give a character almost any kind of power is part of the charm of this game, granted you're paying for freeform. To create a system where that doesn't exist would feel like a step back to some people.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Yeah many powers would have to be banned or heavily restricted. For example killing attacks with no normal defences would be a big no no. Even worse, imagine a multipower with each slot taking a different NND, so that whatever defence the mob had, it could be ignored. Or a toon with attacks useable whilst desolid and who was also desolid all the time? Besides the full set of PnP rules would be very daunting to many first timers. But, I still think a simplified version with no environmental controls or multipowers could work. Maybe a small cost discount could be allowed when you take powers of a similar type, say fire powers, to encourage thematic builds and thus compensate for no ECs.
I did lampshade it in few of my character concepts. Their only superpower is immortality via respawn. Can be killed, but power cosmic will recreate them anyway. :biggrin:
You had a bunch of powers that basically had a range, type, damage, etc.
So, one guy's 2GM was another guy's laser eyes which was another guy's dark tendrils, etc...
After that you just chose an animation and effect to represent it.
So let's just say I wanted to create a hi-tech martial artist? Instead of just launching into a flying kick, he could have boosters on his back that sent him flying. Of it I wanted to make a ninja and use something like 2gM, he could just rapidly hurl shurikens instead.
That is pretty much the Hero System. Mechanical effect and visual effect were separate entities.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Yeah, Infernal Supernatural is a great set for radiation themed heroes. One power is like an actual nuke going off. Ms. Chernobyl is a Freeform herself, and also makes use of several Fire powers and attacks as well as eye beams from Power Armor (all colored green).
One of my character's Nemesis, Poison Lips, also uses Infernal Supernatural as "poison" because, once again, the toxic effect.
The power set names in this game are rather misleading. While they appear to be "meant for a theme" they are versatile enough to be used outside of that theme.
^^^ This, so much this.
All too often people get hung up on the name of the power or the name of the set. Sure there are powers whose appearance pigeon holes them, but others can be pretty much whatever you want them to be.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
I was looking at Valiance, and it's in early EARLY alpha... and it pretty much looks like...
Yeah. We'll be waiting a while.
though i am motivated by compulsive punning to ask if valence was just a shell of a game at this alpha stage.
I figured. I've seen a little on it, and none of it... well, they keep sayin 'It's the spiritual successor!'... but none of these people have real experience.
It looked like early alpha... but like, I can't make a real decision. Nothing much to it. Just the basics.
Honestly, if they're just going to make the same game all over again, I'll pass. However, if they beefed up customization a lot? Improve the graphics? Update the story? I'd be sold.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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We have Dragons as a power, and Two Hi-Pan missions.
I was thinking precisely about typical treasure-hoarding dragons. CO dragons are spirits shaped as dragons at best.
The Celestial Dragon is still freaking awesome, even if it has crazed stalker eyes.
You chopped this up, so I'll try to fix and respond.
Yet we have many, many more Oriental/Fantasy options. This is my point.
I say "I want to see more X", someone goes "You already have that." Yet we have plenty- TONS of oriental and fantasy options for weaponry, and when I say we need something aside from that, I'm pretty much told "This is acceptable and we should have more, STFU".
Oh, no- I've already stated that something is wrong with the fact that the Superhero capital of the United States is overrun with supercriminals, terrorist cells, gangs, demons... the truth is, if I had it to do- Millennium City would be a hub zone. I had this same gripe with City of Heroes as well.
Yes, they do. Is it 50% of their content or more? No. It is not. Let's take the 'big 4' of each. Batman, Superman, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman. One of four. Same with the Avengers- Iron Man, Hawkeye, Captain America, Thor. One of four. I say that's a pretty fair standard.
When I say 'add more other stuff', people assume I'm saying 'magic doesn't belong here'. I'm saying magic should not be as overwhelmingly prevalent as it is in CO. Even CO's setting says it's not out in the open like this.
I'm saying 'add more other stuff, too'. If the overwhelming majority of the game was ninjas and superspies, science fiction, or whatever- I'd say to tone it back and spotlight more. The truth is, magic themes are easier for developers and writers.
People keep saying 'this is an MMORPG'. I say that's fine, but if I wanted a magical character I'd go get one of the many, many magic-infested fantasy games out there. I would like a setting with a more diverse appeal. Adding more magic isn't making it diverse, it's turning it into the other garbage I've been trying to avoid.
At least CoX had a means for you to avoid most of the magic-focused missions (not all, but many).
And according to lore, if I'm not mistaken, she is not openly acknowledged as a 'sorceress', just a 'superhero with strange powers'. She is also an absurdly rare type. One of the Champions is also an extraterrestrial, yet we have, what... two alien races we encounter in the game? If I'm not mistaken Champions has a mountain of alien races and technology source material.
Again, people are assuming I'm saying 'gut it out'. I'm saying 'focus on the other stuff for a bit'. There are plenty of other themes out there, but jumping on the magic and mysticism constantly is just lazy and cheap. You can just hijack something from D&D or [insert mythology] and call it a day.
Now, I have said it in the past- if Cryptic made a fantasy-themed game with this level of customization and based off the Fantasy Hero setting? Yeah, I'd be all over.
You people consistently assume I hate magic, fantasy, mysticism, etc. No, that's not the case. I don't hate pickles but I don't want 2 inch-thick stacks of it on my hamburger with a 1/4 slice of cheese slapped on there. If someone served me that burger and said it was 'balanced with condiments', he'd be unemployed.
One mistake that you and many people make is that you like to go to the "source material" sadley the source material doesn't mean squat here. Which sucks, but this game has already had many things changed verse the P&P lore in horrible ways.
In CO lore Witchcraft has been very open about being a mage. Magic has disappeared from the majority of the new content (yes it is small) and replaced with Tech and Science.
And you are way off! It more like 4 aliens were encounter, yeesh!
Personally I would love to see tons more non-Magical additions. I have been crying for Mechanon since launch. I have just learned that if it is something we really want in game, it will either never be made or done horribly wrong and not in the fashion we wished for.
I would be okay with it as long as the lockboxes were Angry ATM lockboxes